S07.E04: The Spoils of War

[rmontro]

7 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I think it's extremely unlikely that the food she burned was meant to be a plot point by the writers and strikes me as a trivial thing to obsess about.

I don't know, if King's Landing comes under seige (which seems somewhat likely), it could become a factor.

[TaurusRose]

8 hours ago, SeanC said:

It was Drogon.  There's never any indication in the show that it was a set-up, so the onscreen conclusion should stand.

However, I struggle to see this as a particular reason to back the Lannisters over Dany.  They have quite a few dead children on their hands, and those were intentional acts on their part, for the most part.

It was Drogon, but it was an accident.  The dragon was clearly going after a goat or lamb, and the child was accidentally roasted when Drogon cleared the cliff.  So, I'm still Team Dany.

[Colorful Mess]

2 hours ago, ursula said:

Did anyone else laugh out loud at this:

 

"My people will never accept a Southern ruler."

----Jon Targaryen, the King in the North.

 

?

This was just as funny:

"They will, if their king does" - Daenerys Targaryen, expert on Northern politics

[Oscirus]

9 hours ago, stagmania said:

I never thought she came close to being killed. She never seemed in danger of falling off Drogon, and Jaime's spear didn't even get near her before Drogon blasted him.

 

 

9 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

That was Tyrion's argument all along, but I also don't think she came close to being killed even once, let alone a few times.  Drogon was able to keep flying and land even when he was shot.

Not only was jamie close enough to her to make her gasp, but the first scorpion arrow whizzed right past her head. You can see her turn head and acknowledge the shot.

Speaking of  falling off Drogon. How did she become an experienced rider in only four rides? Sounds like a bit of the plot armor to me. 

[MadMouse]

2 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

This was just as funny:

"They will, if their king does" - Daenerys Targaryen, expert on Northern politics

Torrhen "The King who knelt" Stark, the last King in the North.

[Colorful Mess]

1 hour ago, MadMouse said:

Torrhen "The King who knelt" Stark, the last King in the North.

Which is kinda outdated, no? If she watched GoT seasons 2-6 she might have a better sense of what the current realpolitik is: Robb Stark the ACTUAL last KitN, disowned for betraying the North to a "foreign whore," bannermen who refuse to recognize any other monarch, "A Targaryen cant be trusted," the current regent SUPER wary of Targs, and wildlings who now live in the North and kneel to no one. 

I'm sure they'll kneel "freely" when threatened by dragons or walkers though. But not because their king did and certainly not because Jon (half Targ) did. I think his position is more fragile than that at the moment.

[Misplaced]

12 hours ago, spottedreptile said:

I really can't understand the astronomy of all this. Why does the sun take a hike when the WW bring the Winter?

It's also a reflection of the UK in winter -- the series is one long convoluted War of the Roses, after all -- when the sun "rises" at 9 AM and sets at 3.30 PM, if you can see it at all because of the fog and the rain and the clouds.  Well, right up until global warming, anyway.  

Also (I've said this before, elsewhere), he basically stole the whole concept from Sheri Tepper's *Grass* (published in 1989).  Which just annoys me. 

[GrailKing]

4 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

Which is kinda outdated, no? If she watched GoT seasons 2-6 she might have a better sense of what the current realpolitik is: Robb Stark the ACTUAL last KitN, disowned for betraying the North to a "foreign whore," bannermen who refuse to recognize any other monarch, "A Targaryen cant be trusted," the current regent SUPER wary of Targs, and wildlings who now live in the North and kneel to no one. 

I'm sure they'll kneel "freely" when threatened by dragons or walkers though. But not because their king did and certainly not because Jon (half Targ) did. I think his position is more fragile than that at the moment.

I think if anything would make Sansa no longer support him would be this! especially if he does it autocratically.

Now that the people see she is a capable Lady of Winterfell, it be best to give her the facts and let her and Davos do the speeches, and manipulating, and of course Bran is there, Arya can do her non assassin gifts. 

But if he just does it !

[domina89]

10 hours ago, ursula said:

Did anyone else laugh out loud at this:

 

"My people will never accept a Southern ruler."

----Jon Targaryen, the King in the North.

It's even funnier when you realize that Jon was born in the south and everyone knows this...

[WatchrTina]

I was humming "Shape of You" in the shower this morning (I watched Ed Sheeran's version of Carpool Karaoke with James Gordon last night) and I found myself hoping that Ed Sheeren's character -- a Lannister foot-soldier -- is still busy bringing order to the Riverlands and that he did not get roasted alive in the Battle of the Supply Train or the Field of Fire 2.0 or whatever it is we're calling it.

[benteen]

About whether Arya knows about Rickon, as I recall Jon ordered that Rickon was to be put next to Ned in the crypt.  So Arya should have known something. 

Bran's reaction to Rickon would have been interesting before he started doing mushrooms.  He would have taken his death very, very hard.

[ursula]

19 minutes ago, domina89 said:

It's even funnier when you realize that Jon was born in the south and everyone knows this...

Oooh, good one.

Everytime Jon dismisses Dany's claim to the North, he's building a case against himself. I really hope this show does a realistic take on what happens when the Northern Lords find out that they started a war, and lost their Lord Rickon and his heir to "save" his mother but she had willingly run off of her own free will with a married Prince. The story in the North has been "Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna Stark" for so long that it would be a head-twister when the truth comes out.

Meanwhile, isn't there a hint in the books that Littlefinger knew the truth and that he intercepted the ravens that Rhaegar had sent to the Starks explaining the the story? 

[FnkyChkn34]

11 hours ago, ursula said:

Did anyone else laugh out loud at this:

 

"My people will never accept a Southern ruler."

----Jon Targaryen, the King in the North.

 

?

Where is that from?

[Francie]

17 minutes ago, ursula said:

Oooh, good one.

Everytime Jon dismisses Dany's claim to the North, he's building a case against himself. I really hope this show does a realistic take on what happens when the Northern Lords find out that they started a war, and lost their Lord Rickon and his heir to "save" his mother but she had willingly run off of her own free will with a married Prince. The story in the North has been "Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna Stark" for so long that it would be a head-twister when the truth comes out.

Meanwhile, isn't there a hint in the books that Littlefinger knew the truth and that he intercepted the ravens that Rhaegar had sent to the Starks explaining the the story? 

I've long thought that Littlefinger started the rumor that Rhaegar forciably kidnapped Lyanna in order to get hot-blooded Brandon Stark to do exactly what he did.  

As we all know, a rumor can make its way around the world before the truth has time to lace its shoes. 

[MarySNJ]

6 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Where is that from?

The cave scene. 

It is rather ironic, insofar as Jon has no idea that he is factually the Grandson and last living male descendant of a Southern king.  I loved the call backs to Jon's conversations with Mance Rayder. 

[Tikichick]

1 hour ago, WatchrTina said:

I was humming "Shape of You" in the shower this morning (I watched Ed Sheeran's version of Carpool Karaoke with James Gordon last night) and I found myself hoping that Ed Sheeren's character -- a Lannister foot-soldier -- is still busy bringing order to the Riverlands and that he did not get roasted alive in the Battle of the Supply Train or the Field of Fire 2.0 or whatever it is we're calling it.

The director actually spoke about those soldiers in an interview and said that they were not in the battle, but off in the Riverlands.

[FnkyChkn34]

17 minutes ago, MarySNJ said:

The cave scene. 

It is rather ironic, insofar as Jon has no idea that he is factually the Grandson and last living male descendant of a Southern king.  I loved the call backs to Jon's conversations with Mance Rayder. 

Sorry, I meant who actually wrote "Jon Targaryan"?  I knew when he said the quote.

[dragonsbite]

15 hours ago, GrailKing said:

 

All I know, is Sansa and Arya mention No One quite often, Sansa wrg to protection, Arya with training.

 

ooooooooo!  totally forgot that Sansa said "no one can protect me"

[Yokosmom]

Quote

I've long thought that Littlefinger started the rumor that Rhaegar forciably kidnapped Lyanna in order to get hot-blooded Brandon Stark to do exactly what he did.  

I've always assumed that it was Varys, but that Littlefinger knew the truth.  Both had motives to start such a rumor, though.

[crowceilidh]

I thought Sansa looked personally worried by Arya's prowess.  That worried me.

Don't I recall some fairly brave things Bronn did for Tyrion?  He says he's a mercenary and his MO is to act that way, but I've always thought Bronn was more textured than that.

I would like Dany to recognize who it had to be who was jousting towards her and have Drogon pull him out of the water and capture him.

Edited August 10, 2017 by crowceilidh

[Tikichick]

Just now, crowceilidh said:

I thought Sansa looked personally worried by Arya's prowess.  That worried me.

Don't I recall some fairly brave things Bronn did for Tyrion?  He says he's a mercenary and his MO is to act that way, but I've always thought Bronn was more textured than that.

I thought Bronn and Tyrion developed much more of a partnership, a relationship, a trust.  I could understand maybe he and Jamie aren't quite at that level, but this last episode it seemed Bronn before the battle was much less textured overall, more like the way they wrote him in the Sand Snake debacle of a storyline.  Although the Bronn we saw at the banquet last season was clearly all about living the good life and thought he had it made.  Maybe Bronn feels he should be living the life of a noble lord by now.

[YaddaYadda]

2 hours ago, Francie said:

I've long thought that Littlefinger started the rumor that Rhaegar forciably kidnapped Lyanna in order to get hot-blooded Brandon Stark to do exactly what he did.  

As we all know, a rumor can make its way around the world before the truth has time to lace its shoes. 

LF's duel with Brandon is exactly what happened on the Trident between Rhaegar and Robert. I think I would more shocked if his hands are clean and he had nothing to do with what Brandon was told about Lyanna, tbh. And he has been avenging himself. 

Edited August 10, 2017 by YaddaYadda

[iMonrey]

Quote

Sofie Turner's one of the weakest actors in the show

I've often heard that said about Emilia Clarke, but to be fair neither actress is given a lot to work with beyond "look stoic in this scene." The very nature of their characters tend to render them emotionally distant. 

[Macbeth]

1 hour ago, Tikichick said:

I thought Bronn and Tyrion developed much more of a partnership, a relationship, a trust.  I could understand maybe he and Jamie aren't quite at that level, but this last episode it seemed Bronn before the battle was much less textured overall, more like the way they wrote him in the Sand Snake debacle of a storyline.  Although the Bronn we saw at the banquet last season was clearly all about living the good life and thought he had it made.  Maybe Bronn feels he should be living the life of a noble lord by now.

I can understand Bronn's bitterness. They gave him a castle (or potential) and then took it away.  He is getting older - he understands there is a good chance he will probably die for the Lannisters (He doesn't understand he has plot armor).

[Francie]

Quote

 I struggle to find any reason to root for Dany's claim to the iron throne. I am all for the 7 kingdoms being broken up

On this part, I can agree. I back no one single claim to the iron throne. That monstrosity is best destroyed.  If the seven regions – or how many there are once this is all said and done – want to join together as some sort of united government, fine. But I support no one monarchy over another. 

Personally, I don’t see how Dany’s claim to the throne – which is based on “my forefathers ruled this land for 280 years, before being overthrown 20 years ago” is any better than any other person’s.  And where Dany lost me is that she hasn’t expressed one moment of trying to understand and support the country she's hear to conquer.  She didn’t bring boatloads of grain to help its citizens for winter.  Instead, she brought a Dothraki horde, amongst other conquest and military resources. She really is just another spoke in the wheel, trying to take her turn at the top. 

Meanwhile, I’m Team Lannister mainly because I’ve gravitated toward Jaime Lannister’s character. I’m fairly new to GoT. I read the first book years and years ago, and started the second and stopped partway because I found all the characters unlikable. To that point, only Arya held my interest.  On multiple recommendations, I binged watched all 6 seasons last summer. Arya became a favorite character again. But even eclipsing her, for me, is Jaime Lannister. He’s a wonderfully complex character.  (My faves are all over the map -- Jaime, Arya, Davos, and Catelyn are among them, along with Tyrion, Tywin, and Cersei (I don't root for the later three, necessarily, but I love nearly all of their scenes)). 

With Jaime, here we have someone who, without hesitation, pushed a boy out of a window. He murdered his own cousin, brutally, in an escape attempt. He would have killed that passerby who came across Brienne and him – no doubt about it.  At the same point, he risked his own life – and put it in ultimate peril and seeming certain death – to save Brienne. He kept his oath to Catelyn Stark by giving Brienne a Valyrian steel sword and sending her to find Sansa.  He tried to reason with Edmure Tully and only after having his kingslayer reputation thrown in his face did he realize that he needed to use that reputation to get Edmure to capitulate. And Jaime was successful, and ended the siege at Riverrun with nearly no bloodshed (oh, Blackfish, how I’ll miss you).   And he was faced with one of the most difficult choices one could be, while still a teen ager, in choosing between a vow he had made at 15/16 to serve and saving an entire city.  And he's lived with a bad reputation ever since, keeping that part of the vow that doesn't allow him to tell everyone why he did what he did.

So, yeah, that and the powerhouse acting makes me Team Lannister. I'll stake a claim and live on that hill. 

And I see these last two episodes sweeping upwards in an arc for Jaime.  The very uplifting, heroic version of Rains of Castamere was the first tell tale sign. And they framed him as practically Henry V in the Field of Fire II.  He's starting to get the heroic edit.  I think what we may all be seeing is the story of a hero, not told from the beginning, but starting from the lowest point in a character's arc.  

Edited August 10, 2017 by Francie
Because I don't back anyone to take the throne, and not the faceless assassins

[MrsR]

I would have liked it twice if they had let me.

[Tikichick]

13 minutes ago, Macbeth said:

I can understand Bronn's bitterness. They gave him a castle (or potential) and then took it away.  He is getting older - he understands there is a good chance he will probably die for the Lannisters (He doesn't understand he has plot armor).

I can absolutely understand Bronn feeling like he's being strung along.

I also felt there was a lot significance implied in focusing the camera directly on Bronn's bag of gold falling and spilling, and seeing his wanting to go after it and deciding instead he better get moving, and fast, to save his skin.   Given how fixated he was on being rewarded and continuing to press about the castle immediately after Jamie handed him the gold, Bronn's attitude is going to be key at some upcoming point.

[Blonde Gator]

2 hours ago, crowceilidh said:

I thought Sansa looked personally worried by Arya's prowess.  That worried me.

Don't I recall some fairly brave things Bronn did for Tyrion?  He says he's a mercenary and his MO is to act that way, but I've always thought Bronn was more textured than that.

I would like Dany to recognize who it had to be who was jousting towards her and have Drogon pull him out of the water and capture him.

Oooooh!  Nice thought.   Ten uppies if I could for you.

Tyrion knows.  But does anyone else (besides Jaime/Bronn)?  And will Tyrion tell Dany.  Curiouser and curiouser.  This is going to be really good, if they write it well. 

[Tikichick]

12 minutes ago, Francie said:

On this part, I can agree. I back no one single claim to the iron throne. That monstrosity is best destroyed.  If the seven regions – or how many there are once this is all said and done – want to join together as some sort of united government, fine. But I support no one monarchy over another. 

Personally, I don’t see how Dany’s claim to the throne – which is based on “my forefathers ruled this land for 280 years, before being overthrown 20 years ago” is any better than any other person’s.  And where Dany lost me is that she hasn’t expressed one moment of trying to understand and support the country she's hear to conquer.  She didn’t bring boatloads of grain to help its citizens for winter.  Instead, she brought a Dothraki horde, amongst other conquest and military resources. She really is just another spoke in the wheel, trying to take her turn at the top. 

Meanwhile, I’m Team Lannister mainly because I’ve gravitated toward Jaime Lannister’s character. I’m fairly new to GoT. I read the first book years and years ago, and started the second and stopped partway because I found all the characters unlikable. To that point, only Arya held my interest.  On multiple recommendations, I binged watched all 6 seasons last summer. Arya became a favorite character again. But even eclipsing her, for me, is Jaime Lannister. He’s a wonderfully complex character.  (My faves are all over the map -- Jaime, Arya, Davos, and Catelyn are among them, along with Tyrion, Tywin, and Cersei (I don't root for the later three, necessarily, but I love nearly all of their scenes)). 

With Jaime, here we have someone who, without hesitation, pushed a boy out of a window. He murdered his own cousin, brutally, in an escape attempt. He would have killed that passerby who came across Brienne and him – no doubt about it.  At the same point, he risked his own life – and put it in ultimate peril and seeming certain death – to save Brienne. He kept his oath to Catelyn Stark by giving Brienne a Valyrian steel sword and sending her to find Sansa.  He tried to reason with Edmure Tully and only after having his kingslayer reputation thrown in his face did he realize that he needed to use that reputation to get Edmure to capitulate. And Jaime was successful, and ended the siege at Riverrun with nearly no bloodshed (oh, Blackfish, how I’ll miss you).   And he was faced with one of the most difficult choices one could be, while still a teen ager, in choosing between a vow he had made at 15/16 to serve and saving an entire city.  And he's lived with a bad reputation ever since, keeping that part of the vow that doesn't allow him to tell everyone why he did what he did.

So, yeah, that and the powerhouse acting makes me Team Lannister. I'll stake a claim and live on that hill. 

And I see these last two episodes sweeping upwards in an arc for Jaime.  The very uplifting, heroic version of Rains of Castamere was the first tell tale sign. And they framed him as practically Henry V in the Field of Fire II.  He's starting to get the heroic edit.  I think what we may all be seeing is the story of a hero, not told from the beginning, but starting from the lowest point in a character's arc.  

Are you suggesting that Dany should have understood winter is coming and brought "boatloads of grain" from Essos?  I understand the idea she is essentially coming in as a conqueror entitled to do so.  I don't understand where we have had any indication that she should have anticipated winter and the need for boatloads of grain.

[Bill819]

On 8/8/2017 at 11:04 AM, Katsullivan said:

Emilia is not a wooden actress and I dare anyone to show the kind of affection she showed to whatever CGI puppies she carried in her arms in the earlier seasons when the dragons were babies. The show hasn't done Dany's character any favors - they've traded a lot of nuances with big bombastic stage pieces, e.g. her "desert madness" at the end of Dance with Dragons, or how when Dany rides Drogon for the first time, she's saving him not the other way around.  

Emilia has delivered solid gold with the material she's been given. In the last episode alone, we watched her go from giggly with Melisandre, to awed (and slightly horny) with Jon in the cave, to irate and suspicious at Tyrion, then pensive after talking to Jon, to Fire-and-blood at the battle field, to fear when Drogon was hit, to Spite when she nearly took out Bronn, to fear again when Jaimie charged her. And half of those scenes were with her on top of a rocking horse. 

Bravo!!  So true. Emilia is greatly underrated. Glad to see her appreciated. 

[The Kings Foot]

17 hours ago, GrailKing said:

Not sure if it would play out in the books this way since Jon Married her to a Thenn, and can't remember if her hair is reddish or dark.

Alys Karstark in the books bears a resemblance to Arya.

[Francie]

16 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Are you suggesting that Dany should have understood winter is coming and brought "boatloads of grain" from Essos?  I understand the idea she is essentially coming in as a conqueror entitled to do so.  I don't understand where we have had any indication that she should have anticipated winter and the need for boatloads of grain.

Yes, I am absolutely suggesting that if she wants to lead, she should have made an effort to understand the people and land she intends to lead.  You don't think those in Essos know that ravens have flown to state that winter has come in Westeros? Their trade plans would have changed by that point, and she should be aware of it.  She also should have asked her advisers, read a book, sent scouts, etc. to have them tell her what is going on in Westeros, and how they might most need her help.  She knows -- or she should know -- that Westeros has been wracked with internal wars for years, and that they have depleted their own resources. And, yes, if she wanted to be a great leader, she should have come in Margaery Tyrell style and won them over, and given them the people what they want and need. 

Part of the reason I have little sympathy for her is that she's all in conqueror mode, and then she'll be all, "So, what's been going on? What's on the calendar for today?" She brought three cities to Essos to their knees with that attitude. She doesn't deserve another country to act as her petri dish for governing. 

Edited August 10, 2017 by Francie

[GrailKing]

12 minutes ago, The Kings Foot said:

Alys Karstark in the books bears a resemblance to Arya.

Did Jon describe her that way, or someone else?

I can't remember.

[The Kings Foot]

1 minute ago, GrailKing said:

Did Jon describe her that way, or someone else?

I can't remember.

From what i recall its Jon's POV

[Tikichick]

22 minutes ago, Francie said:

Yes, I am absolutely suggesting that if she wants to lead, she should have made an effort to understand the people and land she intends to lead.  YOu don't think those in Essos know that ravens have flown to state that winter has come in Westeros? Their trade plans would have changed by that point, and she should be aware of it.  She also should have asked her advisers, read a book, sent scouts, etc. to have them tell her what is going on in Westeros, and how they might most need her help.  She knows -- or she should know -- that Westeros has been wracked with internal wars for years, and that they have depleted their own resources. And, yes, if she wanted to be a great leader, she should have come in Margaery Tyrell style and won them over, and given them the people what they want and need. 

Part of the reason I have little sympathy for her is that she's all in conqueror mode, and then she'll be all, "So, what's been going on? What's on the calendar for today?"

In ideal circumstances maybe.  Given the turbulence of her life in Essos I think it's a bit of a stretch and likely is more a manifestation of your attitude about the character.  

Everything else aside, can you understand a person who's father was killed, brother was killed, SIL killed, nieces/nephews killed, was herself driven out of her homeland with her brother and had assassins sent after her not having an attitude of, oh hell no, you can't tell me I can't live in my homeland and resume what belonged to my family?  Don't you think a lot of people in her shoes would develop that kind of single-mindedness?

Like I said, view simply that without any other caveats.  Disregard the crazy and cruel father.  Disregard that the people aren't necessarily waiting for their "true queen" to come and rule, etc.  If she singlemindedly fixates on returning to her home and her family's "rightful place" -- and let's say she's successful and is able to rule the seven kingdoms and manages to do so peacefully after taking the throne and rules benevolently.  Is there no room to accept that she is right in her belief that she do so?

If your answer is no, is Cersei entitled to remain on the throne?  If your answer is that no one should be on a throne,period, you may be right.  That may be the overall idea about the game being played.  It also may be a modern, real world idea that can't necessarily be applied to the story here.  Overall I suspect that most commoners in Westeros don't necessarily care who's on the throne.  It probably makes a difference if it's someone like Dany's father, a Joffrey, a Ramsey Bolton, a pre-Qyburn Mountain, etc.  As the audience we can see that Cersei is unlikely to be invested in the wellbeing of her subjects.  Would Margaery as queen have been good or bad?  Quite frankly I think someone of Brienne's character would do a good job on a throne.  Overall I think for the common people it's much as Jon alluded to this week, just more of the same shit in regards to who sits on the throne -- unless they're truly cruel or  sadistic. 

Edited August 10, 2017 by Tikichick
Missing word

[Blonde Gator]

7 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Did Jon describe her that way, or someone else?

I can't remember.

The description of Alys comes from one of Jon Snow's POV chapters, so I'd attribute the description of her looks to him.

Here's her Wiki page from Westeros.org (associated w/GRRM):  http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Alys_Karstark

[Hana Chan]

18 minutes ago, Francie said:

Part of the reason I have little sympathy for her is that she's all in conqueror mode, and then she'll be all, "So, what's been going on? What's on the calendar for today?" She brought three cities to Essos to their knees with that attitude. She doesn't deserve another country to act as her petri dish for governing. 

I can't totally disagree with this. Westeros is, at the moment, very badly broken. It's been broken since the Rebellion in a lot of ways, and Dany arriving with her invading forces is not going to make things better. This is one of the major reasons that while I'm sympathetic to her in a lot of ways, she's still very blind because her arriving in Westeros has nothing to do with trying to bring peace to a war-torn continent. It's all about her taking the throne that she feels is rightfully hers.

And this isn't meant to pit on character against another, but it's the major reason that if someone has to have their butt planted in that ugly-ass chair, it should be Jon. Because he's the only one who's acting in the best interests of the people of Westeros. He's not after it for his own power (the way Cerci is), and he isn't acting like it's owed to him (like Dany). Hell, he wouldn't even want it if it was offered to him. But he'd take it if it would mean unifying the continent against the Night King. And that's what it all is going to boil down to in the end for me. Dany and Cersi (and Sansa and Littlefinger) are still playing the game. Jon has moved beyond the game.

[GrailKing]

1 minute ago, Blonde Gator said:

The description of Alys comes from one of Jon Snow's POV chapters, so I'd attribute the description of her looks to him.

Here's her Wiki page from Westeros.org (associated w/GRRM):  http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Alys_Karstark

Thanks.

[Blonde Gator]

Here is a pretty great "re-cap" of Sunday's Episode 4, in Tweets and pictures, with some totally great stuff thrown in for good measure.  It doesn't take as long as you'd think, but I actually laughed out loud at some of the pictures that popped up.  There are so many people in the GOT fandom who are so creative.  Like this:

 

Enjoy!   https://storify.com/public/templates/slideshow/index.html?src=//storify.com/Axechucker/the-twits-of-war#1

[Wouter]

On 8/8/2017 at 4:29 PM, Katsullivan said:

The more I think about it, the more I feel that 50% of my problem with Sansa is the writing (she should have bloody stayed standing at her wedding to Tyrion...

The circumstances in show and books were different. In the show, Tyrion warned her well in advance and generally was nice to her. In the books, Tyrion sided with his family and only acted on his second thoughts, well into the wedding night. In the show variant, it makes sense that Sansa (who wasn't planning to escape at that point, unlike her book counterpart) would respect Tyrion's feelings just as it makes sense in the books that she would not.

I agree with those who think Sansa was worried about Arya's list, gradually seeing her change from treating it as a joke to realising "she really means this" to "and she can actually pull it off" (but possibly get killed on the way). It's one of the things that made this a very enjoyable episode.

[Tikichick]

2 minutes ago, Wouter said:

The circumstances in show and books were different. In the show, Tyrion warned her well in advance and generally was nice to her. In the books, Tyrion sided with his family and only acted on his second thoughts, well into the wedding night. In the show variant, it makes sense that Sansa (who wasn't planning to escape at that point, unlike her book counterpart) would respect Tyrion's feelings just as it makes sense in the books that she would not.

I agree with those who think Sansa was worried about Arya's list, gradually seeing her change from treating it as a joke to realising "she really means this" to "and she can actually pull it off" (but possibly get killed on the way). It's one of the things that made this a very enjoyable episode.

I kind of think it's possible she may have also been thinking along the lines of -- I used to think Arya was ridiculous not enjoying embroidery or beautiful clothes or caring about going to dances and things like that, but knowing what I know now and seeing what Arya's learned, maybe she wasn't the one who was ridiculous back then.

[MonicaM]

5 hours ago, domina89 said:

It's even funnier when you realize that Jon was born in the south and everyone knows this...

Everyone but Jon.

[Francie]

31 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

a manifestation of your attitude about the character.  

 

"Manifestation of my attitude about the character?"

This isn't haters gonna hate.  Dany didn’t steal my lunch money on the way to the cafeteria, nor try to sit next to my boyfriend during the pep rally. Dany's not a rival to a someone in a pairing I ship.  My "attitude" is my opinion, and it's based on, pretty much in this order:  1) what's on the screen; 2) what the actress does in portraying her; and 3) what's on the page.

Dany, in many respects is an interesting character. She's a scrapper and a fighter.  But, as a show watcher, I cringe at her decisions, especially in these later seasons. I cringe knowing what carnage and destruction she can -- and I feel very likely will -- bring to Westeros. 

I think Dany has been tracked, from the beginning, as a character for whom we are supposed to root. She's the ingenue, but a tomboy as well. She is well meaning.  I can see many fans, especially ones who have watched her for years and especially for ones who were teens and early 20s when they started watching and essentially grew up with her, stepping in her shoes early on and rooting for her.  She made the best out of a bad situation many a times. 

But we're also shown a character who's been cautioned along the way about this claim she has for the throne. Jorah had advised her that the people care about food on the table and not about who sits upon the throne.  She's been shown that being well-meaning is not enough, as she's made bad decision after bad decision because she thinks too linearly ("I'll meet justice with justice").  

What I haven't seen is what she's done with these lessons that had been positive. She aligned herself with people who have pillaged and murdered.  From an analytical point of view, what I see is an anarchist -- she breaks apart established communities and then never sees through the building of the new community. She's tried, but she's left those cities she conquered in Essos in a horrible shape.  So, yes, I have no reservations articulating my criticisms.  

I will say that I've enjoyed most her scenes with Jorah (poor Jorah!) and with Selmy. Her last scene with Selmy, where they talk of Rhaegar and singing in the streets, is one of my favorites. 

[FnkyChkn34]

19 hours ago, Francie said:

 

"Manifestation of my attitude about the character?"

This isn't haters gonna hate.  Dany didn’t steal my lunch money on the way to the cafeteria, nor try to sit next to my boyfriend during the pep rally. Dany's not a rival to a someone in a pairing I ship.  My "attitude" is my opinion, and it's based on, pretty much in this order:  1) what's on the screen; 2) what the actress does in portraying her; and 3) what's on the page.

Dany, in many respects is an interesting character. She's a scrapper and a fighter.  But, as a show watcher, I cringe at her decisions, especially in these later seasons. I cringe knowing what carnage and destruction she can -- and I feel very likely will -- bring to Westeros. 

I think Dany has been tracked, from the beginning, as a character for whom we are supposed to root. She's the ingenue, but a tomboy as well. She is well meaning.  I can see many fans, especially ones who have watched her for years and especially for ones who were teens and early 20s when they started watching and essentially grew up with her, stepping in her shoes early on and rooting for her.  She made the best out of a bad situation many a times. 

But we're also shown a character who's been cautioned along the way about this claim she has for the throne. Jorah had advised her that the people care about food on the table and not about who sits upon the throne.  She's been shown that being well-meaning is not enough, as she's made bad decision after bad decision because she thinks too linearly ("I'll meet justice with justice").  

What I haven't seen is what she's done with these lessons that had been positive. She aligned herself with people who have pillaged and murdered.  From an analytical point of view, what I see is an anarchist -- she breaks apart established communities and then never sees through the building of the new community. She's tried, but she's left those cities she conquered in Essos in a horrible shape.  So, yes, I have no reservations articulating my criticisms.  

I will say that I've enjoyed most her scenes with Jorah (poor Jorah!) and with Selmy. Her last scene with Selmy, where they talk of Rhaegar and singing in the streets, is one of my favorites. 

Just giving this a "like" wasn't enough for me, so I'm quoting and saying - thumbs up.  Dany leaves chaos in her wake and still makes horrible decisions (like burning all the food!) with her self-entitled attitude.  She's no more "entitled" to the throne than anyone else is; so in that respect, she's no better than Cersei and I can't stand both of their senses of extreme arrogance.

Edited August 11, 2017 by FnkyChkn34
grammar is important

[Wouter]

19 hours ago, GrailKing said:

Director's take :http://www.thisisinsider.com/game-of-thrones-director-matt-shakman-spoils-of-war-dragons-stark-reunions-2017-8

Should dis spell some misconceptions.

Interesting, and confirms what many (like SeanC) have been saying from the beginning of the thread. Thanks for the link!

19 hours ago, GrailKing said:

I tend to disagree, watch close, she clearly tells us, her eyes, her hand movements etc., the directors or writers have a hard time with a character as verbally silent as Sansa, almost everything about her is in her thoughts, mannerism and wardrobe, not her voice.

The actress did very well in this episode, since the beginning of this season, really. Last season was difficult because her plot didn't make a lot of sense, most likely due to the show showing her own book storyline together with parts of Jeyne Poole's (and even Alys Karstark') book story.

16 hours ago, GrailKing said:

They're getting Sansa's arc back on point, it's just in Winterfell instead of the Eyrie, maybe she has Royce bring her cousin and their food stores, that in book Sansa knows LF is hiding, maybe she discovers LF hidden cash??

I agree, in a parallel universe where the books would be finished, the equivalent storyline for Sansa may be taking place in the Vale. Not only with Littlefinger buying up the food to sell high later, but also with the various Royces (I wonder if show-Myranda's name was chosen randomly or whether it indicates the book character with the same name will turn on Sansa at some point), Sweetrobyn and I suspect that Arya may also turn up in the Vale. It strikes me that Arya misses Jon in her S7 reunions, while she may be reunited with Sansa in the Vale in the books, while book-Bran could always turn up giving them mysterious (or maybe very clear) visions during their dreams (or when near Heart Trees). Sansa and Littlefinger have their own supporting cast in the Vale, the confrontation between them may be fought out there.

And the role of the Vale as a food exporter must have its importance in the books, with Sansa hopefully being well-placed (after the inevitable fallout with LF) to help the north.

4 hours ago, dragonsbite said:

ooooooooo!  totally forgot that Sansa said "no one can protect me"

There was a Bran vision in book one that placed Arya and Sansa together with the Hound, Jaime and the undead Mountain. I could see Arya being Sansa most important protector, should it somehow come to a (close) confrontation with Cersei. S7 has been hinting that Sansa and Cersei aren't finished with one another, allthough at this moment it's hard to see why show-Sansa would come south from Winterfell (or be forced or taken from Winterfell, somehow).

Edited August 10, 2017 by Wouter

[Tikichick]

9 minutes ago, Francie said:

 

"Manifestation of my attitude about the character?"

This isn't haters gonna hate.  Dany didn’t steal my lunch money on the way to the cafeteria, nor try to sit next to my boyfriend during the pep rally. Dany's not a rival to a someone in a pairing I ship.  My "attitude" is my opinion, and it's based on, pretty much in this order:  1) what's on the screen; 2) what the actress does in portraying her; and 3) what's on the page.

Dany, in many respects is an interesting character. She's a scrapper and a fighter.  But, as a show watcher, I cringe at her decisions, especially in these later seasons. I cringe knowing what carnage and destruction she can -- and I feel very likely will -- bring to Westeros. 

I think Dany has been tracked, from the beginning, as a character for whom we are supposed to root. She's the ingenue, but a tomboy as well. She is well meaning.  I can see many fans, especially ones who have watched her for years and especially for ones who were teens and early 20s when they started watching and essentially grew up with her, stepping in her shoes early on and rooting for her.  She made the best out of a bad situation many a times. 

But we're also shown a character who's been cautioned along the way about this claim she has for the throne. Jorah had advised her that the people care about food on the table and not about who sits upon the throne.  She's been shown that being well-meaning is not enough, as she's made bad decision after bad decision because she thinks too linearly ("I'll meet justice with justice").  

What I haven't seen is what she's done with these lessons that had been positive. She aligned herself with people who have pillaged and murdered.  From an analytical point of view, what I see is an anarchist -- she breaks apart established communities and then never sees through the building of the new community. She's tried, but she's left those cities she conquered in Essos in a horrible shape.  So, yes, I have no reservations articulating my criticisms.  

I will say that I've enjoyed most her scenes with Jorah (poor Jorah!) and with Selmy. Her last scene with Selmy, where they talk of Rhaegar and singing in the streets, is one of my favorites. 

I don't think Dany has been tracked from the beginning as a character for whom we are supposed to root.  I've been following her for nearly 20 years now.  The jury is and has been most decisively out on Dany's prospects in my mind (and quite often I think in hers as well).  We've seen her with good intentions many times in Essos, yet either unable or unwilling to find a solution to the problems that emerge when she bring socio economic change to city after city.   Which also brings the question of, where was she going to get boatloads of grain to take to Westeros?

Yes, she's been cautioned many times.  I can entirely see where someone with her family history and experience would be convinced she must retake the throne in Westeros in order to restore what should have been, to the point she cannot see that simply by her regaining the throne and having good intentions to not be like her father doesn't mean things will work out swimmingly and people won't get hurt.   IMO she's blinded to anything beyond -- I must take the throne and right all the wrongs.  It's not that simple, but I think where the Iron Throne is concerned she cannot see it.  Somehow in her mind it will right the world again and everyone will be the better for it, and those who aren't were simply her evil enemies who deserve what they get.   

By the same token I can see where Cersei's experiences have shaped her to be convinced she is right to seize power as well.  Unfortunately for Cersei her experiences have distinctly shaped her to have zero empathy from the start.  Prospects for her subjects are dire.  She sees no problem at all with aligning herself with Qyburn and the Mountain.  She's looking at being on the throne with even bigger blinders than Dany.  She sees no reason to have any concern beyond her own interests of staying in power. 

Neither one should rule IMO.  I do have to agree with Jon's assessment, Dany is better than Cersei in that she has some concern that her people are well.  I don't think she has the abilities to back it up, but at least she has a spark of empathy.

[Blonde Gator]

10 minutes ago, Wouter said:

There was a Bran vision in book one that placed Arya and Sansa together with the Hound, Jaime and the undead Mountain. I could see Arya being Sansa most important protector, should it somehow come to a (close) confrontation with Cersei. S7 has been hinting that Sansa and Cersei aren't finished with one another, allthough at this moment it's hard to see why show-Sansa would come south from Winterfell (or be forced or taken from Winterfell, somehow).

I got the distinct impression that Sansa is one of the "things" Cersei informed Tycho Nestoris (Braaviosi banker) that she "wanted to get back-ah".  (Lena Hedy's over-pronunciation of her words this season is really starting to bug the *&$^% out of me).  The show-runners should give her a skunk dye job on that short wig, and call Cersei "Cruella" already!

[GrailKing]

15 minutes ago, Wouter said:

but also with the various Royces (I wonder if show-Myranda's name was chosen randomly or whether it indicates the book character with the same name will turn on Sansa at some point)

Same name,same MO-Myranda is in love with the guy Sansa's to marry, and in both mediums Sansa /Alaynne is aware.

15 minutes ago, Wouter said:

S7 has been hinting that Sansa and Cersei aren't finished with one another, allthough at this moment it's hard to see why show-Sansa would come south from Winterfell (or be forced or taken from Winterfell, somehow).

All she needs is 1 or 2 good men to go North. Also it could be Brieene, since Jamie has only one good hand.

Edited August 10, 2017 by GrailKing

[Tikichick]

4 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Same name,same MO-Myranda is in love with the guy Sansa's to marry, and in both mediums Sansa /Alaynne is aware.

All she needs is 1 or 2 good men to go North.

Yes, we do know that Arya thinks she needs better guards.

[Francie]

25 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

I do have to agree with Jon's assessment, Dany is better than Cersei in that she has some concern that her people are well.  I don't think she has the abilities to back it up, but at least she has a spark of empathy.

One thing I've noted this season is the parallels between Dany and Cersei. Both claim a right to rule. Both look to obliterate the other. Someone in another thread posted that Dany really has no choice but go big (conquer Westeros) or go home (die).  While I personally think that had Dany stayed in Essos at this point, nothing would have been done given what little consideration Cersei had of her*, this ‘go big or go home’ sentiment can be applied to Cersei. It’s conquer all her enemies or die.  Both have used WMD, one in the form of wildfire, the other dragons.  Both have a Lannister brother trying to temper their actions.  Both are even dressed in black.

I mildly disagree with Jon. Chaos is chaos. Destruction is destruction. A family wiped out by starvation or a mother who just had her son incinerated to ashes is not going to care whether the perpetrator was well-meaning or not or whether they had a "greater good" in mind. 

*And certainly those circumstances could've changed should Cersei have gained control and stabilized Westeros and decided to turn her attention to Dany.  

Edited August 10, 2017 by Francie