S13.E07: Week 7: Switzerland

[comosedice]

So sweet that Peter was there for his boy Dean and came through with the crisp white shirt for his "Sunday Best" date. They can at least leave the show with a few good friendships.

[dleighg]

Just now, comosedice said:

So sweet that Peter was there for his boy Dean and came through with the crisp white shirt for his "Sunday Best" date. They can at least leave the show with a few good friendships.

I missed that-- so that was Peter's shirt?

[Madding crowd]

Peter has a sense of humor, you could see a little in the bit at the end. I think he is trying to spend his few minutes with her trying to talk, but anything less than full on French kissing looks boring by comparison.

[Ohwell]

37 minutes ago, weightyghost said:

Edited to add - one thing that came out last night that would bug me if I were a man trying to date Rachel, she turns 'lawyer' way too easily. It's one thing when it's funny when she's calling Demario out but when you're trying to get a man to open up (aka Dean date) and you start to grill him like he's on the stand and not seeing how clearly uncomfortable he is, you need to take a step back 

Agreed.  I felt for Dean and that was uncomfortable to watch.

[comosedice]

3 minutes ago, MakeMeLaugh said:

The cardboard cutout has a better personality.

Eh, I love what I've seen so far of Peter. His interactions with Rachel and Dean are what have me tuning in weekly. Cardboard cutouts don't do it for me like they do for others.

3 minutes ago, dleighg said:

I missed that-- so that was Peter's shirt?

Yup. Dean mentioned it on Twitter and said he spilled coffee on it.

[Wings]

9 minutes ago, Madding crowd said:

Peter has a sense of humor, you could see a little in the bit at the end. I think he is trying to spend his few minutes with her trying to talk, but anything less than full on French kissing looks boring by comparison.

He even said as much one time.  "We have so much ground to cover,"  when she was trying to get a kiss. 

[Ohwell]

55 minutes ago, HelloPenguin said:

A white person criticizing a black man from Baltimore for speaking in black vernacular- I see race in that. (And sorry if I've misperceived your ethnicity.) Remember that "wichu" is a common and acceptable way to combine "with you" that is yes, particular to black vernacular. Not trying to make this seem as a personal attack, I just see the criticism for Eric speaking in a very normal way to be confusing.

I can't "prove" what race I am over the internet, and it doesn't matter anyway, but If it'll make you feel any better, my right eye twitched when Peter said "Rachel and I's".

[JudyObscure]

8 hours ago, fib said:

Eric's language is no different in nature than some of the people who have been on the show from the deep deep south.  It is a regional way of speaking.  It is not polished, but it reflects where and how he was raised and the way people speak there.  Im fine with the fact he doesnt code switch to hide his upbringing.  IMHO, If you didnt have a problem with Raven's arkansas-isms but you are shocked at Eric's Baltimore-isms, it might be worth reflecting on your biases.  

 I grew up in West Virginia and went to school with kids who spoke perfectly and kids who said things like, "Hit already done rained twiced this yar."  That doesn't make it a regional dialect, it makes it really poor grammar.    Some still talk that way and others went to college, or just paid attention to television, and learned to speak better. Regional dialect has nothing to do with grammar but with words used.  "Fixing to" instead of "getting ready to," is not bad grammar, it's a regional word choice.  "Ain't," is bad grammar all over the country.

Eric doesn't pronounce his "th," sound.  That's a common problem with children and it's why my son's Ohio  kindergarten teacher had a puppet called Thelma Thumb so they could all work on it.  It's a real disservice to people who live in the south to say that they all use bad grammar and that Eric's problems are "southern."  People in Chicago and New York are often criticized for saying "dese and dose," for these and those.  Eric should work on the diction he brags about in his book.  Claiming that he's being authentic or not "code switching," by keeping all his bad habits is just an excuse.  "I'm in love witch you," is not a Baltimore-ism, it's just wrong.

Quote

 

 

Edited July 11, 2017 by JudyObscure

[Kira53]

21 hours ago, chocolatine said:

Did you guys notice that she wasn't wearing them on the Peter date? Her own lashes looked really good, so that makes her choice of drag queen falsies at all other times even more WTF.

I'm sad that AJ didn't get to go on the day trip to his home country. BTW, that's the thing I love most about Europe, the easy country-hopping.

Another thing about Europe is that cobblestones are a bitch to walk on in high heels. My feet were hurting in sympathy watching Rachel traipse around Geneva in her five-inch stilettos.

Did anyone else think that Bryan's last girlfriend breaking up with him because of his mom was a *huge* red flag? I can't believe Rachel didn't ask more questions when he said that.

So "not giving all of his love" is a pattern with Peter. I highly doubt he'll change in time for the FRC.

Who is AJ?  Someone mentioned him before can't figure out who that is referring to.

 

21 hours ago, catrice2 said:

Nothing,I'm just inferring from what he said about not having great role models, seemed to describe a  difficult neighborhood, etc. I'm just projecting that he did not attend the best schools growing up, or if he did there was no one there making sure he took advantage of his education.

  Hey, sue me. I get bored and I start making up backstories for everyone because it is more interesting than what I am hearing and seeing on screen. 

 Eric used some very poor grammar over and over during  his part of the group date.

"All of the men in my family was in the streets."  " I done seen friends in the projects who don't have clothes for school, who don't have sneakers. I done seen family members getting high.   I done seen abusive relationships.  I done seen friends I grew up with killed in the streets."

I thought Eric spoke very sincerely and I felt very sorry for the life that he had to overcome. I admire him for what has been able to do for himself given the circumstances of his childhood. When I was younger I would have tried to save Eric.  Hell, I did it twice with disastrous results.   Now that I'm older and mature I would really avoid making a quick choice of someone who has experienced as much damage as Eric, even though he appears to have risen above it.  But at least both my rescues were well spoken.  One was even a highly educated physician with an engineering degree  from highly prestigious Ivy League schools and then earned.  MBA but he came from such a terrible background  that serious drugs and alcohol became a problem for him.  I can't see Rachel picking a person with both Bad grammar and a bad background.  Someone who's never seen a healthy relationship is going to have a very hard time having a healthy relationship. I don't mean that Eric can never get there, but it takes time.  I wish him well.  I do believe that Eric has grown tremendously from this experience and someone will come into his life to helping make it even better.  

As an African-American, I selfishly wish that Rachel was going on a home visit with a nice upper-class black guyso that everybody would just see the way a lot of people of black people live in nice houses with good grammar and wide world experience and great jobs.  Instead we're going to see poverty-stricken Baltimore and crazy guru daddy from Dean's house. Probably highly entertaining.  Some of the black guys that she was attracted to that showed  her no heat at all, are apparently from some of those great backgrounds that we won't get to see.  The Martha's Vineyard/Sag Harbour set of old money.  Visit them at their summer home.  BTW, we had a ski house.

Edited July 12, 2017 by Kira53
Spelling and missing words. Working on an IPad.

[Ms Blue Jay]

Why is AJ, indeed!

I believe that "AJ" is Adam Junior, aka Adam's ventriloquist dummy, aka many posters' favourite character on this show.

Dean is so hot.  He's probably too young to be the new Bachelor, but I'm going to miss him when he's off my screen.  He should be an actor.

Edited July 11, 2017 by Ms Blue Jay

[alannaofdoom]

This episode was 80% filler. It was obvious from night one that Bryan, Peter, and Dean would be the final three. The group date was just a waste of time to winnow down the three also-rans to one lucky also-ran. Hot tip, producers: if you'd spent the last several episodes on anything other than Lee and his bullshit, maybe we would actually know who Matt and Adam are. Like, have we ever even seen either of them talking to Rachel? 

Also, whyyyyyyy did they plan a date in which two people will sit on a glacier in the middle of a light snowstorm, buffeted by icy winds and visibly shivering?!

Honestly the most interesting thing in this episode is the previews for next week. DEAN'S FATHER IN A PURPLE TURBAN?!?!?!? I cannot wait. 

Edited July 12, 2017 by alannaofdoom
typos are embarrassing

[MakeMeLaugh]

36 minutes ago, Kira53 said:

...As an African-American, I selfishly wish that Rachel was going on a home visit with a nice upper-class black guy so that everybody would just see the way a lot of people of black people live in nice houses with good grammar and wide world experience and great jobs.  Instead we're going to see poverty-stricken Baltimore and crazy guru daddy from Dean's house. Probably highly entertaining.  Some of the black guys that she was attracted to that show with her no heat at all, apparently from some of those great background that we won't get to see.  The Martha's Vineyard/Sag Harbour set of old money.  Visit them at their summer home.  ...

I am not African-American, but I live in the Chicago area and the news this year is so sadly full of poverty-stricken areas and the family members of victims of violence and gangs. I too was looking forward to seeing real middle- and upper-class accomplished black men (like Rachel, but guys :)), like my kids' college and work friends (yeah, I'm old) to introduce a little normalcy and understanding. Some of the guys she sent home were those guys; I can't believe we saw them all leave before hometowns. I like Eric and hope we see his digs and work and friends.

Re Peter--I was on Team Peter from Day One, but I think he is a Luke--looks great on paper, recruited to be the next Bachelor, so maybe not overextending himself for this "prize," and imo his personality is fading fast for me, hence my cardboard cutout comment :). We all know how that turned out for Luke--pray Nick stays engaged until the next Bachelor is announced!

Edited July 11, 2017 by MakeMeLaugh

[Wings]

49 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Why is AJ, indeed!

I believe that "AJ" is Adam Junior, aka Adam's ventriloquist dummy, aka many posters' favourite character on this show.

Dean is so hot.  He's probably too young to be the new Bachelor, but I'm going to miss him when he's off my screen.  He should be an actor.

He is adorable but not too young.  He is 26, I met my husband when I was 24 and he was 23 and married 2 years later after living together.  We were married for 40 years. 

[Catronia]

Regarding Eric -- He would have scared me right off with his talk about how he's never been this open and calm before, and it's all because of Rachel. I can't remember the exact conversation, but he said he takes care of people, and she asked him "who takes care of you?" He responded "you do" and went on to talk about all he needs is for Rachel to take care of him and nurture him.

I don't think Rachel was interested in raising Kenny's (very mature) little girl, and I really don't think she should sign on to be Eric's mommy.

[chocolatine]

1 hour ago, Kira53 said:

Who is AJ?  Someone mentioned him before can't figure out who that is referring to.

 

1 hour ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I believe that "AJ" is Adam Junior, aka Adam's ventriloquist dummy, aka many posters' favourite character on this show.

That's the one! Apparently he's French, so I thought it was a missed opportunity to not bring him on the day trip to France.

[Suzysite]

Quote

I would love Eric as the next Bachrlir

Nooooo!  I would have to cover my ears every time he spoke.   It's not a black thing, a southern thing (is Baltimore really southern?), or a whatever thing...it's lazy.  I cringe at poor grammar and lazy pronunciation from anyone.   Anyone.  

The next Bachelor gig is most likely Peter's anyway.   He's not exciting, but I have a hunch he will get decent ratings.

[Sir RaiderDuck OMS]

Regarding grammar and accent: Part of the reason (IMHO) people are taken aback by Eric's grammar and speech patterns is because the other African-Americans on the show (DeMario, Josiah, Diggy, Kenny, etc) all spoke well and had very good diction. Eric's speech patterns are no surprise to anyone who's ever known minorities from the inner city (or watched Boyz n the Hood, Menace 2 Society, etc) but they are different than what you normally hear on American television.

As for the dates: Bryan is currently head and shoulders ahead of the rest, as proven by Rachel buying those matching expensive-ass watches. Unless his Hometown Date is a disaster, he's her pick and Peter is the next Bachelor. I'd also expect Rachel, who is obviously very comfortable with her body and her sexuality, to make full use of the Fantasy Suite with Bryan, Peter and probably Dean.

[HelloPenguin]

3 hours ago, Kira53 said:

Who is AJ?  Someone mentioned him before can't figure out who that is referring to.

 

 Eric used some very poor grammar over and over during  his part of the group date.

"All of the men in my family was in the streets."  " I done seen friends in the projects who don't have clothes for school, who don't have sneakers. I done seen family members getting high.   I done seen abusive relationships.  I done seen friends I grew up with killed in the streets."

I thought Eric spoke very sincerely and I felt very sorry for the life that he had to overcome. I admire him for what has been able to do for himself given the circumstances of his childhood. When I was younger I would have tried to save Eric.  Hell, I did it twice with disastrous results.   Now that I'm older and mature I would really avoid making a quick choice of someone who has experienced as much damage as Eric, even though he appears to have risen above it.  But at least both my rescues were well spoken.  One was even a highly educated physician with an engineering degree  from highly prestigious Ivy League schools and then earned.  MBA but he came from such a terrible background  that serious drugs and alcohol became a problem for him.  I can't see Rachel picking a person with both Bad grammar and a bad background.  Someone who's never seen a healthy relationship is going to have a very hard time having a healthy relationship. I don't mean that Eric can never get there, but it takes time.  I wish him well.  I do believe that Eric has grown tremendously from this experience and someone will come into his life to helping make it even better.  

As an African-American, I selfishly wish that Rachel was going on a home visit with a nice upper-class black guyso that everybody would just see the way a lot of people of black people live in nice houses with good grammar and wide world experience and great jobs.  Instead we're going to see poverty-stricken Baltimore and crazy guru daddy from Dean's house. Probably highly entertaining.  Some of the black guys that she was attracted to that showed  her no heat at all, are apparently from some of those great backgrounds that we won't get to see.  The Martha's Vineyard/Sag Harbour set of old money.  Visit them at their summer home.  BTW, we had a ski house.

Sorry, as a Hispanic woman and writing teacher who has encountered all sorts of people from different backgrounds, I'm appalled. Also, the use of "done" to indicate the recent past is a standard, documented characteristic of black vernacular. 

[fib]

3 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

It's a real disservice to people who live in the south to say that they all use bad grammar and that Eric's problems are "southern."

Fwiw, I said the exact opposite.  

I'll leave that there, but I recommend you go back and read what I said because it was neither insulting to Southerners, nor dismissive of regional dialects.  And "fixin' to" is not proper grammar.  

I also think that Failing to completely change the way you speak, particularly when you are in a relaxed environment as Eric seems to be with Dean and Peter or with Rachel, is not a sign of a personal failing.  For one, it really sounds like his access to resources growing up was really very very bad.   He may be able to speak "properly", in the right situation, but I agree that if he can't, thats not a personal failing.  People like Eric, with limited family support, terrible schools, broken communities, etc? They are killing it to be functioning adults with steady jobs and college degrees.  I dont care if he speaks the way I do. And I didnt care that Raven didnt speak the way I do either.  

Lastly, there is a mix with Eric on what is cultural and what is regional, but i will say that a number of the things complained about on this thread? Common no matter what your race is up and down the east coast in old cities like Boston, New York, and  Baltimore. But no one called Gia Allemand ignorant for having a bunch of regionalisms.  

Edited July 12, 2017 by fib
Ironically, correcting grammar

[ridethemaverick]

1 hour ago, HelloPenguin said:

Sorry, as a Hispanic woman and writing teacher who has encountered all sorts of people from different backgrounds, I'm appalled. Also, the use of "done" to indicate the recent past is a standard, documented characteristic of black vernacular. 

This. I was going to mention BEV but I figured the complainers wouldn't know what it was or care to learn. 

[McManda]

49 minutes ago, ridethemaverick said:

This. I was going to mention BEV but I figured the complainers wouldn't know what it was or care to learn. 

Doesn't BEV come shares a history with slave culture and slave trade? I could see one being uncomfortable with it on that basis alone and honestly, if I made that connection I don't know if I would want the presentation of myself to have that association. Just my personal opinion, of course. I wouldn't want the way I speak to be seen as a person personal limitation.

The way of speaking isn't incorrect, but for better or worse, the connotation that it holds - a lower socioeconomic status, a less educated background, racially charged politics - would be reasons number one through three why I would choose to not use it.

I don't want to deny someone their culture or their heritage. That's a personal decision. But I do believe that one has to be willing to accept the implications and the results of those decisions - or put be willing to put in the work to change the assumptions thereof.

I personally don't see anything wrong with Eric, other than I'm annoyed by his current yes-man attitude. He seems like a genuinely nice but relatively boring guy, and that's all I'm really concerned about. For me there's no real right or wrong answer about his speech. It's like having a personal preference for dark hair or beards. I wouldn't necessarily date somebody that speaks the way he does (though admittedly I've never been in that situation so I don't know for sure), but I don't think that makes him dumb or a bad guy. I'd still hang out with him.

[fib]

9 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

My understanding is one major difference between Andi and Rachel is that Andi hadn't actually had much work experience as a lawyer when she appeared on Juan Pablo's season and so she just quickly ditched it for her faux Sex and the City life in New York. Rachel has apparently legitimately been working for a few years at her firm. But yes, since none of these people really come on this show solely for love, I won't be surprised to see her move on to something more entertainment wise. I don't see her living off shilling like Amanda though. Not that she won't ever do it but I don't see that being her sole source of income like Amanda because it's likely all Amanda is "skilled" at. 

Also, Andi was a junior prosecutor.  Ie, it could really hurt her ability to do her job if defendants with good lawyers could prove they didnt get a fair trial because of her "star power" in front of a jury.  

Rachel, by comparison, is a defense litigator in a civil litigation firm.  Having "star power" can help her bring in  clients to her firm, and help her make partner faster.  If, that is, she handles herself well.  I sort of feel like the Demario thing really worked to her advantage on this front - she was able to cut through the bull, keep a cool head, and smash the bad guy to smithereens.  Also,  the cache' of being the first black bachelorette? Thats a pretty big to do, as evidenced by how much support she has gotten from Hollywood types this season.  This could open up the ability ot appear on Court TV or Local News, etc, when they need a legal expert.  That could really help her firm with free exposure.  

I think she will probably stick with Law, though I think she will probably shift focus to a heavy PR role. 

[catrice2]

14 hours ago, waving feather said:

Good news, @dirtypop90! TPTB decided to be kind and released the deleted scene of the jealousy over the watch and OMG it is delicious. Why wasn't this kept in the main episode? It is 10x more entertaining than whatever they showed. It's like Bryan is trying to be low-key about it but also not really and all the other guys are trying to act happy for him but seething with jealousy. It's amazing.

Deleted Scene: Bryan's Date Details Make the Guys Jealous

Do they do this every season? Does the lead by one of the contestants a gift? I think that's stupid because why would you buy matching watches for you and somebody and then expect the other men in the house to be ready to get down on one knee for you? that's crazy.  If you have clearly shown them that you are way more invested in one relationship and one person to the point of buying a symbol why would you be surprised that any of them would be hesitant to take you home, expose you to their families and certainly propose to you?  Nowhat if this is a common thing on the show I guess I understand but otherwise I don't get it.   it's just my personal opinion but Rachel is just as annoying to me as the men. I know it was also probably producer driven but still the total concept is just stupid.  Brian and Peter are getting helicopters,watches and private planes and poor Anthony got a horse pooping down the street.  I wonder if the lead decides who they want for what date. What did Eric get?

Edited July 12, 2017 by catrice2

[catrice2]

For the Long Haul who knows but for short-term Brian's mother will be just fine with Rachel. After all her son gets television time gets to go to events and all kinds of freebies and attention.   It will probably  get her attention and Elevate her status in her community. It Rachel didn't come with all that yeah I think there would be a big problem, but this is just a stepping stone to a better life for her son so she'll be alright . The big question is if they are that close I really don't see Brian moving away from her. I know it's Brian with the Y but I do talk-to-text because I'm too lazy to type about this show and go back and fix all the errors.

[Irlandesa]

I find the discussion of proper grammar and pronunciation fascinating.  I do think there is both a race and class component to what is considered "proper pronunciation" and "proper grammar" in that the original rules of prescriptive English grammar were written by educated English white men who set out to show that the English language has as many rules as Latin.  As a result, we ended up with some silly rules based in the Latin language that will lead us to create unnecessarily confusing sentences in an effort to avoid splitting an infinitive just because it's "proper" grammar.  While there are now both prescriptivist scholars (tell how they think it should be) and descriptivst scholars (explain how English is actually used), there still may be homogeneity in the class represented in the language authorities like dictionaries and style guides.

So much of how we speak a language is based on how we originally heard it and keep hearing it.  This can be true even after we learn the "proper rules"--if they are ever learned.  From what I understand, sentence mapping and language arts aren't quite as popular as they used to be.  Eric has apparently overcome so much to get where he is and yet it's like he's expected to do more such as adapt a new standard of speaking.  I've learned other languages and I don't think I will ever get past speaking them with heavy accents.  It's not easy, especially in casual conversation or when emotions are high. Besides, even though I'm not really familiar with AVE, I've had no problem understanding him.  In fact, I've grown to appreciate him in ways I didn't expect after his initial "Rachel doesn't love me" whine fest. I don't think communication, as long as he's sober and not too worked up, is an issue.

All this is not to say that I'm above judging.  I do judge.  People in my region use "I seen" all the time and it's like nails on a chalkboard to me.  I think people with a posh English accent are the smartest people ever.  I'm susceptible. 

And I don't think being educated is bad.  In fact, I really hate anti-intellectualism/education sentiment.  I think even standardization has its place. I'm just trying to be more open minded and less snobby towards non-standard because those people who use "seen"?  It's a regional thing, apparently, and they're not dumb.  And Eric has proven to be kind of perceptive and fun. 

Plus, isn't the whole point of American English to bastardize the Queen's English?

Edited July 12, 2017 by Irlandesa

[violet and green]

I am a sucker for a dog sled. Well, a dog. Can't wait to see Copper again! Loved that dog sled date - and the moment in the helicopter where Peter innocently said, Hey, isn't that a dog sled? and she tried to cover his eyes, as it was supposed to be a surprise.

I think Peter is sincere. I hope he's the one. Or too young Dean. (But then again I'd like either Pete or Dean to be the next Bach.... so it's a win-win if she chooses Bryan instead. Well, win-win for me and lose-lose for her!) Eric, no. And Bryan makes me dry-retch.

[waving feather]

3 hours ago, catrice2 said:

Do they do this every season? Does the lead by one of the contestants a gift? I think that's stupid because why would you buy matching watches for you and somebody and then expect the other men in the house to be ready to get down on one knee for you? that's crazy.  If you have clearly shown them that you are way more invested in one relationship and one person to the point of buying a symbol why would you be surprised that any of them would be hesitant to take you home, expose you to their families and certainly propose to you?  Nowhat if this is a common thing on the show I guess I understand but otherwise I don't get it.   it's just my personal opinion but Rachel is just as annoying to me as the men. I know it was also probably producer driven but still the total concept is just stupid.  Brian and Peter are getting helicopters,watches and private planes and poor Anthony got a horse pooping down the street.  I wonder if the lead decides who they want for what date. What did Eric get?

They don't do it every season but there were similar Cinderella dates in the past seasons (usually on the Bachelor) where the date receives a necklace or bracelet that they get to keep. But I don't remember ever having the lead and one of the contestants buying matching his & hers items. And both Bryan and Rachel have been wearing their watches after the show. Hm. 

I loved that dog sled date, and that Glacier looks majestic, up until the point where they just left Peter and Rachel sitting in the middle of nowhere freezing their asses off. That didn't look enjoyable at all and they could barely talk because the wind was so cold. I hope they didn't spend too long there. 

[LennieBriscoe]

dirtypop90, Are those lawyers' "uneducated" wives otherwise known as "Trophy Second Wives"? (Channeling Betty Broderick here, heh.)

Rachel's social milieu is "athletes and rappers" (I presume that means mega-bucks and mega-partying)? In that case, I don't see her marrying any of these bachelors.

ETA this PSA:  I highly recommend the new TNT show "Will." :-)

Edited July 12, 2017 by LennieBriscoe

[JudyObscure]

7 hours ago, ridethemaverick said:

Also, the use of "done" to indicate the recent past is a standard, documented characteristic of black vernacular. 

Well you done learnt it wrong.  "Did," indicates the recent past just as well, it's not a new urban word, it's a verb tense.  I heard, "He done it,"  a hundred times, along with double negatives, "I seen,"  and countless other odd and incorrect grammar variations as I grew up  in Appalachia.  It was always by poor whites of Scottish descent. 

This idea that bad grammar is unique to black people is the most racist thing I've heard in a long time.  It's like something you would expect from a KKK member.    Come on!  It's not "black vernacular," it's the language of the uneducated and has nothing to do with the amount of melanin in the skin. Anyone, whether from the urban intercity or the rural hollows, can grow up speaking that way.  If they don't want to change, that's their right, but they should know that it will handicap them when looking for top level jobs.  Standard grammar is not "talking white," it's the language of education and success.

As for "Why didn't we criticize Raven or Gina?"  I can't remember how they talked, but we've been complaining about the misuse of  things like, "Her and I went" since TV message boards have been in existence. We've done it so much it's become a drinking game!  This is just the only time someone became all defensive about it. 

[fib]

24 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

This idea that bad grammar is unique to black people is the most racist thing I've heard in a long time.  It's like something you would expect from a KKK member.  

Youre the onlyperson saying this.  Or anything close.  

Bad grammar is common (especially on this show).   But there is linguistic acceptance of the language patterns we have heard Eric use and the way some urban Black people speak.  there is also acceptance of several specific appalachian dialects.  What we are saying is that the way Eric speaks? Its legit, accepted by linguists, and that if you find his language a lot more offensive than some of the other contestants on the show, you might want to think about why. And that calling him lazy, uneducated, etc? Its coded.

[hyacinth]

haha, I was drinking my favorite boxed Pinot Grigio while I watched the show and I didn't even notice Eric's grammar.   

I grew up with a strict mother who taught english and I always lived in affluent suburbs, but my grandparents on one side were dirt poor tenant farmers and had some bad grammar.   They were in their 40s (!) when I was born and we spent a lot of very merry time with them.   I still say "ain't" every once and awhile, surprising everyone.    To me, it still seems normal.  It's not easy getting rid of childhood vernacular! 

Edited July 12, 2017 by hyacinth

[JudyObscure]

3 minutes ago, fib said:

And that calling him lazy, uneducated, etc?

Where did I call Eric lazy?  He wrote a book and put himself through college, that's anything but lazy in my book. I did say that bad grammar is a sign of lack of education and it is, in anyone, of any color.  Not that you can't be well educated (Eric evidently is) and still use bad grammar but that it is one sign.  As in, anyone can wear overalls but wearing overalls is one sign of a farmer.  Wearing overalls, or using bad grammar, at a job interview will not help you, me, a white person or a black person.

Its coded.

  No, it is not.  You have given yourself permission to read anything a white person says about a black person in a twisted, negative, racist  manner.  The sky's the limit when you can tell yourself that "X" really means "Y," but that doesn't make you imaginings true.  Coding requires intention on the part of the speaker and I know I have no negative, racist feelings about Eric.

  If I say I don't like Eric it's for reasons that have nothing to do with his race.  Several of us said we didn't like Dean much anymore after his deflection of serious topics with childish humor.  If Dean had been black you probably would have jumped all over that and said "childish," was a coded word and Dean couldn't help being the way he is because of the way he's raised, etc. 

 

Look.  This forum has always been used to talk about the show and, although nice complimentary things are often said about the contestants, there has always been lots of criticism, ridicule and nit-picking, too.  Read the comments about Vienna or Chris Soules.  There's nothing coded about criticism of Eric, anymore than the criticism of those people.

[LennieBriscoe]

Once upon a time I taught English, from "Beowulf" to the Harlem Renaissance and points between. 

I'm no stuffy pedant, but I ain't gonna play:  There actually is a structure to our mongrel language. And even though my beloved mother would say, "I seen," she was nonetheless incorrect in a nails-on-blackboard way. 

There is regional dialect (often, IMO, simply a matter of pronunciation rather than structure or phrasing);  there is cultural patois; there is vernacular; and there is Standard English, aka, school lessons that we all hated. 

It's good to know the Standard. Even Picasso began by mastering tradition.

[LydiaMoon1]

13 hours ago, Catronia said:

Regarding Eric -- He would have scared me right off with his talk about how he's never been this open and calm before, and it's all because of Rachel. I can't remember the exact conversation, but he said he takes care of people, and she asked him "who takes care of you?" He responded "you do" and went on to talk about all he needs is for Rachel to take care of him and nurture him.

I don't think Rachel was interested in raising Kenny's (very mature) little girl, and I really don't think she should sign on to be Eric's mommy.

THANK YOU! I was starting to think I was the only one who caught that.  When he told Rachel 'you're so strong and I need help', I yelled at my TV.  I was so disappointed that she kept him.  I would have sent him packing so fast his head would swim. You are absolutely right.  She IS NOT his mommy, and she should have no interest in trying to be.  No woman should bother with a "build-a-man" project.  You either come to me fully assembled or you can kick rocks!

My synopsis of the bachelors so far is pretty succinct.   Kenny was looking for a nanny.  Eric wants a mommy.  Bryan is a player.  Dean is 12.  Peter is a grown man.  Everyone else was forgettable.

As for grammar, why does everyone on TV insist on saying name (or pronoun) and I in places where they should say name (or pronoun) and me?  Drives me crazy.  The funny thing is, I don't hear people make this mistake often  IRL.  People become so hyper-aware of their grammar when they are on TV and they try so hard to "sound smart", but they still end up bringing attention to their bad grammar.

Edited July 12, 2017 by LydiaMoon1

[dleighg]

6 minutes ago, LydiaMoon1 said:

As for grammar, why does everyone on TV insist on saying name (or pronoun) and I in places where they should say name (or pronoun) and me?  Drives me crazy.  The funny thing is, I don't hear people make this mistake often  IRL.  People become so hyper-aware of their grammar when they are on TV and they try so hard to "sound smart" that they still end up bringing attention to their bad grammar.

Yeah I think people *know* that saying "Mark and me went to the movies" is wrong, so they think "I" is the appropriate word to use for proper English in all places. So we get "This trip has been so wonderful for Rachel and I." 

[dirtypop90]

2 hours ago, LennieBriscoe said:

dirtypop90, Are those lawyers' "uneducated" wives otherwise known as "Trophy Second Wives"? (Channeling Betty Broderick here, heh.)

Rachel's social milieu is "athletes and rappers" (I presume that means mega-bucks and mega-partying)? In that case, I don't see her marrying any of these bachelors.

ETA this PSA:  I highly recommend the new TNT show "Will." :-)

By "not educated" I just meant did not go to college.  They do not meet my definition of "trophy wife." They are nice, friendly, attractive but normal-looking, age-appropriate women. lol

[Alison]

1 hour ago, JudyObscure said:

No, it is not.  You have given yourself permission to read anything a white person says about a black person in a twisted, negative, racist  manner.  The sky's the limit when you can tell yourself that "X" really means "Y," but that doesn't make you imaginings true.  Coding requires intention on the part of the speaker and I know I have no negative, racist feelings about Eric.

  If I say I don't like Eric it's for reasons that have nothing to do with his race.  Several of us said we didn't like Dean much anymore after his deflection of serious topics with childish humor.  If Dean had been black you probably would have jumped all over that and said "childish," was a coded word and Dean couldn't help being the way he is because of the way he's raised, etc. 

A lot of coded language can be used unintentionally/subconsciously due to institutionalized racism. I don't think anyone is calling you racist, but maybe you can stop and listen when a person of color says, "Hey, X has negative connotations because..." A word or comment may seem innocent to you, whereas to a person of color, it holds a significant negative meaning for reasons you and I may never understand. There are a lot of great scholarly papers available on the internet that discuss coded language in a very interesting and eye-opening way.

The discussion of Eric's speech on this board has continually made me uncomfortable as the season has gone on, especially this week. I encourage everyone to read this article: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/04/weekinreview/04clemetson.html

[iknow]

3 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

Well you done learnt it wrong.  "Did," indicates the recent past just as well, it's not a new urban word, it's a verb tense.  I heard, "He done it,"  a hundred times, along with double negatives, "I seen,"  and countless other odd and incorrect grammar variations as I grew up  in Appalachia.  It was always by poor whites of Scottish descent. 

This idea that bad grammar is unique to black people is the most racist thing I've heard in a long time.  It's like something you would expect from a KKK member.    Come on!  It's not "black vernacular," it's the language of the uneducated and has nothing to do with the amount of melanin in the skin. Anyone, whether from the urban intercity or the rural hollows, can grow up speaking that way.  If they don't want to change, that's their right, but they should know that it will handicap them when looking for top level jobs.  Standard grammar is not "talking white," it's the language of education and success.

As a linguist, I really have to comment on this. I have researched African American Vernacular English quite a bit and even wrote my bachelor's thesis on the subject. The "done" structure absolutely is a documented feature of AAVE among with many other characteristics. It isn't grammatically correct, textbook English, but it is also not a sign of lazy grammar or lack of education. AAVE shares many characteristics with Southern regional dialect as well. 

Nobody has said that bad grammar is unique to black people. I don't see how you jumped to such an appalling conclusion.

Edited July 12, 2017 by iknow

[Mocking Bird]

2 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

Well you done learnt it wrong.  "Did," indicates the recent past just as well, it's not a new urban word, it's a verb tense.  I heard, "He done it,"  a hundred times, along with double negatives, "I seen,"  and countless other odd and incorrect grammar variations as I grew up  in Appalachia.  It was always by poor whites of Scottish descent. 

This idea that bad grammar is unique to black people is the most racist thing I've heard in a long time.  It's like something you would expect from a KKK member.    Come on!  It's not "black vernacular," it's the language of the uneducated and has nothing to do with the amount of melanin in the skin. Anyone, whether from the urban intercity or the rural hollows, can grow up speaking that way.  If they don't want to change, that's their right, but they should know that it will handicap them when looking for top level jobs.  Standard grammar is not "talking white," it's the language of education and success.

As for "Why didn't we criticize Raven or Gina?"  I can't remember how they talked, but we've been complaining about the misuse of  things like, "Her and I went" since TV message boards have been in existence. We've done it so much it's become a drinking game!  This is just the only time someone became all defensive about it. 

I could not agree more.  For fifty of my sixty years I've lived in Mississippi (a fact I realize will render my opinions immediately suspect) and have heard/read "I seen" used far more often by White, rather than Black people.  My first husband and his family regularly used "I seen" until I broke him of it.  It may be viewed as a cultural phenomena by some, but if so, it's a culture associated with the poor and/or uneducated in general, not one particular race.

[chocolatine]

1 hour ago, LennieBriscoe said:

Once upon a time I taught English, from "Beowulf" to the Harlem Renaissance and points between. 

I'm no stuffy pedant, but I ain't gonna play:  There actually is a structure to our mongrel language. And even though my beloved mother would say, "I seen," she was nonetheless incorrect in a nails-on-blackboard way. 

There is regional dialect (often, IMO, simply a matter of pronunciation rather than structure or phrasing);  there is cultural patois; there is vernacular; and there is Standard English, aka, school lessons that we all hated. 

It's good to know the Standard. Even Picasso began by mastering tradition.

Exactly. I first learned English as a foreign language, and later majored in it at university (in Germany) and took the TOEFL to get into graduate school in the UK. Expressions such as "I seen", "done gone", and "ain't" didn't fly in any of those situations. If people from certain regions said that they grew up thinking 2+2 is 5 it still wouldn't be correct arithmetic. Neither is "done gone" correct grammar.

[peachmangosteen]

9 hours ago, LydiaMoon1 said:

As for grammar, why does everyone on TV insist on saying name (or pronoun) and I in places where they should say name (or pronoun) and me?  Drives me crazy.  The funny thing is, I don't hear people make this mistake often  IRL.  People become so hyper-aware of their grammar when they are on TV and they try so hard to "sound smart", but they still end up bringing attention to their bad grammar.

This. The reason people use 'and I' is because they think it makes them sound smart and this thread has proven that the grammar police will shame you at alarming rates if you don't use proper grammar, so I've stopped judging people for using the wrong phrase. They just don't want people to start calling them 'uneducated' and judging them as people because they don't know every grammar rule.

Edited July 12, 2017 by peachmangosteen

[JudyObscure]

8 minutes ago, Alison said:

A lot of coded language can be used unintentionally/subconsciously due to institutionalized racism. I don't think anyone is calling you racist, but maybe you can stop and listen when a person of color says, "Hey, X has negative connotations because..." A word or comment may seem innocent to you, whereas to a person of color, it holds a significant negative meaning for reasons you and I may never understand. There are a lot of great scholarly papers available on the internet that discuss coded language in a very interesting and eye-opening way.

The discussion of Eric's speech on this board has continually made me uncomfortable as the season has gone on, especially this week. I encourage everyone to read this article: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/04/weekinreview/04clemetson.html

The very fact that you have linked an article about why African Americans don't like to be called "articulate," in order to lecture me about  criticizing Eric for not saying his "th" sounds,  demonstrates exactly what's wrong with the whole "code" concept.  It basically says that when white people talk about black people they are going to be wrong no matter what they say.  If a black person hates white people he can use "That was code!" as an excuse any time he wants against any person he doesn't like. If a white person wants to play the, "I am so much more enlightened than other white people," game they can pretend to understand all the nuances that are lost on the rest of us.  All "code" does is increase tension between races.

[betha]

16 hours ago, Ohwell said:

Edited to add - one thing that came out last night that would bug me if I were a man trying to date Rachel, she turns 'lawyer' way too easily. It's one thing when it's funny when she's calling Demario out but when you're trying to get a man to open up (aka Dean date) and you start to grill him like he's on the stand and not seeing how clearly uncomfortable he is, you need to take a step back 

That seemed to me like producers needed him to talk about his dad and made Rachel keep at it. It was pretty tough to watch.

[ridethemaverick]

10 hours ago, McManda said:

Doesn't BEV come shares a history with slave culture and slave trade? I could see one being uncomfortable with it on that basis alone and honestly, if I made that connection I don't know if I would want the presentation of myself to have that association. Just my personal opinion, of course. I wouldn't want the way I speak to be seen as a person personal limitation.

The way of speaking isn't incorrect, but for better or worse, the connotation that it holds - a lower socioeconomic status, a less educated background, racially charged politics - would be reasons number one through three why I would choose to not use it.

I don't want to deny someone their culture or their heritage. That's a personal decision. But I do believe that one has to be willing to accept the implications and the results of those decisions - or put be willing to put in the work to change the assumptions thereof.

I personally don't see anything wrong with Eric, other than I'm annoyed by his current yes-man attitude. He seems like a genuinely nice but relatively boring guy, and that's all I'm really concerned about. For me there's no real right or wrong answer about his speech. It's like having a personal preference for dark hair or beards. I wouldn't necessarily date somebody that speaks the way he does (though admittedly I've never been in that situation so I don't know for sure), but I don't think that makes him dumb or a bad guy. I'd still hang out with him.

BEV is a valid dialect of English that is spoken by many African Americans. I have a master's degree and I speak it. All of my educated friends speak it. The difference between us and Eric is that we code switch and he doesn't appear to, at least not when he's  speaking. I'm sure he can write SAE just fine given that he graduated magma cum laude.

I'm not sure why black folks would feel uncomfortable speaking it, as our people weren't the ones who enslaved and exploited an entire race of people and are still perpetuating racism through coded language and behavior that penalizes and others people of color for their cultural expressions. I'm proud of my culture and I'm proud to be bidialectal. 

If anyone should feel shame and discomfort, it's people who have rigid ideas about how others should express themselves and are ignorant about what's actually incorrect and what's a product of racial biases. The downside of privilege is that it breeds ignorance. I would be ashamed of that, personally.

[peachmangosteen]

1 minute ago, ridethemaverick said:

BEV is a valid dialect of English that is spoken by many African Americans. I have a master's degree and I speak it. All of my educated friends speak it. The difference between us and Eric is that we code switch and he doesn't appear to, at least not when he's  speaking. I'm sure he can write SAE just fine given that he graduated magma cum laude.

I'm not sure why black folks would feel uncomfortable speaking it, as our people weren't the ones who enslaved and exploited an entire race of people and are still perpetuating racism through coded language and behavior that penalizes and others people of color for their cultural expressions. I'm proud of my culture and I'm proud to be bidialectal. 

If anyone should feel shame and discomfort, it's people who have rigid ideas about how others should express themselves and are ignorant about what's actually incorrect and what's a product of racial biases. The downside of privilege is that it breeds ignorance. I would be ashamed of that, personally.

Bravo!

[Wings]

3 hours ago, ridethemaverick said:

BEV is a valid dialect of English that is spoken by many African Americans. I have a master's degree and I speak it. All of my educated friends speak it. The difference between us and Eric is that we code switch and he doesn't appear to, at least not when he's  speaking. I'm sure he can write SAE just fine given that he graduated magma cum laude.

I'm not sure why black folks would feel uncomfortable speaking it, as our people weren't the ones who enslaved and exploited an entire race of people and are still perpetuating racism through coded language and behavior that penalizes and others people of color for their cultural expressions. I'm proud of my culture and I'm proud to be bidialectal. 

If anyone should feel shame and discomfort, it's people who have rigid ideas about how others should express themselves and are ignorant about what's actually incorrect and what's a product of racial biases. The downside of privilege is that it breeds ignorance. I would be ashamed of that, personally.

Thank you.  I have been educated by this entire discussion.  I deleted a post of mine, recognizing it was viewed as coded.  Certainly not my intent.  

Edited July 12, 2017 by wings707

[ridethemaverick]

34 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

The very fact that you have linked an article about why African Americans don't like to be called "articulate," in order to lecture me about  criticizing Eric for not saying his "th" sounds,  demonstrates exactly what's wrong with the whole "code" concept.  It basically says that when white people talk about black people they are going to be wrong no matter what they say.  If a black person hates white people he can use "That was code!" as an excuse any time he wants against any person he doesn't like. If a white person wants to play the, "I am so much more enlightened than other white people," game they can pretend to understand all the nuances that are lost on the rest of us.  All "code" does is increase tension between races.

Who said anything about hate?

But to your point, it is possible that it's not always coded racist language. After reading though the discussion, I see that some of it is simply ignorance. I suppose it isn't surprising that most Americans make it to adulthood without ever learning about the various dialects of SAE. BEV is a VALID dialect. Which means it's not bad grammar at all. 

What's interesting and funny to me is that I've never heard a white American speak BEV correctly. They think they can speak it by butchering English but they don't know the actual rules and features because they aren't native speakers. It's fascinating.

 

Eta: for those who want to learn, this is one of my favorite blogs. It's written by a linguist who studies BEV (or AAVE). http://www.languagejones.com/blog-1/2014/6/8/what-is-aave

Edited July 12, 2017 by ridethemaverick

[catrice2]

1 hour ago, iknow said:

As a linguist, I really have to comment on this. I have researched African American Vernacular English quite a bit and even wrote my bachelor's thesis on the subject. The "done" structure absolutely is a documented feature of AAVE among with many other characteristics. It isn't grammatically correct, textbook English, but it is also not a sign of lazy grammar or lack of education. AAVE shares many characteristics with Southern regional dialect as well. 

Nobody has said that bad grammar is unique to black people. I don't see how you jumped to such an appalling conclusion.

I think this country in general has gone a little far with the "shaming" and bullying terms.  If someone is critical of anything about a person, policy, institution, etc. they are shaming or bullying instead of having an opinion.  Now, obviously there are clear instances where those terms are appropriate, but in general we throw those terms out way too frequently. 

In the limited time I have been on these boards  all contestants, regardless of color have been criticized for grammar and speech patterns, (as well as many other things)  no one more than NIck Viall and Ben.   I will apologize to anyone that I offended by having an issue with Peter, Eric, Alex, Nick, Bryan,  Ben, etc. that I have mentioned annoy me when they speak for different reasons.  Oddly, I honestly don't remember anyone jumping to defense until some of us mentioned Eric, or calling it coded.  My interpretation of this board is that people snark on different things about contestants that bother them, but it is difficult to understand when it becomes personal to some.  Grammar (as well as mumbling and pronunciation)  is just one of many things that I personally have posted about that bother me about many of the contestants, so it is interesting to me how it has become about race or that has become the thing that is an issue when there were so many others that were multiple posts....like Rachel's eyelashes and glitter choices. 

I can comma splice and split verbs with the best of them, and I am certainly less formal in  written communication on a message board than I am at work, similar to how I may speak a little more casually with family and friends than I do in a business setting.  I am also not perfect with my pronunciation and grammar choices, but I do try to continually learn and apply it.   

  Unfortunately when you elect to go on these shows you put yourself out there for judgement and criticism, however I think it is individual to that person and not a indictment on an entire region, state, race, ethnicity or religion.  Part of this show is about being yourself and I appreciate contestants that do that as much as you can in this situation.  My wise dad always advised me that "not everybody is going to like you," so, that means that we are all going to have our favorites and things that we don't like about others.   Eric seems to have made a life for himself out of difficult circumstances, kudos to him for that.  He is, however, essentially on a job interview in front of millions of people. This could be how he speaks normally, or it could be tied into his branding of himself depending on what his audience is for his motivational speeches...at this point I don't know if anything about these people is authentic. 

As someone pointed out I hear bad grammar from all different people, from many different places no one indicated this was specific to any specific group or background.  In real life we all judge people for many different things, whether it is conscious or subconscious. This includes their fashion choices in certain settings, (like wearing a Daisy Dukes to a wedding, or a  low cut halter sun dress to a church service) moral choices (using drugs, drinking too much) etc.  I agree with some of the posts to a point. I grew up hearing words mispronounced, etc.  As someone said, I am sure I still revert back to some of the things I heard in childhood.  People should speak, dress, etc. in the manner in which they feel comfortable, but they also have to accept that everyone is not going to like it, as I am sure they don't like things about other people. 

My husband's family says "warsh" instead of "wash," as well as  many other things that I believe are regional.  I certainly don't think any less of them or think I am better than they are just because they are different and I am sure I say some things that they find hilarious. 

In general I think Rachel's whole season has made people more guarded, defensive, etc. because of how the producers have chosen to edit it.  Race, in a negative way, has been an undertone in many, many things and people feel like they have to "choose sides," defend people, or find "hidden meanings" in every comment that is made.   Maybe it was that way before, but it seems that the cultural diversity on the show has lead to an increased sensitivity in the media and how people respond to comments that are made about the show and individual contestants.   That is just my opinion, but I think it has taken away from the enjoyment of the show for some viewers.  Of course I recognize that there are a lot of "Lee's" watching the show and their comments come from a particular place, but many people are just making the same comments they have made about other contestants and all of a sudden they have a different meaning. 

Eric to me is just another example of the stereotyping that the casting department used to choose these contestants, as well as picking people that had a story they wanted to push.  As is Dean, Bryan , Will and a few others that come to mind.  No way were we going to not have one person that "overcame" a bad background. Has there been a season before where someone had backstories like Eric and Josiah?   

Edited July 12, 2017 by catrice2
trying to correct multiple talk to text errors. Unsuccessful.

[dleighg]

7 minutes ago, catrice2 said:

My husband's family says "warsh" instead of "wash," as well as  many other things that I believe are regional.  i certainly don't think any less of them or think I am better than they are just because they are different and I am sure I say some things that they find hilarious. 

 

Might that be western Pennsylvania? My parents met and married in Pittsburgh and another "incorrect" regionalism (which I "inherited" until I was told it was wrong well into adulthood) is "that car needs washed" or "that tree needs pruned"

Different people have different degrees of acceptance of correct spoken, vs correct written. I for example can be a bit loose with spoken, friendly English. My DH on the other hand would never let an ungrammatical sentence escape his lips. But I still maintain that I (personally) would be uncomfortable with Eric's spoken English on a daily basis. I hear the argument that it is a rules-driven dialect. I still don't like it.  I guess my loosey-goosey (casual spoken) English is being overlooked by my DH :)

Edited July 12, 2017 by dleighg

[Welp]

Educator here. I speak multiple languages/dialects and have a linguistics background (I've taught both ESL and a second language to native English speakers). Some things people seem...confused...about:

1) Grammar is not correct or incorrect outside of context. AAVE (Af-Am Vernacular English) has a consistent grammatical structure just like American English (the "English" umbrella covers multiple languages and dialects) and British English. For example, in AAVE it is grammatically correct to use "been" to indicate a long-since completed past action, e.g., "I been cleaned my room" means "I finished cleaning my room some time ago."

2) The meaning of "Standard English" even varies by country. For example, British and American English have different rules about conjugating the verb "to be" for collective nouns (group, team, etc.).

3) Accents relate to pronunciation, not grammar. 

4) There are different scholarly opinions about what makes a language vs. a dialect, but it's a question of intelligibility (speakers of different dialects being able to understand one another), not complexity. And even that test is fallible because some would argue Castilian Spanish and Portuguese are mutually intelligible, yet most think of them as two different languages.

5) In many schools with diverse populations, the current approach is to treat all students as English Language Learners and teach them to codeswitch between "home language" (whether it's a dialect of English or a second language) and "academic English." Even kids who speak SE at home need direct grammar instruction on the formal language of school (which translates to formal writing), and we all codeswitch depending on audience (friends vs. colleagues, etc.). The goal is to make codeswitching an explicit skill to be learned rather than an implicit judgment of students' backgrounds (which often dovetails with judging their ethnicity, SES, etc.) and to recognize the inherently descriptive nature of English grammar shifts.

Edited July 12, 2017 by Welp
Typo