S10.E12: The Doctor Falls

[rur]

52 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

For me Twelve is dying. Thirteen will be the Doctor, but he won't be the same person he is now, so I get wanting to hold onto who he is now. I know I am fighting the regeneration as much as he is because I feel like I've only had one year with my second favorite Doctor (I barely watched when Clara was on), so I, too, am not ready to see him go.

Ditto. We only had one year of Twelve with a companion of his choice. And it's not that I'm hating on Clara when I say this, it's more that she was a different version of the Doctor's  leftover that stuck around too long. 

[Skyfall]

15 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

That was epic. And odd. Basically, Bill is now kinda/sorta sentient water like her crush from "The Pilot." And they're going to explore space and time together. Now I'm wondering if they'll bump into Clara and Ashildr. I hope not, because I'm thinking Maisie Williams has bigger things on her plate. Ditto Jenna Coleman. Not to mention that Clara sucks as a character, and I don't think Chibnall (sic?) can improve her.

You gotta admit, if we don't see any incarnation of the Master for some time, this would be the perfect end. Two scorpions stinging each other to death because that's what they are. Also liking Missy's weaponized umbrella. Sonic umbrella? Laser?? Pity Seven never thought of that. He didn't even have the screwdriver. Just a companion with a penchant for explosives.

I like the idea of the Doctor coming full circle, though I wonder if this would be during or before One's adventures. Thanks to BBCA, there were no credits. Had to hit AVClub to find out it was David Bradley. Hey, if you're going to get a new actor to play Hartnell's version, why not get the guy that played Hartnell? I'm hoping Moffat doesn't do too weird with his finale. I mean, what if the Doctor becomes brain-damaged/amnesiac, regenerates into something younger and female, and the First Doctor adopts her as his granddaughter? And the next season picks up after "The Dalek Invasion of Earth"? That's some weird-ass fanfic to be had.

I think I'm gonna miss Nardole. I would've made a bigger deal about him being more/less than human. I can't remember any Doctor carrying around a deadpan snarker.

ETA for @theschnauzers: Richard Hurndall played One in "The Five Doctors."

I want a Bill/Heather spinoff damnit! Would be better than The Class... After abandoning the show the past two seasons (due to the annoying girl and how the story was starting to revolve around her since she couldn't flirt with the older Doctor), this season has been the show Imlved during 11's time. Here's hoping we don't slide back with a completely clean slate!

[KirkB]

This episode didn't have much in the way of cute or funny moments, for obvious reasons, and pretty much all of them came from Missy and the Master, the only people who could possibly be having fun during all the death and destruction. But I have to admit how hard I laughed when first the Master and then Missy coming onto the ship and told Nardole "The Doctor's dead. He said he always hated you." in the exact same matter-of-fact, disinterested tone.

[Pattycake2]

Well, that episode got me.  I have never been a big fan of twelve, but this season has been really good.  And I love Bill and Nardole and want them back!  Can't Nardole find the Master's tardis  (with a regenerated helpful Missy), remove the colonists to another planet and return to the new Doctor?  These companions were just so damn good.  It's a shame to lose them after only one season.

[LiveenLetLive]

6 minutes ago, Pattycake2 said:

Well, that episode got me.  I have never been a big fan of twelve, but this season has been really good.  And I love Bill and Nardole and want them back!  Can't Nardole find the Master's tardis  (with a regenerated helpful Missy), remove the colonists to another planet and return to the new Doctor?  These companions were just so damn good.  It's a shame to lose them after only one season.

I'm sure that next season will be a return of a beautiful young woman companion despite the fact that the fans loved Donna and we also loved Bill (Pearl is adorable btw, but you know what I mean) and Nardole

[Llywela]

2 hours ago, John Potts said:

I was SO dreading we were getting the "I love you" from Bill, so I was glad we got, "I like women. And young!" And call me ageist, but I know I make it a policy not to date anyone more than a millennia older than me.

I agree, but I didn't see why she needed to make that speech at all. They were two comrades and travelling companions saying their farewells before what both expected to be their final battle. It wasn't a romantic moment. So why would anyone feel the need, in that moment before walking away to their deaths, to remind their friend that they don't fancy them? Did she think he might have got confused, in the intensity of the moment? Because I really don't think so! It was a scene written to remind the audience, as if we needed reminding - just like all those times Donna and Ten felt the need to remind us they weren't a couple.

Quote

It's fitting that the Masters would be so egotistical that even having to accommodate another version of themselves is too much of a compromise. Though I suspect Missy could return - we didn't see her die and the Master has come back from MUCH worse.

Ain't that the truth = he's come back from being dead and cremated. He's come back from being burned to a crisp. He's come back from being a puddle of sentient goo! And anyway, just because he claimed Missy wouldn't be able to regenerate after such a blast, why on Earth should we take him at his word?!

[Mabinogia]

2 hours ago, HouseofBeck said:

That scene where Nardole realizes exactly what the Doctor is saying (about who is stronger), and says that soft, "Damn," got me so in the feels.

That moment was beautiful. And a perfect example of showing not telling. I am so grateful they respected the audience enough to get it. Other shows would have them talk through it, ruining the moment. There was some really beautiful moments in this finale. As much as I hate Moffat as a show runner, that boy can write! He has written some of my favorite episodes and this is certainly getting added to that list.

[Bruinsfan]

2 hours ago, John Potts said:

It's fitting that the Masters would be so egotistical that even having to accommodate another version of themselves is too much of a compromise. Though I suspect Missy could return - we didn't see her die and the Master has come back from MUCH worse.

Indeed, the John Simm version himself came back from the dead via a small piece of his body and what looked like a cult's demon summoning ritual, and it didn't even require him to regenerate!

Edited July 2, 2017 by Bruinsfan

[Pattycake2]

1 hour ago, LiveenLetLive said:

I'm sure that next season will be a return of a beautiful young woman companion despite the fact that the fans loved Donna and we also loved Bill (Pearl is adorable btw, but you know what I mean) and Nardole

 

And probably the beautiful young woman will have a disapproving, troublesome mother.  Sigh.

[DJG1122]

1 hour ago, LiveenLetLive said:

I'm sure that next season will be a return of a beautiful young woman companion despite the fact that the fans loved Donna and we also loved Bill (Pearl is adorable btw, but you know what I mean) and Nardole

Someone upthread said that there were exit interviews or goodbye interviews with both Matt Lucas and Michelle Gomez, but nothing from Pearl Mackie.  Wondering if Pearl is staying on. If we get a woman Dr, the romance possibility would be there, obviously, while a youngish handsome man would bring in the younger women  watchers without the romance possibilities. Hmmmmm......

[Starchild]

1 hour ago, Bruinsfan said:

Indeed, the John Simm version himself came back from the dead via a small piece of his body and what looked like a cult's demon summoning ritual, and it didn't even require him to regenerate!

Framing the current Master's (Missy) death as one from which she could not regenerate feels a lot like Moffatt taking his toys home with him. "Good luck ever trying to use the Master again, Chibnall."

[JayEeeBee]

19 hours ago, LadyNebula said:

Incidentally, I'm a huge disappointment to my mother.  Her only child isn't a Whovian OR a Trekkie. The horror!  It's nice to know that you can disappoint your parents at any age...

Join my children on that couch!  ;)  They are 32 and 27 and would rather eat worms than sit through an episode. 

[foreverevolving]

Also: I wonder how no one mentioned the jelly babies yet!

[Florinaldo]

SM succeeded in disappointing my comfortable expectations; he usually manages to falter in the execution of his big concepts and the resolution of his very involved plots. This time though it worked, for the most part, despite a few creaky points here and there (the time dilation effect on the big ship still does not make sense and he mucked it up a little further in this one; and how can the big blast kill all Cybermen but not the two heroes). SM also did a major wiping of the slate in order to leave the field wide open for the next showrunner.

It was a fitting send-off for each of the the departing actors and they were all given some very meaty material. Bill's ending was perhaps a touch too Heather ex machina, forcing the viewer to recall a character that was barely developed in its only appearance 11 episodes ago, but at least it was a quick solution to the difficult problem of how to get a companion out of the cyberconversion process and restore the missing body parts. It also leaves open the possibility of a future return, even if only for an episode or two. Just as I am sure the show will find a way to bring in some new (or old) incarnation of the Master if they feel the need to do so, despite his words of "don't bother to try to regenerate" after he blasts Missy.

I was worried that we would get John Simm's annoying manic version of the Master as an hyperactive teenager; it seems the character took an extra dose of Ritalin this time around and was wisely restrained, which means he meshed quite efficiently with Missy.

Considering that Nardole has been written as having travelled to so many worlds, even from before he joined the Doctor,I doubt that he could realistically be expected to be content with life on a farm, despite having found a good woman to share that life with. Not to mention that the Cybermen threat is only delayed, not averted, and that there is that black hole looming large outside; surely the engines won't last forever. So another possible return.

As through all this season, a few allusions to classic DW, like various planets Cybermen dwelt on, the fall from the Pharos project tower in "Logopolis", the Ainley-like laugh and of course jellybabies. One missed opportunity was having the swaddlings Cybermen upgrade immediately to the full-steel version, skipping the PVC-like masks seen during most of Classic Who (unless I missed it). The flashback to former companions saying "Doctor!" seemed like another familiar device; the vision of Missy seems to be the one that gave the Doctor the final jolt necessary to actually revive.

The shot of the Doctor sitting on the porch cradling a gun reminded me of Lillian Gish in a similar setting in The Night of the Hunter, also guarding children in her charge against some coming evil.

And we also get the tantalising sight of One a the very end. David Bradlay did such a good job in the TV-movie on the creation and first years of the show that it should be a treat to see him spar with PC next Christmas. Amusing coincidence: he currently stars in The Strain, in which he battles hordes of repulsive vampiric creatures whose leader is called... The Master.

[benteen]

9 hours ago, rur said:

Ditto. We only had one year of Twelve with a companion of his choice. And it's not that I'm hating on Clara when I say this, it's more that she was a different version of the Doctor's  leftover that stuck around too long. 

I wish Peter Capaldi had a different writer than Moffat.  But at least we got one season with a companion designed for him.  I like Jenna Coleman a lot (love Victoria) but I disliked Clara and her relationship with the Doctor was toxic.

If you want to see a fun 12 and Clara relationship, check out the earlier issues of Titan's Doctor Who The 12th Doctor.  I wish we could have gotten that 12 and Clara during the first two seasons.

Quote

"I like women. And young!"

Definitely a Moffat moment that failed.  The Doctor and the audience knew that Bill likes women.  What was the point of restating the obvious?

"The Doctor's dead.  He said he always hated you."  Now that line, repeated by both Masters, was gold.

[LiveenLetLive]

2 hours ago, Florinaldo said:

It was a fitting send-off for each of the the departing actors and they were all given some very meaty material. Bill's ending was perhaps a touch too Heather ex machina, forcing the viewer to recall a character that was barely developed in its only appearance 11 episodes ago

agreed BUT I personally have to remind myself that this is a "family" show meant, to begin with, to entertain children, death with its grim finality is perhaps  not suitable? I guess that SM had to come up with some way to soften the blow. so why not bring in the cute girl that Bill had been attracted to to provide a "fairytale" ending?

Quote

The shot of the Doctor sitting on the porch cradling a gun reminded me of Lillian Gish in a similar setting in The Night of the Hunter, also guarding children in her charge against some coming evil.

Genius catch-->love the analogy! 

Edited July 3, 2017 by LiveenLetLive

[jhlipton]

On 7/1/2017 at 10:21 PM, LiveenLetLive said:

I hope that the next show runner notes how successful Bill and Nardole were as companions--no moony "love match" between the doctor and his hot young female companion, dare I hope for an equally interesting new companion/companions?

If Pearl Mackie can't return (hopefully because she's starring in BBC-Everything), I hope they get another companion -- a friend, if reluctant one at first, not a love interest.

On 7/1/2017 at 10:51 PM, KirkB said:

I was resigned to Bill going out fighting, even though I didn't like the idea of her being a Cyberman but taking a bunch of them out with her would have been appropriate. I must admit though, I did not see Heather coming. If Bill can't be human again, at least this way she gets to continue traveling the universe at her own pace, and with a new girlfriend, so I'm okay with that. Plus, she'd have an easier time coming back for a visit than almost any other companion, because if her tears can do what Heather's do she can always find the Doctor.

What can I say except this to the 1,000 power.  A great and fitting end (or not!) for Bill and a powerhouse performance by Mackie

23 hours ago, LadyNebula said:

Let me start off by saying that I'm not a Whovian.

I'm not a Whovian either.  I tuned in for Mackie and am am so glad  i did!

7 hours ago, Llywela said:

I agree, but I didn't see why she needed to make that speech at all.

It was such a beautiful burn though.  Bill says "You know I prefer women" and the Doctor wonders where this is going. "and people my own age", causes the Doctor to light up.. "so you've been a great friend!"  Bill was never going to say anything romantic to the Doctor; she was just giving him a bit of his own back.

 

As for Heather, oh, look it's a deus ex machina -- like this entire show (not just this season, the whole show from start to now, hasn't been chock-full of them.  

I went back and watched the Bill and Heather interactions in The Pilot and their relationship, though not long, was intense.  The last thing Bill said to Heather was "Promise you won't go", and Heather kept that promise to the end of the universe, and only left after Bill experienced what Heather was seeing, and then let go.  So the seed was very definitely laid right from jump.

[The Companion]

Loved this episode so much. For reasons I still can't fathom, my DVR decided the new episode was coming on at 3am so I had to wait until today. I am so glad I avoided being spoiled. 

I loved Bill's happy ending (at least for now). Pearl Mackie absolutely broke my heart with her slow realization that she was a cyberman. She was so incredible.

Loved pretty much everything between Missy and the Master. I particularly enjoyed the word play: knock yourself out, me and me, etc. 

I find myself really sad that we are saying goodbye to Capaldi. His grumpy charm really grew on me. I loved the callback to River's words and the speech about being kind. 

[foreverevolving]

16 minutes ago, The Companion said:

I loved the callback to River's words

which words? I must have missed it.

[The Companion]

2 minutes ago, foreverevolving said:

which words? I must have missed it.

The callback to the diary entry Nardole read at Missy's execution. 

[SVNBob]

On 7/2/2017 at 0:29 AM, Llywela said:

Bill heroically being strong enough to retain her self-image after conversion, right down to believing she was still in her own body, despite the fact that the whole point of Cyber-conversion (and Dalek conversion) is to remove all emotions and individuality. So, flawed conversion or just a super-special individual to whom the rules don't apply, just because?

The Doctor actually gave a plausible reason.  He theorized that it was her months-long mental battle against the Monks' retcon of Earth history that had given her the strength and ability to counter the Cyberprogramming and retain her self-identity.

 

16 hours ago, HouseofBeck said:

I was waiting for the Cloister Bell to go off!

It was, at the end.  The last shot of the TARDIS interior had the Cloister Bell ringing.  Whether it was because of Twelve fighting his regeneration, or the timeline crossing, or both, I cannot say.

 

In addition to Heather's return, and Bill vs. the Monks, there was one other call-back to earlier in the series.  Missy's death sentence was carried out properly.  Recall that one of the conditions of said sentence was that her executioner had to be a Time Lord.  I'd say that getting shot in the back by a previous regeneration counts.

[festivus]

On 7/1/2017 at 5:49 PM, Lokiberry said:

I don't care if it's another case of Moffat not being willing to kill his companions off, if Clara got immortality and her own TARDIS  while Bill died a Cyberman, I would have thrown a bitch fit you could have seen from space.

I am telling you. I've been thinking how much better 12's run could have been if they had let that really be old Clara in that Christmas special and brought Bill in last season instead of making half the damn thing about running from Clara's death. I really loved Bill and wish we would have had more of her. I do have the UO  of mostly loving Moffat's run except for his unfortunate love of Clara. I'm going to miss him, I'm apprehensive about Chibnall.

Loved this episode, everything about it. One of my favorite little moments was The Master putting on his "I'm super evil" eyeliner. lol. 

 

I don't know if it was just Moffat messing around but I felt like we had a lot of hints that 13 will be a woman. I'd just say that folks better get ready.

[FormerMod-a1]

This episode just gutted me.  I am not ready for Capaldi to go yet.  (sniff)  I am glad Bill got to live on, no matter how it was done.  

[cardigirl]

1 hour ago, festivus said:

I really loved Bill and wish we would have had more of her. I do have the UO  of mostly loving Moffat's run except for his unfortunate love of Clara. I'm going to miss him, I'm apprehensive about Chibnall.

Loved this episode, everything about it. One of my favorite little moments was The Master putting on his "I'm super evil" eyeliner. lol. 

 

I don't know if it was just Moffat messing around but I felt like we had a lot of hints that 13 will be a woman. I'd just say that folks better get ready.

 

I loved a lot of this episode, I thought Pearl Mackie did a wonderful job this season, and if she is really gone, I will miss her.  I thought she stood alone as a companion, unique. Except for maybe Nardol, who was unusual as well, and I loved him for it.  She is waaay waaay above Donna, in my opinion, but then most of the companions are for me.

Given how poor Broadchurch has been in successive seasons, I'm apprehensive about Chibnall as well.  

And I'm not anti-woman, but I will probably have a difficult time accepting a time lady.  (Yeah, I know, I'm bad.)

Edited July 3, 2017 by cardigirl

[Julie23]

I wasn't a big fan of Peter Capaldi's Doctor, until this season. I don't know if it was the writing, or the companions, but I so loved Nardol and Bill, they made this season, in my opinion. Well and Missy/Master was terrific. I have always had a love/hate thing for John Simms Master, and he did not disappoint. This was by far the best episode of the entire 12th doctor reign, although we sadly lost everyone at the end. 

[darkestboy]

I actually enjoyed this as much as last week and yeah, there were some problems.

Cybermen were a bit too easily taken out and the tone did shift a bit from the previous episode.

However I loved all the Twelve, Missy and the Master scenes and that kindness speech was beautifully done.

Missy and the Master's interactions were fabulous, right down to them killing each other as well.

Didn't care too much for Hazran and the kids but their scenes with Nardole were good though. Nardole's exit a little rushed but he had some nice moments with Twelve and Bill though.

Heather being brought back to exit Bill and undo the cyber conversion worked better than I thought but felt similar to Clara/Ashildr from last series.

Loved the companion flashbacks despite some glaring omissions and Twelve meeting One at the end does set up Christmas pretty well, 10/10

[alrightokay]

3 hours ago, festivus said:

I am telling you. I've been thinking how much better 12's run could have been if they had let that really be old Clara in that Christmas special and brought Bill in last season instead of making half the damn thing about running from Clara's death. I really loved Bill and wish we would have had more of her. I do have the UO  of mostly loving Moffat's run except for his unfortunate love of Clara. I'm going to miss him, I'm apprehensive about Chibnall.

I totally agree with you on all of these points.  But then, I have to remind myself that if Twelve hadn't been so close to Clara, we wouldn't have gotten the sublime "Heaven Sent"--and that episode was (maybe) worth all of the Clara-focus.  (Would the Doctor have spent billions of years in his own personal hell for Bill?  I would hope so, but it seemed like his long history with Clara--with her splintering herself to help all of his iterations--is what made him feel especially driven to get out of the Confession Dial and save her.)  But you're right, Capaldi's run would have been much better received if we had had the "fresh start" with Bill and Nardole earlier.  I've loved him from the start, and I'm sad that he won't be remembered as warmly as other Doctors because of how he was written.

Edited July 3, 2017 by alrightokay

[festivus]

Heaven Sent was a great episode and you get to see a great actor do their thing which I did love. My problem though will always be that I never bought Clara and 12's supposedly close relationship even though PC did his very best to sell it. I will still remember him warmly as the doctor though because he did his very best with what he was given. At least we did have this one season with Bill and Nardole. 

[proserpina65]

On ‎07‎/‎01‎/‎2017 at 10:14 PM, cardigirl said:

I came here to post my disappointment about no memory of Rory, when the Doctor was recalling his companions. I loved Rory!!! Glad to see I'm not the only one. 

In all fairness, there were almost none of the Classic Who companions included, other than Susan and, I think, Sarah Jane.  Which meant no Ian and Barbara, no Leela, and, most importantly, no Jamie!

Unless I missed them because . . . um . . . there was a lot of dust in the room at the time.  Yeah, that's it, dust.

Edited July 3, 2017 by proserpina65

[Llywela]

28 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

In all fairness, there were almost none of the Classic Who companions included, other than Susan and, I think, Sarah Jane.  Which meant no Ian and Barbara, no Leela, and, most importantly, no Jamie!

It was a New Who companion-fest. Susan was not part of the montage, iirc - Sarah was there because she had adventures with Ten. If Vastra and Jenny were included, Rory and Mickey absolutely should have been.

Just re-watched the episode with my other half, and enjoyed it again, I'm happy to say. I am still annoyed, though, that Moffat thought it would be a good idea, in his final season, to attempt to shoehorn a clumsy, half-baked redemption arc onto one of the most notorious villains the show has ever had - and that he did it while that notorious villain was in a female body for the first time. Because all those male incarnations were evil through and through, but now that the Master is a woman, of course s/he has to grow a conscience all of a sudden. It links to an uncomfortable way Moffat has of presenting women at times, which I'm sure he thinks is glorifying them, but is rooted in paternalism. And it just doesn't work, for me. I think that final scene between Missy and the Master was the closest they've come to actually selling the 'redemption' story, but I still can't buy it. I'm sorry, this individual has spent hundreds if not thousands of years caring about nothing but themselves, craving power, craving glory, slaughtering literally billions just because they were in the way, or even just for the fun of it. But we are supposed to believe that all s/he's ever really wanted was to stand beside the Doctor? That simply isn't true. So what brought about the change? Because she's a woman now? Because of the personality shift that comes with regeneration? Neither can be true, because Missy has been around for three seasons now, two of which she spent scheming and murdering with as much glee as ever, if she was going to change or grow a conscience thanks to her regeneration, it would have happened long before now. So is it because she's spent a few years in prison? No, because the character has spent long swathes of time in prison before now, and has been visited by the Doctor while in prison before now, so that can't be called a new experience that would make an impression. Is it because she stared execution in the face? Again, no, because the Master has been executed before. No, I simply can't swallow it - and it was the central storyline of the season.

But I did enjoy watching Missy and the Master together in spite of that.

Edited July 3, 2017 by Llywela

[Pattycake2]

One thing that did bug me was Bill being shot in front of the Doctor.  He could have used the sonic, his fighting skills, or just sent Bill back into the tardis.  It was kind of lame.  The  Master/Missy thing can be confusing regarding the redemption arc.  Yes, Missy was evil, but the drumming was gone.  On the other hand, when the Master couldn't remember he was a time lord, he was a very nice guy.  

[MarkHB]

On 7/2/2017 at 8:56 PM, Florinaldo said:

As through all this season, a few allusions to classic DW, like various planets Cybermen dwelt on, the fall from the Pharos project tower in "Logopolis", the Ainley-like laugh and of course jellybabies.

The one thing I was hoping for and didn't get, when the Doctor was blasting Cybermen and rattling off the various planets, etc., was for him to say, "and that's for Adric!" 

[Lantern7]

14 minutes ago, MarkHB said:

The one thing I was hoping for and didn't get, when the Doctor was blasting Cybermen and rattling off the various planets, etc., was for him to say, "and that's for Adric!" 

"Now you'll never know if you got it right!!!" ". . . huh?"

[tennisgurl]

Oh Bill! Oh Doctor! Oh my feelings! I have some issues, but I thought that was a great ending, with lots of excitement and emotions and I'm just SUCH a sucker for call backs to the original series that I started tearing up the second we heard the voice of the 1st Doctor out in the mist. Damn it, I want that Christmas special! Right now!

I'm so happy that Bill is alright! She and Heather certainly didn't know each other super well, but Heather said that she could easily make Bill human and she can go home and live her life when she's done exploring, so it doesn't have to be a forever thing. It can just be the greatest first date in the history of the universe. When Heather showed up, I literally gasped. Like, I'm just so slow on the uptake, I totally forgot that she was an option to save Bill. The only bad things? The Doctor and Bill don't know the other one is ok, which is just super depressing, and this means we probably wont get Bill as a companion next season! And that's just not acceptable! She and Nardole and the Doctor were a fun trio, and I enjoyed having some diversity among our companions. I guess that means our next companion will be...you'll never guess...an attractive young woman from the contemporary UK who'll fall in love with the Doctor or some shit! Hold onto your hats folks! We broke from pattern this time, we need to get back!

Speaking of ex companions, I like the flashes of the other companions of modern Who (I guess Sarah Jane counts, having her own show and everything)...except for the exclusion of Mickey and Rory. Because I guess the Doctor gives zero fucks about those guys! That just seems super messed up, they went through as much shit with the Doctor as anyone else, especially Rory, who was super close with 11 back in the day. Now he's the Zoidberg of the Who verse? It does look...interesting though, that all the companions the Doctor thinks about are women, plus Jack. Are his travels through time and space just a big intergalactic dating service? Does being a dude mean your time with the Doctor is less meaningful? I guess when you have the first female Master also be the first one to turn good, who knows? Its making me give some side eye to an otherwise really good episode, and more or less solid season.

Anyway, I'm so glad 12 got to have a good season, at last. PC really showed what he could do and I'm both looking forward to seeing his last stand, and dreading seeing go right when I'm getting attached to him. Now, can we get Bill back? Pretty please?

[FiveByFive]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

The Doctor and Bill don't know the other one is ok, which is just super depressing, and this means we probably wont get Bill as a companion next season! And that's just not acceptable!

I think it means the opposite. There's no confirmation she won't be back at least for the next episode at Christmas. It was obvious to me they left the door open for her to return by her not making a decision with Heather, specifying that she could be human again, asking if she could come back and leaving her tears to find the Doctor. That doesn't seem final to me.

Also, it would strike me as weird if the Doctor, who last he knew was on the ship in an explosion to take out the Cybers, didn't question just how he got back on the Tardis or wonder if he survived if Bill did too. With Clara he can't remember her, with Amy/Rory he knows they're dead in the past and he can't get them, he always knew River would end up in the library and he sent Nardole off himself, I don't think he'd take the chance at leaving someone stranded. Although he's got that pesky regeneration thing to do first. 

[benteen]

In fairness, when The Master was introduced back in the 1970s, his last appearance was supposed to be him redeeming himself by saving The Doctor.  Sadly, Roger Delgado died before that could happen.  Part of that storyline was used in the 10th Doctor's last appearance.  So the idea of a redeemed Master is nothing new.  Though yeah, this episodes does seem to hint that Missy is open to "redemption" because she's a woman.

[Llywela]

59 minutes ago, benteen said:

In fairness, when The Master was introduced back in the 1970s, his last appearance was supposed to be him redeeming himself by saving The Doctor.  Sadly, Roger Delgado died before that could happen.  Part of that storyline was used in the 10th Doctor's last appearance.  So the idea of a redeemed Master is nothing new.  Though yeah, this episodes does seem to hint that Missy is open to "redemption" because she's a woman.

But I think you can get away with a redemption storyline if it happens within the lifespan of that first incarnation of the character - when 40 years of the show and multiple centuries and lifetimes for the character have gone by and the remorselessly evil deeds have just stacked up and up and up, that's when it loses plausibility. The show offered no reason or explanation for the character's supposed change of heart, or at least none that I find the slightest bit convincing. It just happened because that's the storyline decided on for this season, whether it follows on from what's gone before or not. For me, it's the one sour note in an otherwise really strong and enjoyable season - the first season I've really enjoyed in years.

[Mabinogia]

41 minutes ago, Llywela said:

The show offered no reason or explanation for the character's supposed change of heart, or at least none that I find the slightest bit convincing.

I loved how Michelle Gomez acted Missy's confliction so for that I am glad of the redemption arc, and I do think that the Master, if trapped alone with nothing but the Doctor preaching about redemption for centuries might actually toy with the idea, but the show did a piss poor job of showing why the Master would suddenly decide to try being good other than he's now a girl and girls are nicer than boys and given the shows track record in gender relations, it's hard not to see it as that.

[Llywela]

27 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

I loved how Michelle Gomez acted Missy's confliction so for that I am glad of the redemption arc, and I do think that the Master, if trapped alone with nothing but the Doctor preaching about redemption for centuries might actually toy with the idea, but the show did a piss poor job of showing why the Master would suddenly decide to try being good other than he's now a girl and girls are nicer than boys and given the shows track record in gender relations, it's hard not to see it as that.

Exactly. And frankly, Missy wasn't trapped alone with the Doctor preaching about redemption for centuries. A few decades, perhaps, but with intermittent rather than constant visits, and the character has been in prison before and has been visited by the Doctor while in prison before, and has faced the death sentence before, and it just isn't enough to bring about such a change.

Frankly, the storyline lost me the moment it produced a bunch of all-powerful intergalactic executioners from out of thin air to carry out a hugely elaborate death sentence, passed by authorities unknown, for crimes unspecified (yes, I know there are plenty to choose from, but a court of law does need to be specific!), all with no explanation or exploration. It all felt so contrived and implausible, and I was never able to get on board from there on.

But this episode, with the clear contrast between the personalities of the two Masters, was the closest they've ever come to convincing me, so kudos to Michelle Gomez for that, especially in her final scene. If I didn't remember the history of the character so clearly, I might have bought it.

[Mabinogia]

4 minutes ago, Llywela said:

And frankly, Missy wasn't trapped alone with the Doctor preaching about redemption for centuries. A few decades, perhaps, but with intermittent rather than constant visits, and the character has been in prison before and has been visited by the Doctor while in prison before, and has faced the death sentence before, and it just isn't enough to bring about such a change.

That's the problem. If they had made it that she was at the end of her thousand year sentence or whatever it was, her wanting to at least try redemption would have felt more earned and made more sense. But because it was so early in the vault it left us with the impression it is because she's female and females are soft and mushy, which is disappointing.

I wouldn't have said no to an episode of just the Doctor and Missy, snippets of their interactions though the years (of course, if I were writing the show she'd have been in there for several hundred at this point and finally start letting his words truly seep in). Since I don't know that much about their history together I would have enjoyed listening to them and given how strong Capaldi and Gomez are, and how well they work off of each other, I would have enjoyed just watching them play with each other. Like that hot/cold scene when the Doctor was trying to find out how to stop the Monks. I could have done with the Monk storyline being just one episode to make room for a Doctor/Master only ep. But I am fascinated by their relationship so I am ever so slightly biased lol.

[KirkB]

I don't know if Moffat and/or 12 have issues with Mickey and Rory, but is it possible they were not included in the companion montage because there were no scenes of them screaming or saying the Doctor's name in a particularly dramatic way to draw from?

Edited July 4, 2017 by KirkB

[Chyromaniac]

When David Bradley showed up as the villain in the Dinosaurs show, I felt that it was kind of a shame, because he would've been great if they ever wanted to do a story with the First Doctor.  Then they cast him as Hartnell in the Space and Time movie, and I thought, "well, it's not the actual show - but this is probably close enough, and I'm glad we at least got to see him in the costume."  And now it's actually happening for real.  Very excited for Christmas.  This is not a spoiler, as I have no inside knowledge, but...

 

one of the things Capaldi always says is that he'd like for the Doctor to see his granddaughter again - I hope they can make that happen, for 12 and 1.

4 minutes ago, KirkB said:

I don't know if Moffat and/or 12 have issues with Mickey and Rory, but is it possible they were not included in the companion montage because there were no scenes of them screaming out or saying the Doctor's name in a particularly dramatic way?

That's my assumption as well - also, something like that can only go on so long before it starts to get silly.  I feel like they had enough companions included, without belaboring the issue.

[ganesh]

44 minutes ago, KirkB said:

I don't know if Moffat and/or 12 have issues with Mickey and Rory, but is it possible they were not included in the companion montage because there were no scenes of them screaming or saying the Doctor's name in a particularly dramatic way to draw from?

That's probably correct, but who wouldn't want to see Rory as the Gladiator asking "Where is my wife?" as ships explode in the background one more time?

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Familiar Faces Have A Lot To Face In Doctor Who's Season 10 Finale

And the story comes full circle.

[clack]

Quote

5 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

That's the problem. If they had made it that she was at the end of her thousand year sentence or whatever it was, her wanting to at least try redemption would have felt more earned and made more sense. But because it was so early in the vault it left us with the impression it is because she's female and females are soft and mushy, which is disappointing.

I wouldn't have said no to an episode of just the Doctor and Missy, snippets of their interactions though the years (of course, if I were writing the show she'd have been in there for several hundred at this point and finally start letting his words truly seep in). Since I don't know that much about their history together I would have enjoyed listening to them and given how strong Capaldi and Gomez are, and how well they work off of each other, I would have enjoyed just watching them play with each other. Like that hot/cold scene when the Doctor was trying to find out how to stop the Monks. I could have done with the Monk storyline being just one episode to make room for a Doctor/Master only ep. But I am fascinated by their relationship so I am ever so slightly biased lol.

 

I don't see that Missy redeemed herself in any way. He/she had always defined her/himself in relation to the Doctor, and so it makes sense that Missy would choose to leave the stage alongside the Doctor. Their fates are in some way entwined, and Missy recognizes this.

Doesn't make her any less psychopathic. She hasn't reformed, or chosen to become kind. She cares nothing for Bill, or the children -- only and always the Doctor.

[jhlipton]

On 7/3/2017 at 5:03 AM, SVNBob said:

In addition to Heather's return, and Bill vs. the Monks, there was one other call-back to earlier in the series.  Missy's death sentence was carried out properly.  Recall that one of the conditions of said sentence was that her executioner had to be a Time Lord.  I'd say that getting shot in the back by a previous regeneration counts.

Cool -- I had forgotten about that!  Well done, Moffat!

[KirkB]

2 hours ago, clack said:

I don't see that Missy redeemed herself in any way. He/she had always defined her/himself in relation to the Doctor, and so it makes sense that Missy would choose to leave the stage alongside the Doctor. Their fates are in some way entwined, and Missy recognizes this.

Missy wasn't in any way redeemed as far as I could see. She spent a few decades in that cage with little else to do but play the piano and once and a while have a chat with the Doctor. She had plenty of time to think about the billions of people she's killed, the planets she's destroyed, she was contemplating whether or not it made her a bad person, and in the end I think she decided she still didn't care. When she decided to go help the Doctor it certainly wasn't for the sake of all the innocents on the ship, or Bill, it was because the Master in whatever form always wants to be the focus of the Doctor's attention. Look back to Harry Saxon, when he created the Toclafane and had them wipe out one tenth of the population it wasn't because he hated humanity, they were basically beneath them, he wanted to hurt the Doctor and prove to him how smart and ruthless he was. He has always cared about the Doctor's opinion, and I think he gets a sense of validation whenever the Doctor shows up and tells him to stop because it means he has his attention.

Edited July 4, 2017 by KirkB

[whoknowswho]

I was torn on this episode. I've grown to love Capaldi, especially this season--he made a change in his personality this year I think, or maybe it was the combo of Pearl and Matt Lucas--but I enjoyed him so much this season, I don't want to see him go. I ADORED Bill and Nardole, and wish both could stay.
That said--we've had heavy handed pro-female stories with the Master being Missy, one of the Time Lords (whose name I forget) turned into a woman--I really DO NOT want a female Doctor. The Doctor is the Doctor, male or female--but for me personally if they can't handle a woman companion not wanting to hump The Doctor (think Amy, who I loved, but really--on her night before her wedding--she feels the urge to muck it up with the Doctor? Comeon...)--how will they handle a woman? Not for me--I will stop watching if that happens.

[HouseofBeck]

On 7/3/2017 at 4:03 AM, SVNBob said:

The Doctor actually gave a plausible reason.  He theorized that it was her months-long mental battle against the Monks' retcon of Earth history that had given her the strength and ability to counter the Cyberprogramming and retain her self-identity.

 

It was, at the end.  The last shot of the TARDIS interior had the Cloister Bell ringing.  Whether it was because of Twelve fighting his regeneration, or the timeline crossing, or both, I cannot say.

 

In addition to Heather's return, and Bill vs. the Monks, there was one other call-back to earlier in the series.  Missy's death sentence was carried out properly.  Recall that one of the conditions of said sentence was that her executioner had to be a Time Lord.  I'd say that getting shot in the back by a previous regeneration counts.

Oh yes--I meant I'd been waiting for it to go off earlier than that.

[Bruinsfan]

I don't mind Mickey's absence from the montage so much, it seemed like he traveled in the TARDIS for about 5 minutes and the Doctor was never all that fond of him. But Rory was a companion for what, two and a half seasons? Surely there's footage of Arthur Darvill yelling "Doctor!" from somewhere in that run.