S03.E10: Lantern

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

How's Jimmy Going To Ruin Things With Kim On Better Call Saul?

And more...uh...burning questions about the season finale, 'Lantern.'

[iMonrey]

Maybe I'm alone in this but I'm simply not that fascinated by Chuck. I've found him to be mostly just irritating over the last three seasons, and nobody will be happier than me if he's finally gone for good. I would have much preferred to have Mike in the finale than spend so much time on Chuck. I really thought Chuck should have been institutionalized years ago and nobody was doing him any favors by catering to his delusions. 

I was glad to see Jimmy do right by Irene - something he would never do after going full-on Saul Goodman. Unfortunately, I don't find Kim all that interesting either. She doesn't annoy me the way Chuck does but she's just not all that compelling to me. Overall the season picked up but I found the finale lacking, just as I do the series as a whole. The storytelling is there, but the story itself is pretty mundane. It relies more and more on bringing in Breaking Bad characters to keep up interest, it seems to me.

[Paloma]

Did anyone else notice that Kim showed much more physical affection to Jimmy in this episode than in most or even all previous episodes? We've seen them in bed together but mostly in a companionable, almost platonic way. In the past I've wondered about the lack of even mild physical affection and what it says about their relationship. Maybe Kim's close call with death made her appreciate Jimmy more, especially when she saw him trying to take care of her?

[SunnyBeBe]

2 minutes ago, Paloma said:

Did anyone else notice that Kim showed much more physical affection to Jimmy in this episode than in most or even all previous episodes? We've seen them in bed together but mostly in a companionable, almost platonic way. In the past I've wondered about the lack of even mild physical affection and what it says about their relationship. Maybe Kim's close call with death made her appreciate Jimmy more, especially when she saw him trying to take care of her?

This is a biggie to me.  I see Kim and Jimmy as more brother and sister than romantic.  I've never gotten that vibe.  I'm not sure why.  When I try to envision them.....it's akin to thinking of your parents....don't want to go there. 

[Addlepated]

Couple of things - 

First, when Chuck ripped his house apart (the bookshelves, not the bookshelves!), it was very reminiscent of when Mike ripped the car apart.  Both seemed like insane, methodical activities.  Only we know that one of them had purpose and one was a compulsion.

 

Second, I was almost positive that we would find out Chuck was staging the house every time he had a visitor.  That's why it took him so long to answer the door, because he had to turn on the breakers and lights.  But the scene of him alone, waking up and turning on the light, put an end to that.

[jww]

The opening may have been sweet, however the boys appeared to be about 8/18 when actually Chuck should be 20+ years older then Jimmy  since they are now 40 and 60+. It also appeared the tent was in a large grassy backyard in back of a large house; I always assumed the McGill family lived hand to mouth,  maybe in a small apartment above the store like Dobie Gillis. Was it Chuck's house and he was a young 30?

  It would have been a more fitting end for Chuck if he had been electrocuted when he smashed the meter.

Actually I think Chuck was being kind to Jimmy when he did not tell him their mother asked for him-it would have been a real guilt trip to realize you denied your mother's dying wish because you wanted to go out for lunch.

I was puzzled both this week and last how Hector could have swallowed the pills without any water.

[rue721]

3 minutes ago, TVFan17 said:

If he is dead, then I don't know what purpose a lot of flashbacks would have either.

If the show is open to flashbacks:  personally, I am still very interested in the manifestation of Chuck's "electricity allergy" and in the loss of Mr. McGill's store -- those seem to have been really big turning points in Jimmy's life *and* in Chuck's. I'm also still curious whether the current electricity allergy is the first time Chuck has struggled with illness. It might be, but it might not. Judging just by Chuck and Jimmy's relationship -- Chuck's resentment and Jimmy's solicitousness -- I would actually guess that it's fairly likely it's not.

If Chuck is dead, then I think that settling his estate might be a very big part of next season. Chuck might be very present in that way.

In any case, I think that Chuck's death is likely to devastate Jimmy, and it may feel like Chuck is looming over everything more than ever. What direction Jimmy careens off in at any given moment in the midst of that is anybody's guess, though.

9 minutes ago, Paloma said:

Did anyone else notice that Kim showed much more physical affection to Jimmy in this episode than in most or even all previous episodes?

Yes, I DEFINITELY noticed. It was really bothering me how little physical affection there was before, to be honest. Like how when Jimmy hurt his back, Kim didn't touch him at all. Maybe seeing Jimmy physically take care of her, worry about her physical well-being that way, was what made Kim want to be more physically demonstrative, too.

I thought it was adorable when Kim saw that Jimmy wanted to help her eat, and told him sardonically not to cross that line. I thought that was very sweet on both their parts. She let him fuss a little and he let her be a little independent. Very caring.

2 minutes ago, jww said:

Was it Chuck's house and he was a young 30?

I love that idea!

2 minutes ago, jww said:

Actually I think Chuck was being kind to Jimmy when he did not tell him their mother asked for him-it would have been a real guilt trip to realize you denied your mother's dying wish because you wanted to go out for lunch.

I don't really think that Chuck did it out of kindness, but in the end, I think it WAS a kindness. Just like Chuck giving Jimmy such a harsh kiss off and then telling him never to have regrets was probably not done out of kindness, either, but probably will still make things at least a little easier on Jimmy in some ways anyway.

[Dev F]

11 minutes ago, jww said:

The opening may have been sweet, however the boys appeared to be about 8/18 when actually Chuck should be 20+ years older then Jimmy  since they are now 40 and 60+. It also appeared the tent was in a large grassy backyard in back of a large house; I always assumed the McGill family lived hand to mouth,  maybe in a small apartment above the store like Dobie Gillis. Was it Chuck's house and he was a young 30?

Though Mike McKean is in his late sixties, Chuck is described as being in his late fifties in the last episode of season 2. Depending on what exactly that means (fifty-nine? fifty-seven?) and exactly how old Jimmy's supposed to be, there could potentially be as little as fifteen years between them.

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, ElsieH said:

When Jimmy was parked on the street and debating about whether to go knock on Chuck's door, did anyone else think the house in the background (way down towards the end of the street) looked like Jesse's house?

The two houses are in the same lAlbuquerque neighborhood, so it could be the case.

[Rolf]

I see a badly burned Chuck in a hospital bed... camera slowly moving to the right... there lies a pissed Hector Salamanca... next to him Tuco holding a gift in his hands...

[Eulipian 5k]

1 hour ago, Sentient Meat said:

What is our takeaway supposed to be from the passive aggressive confrontation of Howard and Kim in the restaurant?

The actor playing Howard felt that Howard was totally gracious in his encounter with Kim. (I felt Kim's umbrage, and was pissed ). He said Howard was appalled that Kim reacted so rudely as to pay off the Law school loan; "it was a gift!". Howard always sees the firm, HHM, as separate from himself, to be protected by him, and Chuck sees HHM as ALL him, Chuck. Howard was all right when he said Chuck's judgement was unreliable. Good god, what on earth was the benefit to the firm in pursuing Jimmy before the bar? It was petty and personal and tied up 2 senior partners for no billable hours, resulting in catastrophic damage to the firm's reputation.

[tennisgurl]

And so ends the great saga of Chuck and Jimmy. At least, I think this is the end. Honestly, I hope Chuck is dead, and that story has all been literally buried. I'm interested enough in Chuck and his relationship with Jimmy, but I think the storyline is over. Chuck better serves the plot dead than alive but seriously injured or something. Chuck has reached his climax as a character, finally brought down by his pride and bitterness, and he was killed by the very house that trapped him, literally going down in a flame of self destruction, after finally severing ties with his brother, business, and best friend. I have, in the past, felt bad for Chuck due to his mental illness, and his frustration over the fact that he has done everything "right", but people always seem to prefer the more roguish and "fun" Jimmy, but he was also an extremely bitter and mean person towards the end, and a lot of his problems, especially towards the end, were of his own making. It wasn't because of Jimmy or his illness or Howard. It was because his bitterness and hatred took over his life. There's really no more story for him.

This season has actually warmed me to Howard quite a bit, mainly because he really came off as the better guy next to Chuck and his pettiness. I'm glad he ended up "winning" in the feud with Howard, even though I can imagine he will feel pretty awful about Chucks death. As much as Chuck went on about how Howard "betrayed" him, I think Howard had the moral high ground on this one. I might be awful, but I was totally cheering when Howard had Chuck walk out of the building with everyone clapping, with Chuck trying to walk out with his head high. Plus, I can appreciate anyone who rocks out to smooth jazz as much as Howard.

Jimmy did one more good thing, getting the old people to hate him to help that other old lady he screwed over last week, which makes me wonder if this will push him further from Saul, or closer. I mean, on the one hand, it was clearly a purely altruistic gesture to help a nice old lady he messed with for money, which doesn't sound much like Saul in his BB days, BUT it will probably lead him away from fighting the good fight, and closer to criminal law, which will push him closer and closer to Saul land, more so than if he had stayed with representing the old people. Not that becoming a defense attorney leads people naturally to becoming an amoral criminal lawyer (" you need a criminal lawyer, you know what I'm saying" -Jessie Pinkman), but with Jimmy? Its just pushing him further and further towards that inevitable, sticky bun filled future.

Nacho has the best facial expressions, especially in dealing with Hector. He just so clearly just wants to punch the guy in the face several times, but he is just barley restraining himself. Nachos poor dad. He just wants to run an honest business, but now he is being dragged into his kids bullshit. Hope with Hectors stroke, this wont be an issue anymore. I wonder if we will get a team up between Nacho and Gus after this? Seems like Gus knew what Nacho was up to and covered for him, so maybe they can bond over their mutual hatred of Asshole of the Year Hector. Like, this guy is such a dick it seems like even the other drug lords cant stand the guy. After this, everyone tried not to smile too hard when they hear about this.  

[ghoulina]

3 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Well, it was refreshing that Jimmy turned back from the dark side, but what he did for Irene would be like intentionally setting her house on fire, but then changing his mind and putting it out.  Irene's friends were not "fair-weather" they were systematically and diabolically poisoned against her by Jimmy McGill.   It was nice that he was willing to sacrifice his reputation and quick payday to undo the damage he had done, though.

Yea. I was glad he fixed things for Irene's sake, but I won't so easily forget what he did in the first place. 

[ghoulina]

58 minutes ago, jww said:

It also appeared the tent was in a large grassy backyard in back of a large house; I always assumed the McGill family lived hand to mouth,  maybe in a small apartment above the store like Dobie Gillis. Was it Chuck's house and he was a young 30?

When they first showed the tent, my immediate thought was - the Kettlemans are back!

[SunnyBeBe]

I really hope that next season we don't see Chuck following Jimmy around, like a little angel on his shoulder, warning him and just torturing him for the heck of it.  Please no haunting by Chuck.  

[DrSpaceman73]

2 hours ago, kieyra said:

I get what you're saying, but on BB he also called Francesca "Honey Tits" in front of clients, made lewd comments about mail-order brides, and on at least one occasion was interrupted by Walter after having obviously just had an ... erotic massage? ... in his office. (His pants were unzipped and the ... massage therapist ... was leaving with her table.) I mean, being a little sexually skeevy/harassy doesn't make someone a bad person with a capital B, but I'm sure the show-runners wish they'd left out some of those broader strokes as the character grew and evolved (and became the subject of his own show). 

I do agree that he always tried to do right by Walter and Jesse, in the sense that he probably had multiple opportunities to sell them out or back-stab them and never did. And many of the really questionable things he did do (usually involving getting Walt in contact with hitmen) he did under considerable and stated duress.

Thanks for those who tried to answer my question about whether Chuck was dead. Since the show apparently hasn't been renewed yet, I'll say it for the record: if Chuck is really dead and they're ready to start setting up BB-era Saul in earnest, I'll be back for S5 with bells on.

(Love the idea that Rhea Seahorn mentioned, that Kim could still be in the picture in BB, just back at home. Maybe she's working elsewhere at the mall food court now. No, wait, we've seen Gene at home eating alone, scratch that.) 

I hope Kim is not still in the picture in BB.  I just can't see her willingly going the route of the passively endorsing wife/partner that just ignores or looks the other way as Jimmy practices in his new "law" firm. 

If she is still around, as sad as it would be to consider, I would much rather her being a willing participant in his schemes, Jimmy having worn her down and won her over to his side of things like we saw briefly last season.  That would actually be a more interesting story, in my opinion, than Jimmy's. 

[Bannon]

1 minute ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

I hope Kim is not still in the picture in BB.  I just can't see her willingly going the route of the passively endorsing wife/partner that just ignores or looks the other way as Jimmy practices in his new "law" firm. 

If she is still around, as sad as it would be to consider, I would much rather her being a willing participant in his schemes, Jimmy having worn her down and won her over to his side of things like we saw briefly last season.  That would actually be a more interesting story, in my opinion, than Jimmy's. 

Yeah, I can't see Kim either way, and I cannot see Jimmy fully becoming Saul until he has to endure a complete alienation from Kim. Soemthing really bad has to happen between these two, because as long as Kim is around, there is a leash on Jimmy's id. 

I think there's a good chance Kim ends up a partner at what will now be Hamllin & Hamlin, after Howard, once again being petty, removes the McGill name from the shingle. 

[Sentient Meat]

59 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

The actor playing Howard felt that Howard was totally gracious in his encounter with Kim. (I felt Kim's umbrage, and was pissed ). He said Howard was appalled that Kim reacted so rudely as to pay off the Law school loan; "it was a gift!". Howard always sees the firm, HHM, as separate from himself, to be protected by him, and Chuck sees HHM as ALL him, Chuck. Howard was all right when he said Chuck's judgement was unreliable. Good god, what on earth was the benefit to the firm in pursuing Jimmy before the bar? It was petty and personal and tied up 2 senior partners for no billable hours, resulting in catastrophic damage to the firm's reputation.

But do you really think the writers intend for our takeaway from the show to be... this nice guy's doing his best to fight the good fight and run a stand up law firm, but these annoying brothers and one of their girlfriends is ruining it for him?

[peeayebee]

1 hour ago, Eulipian 5k said:

The actor playing Howard felt that Howard was totally gracious in his encounter with Kim. (I felt Kim's umbrage, and was pissed ). He said Howard was appalled that Kim reacted so rudely as to pay off the Law school loan; "it was a gift!". Howard always sees the firm, HHM, as separate from himself, to be protected by him, and Chuck sees HHM as ALL him, Chuck. 

I still don't have a good handle on Howard's character. 

[Blakeston]

Howard has had moments where he's been a major jerk. For example:

- Taking Jimmy aside at his passing-the-bar celebration to break the news that he can't be a lawyer at their firm (and taking a piece of the cake).

- His insistence on keeping Kim in document review indefinitely, even after she brought in a huge new client.

- His "sit down, Kim" maneuver in front of the Mesa Verde people.

- Having the audacity to say that his firm couldn't hire Jimmy because they have to avoid the appearance of nepotism.

I'd say he's a complicated person, who's capable of being very magnanimous at some times, and very petty at others.

[riverheightsnancy]

8 hours ago, luna1122 said:

I was half convinced, when Kim was looking at her calendar and then slumped and decided to go all movie/queso binge mode instead of working, that she'd just realized she was pregnant or something. Guess not.

 

Yes,  I was wondering what that was about too. If she is pregnant, she should not be taking pain meds that are opiate based. However, hospitals generally do a pregnancy test on any woman of child bearing age when they come into the emergency department. It is standard practice where I live. 

[SunnyBeBe]

28 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

Howard has had moments where he's been a major jerk. For example:

- Taking Jimmy aside at his passing-the-bar celebration to break the news that he can't be a lawyer at their firm (and taking a piece of the cake).

- His insistence on keeping Kim in document review indefinitely, even after she brought in a huge new client.

- His "sit down, Kim" maneuver in front of the Mesa Verde people.

- Having the audacity to say that his firm couldn't hire Jimmy because they have to avoid the appearance of nepotism.

I'd say he's a complicated person, who's capable of being very magnanimous at some times, and very petty at others.

Good points. I thought of him that way too, but, last night on the aftershow....he seemed pretty full of himself and his good intentions... 

[Jextella]

31 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

Howard has had moments where he's been a major jerk. For example:

- Taking Jimmy aside at his passing-the-bar celebration to break the news that he can't be a lawyer at their firm (and taking a piece of the cake).

- His insistence on keeping Kim in document review indefinitely, even after she brought in a huge new client.

- His "sit down, Kim" maneuver in front of the Mesa Verde people.

- Having the audacity to say that his firm couldn't hire Jimmy because they have to avoid the appearance of nepotism.

I'd say he's a complicated person, who's capable of being very magnanimous at some times, and very petty at others.

My two cents is that each of the above has been done as a means of deferring to Chuck or induced by anxiety caused by loosing clients/income (which Chuck's 2 year sabbatical hasn't likely helped with).

On Talking Saul, Patrick Fabian talked a bit about this.  His character has been above board - honest, patient, and generous.  He comes off as smarmy but at the core, he's a genuninely good guy trying to do the right thing at every turn (so far as we know at this juncture).

I am dying to know more about Howard - including the second H in HHM.

[ShadowFacts]

Little side notes --

Kim has a really nice, spacious apartment.  I think previously I only remember seeing her bedroom and bathroom.  Now she can enjoy it for awhile.

Francesca was a go-getter concerning orchestrating all the ducks Kim had to get in a row.  Too bad she has to head back to the Motor Vehicles hell.

When Hector went looking for Nacho's Papi to go taunt him, I couldn't wait for the angina attack or whatever was going to befall him.  What a complete and utter asshole. 

Between the writing and Bob Odenkirk's acting, that chair yoga sequence was a gem.  He so totally knows how to talk to these people, reassuring them that their teacher's child would be fine, just a cold, and actually knowing the yoga poses.  Very well done.

[loki567]

I'm curious where the show goes with Howard moving forward. The only way I can seem them keeping him as a full-time cast member is if Jimmy aims all of his guilt about Chuck's death at HHM.  I could vaguely see him trying to destroy the company if he learns about Howard's role in driving Chuck over the edge. Also could potentially drag Kim into it, which could leak to a possible strain on their relationship. 

[Eulipian 5k]

Did Jimmy hear of Chuck's leaving HHM? Is that why he came by to check on him? They never had time to show if he knew but I'm inferring he heard about the "retirement".

Also, a caution all those who heard the "the answer is always the good stuff" Don't you dare! It's bad enough that she had the accident; don't you dare even think! about Kim and opiates.  She ran off to Canada with Nacho, that's why she's not in BB.

Edited June 20, 2017 by Eulipian 5k
preposition, semi-colon

[rue721]

1 minute ago, Jextella said:

He comes off as smarmy but at the core, he's a genuninely good guy trying to do the right thing at every turn (so far as we know at this juncture).

Yes, I agree with this.

Unlike any of the other characters, I think that Howard is very comfortable with his role in life. He was born to do what he's doing. I mean literally -- he's the heir apparent. He's carrying out his father's legacy.

All the other characters are misfits to one degree or another, but not Howard.

I don't think he's a bad person. In fact, I think he's generous and patient. But he's totally lacking in charm or a sense of humor, and I honestly wouldn't want to spend more than 5 minutes with him at a stretch. Oh well, can't have everything!

11 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Did Jimmy hear of Chuck's leaving HHM? Is that why he came by to check on him?

I don't think so. Kim's accident seemed like it was a wake-up call for Jimmy. I think that it was like he said -- he needed to know that Chuck was OK. And he was ready to make amends with him, too. But Chuck shat all over that idea. Did a fucking Chicago sunroof on it, if I'm being honest ;)

[Eulipian 5k]

59 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

Howard has had moments where he's been a major jerk. For example:

- Taking Jimmy aside at his passing-the-bar celebration to break the news that he can't be a lawyer at their firm (and taking a piece of the cake).

- His insistence on keeping Kim in document review indefinitely, even after she brought in a huge new client.

- His "sit down, Kim" maneuver in front of the Mesa Verde people.

- Having the audacity to say that his firm couldn't hire Jimmy because they have to avoid the appearance of nepotism.

The first and last bullet points were stated, during last season, to be at Chuck's, and only Chuck's, insistence. The second and third is all on Howard, but neither makes him a jerk, just a snooty law firm partner. But you knew that from the suits, the collar bars, and the primping.

[rue721]

31 minutes ago, loki567 said:

The only way I can seem them keeping him as a full-time cast member is if Jimmy aims all of his guilt about Chuck's death at HHM.

What if Jimmy inherits Chuck's equity in the firm?!

[Bannon]

2 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

The first and last bullet points were stated, during last season, to be at Chuck's, and only Chuck's, insistence. The second and third is all on Howard, but neither makes him a jerk, just a snooty law firm partner. But you knew that from the suits, the collar bars, and the primping.

I wouldnt say Howard's a bad guy, but he's shown nothing in three seasons to indicate that he is a competent manager of a business, and a lot that indicates that he is below average. He's also never been portrayed as being a particularly good lawyer, to the point that he chose to rely on a mentally ill guy in foil lined suitcoat, to help retain an important client. 

4 minutes ago, rue721 said:

What if Jimmy inherits Chuck's equity in the firm?!

It would be pretty noncredible to wrote it that Chuck wrote his will to leave his equity in a law firm to a brother that Chuck thinks of, in terms of the law, as being a chimp with a machine gun.

[ShadowFacts]

4 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I wouldnt say Howard's a bad guy, but he's shown nothing in three seasons to indicate that he is a competent manager of a business, and a lot that indicates that he is below average. He's also never been portrayed as being a particularly good lawyer, to the point that he chose to rely on a mentally ill guy in foil lined suitcoat, to help retain an important client. 

Howard also stumbled when he agreed to Chuck's plan to hire round-the-clock private investigators and entice Jimmy with news that a tape existed.  His initial reaction was the correct one, that using the tape would do nothing to get MV back and would only make HHM look bad.  Being part of that led to a cascade of events which ended up with the malpractice insurer putting the squeeze on the whole firm. 

9 minutes ago, Bannon said:

It would be pretty noncredible to wrote it that Chuck wrote his will to leave his equity in a law firm to a brother that Chuck thinks of, in terms of the law, as being a chimp with a machine gun.

Perhaps a most excellent way to stick it to Howard.  Having Jimmy spar with Howard over Chuck's estate is the most direct way to keep Howard in the show.  But maybe these writers will surprise me.

[Bannon]

8 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

Howard also stumbled when he agreed to Chuck's plan to hire round-the-clock private investigators and entice Jimmy with news that a tape existed.  His initial reaction was the correct one, that using the tape would do nothing to get MV back and would only make HHM look bad.  Being part of that led to a cascade of events which ended up with the malpractice insurer putting the squeeze on the whole firm. 

Perhaps a most excellent way to stick it to Howard.  Having Jimmy spar with Howard over Chuck's estate is the most direct way to keep Howard in the show.  But maybe these writers will surprise me.

Yeah, pro tip to all the senior partners in largish, successful, law firms out there; things don't improve by pretending that your other senior partner can continue to function while living like it is 1850, and settling childhood family vendettas is the top priority.

Edited June 20, 2017 by Bannon

[ItsHelloPattiagain]

I found myself yelling at Chuck when he was demolishing the electric meter  - "You're going to set your house on fire, you dummy"! :s

Don't electric meters still run if you have things like the fridge or the AC on? Or perhaps it appeared to be spinning faster because Chuck was losing his mind. 

I'm the youngest sibling and I adore(d) my big brother who is ten years older. Even now when I'm in my late 50s. I can see how Chuck used the power of Jimmy's adoration to wound him with words. Just about broke my heart. Chuck knew exactly how to hurt his brother. 

Howard reminds me of a lot of characters in the BB/ BCS universe. Sometimes they are good. Sometimes they suck. Sometimes they're a hot mess and sometimes they have ulterior motives, but they are NEVER just black or white, good or evil

Wouldn't it be ironic if Jimmy/Saul somehow ended up with a bunch of money from Chuck's estate (assuming he died). 

[SnarkAttack]

19 hours ago, zibnchy said:

I think Chuck hates Jimmy and was trying (and succeeding) to hurt him bad.

I was wondering why we had to watch all that nonsense with Chuck. I would MUCH rather watch Kim watch movies.

Bye Chuck. I hope Jimmy doesn't feel any guilt.

Wonder who Chuck left his money to.

I wonder that too.

[Jextella]

2 hours ago, rue721 said:

What if Jimmy inherits Chuck's equity in the firm?!

My guess is that Jimmy blew his Sandpiper paycheck and likely anything Chuck had coming to him from HHM.    Things may come up roses for Howard!  The Sandpipier money may put HHM back on its feet.

As to whether or not Chuck dies...my guess is that he does.  Being rescued or having a change of heart and escaping would be too cheesy and too simplistic for this show.  Me thinks Chuck is toast.  Literally (is that cruel?!).  Odds are he'll be back in flashbacks.  The contrast between the boys in the tent at the beginning of the show and Chuck shutting Jimmy out only to spiral into madness and ultimately suicide makes the chasm between them even more extreme and I would like to know the root cause.

I'm not sure the writers feel the same.  BB left us with quite a few unanswered questions, and I suppose this question may go unanswered as well.  

But...for me, I got plenty of the drug stuff from BB. I like Saul's story and don't feel the need to jump back into a BB re-do.

Edited June 20, 2017 by Jextella

[zenarcher]

2 hours ago, Bannon said:

Yeah, I can't see Kim either way, and I cannot see Jimmy fully becoming Saul until he has to endure a complete alienation from Kim. Soemthing really bad has to happen between these two, because as long as Kim is around, there is a leash on Jimmy's id. 

I think there's a good chance Kim ends up a partner at what will now be Hamllin & Hamlin, after Howard, once again being petty, removes the McGill name from the shingle. 

Seems to me that Kim has been signaling a change in direction. First she felt pretty bad about having gone after Chuck in court. Then ditching work for repeat showings of Mockingbird with the confesssion that she wanted to be Atticus and bemoaning the type of lawyer she became. Add to this any possible guilt she might feel for Chuck Roast and I can see her wanting to become a more idealistic lawyer. Pretty much the opposite of where Jimmy is heading as Saul. 

[queenanne]

I'm *willing to* like Howard unreservedly depending upon what happens in future, but I think the writing for him that we've had is chock full of ambiguity. You have to be careful about what an actor says, because a good actor loves their character even when they're despicable - you'd have to, in order to create anything approximating a relatively rounded recognizable human - and just because he's playing XYZ, doesn't mean the writer intends it to come off like XYZ, or is writing the logical culmination of XYZ.  

[smorbie]

2 hours ago, Jextella said:

My two cents is that each of the above has been done as a means of deferring to Chuck or induced by anxiety caused by loosing clients/income (which Chuck's 2 year sabbatical hasn't likely helped with).

On Talking Saul, Patrick Fabian talked a bit about this.  His character has been above board - honest, patient, and generous.  He comes off as smarmy but at the core, he's a genuninely good guy trying to do the right thing at every turn (so far as we know at this juncture).

I am dying to know more about Howard - including the second H in HHM.

He is the second H.  The firm is Hamlin (his father), Hamlin (Howard) and McGill (Chuck).

[smorbie]

20 minutes ago, Jextella said:

My guess is that Jimmy blew his Sandpiper paycheck and likely anything Chuck had coming to him from HHM.    Things may come up roses for Howard!  The Sandpipier money may put HHM back on its feet.

As to whether or not Chuck dies...my guess is that he does.  Being rescued or having a change of heart and escaping would be too cheesy and too simplistic for this show.  Me thinks Chuck is toast.  Literally (is that cruel?!).  Odds are he'll be back in flashbacks.  The contrast between the boys in the tent at the beginning of the show and Chuck shutting Jimmy out only to spiral into madness and ultimately suicide leaves makes the chasm between them even more extreme and I would like to know the cause.

I'm not sure the writers feel the same.  BB left us with quite a few unanswered questions, and I suppose this question may go unanswered as well.  

But...for me, I got plenty of the drug stuff from BB. I like Saul's story and don't feel the need to jump back into a BB re-do.

Me, too. I don't even pay attention when it starts.  I hear Spanish and I tune out.  I hear the word cartel and I find somewhere else to be if I can't fast forward.  And I feel the same way about Mike.  I was interested in his story to be begin with, but that soon died.

I really am only interested in following Jimmy's story.

[rhys]

Haha Chuck roast. Nice

[DrSpaceman73]

2 hours ago, smorbie said:

Me, too. I don't even pay attention when it starts.  I hear Spanish and I tune out.  I hear the word cartel and I find somewhere else to be if I can't fast forward.  And I feel the same way about Mike.  I was interested in his story to be begin with, but that soon died.

I really am only interested in following Jimmy's story.

I am the exact opposite.

 

I have had far too much of Jimmy and Chuck and hope to God CHuck is dead just for that reason.  I really did not need 3 seasons of that. 

 

I find the drug cartel stuff far more interesting than a petty sibling law squabble.

[Gobi]

13 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

Unless he left a note, which I'm doubtful about given the way he was behaving, no one will know it is suicide, it will be hard to tell that it was not accidental given how he ripped up the house. 

 

I agree.  Howard surprised me in that he dove into his personal fortune and took out loans to get rid of Chuck, but the total humiliation he heaped on Chuck with that theatrical farewell was just awful.  So cringeworthy.  He was taking a victory lap under cover of good manners when he knew he would be driving a stake through Chuck's heart.   There was absolutely no need to do that.

I didn't see it that way. I think Howard wanted to make it clear to Chuck that he was gone, and there was no way to wriggle out of it.

[Cthulhudrew]

20 hours ago, Diamond Dog said:

I'm actually like Howard now. He finally got rid of Chuck. Kim's words may have finally sunk in. 

Yeah, I feel bad for him. He's watched everyone he admired and cared about turn out to be something other than expected. Jimmy turns out to be the con-man his brother said he was; Chuck turns out to be the crackpot Jimmy said he was; and Kim ends up condoning unethical behavior and turns out to be less scrupulous than he thought she was. He's been kind of super dickish at times (with Kim a few episodes back and with Jimmy early on- even though he was doing it ostensibly to help Chuck maintain his relationship with his brother.) He must be feeling pretty isolated and betrayed all around.

[Ellaria]

21 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

If I didn't already love Kim, her love for Atticus Finch would have pretty much sealed it.  One of my favorite character/performances of all film!

Completely agree. Happy to share a love of Atticus Finch with you and Kim.

What a haunting, brilliant episode! Love Kim and Jimmy trying to reconfigure their future again. When their break comes - and I'm sure it will - it will be heartbreaking. I like them as a couple in spite of their dysfunction.

Adios, Chuck. It is hard for me to have sympathy for him but, wow, no one should go out like that. And I think that he is most definitely dead. 

Glad that Jimmy did the right thing by dear Irene. He still has a bit of a soul and I will hate when it's gone completely. I enjoy Jimmy and dread his final descent to the dark side.

I cheered when Hector Salamanca collapsed. Yes, I know that's cruel but I cannot recall another character on TV that I hate as much as Hector.

Fabulous performances all around this season, especially Rhea Seehorn, Michael Mando and the always amazing Giancarlo Esposito. I am thrilled that Gus has returned.

Finally, BCS has been the best thing on TV this season. Hoping for some long overdue Emmy recognition.

[FlyingEgret]

38 minutes ago, Gobi said:

I didn't see it that way. I think Howard wanted to make it clear to Chuck that he was gone, and there was no way to wriggle out of it.

Agree.  And at the same time Howard let the rest of the attorneys and employees know that Chuck no longer works there in case Chuck tried to coerce info or files from them.

Also, the whole time Chuck was destroying his house I kept thinking there was a hard wired smoke detector he was missing; the destruction of which would lead to his demise

[MisterBluxom]

3 hours ago, SnarkAttack said:

I wonder that too.

Whoever it is may have to face several hurdles to get it.

If you were Jimmy, wouldn't you try to contest that anyone who Chuck left the money to shouldn't get it because Chuck was clearly insane?  It would be a real adventure for lawyers who specialize in contesting wills.

Seems like a huge mess just waiting to happen. The lawyers would probably get at least half of all money while the litigants would be lucky to get anything within 5 years.

A real big mess.

Edited June 21, 2017 by MissBluxom

[shapeshifter]

22 hours ago, Ohwell said:

I hope Chuck is truly, fucking dead.  I DO NOT want to see him next season!

Not even in the hospital bed next to Hector's?

When he started chopping the house apart, all I could think of was: Sheesh, Chuck. You got $3 mill in the hand and more on the way and likely more money previously saved than I'll ever retire with; why didn't you long ago buy a cabin in the woods with no electricity? 

So I guess he doesn't need to have something arranged so he'll be saved and get insurance money for the house so he can go live in a power free shack—which points in the direction of suicide him wanting to cover up his crazy pants destruction of his house so he can retain dignity.

And in his own mind, Chuck may have been doing Jimmy a "kindness" by saying their relationship didn't mean anything so Jimmy wouldn't be troubled by his death; again, in his own mind, like we speculated he did when he didn't tell Jimmy his mother asked for her on her deathbed (someone else upthread thought this too).

 

 

22 hours ago, zibnchy said:

I think Chuck hates Jimmy and was trying (and succeeding) to hurt him bad.

I was wondering why we had to watch all that nonsense with Chuck. I would MUCH rather watch Kim watch movies.

Bye Chuck. I hope Jimmy doesn't feel any guilt.

Wonder who Chuck left his money to.

I can imagine Chuck leaving a million to Kim with the restriction that she dissasociate herself from Jimmy and Jimmy insisting she does it. Maybe Jimmy even has an initial scheme of changing his name to Saul Goodman to beat such terms of a will. Anyway, the rest of Chuck's money would be left to the study of electromagnetic sensitivities in mammals.

Jimmy concluding that he was only good at tearing down [people], not building, makes me think that the Irene results make him decide to stick to working with criminals so he doesn't have to worry about any innocents getting hurt. But doesn't he ultimately get involved in the Brock poisoning via Huel?

This season/episode makes me think Jimmy/Saul/Gene will rise from the ashes of Cinnabon to at least do scams again.

 

14 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

…Howard surprised me in that he dove into his personal fortune and took out loans to get rid of Chuck, but the total humiliation he heaped on Chuck with that theatrical farewell was just awful.  So cringeworthy.  He was taking a victory lap under cover of good manners when he knew he would be driving a stake through Chuck's heart.   There was absolutely no need to do that.

Oh, I think it was necessary for Howard to box Chuck into a fairwell he couldn't escape from.

 

9 hours ago, PreviouslyTV said:

And more...uh...burning questions about the season finale, 'Lantern.'

Quote

[Kim] stops Jimmy throwing out his Rolodex full of senior clients: he's pretty sure he's been blackballed by all the cottontops in the area after his chair yoga massacre and will need to cultivate a whole new clientele, but Kim tells him, "You never know."

View the full article

I like to think that in one of those moments of extremely sharp lucidity that the elderly often have, Irene knows that Jimmy sacrificed himself for her.

[Irlandesa]

5 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Good points. I thought of him that way too, but, last night on the aftershow....he seemed pretty full of himself and his good intentions... 

I think he was accurate in his interpretation of his character.   I do think Howard probably has made decisions based on what he thought was best for the firm.  Whether or not it's true or it was effective is up for debate but I 100% believe he thinks it's his motivation and, in most cases, likely was.  We learned last night that he has been around for a lot more of the firm's growth than I used to believe which is why he was willing to reach into his own pocket to get Chuck away from it.

Keeping Chuck on even after he fell ill made sense.  Chuck didn't appear to be practicing law or coming into the office.  And the firm certainly couldn't afford to buy him out.  Chuck choosing to continue his feud with Jimmy and the blowback starting to hurt the firm was the turning point where Howard realized keeping him was going to hurt the firm more.  Still, he tried to find ways to keep Chuck active in the law while not active with the firm.

That doesn't mean some of his intentions didn't come off as a bit dickish.  For instance, when he went over to greet Kim, he could have seen it as being polite and gracious.  Kim, understandably, probably felt he was being condescending.  Some of that probably radiated from him but some if also likely came from her continued unease over how she got Mesa Verde.

 

4 hours ago, Bannon said:

 He's also never been portrayed as being a particularly good lawyer, to the point that he chose to rely on a mentally ill guy in foil lined suitcoat, to help retain an important client. 

 

He relied on Chuck because he realized Kim had the personal connection to Mesa Verde.  The one thing he had that could counter that connection was the banking law expert. And he was right.  He kept the account. And Chuck did a great job with it. 

I really like how they book ended Chuck's appearances at HHM.  When we first saw him there, Howard carefully made sure all electronics were put away and that Chuck was greeted warmly with applause.  And in this episode, he was escorted out with warm applause.  It was probably a humiliation for Chuck but I don't think it was public.  The partners knew Chuck was basically getting the boot but for the employees, this probably felt like an inevitable goodbye since Chuck hadn't been a regular presence at the office for years.

[Bannon]

16 minutes ago, Irlandesa said:

I think he was accurate in his interpretation of his character.   I do think Howard probably has made decisions based on what he thought was best for the firm.  Whether or not it's true or it was effective is up for debate but I 100% believe he thinks it's his motivation and, in most cases, likely was.  We learned last night that he has been around for a lot more of the firm's growth than I used to believe which is why he was willing to reach into his own pocket to get Chuck away from it.

Keeping Chuck on even after he fell ill made sense.  Chuck didn't appear to be practicing law or coming into the office.  And the firm certainly couldn't afford to buy him out.  Chuck choosing to continue his feud with Jimmy and the blowback starting to hurt the firm was the turning point where Howard realized keeping him was going to hurt the firm more.  Still, he tried to find ways to keep Chuck active in the law while not active with the firm.

That doesn't mean some of his intentions didn't come off as a bit dickish.  For instance, when he went over to greet Kim, he could have seen it as being polite and gracious.  Kim, understandably, probably felt he was being condescending.  Some of that probably radiated from him but some if also likely came from her continued unease over how she got Mesa Verde.

 

He relied on Chuck because he realized Kim had the personal connection to Mesa Verde.  The one thing he had that could counter that connection was the banking law expert. And he was right.  He kept the account. And Chuck did a great job with it. 

I really like how they book ended Chuck's appearances at HHM.  When we first saw him there, Howard carefully made sure all electronics were put away and that Chuck was greeted warmly with applause.  And in this episode, he was escorted out with warm applause.  It was probably a humiliation for Chuck but I don't think it was public.  The partners knew Chuck was basically getting the boot but for the employees, this probably felt like an inevitable goodbye since Chuck hadn't been a regular presence at the office for years.

Just because you get the short term result desired doesnt mean the overall plan didn't suck, just like yes, you can hit on 19 when playing Blackjack, and draw a two, but hitting on 19 is still dumb. If your business plan for your good-sized law firm is "When we need to, we'll rely on our senior partner who thinks electricity is attacking him, to the point that if our professional liability insurer ever finds out about it, they'll double the rates for every lawyer in the firm",  then you need to re-evaluate the plan, and question the judgement of the person who thought it was an acceptable plan.

[SnarkyTart]

18 hours ago, dwmarch said:

I think Chuck is dead.

Chuck's last legal battle was a humiliating defeat in front of the bar, punked by a cell phone battery of all things. His pride was deeply wounded and he wanted to prove he was every bit the lawyer he used to be before his illness. But Howard wouldn't let him play. So now Chuck has to prove himself twice as much, both to his firm and to the legal community at large. He gears up for a fight, fends off his illness to the point where even he barely notices it and gets ready to reclaim his good name. This is the case Chuck was born for, the ultimate injustice that he was sure he could fix! But Howard deflates him by buying out, going into personal debt to do so (and how much do you have to hate someone to pay them millions out of your own pocket to make them go away?!?!). Chuck has no brother, no friends, no job, no purpose and no way to bring himself back up to where he once was. So he tells Jimmy off and commits suicide.

He's not only merely dead, he's really most sincerely dead.

I very much appreciated Michael McKean's understanding of Chuck when asked about it on Talking Saul last night.  It's his interpretation that Chuck is totally lacking in self-awareness and self-reflection.  McKean's interpretation of Chuck makes me think perhaps Chuck didn't commit suicide because he couldn't deal with all the loss and devastation in his life.  He was still trying to master his electricity illness when he first woke up in bed to write in his medical progress journal and take a pill.  Initially, in that scene he was still doing the color-naming therapy technique from Dr. Cruz.  It's possible that Chuck committed suicide because his illness, which he still believes is real, is slipping out of his control again.  After tearing his whole house apart, he still couldn't find whatever spark of electricity the meter was recording.  Unable to stop what he believed was the true source of his misery, the electricity, he had no choice but to kill himself to escape the torture of it.  Of course, Chuck's electricity illness is psychosomatic and represents Chuck's inability to resolve, let alone recognize, his psychological conflicts, of which Jimmy is a huge part.  But Chuck doesn't realize that.   His electrical illness is real to Chuck, and failing to master it, he couldn't live with it anymore.