S03.E08: The Book of Nora

[DarkRaichu]

Conclusion: Nora could not tie a knot as we saw the goat walked away free after it ate the veggies Nora gave it.

So Kevin's heart condition could be used to scientifically explained his "deaths" and "resurrections".  That could be a "nicer story" depending on viewers' points of view.

I am leaning towards Nora telling a lie.  I cannot see the inventor could re-create the machine out of memory (he could not have brought his notes to the other side).  Even if he could I would say it would have been very difficult to procure all materials needed with just 4% of world population on the other side.

Also her telling a lie would be in line with her personality as she was the one who always needed to expose other people's lies while holding onto her own lies.

Edited June 5, 2017 by DarkRaichu

[stagmania]

1 hour ago, txhorns79 said:

I thought his strategy in trying to renew things with her was so strange, and it wasn't clear to me why he thought Nora would be into it.  I mean, he was essentially trying to convince her that her memories of their past relationship were false and that she was crazy to think the relationship had happened.  It felt like it was done more to misdirect the audience about what had happened to Nora after she went into machine than to be a believable action on the part of a character.  .   

I think the first time he said it was meant to confuse both Nora and the audience-wait, are we in an alternate timeline? Did Kevin lose memory after one too many trips to the other place? Is he just fucking with her? But over the course of their conversation on the porch and then at the wedding, I thought they gave us plenty of hints as to what he was doing. He kept having emotional reactions that didn't make sense with the story he was telling. The most clear being "I thought you'd be there" about Matt's funeral, and saying he hadn't ever moved on because he was still holding a candle for her. He was slipping up constantly. By the time they were dancing, Nora (and we) knew full well that he remembered everything and was just misguidedly trying to give them a clean slate. She rejected it, choosing to confront the truth.

Sidenote: if Justin Theroux actually ages the way that Kevin did, KUDOS.

[Cardie]

http://www.vulture.com/2017/06/leftovers-finale-behind-the-scenes-exclusive.html?utm_campaign=vulture&utm_medium=s1&utm_source=fb

This is very, very long but explains the various story-telling choices they made. On Nora's story, the condensed version is that Lindelof had wanted the quantum explanation from the beginning but Perrotta, author of the novel, was dead set against it. The compromise was to leave Nora's story ambiguous, partly by not showing it but letting Coon sell it (or not.)

Edited June 5, 2017 by Cardie

[Joimiaroxeu]

Meh, I think one person's "it's a nicer story" is another person's "you're trying to gaslight me" unless the person telling the lie actually believes it for their own psychic survival. I think Kevin knew he was lying to Nora about not remembering their true history together but she believes she did travel to the alternate reality to see her children. Kevin realizes that and accepts it because he loves her. If Nora is deliberately lying to Kevin about the fundamental reason she's stayed away from him all this time then IMO she's a cruel person who probably isn't capable of actual love.

Is that stuff with the sin goats and the love doves a real thing? Seems to me like it would be potentially harmful to the animals and the environment and there'd be public movements if not laws against doing it.

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My only gripe is that way too much time was spent with Nora riding around on that rickety-ass bike of hers.

Heh, it got to the point where whenever they showed her furiously pedaling the bike I heard the flying monkeys music from The Wizard of Oz.

[ShellSeeker]

Quote

And is it just my imagination, or was the terrain actually flat, but it was shot as if she was climbing a steep slope, because symbolically that's precisely what it was for her? And she fell all the way back down, but she persisted, finally struggling to scale that last, hardest, metaphysical slope. And when she reached the scapegoat, she removed the Sin Beads and put them on herself, finally owning her own shit. Freeing the literal scapegoat, and finally freeing herself. 

I am so glad someone else noticed this, because I saw it that way too. When she saw the goat stuck in the fence, she wasn't looking uphill. Then all of a sudden she was climbing up towards it, and I was confused.

I just can’t get over how much I loved this finale. It was such a perfect way to end it. I’m in the minority in that I wasn’t enraged by how Lost wrapped up, so maybe I’m just easy to please (ha). In my view, the ending of the Sopranos was much more infuriating, but that’s neither here nor there.

I am in the camp that Nora was telling the truth about what happened. The previous scenes included one where she told Kevin she’d tried to track down the people who had used the device, and they’d all vanished without a trace. So that was telling for me -- the implication was that they'd gone through to the other side and stayed there. I also think that she was bound and determined to go through with it, and nothing was going to change her mind. She’d made her peace with her choice, and that was that. I think she expected it to be a suicide mission, and then found that it wasn’t.

When she opened her mouth right before the liquid completely engulfed her, I thought she was taking a deep breath, since the physicists told her she’d have to hold her breath for 30 seconds. I also don’t think she could have created that story on her own. And I don’t mean that derisively. I mean that Nora is very of-this-world. She’s focused on the tangible: what can be seen, touched, and proven to be true. I identify quite a bit with Nora because I’m the same way in that respect. There’s no way I could imagine something like that myself. And yes, it’s hard to reconcile her longing to be with her children with her choice to leave them in the alternate universe. But for Nora, the source of her anguish (and everyone else’s who lost people in the Departure) was that her kids were, not lost, but, as she put it, “just gone.” In that context I can buy that finally finding out what happened to them, seeing that they were safe and happy, and that they had moved on, was enough for her.

Someone upthread said they didn't believe her because so much time had passed, because surely the guy who created the machine would have created another one on the other side. I can hand-wave that, because when Kevin and Nora meet up again, about 15 years have passed (based on him saying that his father had just turned 91). So the Departure was 22 years ago. It took 7 years to create the first machine. Nora said it took "a long time" to get from Australia to NY, because planes don't really fly there, so she had to get there by boat. Then she had to track down the guy who created the machine, which she also said took "a long time." Then it probably took some time for him to build it, since it would be harder to do that with a lot fewer scientists to help him track down all the materials needed for it and to construct it. So I can believe that she was in the other world for as long as a few years, and perhaps only returned to this one 7 or 10 years ago. And who knows -- maybe the guy who built the first machine asked people in the other world if they wanted to return, and after they'd been there for 7 years, decided they wanted to stay put? Surely some people have gotten together and had children in that world -- would they be able to exist in this one? Or maybe by now, other people have used the device to return, and we just didn't hear about it in the show. 

What I loved about this is that there's ample "evidence" for people to believe that Nora was telling the truth, or that she was telling "the nicer story." I just loved the whole idea that everyone who departed was living in an opposite reality where 98% of the world's populated vanished. It's really quite beautiful and elegant in its simplicity. When Nora told Kevin that she was in a world where "they lost us," I am pretty sure I audibly gasped, and teared up a little bit.

I'm really going to miss this show. But I'm happy that it ended on a more uplifting note. These characters endured so much trauma and pain over the course of the series -- not just Kevin and Nora, but John, Erica, Laurie (so glad she didn't kill herself), Tom, Jill, and everyone else. Even though Matt succumbed to his illness, he did find some peace and it seemed like he was able to reconcile with Mary and be a father to his son in the time he had left.

[Blakeston]

I can't fathom Nora walking away from her children on the other side. If 98% of the world's population had disappeared, including my mother, I'd sure as hell want to know that she was okay, and that the rest of humankind was still out there, living their lives. I'd be furious if I found out that she'd travelled to another dimension to find me, and then chose not to establish contact.

I can understand her being way after Lily didn't recognize her, but her kids were significantly older. There's no way they wouldn't know she was their mother.

[sd dude]

I loved the finale that brought a happy beginning to Kevin's and Nora's journey and relationship.  Their first seven years were just a rocky courtship, followed by an extended hiatus.  Now that they have each healed individually, they can begin to grow their love together for what will hopefully be a long stretch of middle and golden years.  I thought the closing scene was quite beautiful with Nora's simple line, "I'm here," followed by her ever widening smile.  Indeed, she was "here" actually 100% in the present moment perhaps for the first time since the departure, and I honestly can't recall another time the character ever smiled, other than occasional hysterical laughter, scoffing smirks, and derisive grins, but this time it was an honest expression of joy and serenity.  Well played by Coon.

The only thing that irked me about the finale was Laurie's appearance.  It's a small thing really, since this story was wholly about Kevin and Nora, and the only reason they wrote the Laurie scene in the first place is for the surprise (!) reveal that she actually survived.  Now, I don't have a strong dislike for the character, no strong feelings either way actually, so whether the character lives or dies has little effect for me.  However, I am annoyed by what appears to be a huge fake out based on Laurie's prior episode where the only anvil missing that Laurie killed herself is the one that she apparently failed to tie to her leg.  Sure, it is 100% feasible that she simply went down for a dive and came back up again. . .except every part of the narrative in that episode implied that she was going to end her life, from Nora's introduction of the idea, to seeking closure with Kevin and revealing never before revealed secrets to him, giving away her precious possessions ("I don't need it anymore"), and having that final conversation with her children.  Laurie enters the water, aaaaand credits.  Perhaps she did intend to die and had a change of heart while submerged but it would be nice to have seen some acknowledgement and explanation of that.  Without Laurie's final scene, we are left with the same ambiguity we are given for so many other questions and I would have preferred it was left that way, especially since so many hints were given during the prior episode that left fairly little ambiguity in my mind.  Eh, I suppose Laurie's next to last appearance was very much a Soprano's ending, and the producers know how well that went over, so they decided to add a definitive conclusion to her story.  But they could have just as easily confirmed the other outcome.  Finally, if Laurie never intended to kill herself, that prior episode had one helluva lot of misdirection, and why for god's sake was it so important for Laurie to go out for a solo dive the day before the world ends?

[txhorns79]

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I can't fathom Nora walking away from her children on the other side. If 98% of the world's population had disappeared, including my mother, I'd sure as hell want to know that she was okay, and that the rest of humankind was still out there, living their lives. I'd be furious if I found out that she'd traveled to another dimension to find me, and then chose not to establish contact.

I can fathom it, only because I think that if Nora really believed her kids were okay, and that her "return" would be extremely disruptive for them and potentially could even emotionally harm them, I can see her making a decision to walk away.  I believed that Nora did go there, if only because that was a pretty detailed story and Nora honestly doesn't seem like the type to engage in that kind of fantasy.  I do like the idea that the people who "departed" are just on an alternative Earth where they think everyone else departed.            

[bagatelle]

They all looked so old considering it was only 10-15 years later. Laurie looked like a bit of a hag.

And I always watch for this-- the makeup people, in any movie, ease up on the jarring makeup after a scene or two. Nora looked quite nice with much lighter age spots in the kitchen. So did Kevin.

[Lady Iris]

1 minute ago, bagatelle said:

Laurie looked like a bit of a hag.

Considering I thought she was really most sincerely dead I was happy to see her but she definitely could've used a bit of hair product to calm down the frizz.

[Hava]

5 hours ago, Macbeth said:

But I can imagine that male writers can't fathom the idea that romantic love is not the end all be all for women.

Just had to quote this because it is so true. 

[Milburn Stone]

On 6/5/2017 at 1:06 PM, bagatelle said:

They all looked so old considering it was only 10-15 years later.

Well, I didn't think Nora looked like a "hag," as you put it, but that aside...How do we know it was 10-15 years later? Non-rhetorical question. Perhaps there was evidence for it which I didn't encode. But I assumed it was more like 25 years later. So if we know it to be only 10-15, I'd like to see that corroborated.

Edited June 8, 2017 by Milburn Stone

[bagatelle]

2 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

Well, I didn't think Nora looked like a "hag," as you put it, but that aside...How do we know it was 10-15 years later? Non-rhetorical question. I'm assuming there was evidence for it, which I didn't encode. But I assumed it was more like 25 years later. So if we know it to be only 10-15, I'd like to see that corroborated.

I meant that Laurie looked a bit haggard considering it was only about 10-15 years later. That's a lot of aging in such a short time, in which she was probably fairly happy and content, living in Jarden with family.

I can see Nora aging more drastically, due to unhappiness, a harder lifestyle and sun exposure, but Laurie, not so much.

How many years?  According to Lindelof, it was:

Lindelof gave the makeup team one directive: Don't make it look like old-age makeup. Since Nora ages only ten years, Conte eschewed prosthetics in favor of a lighter latex stipple, which dries on the face and is molded to accentuate wrinkles and simulate lost elasticity.

http://www.vulture.com/2017/06/leftovers-finale-behind-the-scenes-exclusive.html

Edited June 5, 2017 by bagatelle

[smcallah]

12 hours ago, WaltersHair said:

What happened to Laurie's fetus? Just went to the other side and died on the ultrasound table?

My biggest problem with this is, did any pregnant women depart?  I think I remember there being one mentioned, but she departed and her fetus departed.

But there were no stories that anyone talked about where this happened, "I opened a car door where the driver had disappeared and there was just a fetus lying in the seat."  Or, "a woman was just swimming in the pool at the Y, I turned around, she was gone, but a fetus was floating in the pool."

[stagmania]

29 minutes ago, Milburn Stone said:

Well, I didn't think Nora looked like a "hag," as you put it, but that aside...How do we know it was 10-15 years later? Non-rhetorical question. I'm assuming there was evidence for it, which I didn't encode. But I assumed it was more like 25 years later. So if we know it to be only 10-15, I'd like to see that corroborated.

They didn't give any clear hints about the time lapse, other than that Kevin, Sr is still alive and 91. He's in his mid-70s in present time (at least, the actor is), so that's where that estimate comes from.

10 minutes ago, bagatelle said:

I said Laurie looked like a bit of a hag, considering it was only about 15 years later.

If y'all could stop using the word "hag" to describe women, I'd really appreciate it.

[Joimiaroxeu]

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But I can imagine that male writers can't fathom the idea that romantic love is not the end all be all for women.

Not the be all end all for all women. For plenty of women it probably is. It has been at least since the widespread idea of romantic love developed in the 17th century.

Quote

They all looked so old considering it was only 10-15 years later. Laurie looked like a bit of a hag.

I thought both Nora and Kevin's faces started softening once they began dropping their defenses and slowly letting the other person in. It was to me like the evidence of their long emotional burdens being released.

[Lady Iris]

5 minutes ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

I thought both Nora and Kevin's faces started softening once they began dropping their defenses and slowly letting the other person in. It was to me like the evidence of their long emotional burdens being released.

You know, I thought my eyes were playing tricks on me but I thought so too.

[Tim Thomason]

Another thing in my "Nora is telling a story" column, is the appearance of Laurie and her "same time, next week" (a callback to their last appearance). I don't think they've been in constant contact week-after-week, but probably close to it. If Nora disappeared for a decade or two, then they probably wouldn't have given us the suggestion that she's been making regular calls to Laurie.

And I know many of you are saying that Nora just wanted the truth, but the episode seemed to be full of lies (Kevin, the nun, even the joking lies at the wedding from the bride and groom). I think Nora's lesson that she learned was that telling this story to Kevin was a way of reconciliation. He wanted to start over by ignoring all the events that happened during their relationship, and she decided to start over by offering him an explanation  ("I was in another universe!") that belies what they both know to he true: that she avoided Kevin (and more importantly, the rest of civilization) due to her personal issues and inadequacies. 

[DarkRaichu]

To me they looked younger towards the end of the episode, still looking aged but not as much as the beginning of the episode.

[Tim Thomason]

Only 10 years? I guess in 2028, the Gray Hair Dye business is booming. Crazy future fads

[islandgal140]

8 hours ago, stagmania said:

This. In the end, whether life was worth living came down to the personal connections these damaged people made with each other. We don't need to know if Nora's story was real, or if Kevin's alternate universe was real, because that's how faith works. You don't get to know, you just believe. Or you don't. 

The theme song of this show is called Let The Mystery Be. Every religious and supernatural element of the story along the way has been loaded with ambiguity. No one has answers about the huge questions this show addressed; we all have to stumble through life desperate to know and destined to never find out. If you went into this finale expecting definitive answers, you failed to listen to what the show's been telling you all along. 

This and the talk of believing 'the better story' is why the final episode reminded me of the book and film Life of Pi. 

[Hava]

It was only 10 years?! It did not come across like that at all. It felt like 20 years or something.

[sd dude]

Maybe being instantaneously transported between alternate universes (twice!) can contribute to turning prematurely gray.

[bagatelle]

What did Nora do for money on the other side? How did she travel around?  

I'm going with she saw taking things to its natural conclusion and using the made-up story to illustrate it.

Edited June 5, 2017 by bagatelle

[Helena Dax]

On 5/6/2017 at 8:27 AM, Tim Thomason said:

I think it was all a beautiful lie at the end. Nora yelled (which we briefly saw) and was set free by the physicists and/or Matt (who was in the comm room) before the irradiation. She then decided to live the rest of her life in Australia.

If, though, everything Nora said was true, I refuse to believe that that physicist wouldn't have built a "return home" machine before Nora came knocking on his door. In a world of orphans, what kind of monster just sits on the knowledge and technology to restore families and provide answers to two worlds?

I was sure Nora was telling the truth, but yeah, you're right, in that case, the physicist comes across as an asshole. On the other hand, Nora hates lies so much that I also find hard to believe that she would make up such a story just because. I mean, what would be the point? Kevin would have wanted her anyway. Furthermore, it seems to be true that she has found some peace regarding her children, so if she didn't actually visit them, where does that peace come from? We can fanwank, but the show doesn't give us any other possibility. So well, now I think it could go either way. 

Anyway, I was happy to see them together again. And the actors were amazing. You could really see the pain, the fear and the hope in their eyes. They deserve all the Emmys.

Laurie is alive??? I wasn't expecting that. And although I think the show shouldn't have tricked us into thinking she had commited suicide, the fact that she didn't makes more sense in my opinion. I just couldn't understand it, last episode. 

Well, this show... The finale was less crazy than I expected, but I loved it anyway. I'm going to miss it.

Edited June 6, 2017 by Helena Dax

[meep.meep]

1 hour ago, Tim Thomason said:

Only 10 years? I guess in 2028, the Gray Hair Dye business is booming. Crazy future fads

Gray Hair Dye business is booming today!

If it is 2028 then Nora will be 49.  She said she was born in 1979 in her "intro."  Most people have some gray hairs by that age.  Her hair wasn't completely gray either.   God only knows what going through the lasers and metallic gels do to your hair.  And half of her "aged" look was that she didn't have any makeup on.

I thought that Kevin and Nora were being un-aged during their kitchen conversation.

[Kbilly]

 I didn't like that Kevin would just erase everything they had together because it wasn't all good and just limit it to a conversation one time in a school hallway. His I searched for you every year on vacation was his "I wrote you every day for a year!" (Notebook) and I wanted him to express that love more fully to the beautiful score!

The poor sweet goat! Didn't they say the guy was supposed to take off the "sins" when he released the goat?  Mean! The doves coming back was my favorite I think.

So the nun was sleeping with the motorcycle guy??

What was with the bathroom door? I mean I guess I get the symbolism but why did she even need to close the door at all when she lived alone?

Quote

Maybe being instantaneously transported between alternate universes (twice!) can contribute to turning prematurely gray.

And to prefer wearing your hair super long when you've always worn it short!

[MorbidPet]

19 hours ago, Macbeth said:

It would have been really great if we actually saw and experience the Book of Nora with her - instead of her telling us afterwards.

I don't mind the way they let this play out but I wouldn't have minded if they did something like when Nora went in to the van and we got flashbacks to that scene with her kids before they departed (or she did). To actually see her kids and hubby (and even new woman) in like a blurry shot would've been rather great. Easier to visualize anyways.

17 hours ago, pfk505 said:

Well that was just absolutely perfect.

Yupp. Bordering on cheesy at times, like I caught myself thinking "this is too good to be true", but I wouldn't want in any other way really. Nora Kevin endgame. Set.

Laurie was never a favorite character of mine but I liked to see her alive and seemingly enjoying her life being a grandma and all. And also that phone scene with Laurie & Nora had me laughing out loud. Laurie teasing Nora and Nora slamming the phone down. Epic.

There were also beautiful shots. Like their dance. Everything about that wedding really. I liked the Nora biking scenes, especially during day time as the views were so magnificent. Her house were gorgeous. Seemed like a haven on earth.

The nun was f-ing perfect.

Oh I'm gonna miss this show. I want, no I need the DVD box asap. I hope it will consist of loads of extra material cause I just want more more more of this show.

[picklesprite]

I just binged on the whole 3 seasons over the  last few days. Sigh. Bliss.

I think Kevin lied at first because he was just fuckin' terrified she'd reject him if he showed up and said he'd been stalking her for twenty fuckin' years. *He* thought he was fuckin'nuts for doing it; what would *she* fuckin' think? And may I say how fuckin' much I loved how fuckin' often they used "fuckin" in this show?

[HotRats2112]

16 hours ago, Tim Thomason said:

I refuse to believe that that physicist wouldn't have built a "return home" machine before Nora came knocking on his door. In a world of orphans, what kind of monster just sits on the knowledge and technology to restore families and provide answers to two worlds?

This is sort of the reason I think Nora's story was a lie. I think she was so disappointed that it didn't work, and her last interaction with Kevin in the hotel, she just went into a years long funk and hid away.  Any scientist that actually could make a machine to travel between the worlds would be shouting it from anywhere he could.

Edited June 5, 2017 by HotRats2112

[bagatelle]

4 minutes ago, HotRats2112 said:

This is sort of the reason I think Nora's story was a lie. I think she was so disappointed that it didn't work, and her last interaction with Kevin in the hotel, she just went into a years long funk and hid away.  Any scientist that actually could make a machine to travel between the worlds would be shouting it from anywhere he could.

As if the inventor of the machine was able to find enough pieces to put together another to send Nora back.

[HotRats2112]

11 minutes ago, bagatelle said:

As if the inventor of the machine was able to find enough pieces to put together another to send Nora back.

Why not? Nora made it a point to say that everything was still there.  The clothes were in the stores. There were planes but no pilots. I would think anything he needed would be easily accessible.  Maybe even more than on this side since only 2% is on the other side.

Edited June 5, 2017 by HotRats2112

[Cardie]

All the nitpicks of Nora's story make me think it's true. If you're going to make up a lie, then make up a more believable one. Say that Dr. VanEeghen built a return machine the minute he found out it worked, just in case anyone wanted to go back but had had few takers. Nora could make herself look better by saying that she did talk to her children and husband and they were delighted to see her but all realized soon she had no place in their new life. Something as illogical as the story she does tell convinces me that it really happened.

2 hours ago, Kbilly said:

What was with the bathroom door? I mean I guess I get the symbolism but why did she even need to close the door at all when she lived alone?

She was locking every door. It was all symbolism, that she had to be locked away from Kevin ever pursuing her. The Leftovers operates pretty much 100% on the level of symbol and metaphor, so that looking for realistic explanations is beside the point.

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

23 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

The undying faithfulness of Kevin's love for Nora made their ending very satisfying.

I'm still processing how I feel about the finale and how their reunion went down....BUT yeah, I really wanted a Kevin-Nora endgame and am super glad about it. Definitely satisfying even if much of the episode left me feeling uneasy.

22 hours ago, Pallas said:

Yes. And in the end, the only belief that saved anyone, was the belief these people had in each other.

Love this. 

12 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I thought his strategy in trying to renew things with her was so strange, and it wasn't clear to me why he thought Nora would be into it.  I mean, he was essentially trying to convince her that her memories of their past relationship were false and that she was crazy to think the relationship had happened.  It felt like it was done more to misdirect the audience about what had happened to Nora after she went into machine than to be a believable action on the part of a character.  .   

Right? I felt like that was cruel - to Nora and to the viewers.  I felt like Kevin was trying to gaslight Nora and all of us. I wasn't sure if I liked him much this episode until he dropped the act. Thoreaux's acting was amazing, though. He sold that "I feel uneasy around this guy but he's charming and looks at me like he loves me" thing perfectly. 

9 hours ago, sd dude said:

 

The only thing that irked me about the finale was Laurie's appearance.  It's a small thing really, since this story was wholly about Kevin and Nora, and the only reason they wrote the Laurie scene in the first place is for the surprise (!) reveal that she actually survived.  Now, I don't have a strong dislike for the character, no strong feelings either way actually, so whether the character lives or dies has little effect for me.  However, I am annoyed by what appears to be a huge fake out based on Laurie's prior episode where the only anvil missing that Laurie killed herself is the one that she apparently failed to tie to her leg.  Sure, it is 100% feasible that she simply went down for a dive and came back up again. . .except every part of the narrative in that episode implied that she was going to end her life, from Nora's introduction of the idea, to seeking closure with Kevin and revealing never before revealed secrets to him, giving away her precious possessions ("I don't need it anymore"), and having that final conversation with her children.  Laurie enters the water, aaaaand credits.  Perhaps she did intend to die and had a change of heart while submerged but it would be nice to have seen some acknowledgement and explanation of that.  Without Laurie's final scene, we are left with the same ambiguity we are given for so many other questions and I would have preferred it was left that way, especially since so many hints were given during the prior episode that left fairly little ambiguity in my mind.  Eh, I suppose Laurie's next to last appearance was very much a Soprano's ending, and the producers know how well that went over, so they decided to add a definitive conclusion to her story.  But they could have just as easily confirmed the other outcome.  Finally, if Laurie never intended to kill herself, that prior episode had one helluva lot of misdirection, and why for god's sake was it so important for Laurie to go out for a solo dive the day before the world ends?

I feel like this was blatant misdirection on behalf of the writers and perhaps Amy B (given her interview about that episode). I don't appreciate it. 

Edited June 6, 2017 by MyPeopleAreNordic

[DarkRaichu]

3 hours ago, HotRats2112 said:

Why not? Nora made it a point to say that everything was still there.  The clothes were in the stores. There were planes but no pilots. I would think anything he needed would be easily accessible.  Maybe even more than on this side since only 2% is on the other side.

It depends. If part of that machine is extremely rare and only a few people know how to manufacture it in earth prime, then there is very little chance anyone in alternate earth is able to create it.  If the part cannot be produced, then the machine cannot be created.

Kind of like the fleet of planes were useless there since there was not enough people with the knowledge to pilot them.

Edited June 6, 2017 by DarkRaichu

[whiporee]

I don't want to have to preface every sentence with IMO or "the way I watched it," so please take the declarative sentences that follow with those two premises in mind. 

I don't have any doubt about Nora's story, because in the end it showed we'd spent the series wondering about the wrong things. 

The characters in the show lost 2 percent of their world, and for the most part it nearly broke many of them. But the people who left lost 98 percent. Yet over the course of a) reading the book and b) watching the show, I never once wondered if the Sudden Departuers were okay. Never entered my mind. Nor did it ever come up in dialogue in the show as far as I can tell. I just assumed they were in a better place, because divine intervention was really the only explanation that made sense. No one talked about scientific possibilities until "Don't be Ridiculous" -- it was all metaphysical assumptions, and those left behind felt they had been left behind, so caught up in their own grief that they couldn't see how much more loss those who left might be facing. Nora's os the epitome of that -- so convinced her own suffering was so intense, so singular, that she couldn't ever look or get past it. But the first people she met had lost so much more than she had. Yet they were nice. 

Had the world not be so willing to accept its own badness, maybe the scientific community would have worked to figure out where the SDs went, and stumbled on Van Eaghan's solution a lot faster. But it was because of the population's assumption they were the ones suffering and not the SDs, that once no easy explanation appeared, the world let metaphysics take over. 

So I don't see how Nora's story can be a lie, because it seems to very central to the overall plot and message of the show.  It was a show about loss, but in the end the show reaffirmed that there are always much worse losses, and that we owe it to ourselves and to the world to look beyond our own sadnesses. That's where Nora changed her mind -- when she saw that her desire to reunite with her family would be a crushing blow to them. They'd rebuilt a life, and they turned out to be more important to her than her own need to hug them again. Without that impetus -- and every time someone got past sadness on this show, it came from a major impetus -- Nora never gets over her own perspective. So of course she's telling the truth, because nothing else would make sense from either a character or storytelling point of view.  

[whiporee]

As for the nitpicks of the finale, here's how I see it:

Van Eaghan doesn't know if his machine works in reverse. And even if it did, in a world with only 2 percent living in it, communication and distribution is going to be difficult. He might not have had the supplies to make more than one machine, and if he did he might have a hard time convincing people to leave. 

or, if he had a machine that would send people back, he might have been afraid of the riots that might have followed its announcement. 

Or, with only 170 million people spread out over the nearly 25 million square miles of inhabital land, it'd be hard to tell people about it. My guess is that it's all a city can do to keep the power running. Telecom is way down the list, especially years after the Sudden Arrival. 

As for Nora not reaching out to her kids, I think it's the most parental and mature thing she could have done for them.  

I don't listen to podcasts, but Laurie not dying was a surprise to me.  A good one, but i was sure she killed her self and coulnd't see any other reading of that scene. 

[scrb]

All I got was the nun has hot, forbidden sex while Nora and Kevin have a weepy, sappy ending.   Though why did the guy have to leave via the ladder?  It wasn't exactly stealth since it took longer to climb down that tall ladder rather than come out the front door, hop on the motorcycle and leave.

Was Nora really heartbroken to see her family had moved on?  She divorced her husband after all.  Plus Nora doesn't seem the shrinking violet type.  She might not have confronted her ex husband but could she walk away without seeing her children?

And another thing, if her children are in parallel New York, why the fuck did they have her come out to Australia, which means she'd have to make a long voyage from parallel Australia to parallel Mapleton?  And why make her go through naked -- though Carrie Coon has a nice body to look at?  If she made it through intact, why wouldn't her clothes?

Though she certainly is resourceful, transiting both times buck naked, but somehow finding the means to make intercontinental trip over there and then returning over here, getting a nice roomy house in Australia and a jar full of  money.

Who the fuck knew you could make a decent living scamming people with carrier pigeons?

[Macbeth]

19 hours ago, Cardie said:

http://www.vulture.com/2017/06/leftovers-finale-behind-the-scenes-exclusive.html?utm_campaign=vulture&utm_medium=s1&utm_source=fb

This is very, very long but explains the various story-telling choices they made. On Nora's story, the condensed version is that Lindelof had wanted the quantum explanation from the beginning but Perrotta, author of the novel, was dead set against it. The compromise was to leave Nora's story ambiguous, partly by not showing it but letting Coon sell it (or not.)

Thank you Cardie very much for letting us know that there was a major disagreement between TPTB re Nora's story and Lindelof wanted to make Nora's story true but the author didn't so the compromise was ambiguity.

As soon as I heard the story - I was like how could Lindelof resist not showing - it didn't make any sense.  He did- but it was a compromise.

6 hours ago, whiporee said:

So I don't see how Nora's story can be a lie, because it seems to very central to the overall plot and message of the show.  It was a show about loss, but in the end the show reaffirmed that there are always much worse losses, and that we owe it to ourselves and to the world to look beyond our own sadnesses. That's where Nora changed her mind -- when she saw that her desire to reunite with her family would be a crushing blow to them. They'd rebuilt a life, and they turned out to be more important to her than her own need to hug them again. Without that impetus -- and every time someone got past sadness on this show, it came from a major impetus -- Nora never gets over her own perspective. So of course she's telling the truth, because nothing else would make sense from either a character or storytelling point of view.  

   Eloquently stated Whiporee.  As soon as I heard Nora's story it all clicked for me.  It made sense.  I never considered it a lie.  So that baby who disappeared from his car seat - tragic to think what happened to him.

[Dminches]

7 hours ago, whiporee said:

The characters in the show lost 2 percent of their world, and for the most part it nearly broke many of them. But the people who left lost 98 percent.

Unless they are all dead.

7 hours ago, whiporee said:

So I don't see how Nora's story can be a lie, because it seems to very central to the overall plot and message of the show.  It was a show about loss, but in the end the show reaffirmed that there are always much worse losses, and that we owe it to ourselves and to the world to look beyond our own sadnesses. 

It doesn't have to be a lie to not be true.  Maybe the story was symbolic of Nora's attempt to deal with the loss of her children.  If she feels they are ok then she can be comforted by that thought.  

It doesn't matter to me if it is true or not since it is all about how she is dealing with tragedy.  But there is no certainly at all that her story is more than her imagination.

[Lady Iris]

Imagine though, what if Nora woke up in the parking lot, Matt and everyone is gone, turns out there were drugs in the IV. She woke up, naked and alone, completely and utterly embarrassed that she'd been swindled so badly so she hides in the middle of nowhere Australia for the next several years. Just thinking out loud here but I think I have an easier time believing she went through.

[txhorns79]

Quote

I feel like this was blatant misdirection on behalf of the writers and perhaps Amy B (given her interview about that episode). I don't appreciate it. 

I agree.  I can believe that Laurie may have changed her mind (as she did so following her initial suicide attempt), but I think it takes a lot away from the episode and performance to have her pop up again two episodes later with no explanation of what happened. 

[Juliegirlj]

Just gonna throw this theory out there: I wonder if perhaps Nora and Kevin are dead? When Kevin mentioned that he had met the bride at the " Hotel", it gave me pause. I prefer to believe they both completed their individual metaphysical journeys and found each other, living happily for the remainder of their lives. However the idea that they could be in purgatory or the afterlife is food for thought.

[Cardie]

6 hours ago, Macbeth said:

So that baby who disappeared from his car seat - tragic to think what happened to him.

I was thinking of the man with Down Syndrome, so dependent on his elderly parents.

[MrSmith]

On 6/5/2017 at 1:27 AM, Tim Thomason said:

I think it was all a beautiful lie at the end. Nora yelled (which we briefly saw) and was set free by the physicists and/or Matt (who was in the comm room) before the irradiation. She then decided to live the rest of her life in Australia.

If, though, everything Nora said was true, I refuse to believe that that physicist wouldn't have built a "return home" machine before Nora came knocking on his door. In a world of orphans, what kind of monster just sits on the knowledge and technology to restore families and provide answers to two worlds?

Well, first we don't know how long it was that he was over there. Second, she said she had to go get some things for him in order for him to build it. Perhaps he didn't have the ability to get these things himself without help. And if that is true, there are many, many fewer people in that world than this, which would make it astronomically more difficult to find someone who'll believe you can make such a machine and would be willing to help. Third, it's possible that he realized the people in that world were getting on just fine and probably wouldn't want to go back. Or maybe he just expected no one would believe him. Fourth, we don't have any proof that he didn't bring up the idea of building his machine. Maybe he did and the people there just laughed him off. Maybe he didn't bring it up because he saw the hostility and disbelief with which he was greeted in this world and chose not to subject himself to that again.

[MrSmith]

On 6/5/2017 at 1:38 AM, Hava said:

What bothered me about the finale, however, is that, if Nora's story is true, she left her kids. It just didn't ring true to her character. ... To think that she would make it all the way there and have the self-control not to run to them and hold them just didn't feel right. 

By the time she got there, assuming her story is true, it's been seven years. To the people who ended up in the other world, it looks to them as though everyone who didn't simply vanished. Basically, she got there, discovered they were alive, also discovered that they'd managed to lead happy lives, and chose not to reveal herself to them because she didn't want to disrupt that. To me, that's exactly the kind of person she is. After all, they've gone seven years thinking she's dead or disappeared. If she revealed herself to them, that could bring up questions as to which woman her husband would be with: the woman he's spent part of the last seven years with or Nora. Would they even believe it was her? Would they believe her story? Very likely, they would not initially believe her, which would cause them to be angry at her. And how would she prove her story to them? So, in my opinion, her choice to stay hidden and let them continue with the happy lives they're leading is spot-on for her character.

On 6/5/2017 at 1:39 AM, WaltersHair said:

What happened to Laurie's fetus? Just went to the other side and died on the ultrasound table?

Uhhh, yeah. Makes sense. There probably was hardly anyone in that hospital on the other side.

[Jalyn]

5 hours ago, Juliegirlj said:

Just gonna throw this theory out there: I wonder if perhaps Nora and Kevin are dead? When Kevin mentioned that he had met the bride at the " Hotel", it gave me pause. I prefer to believe they both completed their individual metaphysical journeys and found each other, living happily for the remainder of their lives. However the idea that they could be in purgatory or the afterlife is food for thought.

That's what I was thinking through most of the episode, especially given that Laurie's apparent suicide wasn't even addressed. Nora died, her afterlife included seeing her children happy and content and leaving them to be. Years later, Kevin dies of the heart problem that he believes was fixed by a pacemaker and finds her in his afterlife. 

The only thing that doesn't work is the child is that Laurie is playing with during the call with Nora. If they are all alive, it's Jill's child. If not, I can't place it. Even if she'd somehow reconnected with the child that departed, everyone else is aging, so why wouldn't that child be an adult at this point? 

[DarkRaichu]

7 minutes ago, Jalyn said:

 

The only thing that doesn't work is the child is that Laurie is playing with during the call with Nora. If they are all alive, it's Jill's child. If not, I can't place it. Even if she'd somehow reconnected with the child that departed, everyone else is aging, so why wouldn't that child be an adult at this point? 

Maybe she was just playing with some random recently dead kid.  Nobody said the kid was related to her.

 

In any case they could no be in afterlife as Kevin already nuked that place last episode. :D

[Clanstarling]

On 6/4/2017 at 8:44 PM, pfk505 said:

Well that was just absolutely perfect.

That's the way I felt too.

21 hours ago, Uncle Benzene said:

Loved it! And, to me, it makes perfect sense. I totally get why a lot of you think most of it remains ambiguous (let the mystery be) and are struggling with it for various reasons, but for some reason I feel like it was perfectly clear to me. And it was beautiful.

They finally told each other the fuckin' truth. For once. The whole truth. And that was the key all along, the key they never seemed to be able to find, until they finally did.

This, so much.

I watched the episode expecting a mind-fuck of some kind (I guess Kevin's initial attempt to try a fresh start was that), but was completely engaged.

No one's mentioned it so far, but the scene with Nora and Matt was just brilliant. It's the first time I ever thought they seemed connected, and boy was it touching. I got pretty choked up. Eccleston did his finest work on this series in that short scene, imo.

I completely trusted Nora's version of the truth. It never occurred to me it was in any way ambivalent until I got on the forum, and think those of you who think she lied have solid points, but I'm sticking with she told the truth.

Normally, I would have liked to have seen the "other side" (and I thought at one point previously that our Leftovers were the ones who disappeared, so I liked the symmetry).  I didn't need to see it, and really thought showing it would have detracted (for me) from the intimacy of the episode.

Within 24 hours, I watched two series finales of two shows I loved. This one I enjoyed and felt deep satisfaction - I could leave the mysteries be. The other one, Bloodline, infuriated me because they didn't answer a fraction of their mysteries. Go figure. Even in my own head, mileage varies.

[crookedjackson44]

I am sorry this show has ended.  The first season was a torture to get through, though a second viewing recently wasn't so bad.  But it certainly has grown on me.  This season was terrific.  The stories and the filming were just wonderful.  Carry Coon and Justin Theraux should be in consideration for Emmy for their stirling performances.  I will miss it, though it's only a month or so until Game of Thrones returns.