S03.E08: The Book of Nora

[bagatelle]

8 hours ago, Macbeth said:

 Eloquently stated Whiporee.  As soon as I heard Nora's story it all clicked for me.  It made sense.  I never considered it a lie.  So that baby who disappeared from his car seat - tragic to think what happened to him.

The disappeared mom of the crying little boy in the parking lot picked up the baby who disappeared from the car seat. That's how I imagine it.

[shapeshifter]

The backstage pictures from this Vulture link are worth viewing. For me, they capture the good feelings of the finale.

[Slovenly Muse]

22 hours ago, HotRats2112 said:

On 6/4/2017 at 11:27 PM, Tim Thomason said:

I refuse to believe that that physicist wouldn't have built a "return home" machine before Nora came knocking on his door. In a world of orphans, what kind of monster just sits on the knowledge and technology to restore families and provide answers to two worlds?

This is sort of the reason I think Nora's story was a lie.

It's certainly a detail that doesn't make sense. If the literal truth of the situation is that a scientist built a machine to take him to where the departed had gone so he could be with them, and it worked, then he and the loved one(s) he was trying to get back to would then be in the world with the GREATEST need for the machine, all the orphans wanting to come back to their parents. Of course, life is funny, and people don't always behave in logical ways. Who knows why he wouldn't have helped to reunite those families.

I don't believe Nora's story was a lie... but I also don't believe it was the literal truth. Just as Kevin's "hotel" visions may very well have been a product of his own mind, rather than a true journey into the real afterlife, it's possible that Nora's experience on the other side was a vision, rather than a literal journey. Perhaps, in that machine, her life flashed before her eyes and she had a moment of clarity, and she saw the truth of what she was doing for the first time... she saw what would happen if it worked, and she saw her children, together and happy, and she understood how out of place she would feel, and what would happen then? She would want nothing more than to come back home. And it would be ok, because if her family were still out there somewhere then they'd be together. And if they weren't, there'd be nothing she could accomplish by crossing over. Perhaps she believed this journey really happened, or perhaps it was a journey of understanding, which is still the truth. And realizing what she was doing and how the BEST CASE scenario would turn out, she used her last breath to stop the machine. Then, with the newfound understanding that she would willingly leave behind ALL of her connections in both worlds, and therefore her life would be meaningless in either one, she shut herself away, closing all her doors so as not to rebuild any of the connections she had severed... and just kept living. I don't know how Lindelof or C*** meant it, but I think I'm going to choose to believe this. 

Laurie's suicide then, in Certified, would have also been largely symbolic. Diving to drown the woman she used to be, and letting go of her old patterns (the coping strategies that led her to join a cult, and then become a fake psychic), so that she could begin to truly live again.

I do love that the series began with a departure, and ended with a reunion. Not with anyone who was lost in the Departure, but with the person who'd been there the whole time. Because sometimes letting go of what's been lost is the only way to begin to truly rebuild. "People hold candles," but they can't move forward in a real way until they put those candles out. It doesn't resolve the divide that happened between these worlds, and these people ("We lost them"/"They lost us" - it's pointless to think of either world as an escape from the other, they are both so deeply broken), but it does provide some resolution to the series' problem of how a world can begin to heal, and find meaning and happiness again, after such an incomprehensible uncertain tragedy. 

Well done, show.

[Tim Thomason]

And now that I've thought about it, 10 years is too short of a time, based on Kevin Sr's reported age (91). For some reason, I don't think he's 81 in the final season, which would make him 74 when he was still police chief during the Departure. I know Scott Glenn is 76, but I think he's playing younger. My initial assumption was 20 years, which would fit better and make Kevin Sr. 64 during the Departure.

Although this would set the coda in 2038, making Nora 59 and Kevin 66 (his mother died when he was 9 - which we learned was also when the "President was shot by a crazy man", i.e. 1981). So maybe 15 years is a better compromise.

Or maybe 10 years is the correct guess, and they goofed by making Kevin Sr. too old.

[Slovenly Muse]

Hey now, don't make judgments based on Kevin Sr's age. Immortality runs in his family ;)

[scrb]

It's not going to affect her career but Carrie C*** should have really considered adopting a stage name.

I think this is her first big role?  Seem to recall reading that she was doing local or regional theater in Wisconsin before being cast in this show.

If that was the case, her profile was obviously going to blow up.

[Macbeth]

3 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

No one's mentioned it so far, but the scene with Nora and Matt was just brilliant. It's the first time I ever thought they seemed connected, and boy was it touching. I got pretty choked up. Eccleston did his finest work on this series in that short scene, imo.

It was a very lovely scene, a great final scene Matt.

3 hours ago, bagatelle said:

The disappeared mom of the crying little boy in the parking lot picked up the baby who disappeared from the car seat. That's how I imagine it.

That would be lovely - I hope so.

[candle96]

On 6/5/2017 at 0:57 PM, txhorns79 said:

I can fathom it, only because I think that if Nora really believed her kids were okay, and that her "return" would be extremely disruptive for them and potentially could even emotionally harm them, I can see her making a decision to walk away.  I believed that Nora did go there, if only because that was a pretty detailed story and Nora honestly doesn't seem like the type to engage in that kind of fantasy.  I do like the idea that the people who "departed" are just on an alternative Earth where they think everyone else departed.            

ITA. To me it had a very King Solomon vibe. They were the "lucky" ones on that side of things, because most of the family (minus Nora) was intact. They had grieved her, but had moved on.

[shapeshifter]

Throughout the series Nora longed for her missing children, but never her husband.
I guess that's because she and Kevin were the endgame, but it seems like a pretty big omission to not have addressed it at all.

[Cardie]

44 minutes ago, scrb said:

I think this is her first big role?  Seem to recall reading that she was doing local or regional theater in Wisconsin before being cast in this show.

She had done mostly stage work, going from Steppenwolf in Chicago to getting a Tony nomination for playing Honey in Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf on Broadway. After a few guest shots on TV she was cast as Ben Affleck's sister in Gone Girl and was generating some buzz in that film.  She went straight into Leftovers and it aired before Gone Girl was released. She is fully blown up now and is of course on Fargo this season, the gig she took after Leftovers finished filming last fall.

[whiporee]

I was thinking about Laurie's "suicide," and realized she never said she was going to commit suicide. Never really even hinted at it. Nora talked about it, and maybe that would be seen as planting a seed, but all Laurie said on the subject was she was certified. 

At the end of Certified, all the characters thought something was happening on the anniversary. So they were all sort of expecting a big revelation, maybe the end of the world, maybe not. So, while I think her dive was supposed to lead us ina  direction, it was because of our interpretations, not anything the character said or did. 

[shapeshifter]

46 minutes ago, whiporee said:

I was thinking about Laurie's "suicide," and realized she never said she was going to commit suicide. Never really even hinted at it. Nora talked about it, and maybe that would be seen as planting a seed, but all Laurie said on the subject was she was certified. 

At the end of Certified, all the characters thought something was happening on the anniversary. So they were all sort of expecting a big revelation, maybe the end of the world, maybe not. So, while I think her dive was supposed to lead us ina  direction, it was because of our interpretations, not anything the character said or did. 

Also, they showed us how she had turned back from suicide before. And we were shown Kevin flirting with suicide countless times. So while I would have assumed Laurie committed suicide by scuba if we hadn't seen her again, I had no problem with her rising from the dead (so to speak), especially on this show.

[Domestic Assassin]

Quote

Throughout the series Nora longed for her missing children, but never her husband.
I guess that's because she and Kevin were the endgame, but it seems like a pretty big omission to not have addressed it at all.

She did long for her husband, up until she found out he cheated on her.  Then she divorced him.  But I do think she never really processed it all, or at least I don't think the show did a very good job of portraying that.

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, Moose Andsquirrel said:

She did long for her husband, up until she found out he cheated on her.  Then she divorced him.  But I do think she never really processed it all, or at least I don't think the show did a very good job of portraying that.

Which episode dealt with the cheating reveal? 2016 I was hovering between life and death,* so I missed/forgot some stuff. TIA for info.

*And sorry, but I don't think y'all get to be jealous of me for watching a show like this in that state of life limbo.

Edited June 7, 2017 by shapeshifter

[Pallas]

Damon Lindelof has clarified what happened with Laurie's death in several post-finale interviews.

Spoiler

He changed his mind.   As he similarly told Sepinwall, the Hollywood Reporter and Variety. 

I've come around. During the finale, I was so disturbed by Laurie's resurrection, I lost focus for awhile. It struck me as a cheap trick nicer story that bought ten more minutes of confusion about whether we were in Nora's limbo, or the narrative's here-and-now. It seemed that the writers had sacrificed their artistic principles for expediency, at the cost of a full hour of the final season, and the sweet sorrow that lingered. I didn't like being shown one thing and then told another, two weeks later, in the middle of an even more enthralling experience -- my last of this story and these people. The shock struck a nerve of mine about contingency. Which is, of course, the solar plexis of the show. 

But that's TV: that's what it gives its writers the chance to do. And this story could only be told, and so beautifully, in that medium. I'm taking the show to heart: don't be an absolutist; don't start name-calling or mounting high horses -- artistic principles! -- because someone didn't do what I wanted, or in this case, dis-fuckin'-combobulated me. Even if it also was expedient. And since I love Laurie, it's bloody-minded of me to insist that she kill herself, instead. Who'd want to do that job.

Take gifts. Accept grace. Knock down the door you closed against what you did not foresee. Go to the dance. Dive in. Maybe the moment Laurie switched off the regulator, the waters of Melbourne Harbour got roiled like the springs or earth of Jarden, or she got swallowed whole by a dogfish, then spat into the boat. What matters is, like Kevin and Nora, like Mary and Matt, like Jill and Tommy, she came back. What matters is, "I'm here." 

[Domestic Assassin]

Quote

Which episode dealt with the cheating reveal?

I think it was the third episode of the first season, the first one to focus on Matt.  And the divorce happened at the beginning of "Guest".

[Pallas]

12 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Which episode dealt with the cheating reveal?

 

4 hours ago, Moose Andsquirrel said:

I think it was the third episode of the first season, the first one to focus on Matt.  And the divorce happened at the beginning of "Guest".

Yup: in season 1, ep 3, Matt tells Nora that in his research on Mapleton's Departed, he discovered that her husband Doug was having an affair with Erin's pre-school teacher. Matt reveals this in anger, only-almost to prove a point, very much the way he'll later tell John about Kevin's thinking he saw Evie. In ep 6, the mighty "Guest," we see Nora parked by the school, staking out dismissal time when the teacher will lead the kids outside. The teacher ("young, pretty") spots Nora Cursed and looks stricken.

Nora then goes to divorce court and when asked by the judge if she understands that the decree will be binding even if her Departed ex returns, is pleased to inform the court that "My husband was cheating on me with my kid's pre-school teacher. So yes, I want the decree to be binding." She exits the courtroom and passes Kevin, on his way in to finish divorcing Laurie; that's when Nora suggests they spend the weekend in Miami. Kevin looks willing to go to that length but demurs, saying, "I live with my daughter," to which Nora hoots, "Oh, fuck your daughter!" She gasps at herself, apologizes, then turns and flees.

At the conclusion of "Guest," though, Nora stops buying the kids' cereal and gallons of milk, and replaces the three-year-old empty paper towel roll on the stand-up steel rack (like the one in her kitchen in Australia, on which she drapes the scapegoat's shame rosaries). She plays the latest in a series of a voicemail apologies from Matt, and saves it. No sooner done than Chief Adonis stops by, in his signature shades: he stands outside her door to say that he looked and finally found her address but not her phone number, and just wanted to tell her that he wasn't offended "By what you said. When you said, you know, 'fuck your daughter.'" That Miami sounded great. That maybe they could start with dinner in town. But that he should warn her, his life's a fuckin' mess...

And finally, Nora happens to drive by the school at dismissal time, is seen by the teacher but doesn't pause or glance her way, or at the children. All better!

Edited June 7, 2017 by Pallas

[MrSmith]

13 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Throughout the series Nora longed for her missing children, but never her husband.
I guess that's because she and Kevin were the endgame, but it seems like a pretty big omission to not have addressed it at all.

I don't think it was an omission. It always sounded to me like she and her husband were just going through the motions and were remaining married for the kids' sake. And that would explain why she never mentions her husband: she does not miss him.

[MV007]

I'm not interested in picking apart Nora's story to find some logical inconsistency to prove she's lying.  I believe her.  I want to the believe her and thus I do.  Such is life.

[nachomama]

15 hours ago, whiporee said:

At the end of Certified, all the characters thought something was happening on the anniversary. So they were all sort of expecting a big revelation, maybe the end of the world, maybe not. So, while I think her dive was supposed to lead us ina  direction, it was because of our interpretations, not anything the character said or did. 

So did anything actually happen on the Anniversary? They dunked Kevin and he had all his back and forth with his same self and we know it rained but there wasn't a flood that ended the world but Kevin also didn't learn the song and they didn't stop the flood with it did they? The big anniversary only had man-made catastrophes wherein submarine guy blew stuff up, lion weirdos had orgies, all stuff they wanted to end the world with if this was indeed the end but ultimately it wasn't (and Kevin's alternate reality didn't prevent it did it?) Did I pass out in the middle and miss it?

[RedHackle]

I've loved this series since the beginning. But then, I was a fan of Lost, too, so take whatever I say with a grain of salt. But I've loved this show from the first episode, and have been impressed with every episode. Some were harder to enjoy than others, but still, loved it start to finish.

I know that rule number one is 'show, don't tell'. But sometimes, when done well, deliberately having a character tell as a story can be remarkably powerful, as with Nora here.  I have no problem at all believing every word of her story. 

I'm going to miss the show.  Just trying to observe a respectable interval before I start bingeing it from episode 1.

[Penman61]

4 hours ago, MV007 said:

I'm not interested in picking apart Nora's story to find some logical inconsistency to prove she's lying.  I believe her.  I want to the believe her and thus I do.  Such is life.

Fair enough.  I truly understand this way of accepting it.  But I'm not Kevin.  I'm not being asked to believe Nora; I'm being asked to believe The Leftovers' entire story.  So, for me, it's worth working out what happened to her with the machine and what the various possibilities mean for the story.  YMMV.

As I see it, the show offers three possibilities for the veracity of Nora's account:

1. It's 100% empirically true:  The 2% are in their own parallel world, bereft of the 98%, and vice versa.
2. Nora believes it happened, i.e., she had some kind of near-death neurological event (as Kevin did), and that episode played out emotional things she needed to work out (as Kevin's did).  As Kevin said to her at the hotel, "You need to go be with your kids."  Her mind took that advice, and gave her the journey she needed.  But it's not empirically true--true for the rest of the world in The Leftovers.
3. Nora is deliberately lying.  In the tank, she screamed to get out at the last minute, was let out, and stayed in Australia for years until Kevin found her.  Not psychologically dissimilar from #2, she has constructed the story of crossing over to help herself continue to live.  But she knows it's not true.

Number 1 implies the moral imperative that Nora, having returned, tell the 98% world where the 2% are.  To NOT do so is, morally, monstrous and truly unforgivable.  Her character really can't recover from that with an audience.

Number 2 is, from a story-teller's perspective, too similar to what happened to Kevin, and she didn't have the "death" experience (being shot, being drowned, being asphyxiated) that Kevin appeared to require to enter that other world.

Number 3 requires that Matt would have been in on the lie (until he died) or at least sworn to secrecy.  

I'm sure I'm missing things.  :)

Edited June 7, 2017 by Penman61

[MrSmith]

On 6/7/2017 at 1:32 PM, Penman61 said:

Fair enough.  I truly understand this way of accepting it.  But I'm not Kevin.  I'm not being asked to believe Nora; I'm being asked to believe The Leftovers' entire story.  So, for me, it's worth working out what happened to her with the machine and what the various possibilities mean for the story.  YMMV.

As I see it, the show offers three possibilities for the veracity of Nora's account:

1. It's 100% empirically true:  The 2% are in their own parallel world, bereft of the 98%, and vice versa.
2. Nora believes it happened, i.e., she had some kind of near-death neurological event (as Kevin did), and that episode played out emotional things she needed to work out (as Kevin's did).  As Kevin said to her at the hotel, "You need to go be with your kids."  Her mind took that advice, and gave her the journey she needed.  But it's not empirically true--true for the rest of the world in The Leftovers.
3. Nora is deliberately lying.  In the tank, she screamed to get out at the last minute, was let out, and stayed in Australia for years until Kevin found her.  Not psychologically dissimilar from #2, she has constructed the story of crossing over to help herself continue to live.  But she knows it's not true.

Number 1 requires the moral imperative that Nora, having returned, tell the 98% world where the 2% are.  To NOT do so is, morally, monstrous and truly unforgivable.  

Number 2 is, from a story-teller's perspective, too similar to what happened to Kevin, and she didn't have the "death" experience (being shot, being drowned, being asphyxiated) that Kevin appeared to require to enter that other world.

Number 3 requires that Matt would have been in on the lie (until he died) or at least sworn to secrecy.  

I'm sure I'm missing things.  :)

Well, I believe that Nora is telling the truth because of how irate and absolutely ballistic she would get with people who were lying. So for her to be lying violates the character she and TPTB worked so hard over three seasons to create.

As for your first premise, that she has a moral imperative to tell the 98% where the other 2% are ..... no, she does not. Who would believe her? People would want to have her committed. And at least some of the 98% would become even more emotionally disturbed by this information than they are by believing their loved ones have been airlifted into Heaven. I would say that she would then have a moral imperative not to tell those people because it simply would not be good for them; a significant number of them would almost certainly become completely unhinged. You're coming at this idea from the perspective that everyone is going to want to know the truth and that knowing the truth is what's best for all of these people - and that is quite simply not true. Personally, if something like this happened in the real world and my wife was among the disappeared, I'd rather continue believing she was dead or airlifted into Heaven; especially because what the fuck am I going to be able to do about being reunited with her? It's not like everyone would be able to be squicked over to the other world where the 2% are. And telling me that my wife is alive and well on a quantum copy of this world - and the only way to get there is gatekept by physicists who get to unilaterally decide who goes through and are entirely likely to refuse to send me - would cause me enough mental and emotional pain to push me over the edge.

Edited June 10, 2017 by MrSmith

[Penman61]

45 minutes ago, MrSmith said:

Well, I believe that Nora is telling the truth because of how irate and absolutely ballistic she would get with people who were lying. So for her to be lying violates the character she and TPTB worked so hard over three seasons to create.

As for your first premise, that she has a moral imperative to tell the 98% where the other 2% are ..... no, she does not. Who would believe her? People would want to have her committed. And at least some of the 98% would become even more emotionally disturbed by this information than they are by believing their loved ones have been airlifted into Heaven. I would say that she would then have a moral imperative not to tell those people because it simply would not be good for them; a significant number of them would almost certainly become completely unhinged. You're coming at this idea from the perspective that everyone is going to want to know the truth and that knowing the truth is what's best for all of these people - and that is quite simply not true. Personally, if something like this happened in the real world and my wife was among the disappeared, I'd rather continue believing she was dead or airlifted into Heaven; especially because what the fuck am I going to be able to do about being reunited with her? It's not like everyone would be able to be squicked over to the other world where the 2% are. And telling me that my wife is alive and well on a quantum copy of this world - and the only way to get there is gatekept by physicists who get to unilaterally decide who goes through and are entirely likely to refuse to send me - would cause me enough mental and emotional pain and anguish that I would probably end up getting even with you by crippling or killing you in your sleep assuming that I didn't simply outright kill you where you stood after delivering that news to me.

Good points about Nora's honesty and bullshit aversion.

I can't agree about the moral imperative to not disclose what happened to the Sudden Departed.   It could very well be that many--most?--couldn't handle the truth, as you plausibly describe.  Certainly some would still want to know where the 2% went.  But that is not for Nora to decide. People deserve to have facts--especially life-or-death facts--about the people they care about.  How they manage that is up to them.  Not Nora.  For her to withhold that information is morally reprehensible.

Edited June 7, 2017 by Penman61

[Cyranetta]

Not that it really adds anything to the "Is Nora's story true?" discussion, but I found a resonant parallel between the sealing of doors for the pod and Nora's sealing of the house before taking a bath, and maybe that parallel was what drove her panic at not being able to open the bathroom door.

[whiporee]

2 hours ago, nachomama said:

So did anything actually happen on the Anniversary? They dunked Kevin and he had all his back and forth with his same self and we know it rained but there wasn't a flood that ended the world but Kevin also didn't learn the song and they didn't stop the flood with it did they? The big anniversary only had man-made catastrophes wherein submarine guy blew stuff up, lion weirdos had orgies, all stuff they wanted to end the world with if this was indeed the end but ultimately it wasn't (and Kevin's alternate reality didn't prevent it did it?) Did I pass out in the middle and miss it?

Nothing happened, because it wasn't an anniversary. The Departure was a quantum schism, completely random in what it did. There wasn't an intelligent design behind it, no grand plan, and thus, nothing to mark the anniversary. "We" attached a significance to the date because we needed to believe there was something behind this, there was a plan or a rapture or ... something. If you believe Nora and the physicists, there wasn't. It was just something that happened. 

Nora didn't tell enough for us to know exactly what that meant. Was it 2 percent of all living things? Just people? Just animals? I'm going to go with the "Revolution" pretext and say it was an experiment gone bad -- someone was trying to create teleportation, programed in the specs for human beings, and things went wrong. 

 

1 hour ago, Penman61 said:

But that is not for Nora to decide. People deserve to have facts--especially life-or-death facts--about the people they care about.  How they manage that is up to them.  Not Nora.  For her to withhold that information is morally reprehensible.

But telling them is a decision, too. If she had gone public, look at what would have become of her life. She would have been mocked, ridiculed, subjected to lie-detector tests, called a liar anyway, and for what? So she could tell people a story they might or might not believe? She had no proof, no evidence. She came through naked. She didn't meet all 170 million people still around, so she had no way of reassuring everyone. A lot of people on the other side may have died -- they did lose 98 percent of the world's doctors, farmers, pharmacists, after all. What is she going to say to anyone? 

I think you're allowed not to be a prophet if you don't wanna. That's why she's living the life she's living -- she interacts with very few people because she doesn't want the responsibility of telling them and she doesn't want the guilt of not telling them. Because, in the case of almost everyone, she's got nothing but platitudes for them, and all it's going to do is fuck up her life and upset almost all of them. She gets to make that choice. 

[Cardie]

5 hours ago, RedHackle said:

know that rule number one is 'show, don't tell'. But sometimes, when done well, deliberately having a character tell as a story can be remarkably powerful, as with Nora here

ITA. "Show don't tell" is the safe way to go for writers because badly done info dumps are much worse than badly done depictions of actions. But if I hear someone using that rubric against something as gorgeously written as Nora's monologue, I've been know to say--I'm an English teacher--"Show, don't tell is necessary only if you're no good at telling."

 

6 hours ago, nachomama said:

So did anything actually happen on the Anniversary?

Nope.  That was sort of the point, that people ascribed apocalyptic significance to a date that didn't mean anything.

[Tim Thomason]

Nora's Daily Victorian newspaper at the beginning had a date of "Monday, October 15, 2018", one day after the (Australian) anniversary of the Departure. Which jibes with Kevin's last appearance, and implies almost a full day for Nora and Matt to confront the physicists and convince them to irradiate her. The newspaper had a headline that said "Financial Markets Hold Steady Despite Fears of Seventh Anniversary Sell-Off."

So even the stockbrokers knew that it was all a meaningless anniversary (just like the other six, two of which we saw previously). I feel bad for Arturo, who wanted to be with his family, but was stuck in Tasmania (presumably) waiting for his preacher to return with the Saviour and heal the world or something.

[Juliegirlj]

Nora learned that the brutal truth is not all it's cracked up to be. Sometimes a nicer story works better. Her symbolic breaking down the door in her home and uphill climb to free the scapegoat and carry it's sin beads showed that leap of faith. In the end, she writes her own story that allows her to come to grips with her past, and the loss of her family, and to move forward with Kevin.  Just as Kevin's metaphysical journey allowed him to find peace within himself, and his rewriting the Nora and Kevin backstory gave him the courage to find and approach Nora. 

The interpretation of the character's journeys is similar to how people look at religion- some believe the literal interpretation, some take it as a guide with a bigger message, and some believe religion to be just a fiction. 

[shapeshifter]

3 hours ago, Juliegirlj said:

Nora learned that the brutal truth is not all it's cracked up to be. Sometimes a nicer story works better. Her symbolic breaking down the door in her home and uphill climb to free the scapegoat and carry it's sin beads showed that leap of faith. In the end, she writes her own story that allows her to come to grips with her past, and the loss of her family, and to move forward with Kevin.  Just as Kevin's metaphysical journey allowed him to find peace within himself, and his rewriting the Nora and Kevin backstory gave him the courage to find and approach Nora. 

The interpretation of the character's journeys is similar to how people look at religion- some believe the literal interpretation, some take it as a guide with a bigger message, and some believe religion to be just a fiction. 

Likewise do interpretations vary for visual arts, music, etc., but I think you're onto something here, @Juliegirlj, in that the show is as much about interpretation (especially of the spiritual) as the show's story itself is open to interpretation.

[meep.meep]

On 6/6/2017 at 5:14 PM, scrb said:

It's not going to affect her career but Carrie C*** should have really considered adopting a stage name.

I think this is her first big role?  Seem to recall reading that she was doing local or regional theater in Wisconsin before being cast in this show.

If that was the case, her profile was obviously going to blow up.

She has a Tony.

Probably knows what she's doing.

[Macbeth]

On 6/7/2017 at 2:24 PM, RedHackle said:

I'm going to miss the show.  Just trying to observe a respectable interval before I start bingeing it from episode 1.

I have no such restraint.  And watching it, in light of the finale, is a big revelation.  I am liking it much more the 2nd time around.

[tennisgurl]

So, I put this off for super long time, and now that I've seen it, I'm torn between being really happy with how things turned out, and laughing my ass off over the fact that my ridiculous crack theory came true! Back when the show first came out, I told my sister, when we started watching it, that I bet that the 2% had all just gone to another version of Earth where the 98% disappeared, and everything was normal over there except for a MUCH smaller population. She thought it was stupid, and I eventually agreed with her. Now that I've seen this episode before she did however? I'm going to "told you so-ing" all over the place!

In retrospect, I'm not that surprised it ended like this, with more of an epilogue than anything huge and dramatic. I never thought there would be a great flood or some other disaster, because its not what the show was about. Its not Mad Max, its about dealing with loss and how to move on from it, and how people try to find meaning and explanations for things that have no explanation. The disappearance was basically a metaphor for when anything bad or just dramatic happens, and people cant find a real meaning behind it, and desperately try to because they think it will make them feel better. In the end, however, we don't need to know what happened, much like how we don't know why bad things happen to good people or what happens after we die or anything like that, or any big questions, and that's alright. You just have to try to live your life to the best of your ability, and I think that's a really solid ending for the show. Its not as weird as I would have expected, but I think it fits the theme really well.

I think we are supposed to have doubts about what Nora saw on the Other Side, even though I more or less take her on her word. The reason we don't see it, I think, is because we are supposed to have doubts, much like Kevin's flashes to the International Assassin universe? Is it a real parallel universe? The afterlife? Just Kevin being delusional? We don know, and that's alright. We don't know for sure if Nora really went to another world and saw her family, or if she just had a delirious dream after half drowning, or if she just made the whole thing up. Like the nun said, it was a nice story either way. It gave Nora her closure, and that's all she has ever wanted. Other than that, we can just let the mystery be.

That was a great final scene for Matt. I always thought that the relationship between Matt and Nora was underused, and I'm glad his swan song was connecting with his sister. It does make me sad Nora didn't make it to his funeral though. I hope he found some happiness before he passed.

However, most important, Kevin and Nora are Endgame, and its exactly what I wanted. I don't care if its cheesy, its what I want and I got it and I'm happy.

[MrSmith]

On 6/7/2017 at 2:48 PM, Penman61 said:

Good points about Nora's honesty and bullshit aversion.

I can't agree about the moral imperative to not disclose what happened to the Sudden Departed.   It could very well be that many--most?--couldn't handle the truth, as you plausibly describe.  Certainly some would still want to know where the 2% went.  But that is not for Nora to decide. People deserve to have facts--especially life-or-death facts--about the people they care about.  How they manage that is up to them.  Not Nora.  For her to withhold that information is morally reprehensible.

She has the right to make that decision because most people wouldn't believe her. Sorry I got so worked up in my previous post. I'm very close to my wife. Honestly, if this all really happened, after seven years I would finally be mostly adjusted to her absence. I would not want some random stranger riding into my life thinking they're going to be a white knight by telling me, "By the way, your wife is alive and well on a quantum copy of this planet. If you want to be with her again, all you have to do is track down these physicists who move around and are notoriously difficult to find and even more difficult to convince that you should actually be sent to the other Earth. Good luck!" And that is why my post ended the way it did: I wouldn't care one whit about that stranger and their safety would absolutely not be guaranteed in my presence after dropping that bomb on me. That's assuming that I even believe what they have to say, though it's likely I would because I'm intelligent, interested in such things, and therefore more educated about these things than many people. For those people who are not as well educated, they're more likely not to believe her and are more likely to chase her off with the threat of violence for coming into their lives and disrupting them by causing all of that upset and hurt all over again. I really can't see anyone who isn't a politician, leader, or tv personality actually laughing her off; I would think most people would react from a place of emotional violence. The ones who would laugh at her are the ones who are intelligent, well educated, and yet not educated about the theories around quantum physics. The news would make her a laughingstock and she would never have a place to hide because everyone would know who she is. And with the world we live in, there would be at least one crazy person who would actually hunt her down. She would literally never again be safe anywhere in the world. There is no moral imperative that she share what happened to her or the reality of the quantum situation. In fact, since it would threaten her very existence to share this information with a wide audience, I would say she has a moral imperative not to share it.

Edited June 10, 2017 by MrSmith

[shapeshifter]

9 hours ago, MrSmith said:

...I would not want some random stranger riding into my life thinking they're going to be a white knight by telling me, "By the way, your wife is alive and well on a quantum copy of this planet. If you want to be with her again, all you have to do is track down these physicists who move around and are notoriously difficult to find and even more difficult to convince that you should actually be sent to the other Earth…

To me, OTOH, this sounds like a potentially great followup series with different characters. But I'm also content with the end we got to be the last word on the event.

[TimWil]

I believe Nora because I think that Carrie C*** believes it happened and that Damon Lindelof (who trumps Tom Perrota in most eyes as the uber storyteller for this show) believes it happened.

The fabulous Mimi Leder "liked" my response to an instagram post she put up on the night of the series finale! I wrote "Proud to be a former GR member but I could tell from that very first wardrobe test I participated in that there would be conflicts over whether we should be distressed and unkempt or pristine and pissy. I did enjoy literally rolling around in the dirt in that backyard on LI for that shot of us "dead" in that pick up truck. That was cool."

The rumor was HBO wanted us to look as spotless as possible but Warner Bros TV wanted us to look disheveled. Or maybe it was the other way around. In any event Leder was all too aware of the "issue"!

Edited June 11, 2017 by TimWil

[Macbeth]

I love Nora and I have very serious problems with Kevin.  I guess if Nora is truly Kevin's end game than I should not have been surprised that they ended up together.

Given his serious mental health issues, inherited from his father, I worry now that he finally caught Nora - he will end up running away  again.  I believe Nora knows that is always a possibility.

I do like that this show that Kevin's possibility of being a "Messiah" is just a psychotic break from reality.  What gives me hope for Kevin is that, unlike his father, he knew that the "Messiah" story was a lie.  It was always a chance for him to die again and deal with how he had killed Patty.

Yes I am Lindelof's bitch.  And as it is his viewpoint that Nora's story is true, than I believe it to be true, as he did leave little breadcrumbs in the first season at least for me to find.

[BooBear]

On 6/5/2017 at 1:39 AM, catrox14 said:

I really didn't understand what happened TBH. I don't understand why they didn't show us Nora's trip. 

I think they did that to cast doubt on it so we could endlessly debate forever if it happened. Personally I think it did.  The show has also been clear about the fact that it never would really answer much about the departure and of course, the song that played over the credits was "let the mystery be". Finally Nora isn't dead so I am guessing she wasn't hit with tons of radiation and had to go someplace. 

Didn't love it. Kevin's lying was just crazy and stupid. I felt like we wasted a lot of time with that ruse.  In the end the idea of Kevin and Nora getting back together seems like a nightmare. Kevin just has never been able to handle it. He wants what he can't have until he can, then he doesn't want it. Though he has learned a lot about himself I bet he will never fully escape it.  Nora I think could live happily since she has changed her name and moved to Australia her "departure" tragedy isn't rung around her neck. 

If Kevin is immortal why does he care about a pacemaker ?

This season was most interesting for the early episodes but I feel like the end sputtered out a bit. 

[ganesh]

On 6/18/2017 at 6:03 AM, BooBear said:

I think they did that to cast doubt on it so we could endlessly debate forever if it happened.

I agree, but I'm not going to endlessly debate it. I honestly don't care. The finale was typical; TPTBs have decent ideas that are poorly executed and expect the viewers to fill in the gaps themselves. I think it was a colossally bad idea to try to explain the departure at all and just not well thought out. I just never really bought into much of the reactions to the departure. I still maintain Nora should have been the main character for what I think they were trying to do with the show. 

[crookedjackson44]

I will really miss this show.  The first season was an ordeal and nearly impossible to understand.  But I stayed with it, and season 2 was good.  This season was spectacular.  The acting, the story, the filmmaking was all superb.  My only consolation is that Game of Thrones is coming soon.

[Captanne]

Although I had reservations and frustrations about this series (particularly the very acid-trippy episodes), I think it was outstanding. Really remarkable. 

 

ETA:  I didn't realize the creator also did Lost.  I made it about three episodes into Lost and stopped.  The smoke monster along with the panther (?) on the island turned me off immediately.  It doesn't help that I spent twenty years as an international jet pilot -- so the plane crash to start with was just too much for me.  (By that I mean, outlandish.)  I flew the Atlantic routes (European, West African, and South America) while my BFF flew the Pacific.  Neither he nor I could watch the show.

The Leftovers, however, was just fantastic.  (Except, as I mention, the trippy shit which I didn't like at all.  If the Assassin didn't play such a big part, that episode would have ruined the entire series for me.)  I think the big difference for me was that the plot stayed on the edge of credible (unlike Lost, for me) and the performances were just sublime.    

Edited July 5, 2017 by Captanne

[Jodithgrace]

The television and movies in the 2% place must really suck..with nobody but Gary Busey and the cast of Perfect Strangers (plus the other celebrities mentioned in episode 1, whose names I've forgotten) Though at least Mark Lin-Baker is there now so that they can film the Perfect Strangers reunion show. 

I just binge watched the entire series over the past few days. I'd been meaning to do so after I inadvertantly caught episodes 1 and 2 of season 3, and since I loved Carrie C*** in Fargo. I didn't want to watch more of season 3 until i had caught up.

I thought the explanation of the world splitting into 2 was excellent. I don't need a scientifically plausible explanation, but I need one that makes logical sense, and this did. I think they were smart to call this show quits after 3 seasons, especially since the book only covered season 1. Going on too long is what sunk Lost. That, and having no predetermined end game. This series was short and concise and seemed to know where it was going. Having that bit of doubt about Nora's story, since it wasn't shown, didn't bother me at all, as long as there was a complete story.

And personally, i am a sucker for epilogues. I love knowing what happened to everybody after the main story ends. And thank goodness, they didn't have to age the entire cast! 

Just loved this show and am glad I finally got to see it. 

[ganesh]

Not only the limited acting pool; perhaps more people would try acting, but all the support that goes into making movies etc., too. There's probably lots more plays there. 

[Captanne]

I can't seem to edit my post -- it wasn't a panther in Lost that made me turn the channel (that was in 24, which I also couldn't stand) -- it was a polar bear.  Sorry for mixing up the highly inappropriate and bizarre large, dangerous mammals on two shows I thought were just the worst and, yet, were very popular in the mainstream.  LOL

 

PS:  I now have a girl crush on Carrie C***.

Edited July 13, 2017 by Captanne

[ganesh]

It didn't even phaze me. Lost was such as mess I figured there was a panther in there that I missed at some point. 

[aemom]

Well, I've finally finished watching everything and had some time to absorb and reflect. 

I do like how it ended and that Nora and Kevin found their way to each other.

Is Nora's story true or not? That's the big question.  The only part of her story that I really had a hard time believing was that the scientist agreed to build the return machine for her. That would have taken an unbelievable amount of time and resources in that world and why would he build it just for her? I would have preferred hearing that when she finally found him, he had already built it or was working on building it because a few other people also wanted to return.  That's a story I would have had an easier time believing. I think that there could easily be others who wanted to go back.

At any rate, that final season was first rate and I enjoyed watching the series. But I think that if I had watched it weekly spread over the 2+ years, I would not have enjoyed it as much.

Edited September 10, 2017 by AEMom
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