Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[Lady Iris]

Hey! At least he got a nifty wheelchair outta his visions.

[Affogato]

42 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

The only ending for a character like Cersei would be execution. Dying essentially in an accident is not satisfying, nor does it pay off her long-standing supervillainess status. It would be like Darth Vader dying in the Death Star by falling debris, or crashing his TIE fighter into a Star Destroyer. There isn't any pay off to it. She should have to be humiliated in surrender, tried and publically executed, same as happened to Ned. 

But tripping and choking on a grape while going to the window to watch the war is a lot like real life. 

[BadAssRobinArryn]

The Red Keep literally crashing down upon Cersei would be a very Fitting end (ignoring the Valonqar Prophecy).

[Chiny11]

[screamin]

Lemuria posted an interesting video speculating about Jon's motives and future actions in the episode thread: Jon's choice to become Aegon

I really like the idea that Jon is subconsciously making choices that further his own 'hints of ambition' as the video says, to eventually be handed the throne. He knows he's handed Sansa a weapon to use against Dany if she ever gives Sansa an order she can't abide, like, say, demanding too much in taxes, or too many men for further war, or ordering Sansa to marry someone she doesn't want to to secure their alliance for her kingdom - which, as queen, she has a perfect right to order Sansa to do. He'd know he's enabled Sansa to say, "Fuck you, you're not the real queen!" and raise the banners of rebellion.

He may not realize that Sansa has so little confidence in Dany's command that she thinks they might well be beaten and slaughtered by Cersei if Dany's calling the shots, hence has decided to give the Hand of the Queen the knowledge that there's an alternative monarch available if the Queen fucks things up too badly. Then again, maybe Jon DOES realize it. Sansa saved his ass once by maneuvering behind his back because she didn't have enough confidence in his judgement; why shouldn't he expect her to do it again?

And wouldn't it be far better optics and PR for Jon's future reign as king of the Iron Throne if he at first is seen to humbly refuse the kingdom and order his superior claim to be kept a secret, only to HAVE to accept the crown when his Queen shows her unfitness and the Queen's own men beg him to take the throne and save the kingdom? That makes him look a lot better than being another ambitious backstabbing fucker who vows fealty to his queen and then breaks the vow by declaring his own claim to the throne himself.

Now I'm wondering if one of the final scenes will be Tyrion - either in public at his trial, or in private afterwards among the main cast members while awaiting his execution - doing a scene like the lawyer did at the end of The Caine Mutiny, (spoiler warning) when he explained that the man on trial who actually carried out the mutiny and his helpers

Spoiler

were all just manipulated into their actions by the man who really wanted to be the captain of the Caine.

I can imagine Dinklage as Tyrion eloquently pointing out one by one the things Jon said and did to subtly undermine Dany; his saying to the Northern Council that he nobly and self-sacrificially HAD to give up his crown to Dany to save the North when Dany demanded no such thing, his silent smug acceptance of the praise of his prowess and kingship in the victory celebration afterwards instead of crediting Dany for him, and finally his spreading the information about his superior claim among people he KNEW would probably use it sooner or later against the queen. I can also imagine Jon's face slowly crumbling into horror and guilt as he acknowledges that half-consciously he HAS been playing the Game of Thrones himself to a 'successful' conclusion, himself as the crowned victor, and Dany, who he still loves, as the loser.

What happens after that? I don't know, maybe Jon rules on with the miserable knowledge that he needs to ALWAYS guard himself against his own venal, unworthy ambition, making him a more humane (if depressed) king of Westeros. Or maybe he melts down the Iron Throne and the remnants of the Seven Kingdoms make an alliance that will last a generation and let everyone heal, with the commoners getting a slightly greater hand in the rule (Gendry as an erstwhile commoner being sympathetic to that goal). The Starks go their separate ways, alive, sadder but wiser.

I don't know that I'd call this a 'bittersweet' conclusion, unless you're looking at it from the point of view of the commoners who've been so damaged by the discredited Game of Thrones. Myself, I think I'd prefer the ending of Jon killing Dany's last dragon, and then (having wrecked their own power base in Westeros) the Targaryens reconcile and go off to Nath together to build their own house with a red door and use their remaining men to drive slavers away from the island for the rest of their days. I recognize, however, that's highly unlikely.

I do think the 'Caine Mutiny' ending will be a lot more interesting and satisfying than the painful spectacle of Jon bumbling and falling ass-backwards into the Supreme Rule of Westeros despite his best intentions - he didn't mean to, really! It just happened that way! - and then ending on the assumption that such an arrant idiot would be a great king to Westeros ever after.

Edited May 10, 2019 by screamin
The comma is your friend.

[Umbelina]

2 hours ago, Portia4844 said:

As annoyed as I am with D&D's writing, it's still hard to believe that they'd turn Dany into another version of Cersei who doesn't care how many innocent people get torched.  Two crazy Queens destroying KL because they both want the Throne seems a bit much.  

To believe Dany has gone completely insane at this point would require me to think she can only make choices that aren't crazy if she has some wise man telling her not to do it.  It would have to mean that she  is no longer capable of caring who she destroys.  

One Queen has always been an evil bitch, one is pushed to fury by the loss of her best friend, the loss of two of her children/dragons, apparent betrayal by Varys at least, Jon being the rightful heir AND squicked out by being her nephew, and I think, all of her expectations of immediate love and joy and flowers in the streets at her Targ return are dust.  They don't like her, and face it, Dany has always thrived on massive outpourings of love, respect, near worship.  So the end of an entire life's quest is beyond disappointing.

I can believe this IS GRRM's ending quite easily.  Dany has often resorted to fire and blood when she's angry, but in the past she had people like Missandei and Jorah to remind her of her heart. 

The problem is, that this IS all too rushed, and it isn't satisfying because so many other questions we've had are just being ignored or brushed over.  Who is the NK, what is his motivation?  We've seen Bran foretell the future as well as see the past, so what IS the 3ER?  They don't seem to want to deal with all of the magical resolve of this story, just end WINTER in one damn night and move back to politics.

Nothing has been fleshed out, and that includes Dany's decent into madness or, as I tend to think of it, unchecked fury.  For example I think Dany finding out that Jon is the true heir must be devastating to her.  That is her whole identity, that's why she's done everything since we first see her marriage to Drogo.  Her very SELF has been ripped from her.

I really suggest listening to this podcast, it does a much better job at describing the RUSH JOB we are getting, and how many important beats, emotional and canon and magical beats D&D are ignoring in their mad rush to end this better than I ever could.  We SHOULD have seen Jon tell Sansa and Ayra about his true parentage.  We DESERVE that after all the years of anguish and story that secret has caused, but zip/rush nothing.

So I'm finally on board with the whole the showrunners suck thing, because, while I'm still grateful for an ending which I do believe is very much like GRRMs in the outline, has none of the flesh/payoff/beauty/sadness/impact that it really should.  Their choice to do this, not HBO's.  Very sad.

https://www.theringer.com/binge-mode/2019/5/9/18549172/game-of-thrones-s8e4-the-last-of-the-starks

1 hour ago, stagmania said:

Jaime kills Euron?? What the hell, why?

Why not?  Also, there could be a connection to the GC surrendering that isn't just absolute fear of dragons burning them to death, since Euron hired them and is dead.  I have a little hope that it's more than jealousy, and a part of Jaime IS trying to end this that way.

1 hour ago, SNeaker said:

Wasn't there some spoiler about Dany giving a speech and the people not liking it?

They'll probably make it out that she lit them up for rejecting her.

That makes sense to me, she has always thrived on and expected adoration.  In many ways she earned it in the past, but most of those people were slaves who needed her freeing them, or Dorthraki who respect power.  Westeros isn't like other places she's conquered, and she never bothered to learn who "her people" are, so driven to be Queen, she fucked up?

1 hour ago, blixie said:

I'm not mad at it, but he went all the way to KL ostensibly to reunite/confront/save Cersei but his first order of business is to kill his rival who would probably die by Drogon fire anyway? It's random. 

Unless it is to also stop the war, maybe Euron bragged about the GC being beholding to HIM, not Cersei.  I would like that, one last attempt at honor for Jaime.

1 hour ago, Andromeda said:

It would explain why Sam had to tell Jon NOW about Jon's parentage...

But it would be so stupid, too. Like a pull-it-out-of-your-ass,, unearned trick.

As for Dany, I would love it if she turned into a dragon herself. No wonder she alone is impervious to fire, like real dragons. Plus, she likes fire, like a dragon. Then she and Drogon could fly away to somewhere safe and have lots of dragon babies. (I know, I know, the non-magic people would freak!)

Pretty sure D&D want very little to do with magic now, it's all war and blood.  I have hopes that they will at LEAST address whether or not Dragons/WW have a connection, and could return again, etc.  Magic still exists, the completely ignored Direwolves, Bran...so perhaps Fire and Ice could come again if not handled properly.

47 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

The only ending for a character like Cersei would be execution. Dying essentially in an accident is not satisfying, nor does it pay off her long-standing supervillainess status. It would be like Darth Vader dying in the Death Star by falling debris, or crashing his TIE fighter into a Star Destroyer. There isn't any pay off to it. She should have to be humiliated in surrender, tried and publically executed, same as happened to Ned. 

I agree, however, the building might fall on her (if that happens) because of a direct attack by Dany on Drogon or something.  Jaime might do a mercy killing.

I wanted her to suffer though, by the Valanqar or Arya, so ...

40 minutes ago, SeanC said:

I have to say, what is the finale going to be about if all that happens in 805?  The only remaining spoilers are the council scene where Bran is made king and then the epilogue.

Maybe a Dream of Spring with some questions resolved and a country healing?  Nah, too much to ask.

[Morrigan2575]

1 hour ago, Uncle JUICE said:

The only ending for a character like Cersei would be execution. Dying essentially in an accident is not satisfying, nor does it pay off her long-standing supervillainess status. It would be like Darth Vader dying in the Death Star by falling debris, or crashing his TIE fighter into a Star Destroyer. There isn't any pay off to it. She should have to be humiliated in surrender, tried and publically executed, same as happened to Ned. 

Hmm, formal execution was never one of my thoughts for Cersei. I always expected Jamie or Tyrion to kill her or for Cersei to kill herself (like Cleopatra). Frankly, Cersei/Jamie dying together in some form has always seemed right for their story.

So I have to disagree that her only ending was to be tried and executed. That doesn't fit IMO.

[loki567]

I've had one simple rule when following GoT the last four seasons. NEVER ASSUME THAT THESE WRITERS ARE DOING THE INTERESTING OR COMPLEX THING. Everything, every character beat and story detail, is laid out in the most simple, starkest (no pun intended) terms. The internet graveyard is littered with instances of people trying to give complex meanings to GoT's shit writing and it never ever amounts to anything. 

I've seen a bunch of "Political Jon," stuff this year and absolutely not going to go down like that. Dany will go crazy because of Missandei's death, Jon will kill her because of her craziness, the end. 

D&D are such strange writers and in how they really seem to think it's not a writer's job to give their characters or story inner meaning. Their response of , "Themes are for eighth-grade book reports," is the most unusual thing I can ever remember seeing from two professional writers in an interview about their work. And even their cast members often seem completely befuddled by D&D's refusal to give them any real direction in why their characters to do the things they do. 

[Lillith]

11 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Hmm, formal execution was never one of my thoughts for Cersei. I always expected Jamie or Tyrion to kill her or for Cersei to kill herself (like Cleopatra). Frankly, Cersei/Jamie dying together in some form has always seemed right for their story.

So I have to disagree that her only ending was to be tried and executed. That doesn't fit IMO.

I agree that the idea of her being tried and executed is probably the most satisfying for a lot of people but I don't see it happening on this show in particular and to her character. She'd jump out of the Red Keep I think before submitting to a trial. And this show does not have much in the way of justice except for the ocassional poetic comeuppance. But it's generally due to sabotage of some sort and very little formal punishment. 

[Stallion12]

17 minutes ago, screamin said:

Lemuria posted an interesting video speculating about Jon's motives and future actions in the episode thread: Jon's choice to become Aegon

I really like the idea that Jon is subconsciously making choices that further his own 'hints of ambition' as the video says, to eventually be handed the throne. He knows he's handed Sansa a weapon to use against Dany if she ever gives Sansa an order she can't abide, like, say, demanding too much in taxes, or too many men for further war, or ordering Sansa to marry someone she doesn't want to to secure their alliance for her kingdom - which, as queen, she has a perfect right to order Sansa to do. He'd know he's enabled Sansa to say, "Fuck you, you're not the real queen!" and raise the banners of rebellion.

He may not realize that Sansa has so little confidence in Dany's command that she thinks they might well be beaten and slaughtered by Cersei if Dany's calling the shots, hence has decided to give the Hand of the Queen the knowledge that there's an alternative monarch available if the Queen fucks things up too badly. Then again, maybe Jon DOES realize it. Sansa saved his ass once by maneuvering behind his back because she didn't have enough confidence in his judgement; why shouldn't he expect her to do it again?

And wouldn't it be far better optics and PR for Jon's future reign as king of the Iron Throne if he at first is seen to humbly refuse the kingdom and order his superior claim to be kept a secret, only to HAVE to accept the crown when his Queen shows her unfitness and the Queen's own men beg him to take the throne and save the kingdom? That makes him look a lot better than being another ambitious backstabbing fucker who vows fealty to his queen and then breaks the vow by declaring his own claim to the throne himself.

Now I'm wondering if one of the final scenes will be Tyrion - either in public at his trial, or in private afterwards among the main cast members while awaiting his execution - doing a scene like the lawyer did at the end of The Caine Mutiny, (spoiler warning) when he explained that the man on trial who actually carried out the mutiny and his helpers

  Hide contents

were all just manipulated into their actions by the man who really wanted to be the captain of the Caine.

I can imagine Dinklage as Tyrion eloquently pointing out one by one the things Jon said and did to subtly undermine Dany; his saying to the Northern Council that he nobly and self-sacrificially HAD to give up his crown to Dany to save the North when Dany demanded no such thing, his silent smug acceptance of the praise of his prowess and kingship in the victory celebration afterwards instead of crediting Dany for him, and finally his spreading the information about his superior claim among people he KNEW would probably use it sooner or later against the queen. I can also imagine Jon's face slowly crumbling into horror and guilt as he acknowledges that half-consciously he HAS been playing the Game of Thrones himself to a 'successful' conclusion, himself as the crowned victor, and Dany, who he still loves, as the loser.

What happens after that? I don't know, maybe Jon rules on with the miserable knowledge that he needs to ALWAYS guard himself against his own venal, unworthy ambition making him a more humane (if depressed) king of Westeros. Or maybe he melts down the Iron Throne and the remnants of the Seven Kingdoms make an alliance that will last a generation and let everyone heal, with the commoners getting a slightly greater hand in the rule (Gendry as an erstwhile commoner being sympathetic to that goal). The Starks go their separate ways, alive, sadder but wiser.

I don't know that I'd call this a 'bittersweet' conclusion, unless you're looking at it from the point of view of the commoners who've been so damaged by the discredited Game of Thrones. Myself, I think I'd prefer the ending of Jon killing Dany's last dragon, and then (having wrecked their own power base in Westeros) the Targaryens reconcile and go off to Nath together to build their own house with a red door and use their remaining men to drive slavers away from the island for the rest of their days. I recognize, however, that's highly unlikely.

I do think the 'Caine Mutiny' ending will be a lot more interesting and satisfying than the painful spectacle of Jon bumbling and falling ass-backwards into the Supreme Rule of Westeros despite his best intentions - he didn't mean to, really! It just happened that way! - and then ending on the assumption that such an arrant idiot would be a great king to Westeros ever after.

I'd like this.

[screamin]

18 hours ago, Lemuria said:

But she was at tha BoTB, wasn’t she?  She held back that there was an army coming to help them. If Jon and Davis had known that, they would have tap danced the day away, waiting. 

Jon would've tap-danced and stood idly watching while Ramsey shot Rickon in front of him? Not happening. And if Jon had shown up with superior forces, Ramsey could withdraw into WF, slam the gates behind him and let them besiege him for the next year or two, with Jon's forces at the mercy of LF AND the NK advancing all the while.

Edited May 10, 2019 by screamin

[Morrigan2575]

28 minutes ago, screamin said:

Lemuria posted an interesting video speculating about Jon's motives and future actions in the episode thread: Jon's choice to become Aegon

I really like the idea that Jon is subconsciously making choices that further his own 'hints of ambition' as the video says, to eventually be handed the throne. He knows he's handed Sansa a weapon to use against Dany if she ever gives Sansa an order she can't abide, like, say, demanding too much in taxes, or too many men for further war, or ordering Sansa to marry someone she doesn't want to to secure their alliance for her kingdom - which, as queen, she has a perfect right to order Sansa to do. He'd know he's enabled Sansa to say, "Fuck you, you're not the real queen!" and raise the banners of rebellion.

I said the other day that I wanted Jon to have used Sansa or that the Starks came up with this plan after the reveal.

I kind of like the idea that Jon is as much of an ambitious asshole as the rest of them. Plus at least this way Jon wouldn't be an idiot about everything).

Plus, I really want some reason for the cut scene of the Starks reveal. Like did the show really think that Arya and Sansa's reaction to finding out Jon wasn't Ned's bastard wasn't important? Oh yeah, let's just cut this scene for time, no biggie

Edited May 10, 2019 by Morrigan2575

[dirtypop90]

9 minutes ago, Stallion12 said:

I'd like this.

Me too.  But I'm not going to let people get my hopes up about Jon.

[LadyPenelope]

2 hours ago, Uncle JUICE said:

The only ending for a character like Cersei would be execution. Dying essentially in an accident is not satisfying, nor does it pay off her long-standing supervillainess status. It would be like Darth Vader dying in the Death Star by falling debris, or crashing his TIE fighter into a Star Destroyer. There isn't any pay off to it. She should have to be humiliated in surrender, tried and publically executed, same as happened to Ned. 

Cersei has already been tortured, imprisoned, publicly humiliated, and watched everyone she loves die or abandon her. She has suffered. 

I’m sort of coming around to some of these spoilers. I especially like the idea of Arya being distracted from her list by trying to help people in KL. Having her choose life over death is the only way I can see her having any future that isn’t just ‘dead eyed vigilante’. 

It seems like a lot of the characters are being given endings that are ‘bittersweet’. Jorah died, but he died protecting Dany. Theon died as a Stark, having received absolution from Bran. If these spoilers are accurate, the Hound will go out destroying his brother, Jaime gets a hero moment before dying in the arms of the woman he loves as promised, Jon will be free in the North with Ghost by his side. The only person who is utterly fucked over is Dany. 

[Portia4844]

32 minutes ago, screamin said:

Lemuria posted an interesting video speculating about Jon's motives and future actions in the episode thread: Jon's choice to become Aegon

I really like the idea that Jon is subconsciously making choices that further his own 'hints of ambition' as the video says, to eventually be handed the throne. He knows he's handed Sansa a weapon to use against Dany if she ever gives Sansa an order she can't abide, like, say, demanding too much in taxes, or too many men for further war, or ordering Sansa to marry someone she doesn't want to to secure their alliance for her kingdom - which, as queen, she has a perfect right to order Sansa to do. He'd know he's enabled Sansa to say, "Fuck you, you're not the real queen!" and raise the banners of rebellion.

That would certainly be a twist.

It's hard to imagine this being how Martin chooses to go with Jon unless coming back from the dead has altered his personality to this degree.  It would feel more of a D&D saying "Surprise!! Bet you didn't see that coming."   

Based on the Jon I've been shown so far, I thought telling Sansa and Arya had more to do with wanting them to know that Ned wasn't his father and that it was never about his actual father kidnapping and raping his mother.  Whether he's viewed as boring to some, he seems much like Ned.  Not the most exciting person around but one who is still honorable and decent.  

I'll be more surprised than most if Tyrion betrays Dany in some way that leads to his death or Dany becomes a crazy-eyed killer of the innocent, or Jon plots with or without his own knowledge to sit on the Throne or to protect Sansa from Dany down the road.  

[Constantinople]

I don't care who kills Euron so long as he ends up dead

If Dany doesn't believe the bells of surrender, I tend to blame Cersei

[Bianca Castafiore]

Jon Snow being cosniously or not a manipulative and ambitious asshole is really a wtf theory for me and I'm not even a fan. If we were talking about BookJon yes, I could see it somehow. But ShowJon has been dropping IQ points basically in every episode since his ressurection. Not to mention that we hardly ever saw any POV scene since then.

I mean, we're talking about the man who was so dumb to take his sister advice and basically lost BotB only to be saved by her. And then he met Dany, fell in love with her in two seconds, agreed to go in the stupidest mission ever only to be saved again by another woman. He then bents the knee because of course he luuuuves her and blurbs some ecxuses in front of the Nothern lords to be saved by Tyrion this time. After he discovers his true identity again no POV scenes. During the BoW he is saved AGAIN by Dany because, well, once apparently was not enoungh. Of course he doesn't even kill the NK and ends up screaming at the dragon only to become an internet meme. When Dany asks him to hide his true identity and continue to be a bastard for the rest of his life he doesn't even have the guts to say: wait a minute how about my feelings, my desire? And of course he loses the few brain cells he has left by revealing the secret to the absolute wrong person at the absolute worst time possible.

I'm not even sure if THAT Jon is capable of thinking about killing Dany once everything goes to hell much less about undermine her. And you say that this would be clever writing?

Edited May 10, 2019 by Bianca Castafiore

[bijoux]

3 hours ago, stagmania said:

Jaime kills Euron?? What the hell, why?

He's the third killer according to the spoilers, isn't he? First it was Drogon, then Yara, now Jaime. It could be either of them. Or The Mountain steps on him accidentally or not.

I think I'm coming around on Cersei being crushed by a building. Homage to The Wizard of Oz, perchance?

[screamin]

37 minutes ago, Bianca Castafiore said:

I'm not even sure if THAT Jon is capable of thinking about killing Dany once everything goes to hell much less about undermine her. And you say that this would be clever writing?

I'm saying that having Jon trip and fall into power he genuinely didn't want at all pretty much by pure accident, by making mistakes that just happened to lead people to believe he'd be better suited for the crown (among them telling the North that Dany made him give up his crown to save the North when she didn't, for example) completely unintentionally - even though the result of telling Sansa about his superior claim to the throne would be quite predictably used against Dany sooner or later - makes Jon look like a naive idiot who shouldn't be trusted with scissors, much less an Iron Throne. That, IMO, would be worse writing than having Jon half-consciously choosing to do things that would make it more likely to have the throne given to him eventually.

Edited May 10, 2019 by screamin

[Portia4844]

I would enjoy Arya killing Jaime for what he did to Bran and the rest of her family but only after he watches her kill Cersei.  I'm one of the few who has never liked Jaime or thought he was worth a redeeming arc.   

[SueB]

8 hours ago, GrailKing said:

Bronn dies of the pox in his shiny new castle.

...as a complication from compromised immune system due to his ragging case of the clap.

[Minneapple]

15 minutes ago, Portia4844 said:

I would enjoy Arya killing Jaime for what he did to Bran and the rest of her family but only after he watches her kill Cersei.  I'm one of the few who has never liked Jaime or thought he was worth a redeeming arc.   

Yeah,  Jaime sucks. His book character has an actual redemption arc, but Show Jaime is the worst. I knew he was probably going to die and I honestly don't care. Brienne deserves better. Go north and find Tormund, Brienne.

[magdalene]

I wouldn't mind Jaime killing Euron as long as it isn't mainly because of jealousy.  From what I remember Euron mocked Jaime in the past.  Euron is loathsome and there are probably quite a few people who want to kill him.  It's funny, I loved the actor in "Borgen" but here he does nothing for me.

Anyways, I have seen at least 3 spoilers of 3 different people killing Euron by now.

[Bianca Castafiore]

40 minutes ago, screamin said:

I'm saying that having Jon trip and fall into power he genuinely didn't want at all pretty much by pure accident, by making mistakes that just happened to lead people to believe he'd be better suited for the crown (among them telling the North that Dany made him give up his crown to save the North when she didn't, for example) completely unintentionally - even though the result of telling Sansa about his superior claim to the throne would be quite predictably used against Dany sooner or later - makes Jon look like a naive idiot who shouldn't be trusted with scissors, much less an Iron Throne. That, IMO, would be worse writing than having Jon half-consciously choosing to do things that would make it more likely to have the throne given to him eventually.

Sure, by based on the spoilers, Jon won't sit on the Throne. So, basically the writers agree with us,This Jon is not suited for the Throne, regardless of what is projected on him. He will end up somewhere in the North, back where he was at the beginning,  alone (and hated by a huge part of the fandom). His story was basically a plot point to further Dany's arc (yeah, yeah I know he was the reason they were able to come together and fight the Dead. But that won't be the final impression)

Edited May 10, 2019 by Bianca Castafiore

[Umbelina]

9 minutes ago, Bianca Castafiore said:

Sure, by based on the spoilers, Jon won't sit on the Throne. So, basically the writers agree with us,This Jon is not suited for the Throne, regardless of what is projected on him. He will end up somewhere in the North, back where he was at the beginning,  alone (and hated by a huge part of the fandom). His story was basically a plot point to further Dany's arc (yeah, yeah I know he was the reason they were able to come together and fight the Dead. But that won't be the final impression)

So you honestly believe GRRM wrote the Dany show?

Jon was important for many reasons, and not wanting to sit on the throne may be one of them, but not the only one.  Aside from that, it seems the goal is to NOT have a throne at the end, so Jon's decision is right.

[Affogato]

1 hour ago, bijoux said:

He's the third killer according to the spoilers, isn't he? First it was Drogon, then Yara, now Jaime. It could be either of them. Or The Mountain steps on him accidentally or not.

I think I'm coming around on Cersei being crushed by a building. Homage to The Wizard of Oz, perchance?

I want the mountain to step on Euron. Please!

[screamin]

23 minutes ago, Bianca Castafiore said:

Sure, by based on the spoilers, Jon won't sit on the Throne. So, basically the writers agree with us,This Jon is not suited for the Throne, regardless of what is projected on him. He will end up somewhere in the North, back where he was at the beginning,  alone (and hated by a huge part of the fandom). His story was basically a plot point to further Dany's arc (yeah, yeah I know he was the reason they were able to come together and fight the Dead. But that won't be the final impression)

Regardless if it's true or not that ultimately Jon doesn't get the Iron Throne, a great deal of Dany's arc is powered by the assumption of a number of important characters that Jon would make a better ruler than Dany. I think it would be worse writing if Jon gave that impression to people and fortified the conspiracy against Dany by sheer inept accident instead of some sense of deliberate purpose.

Edited May 10, 2019 by screamin

[Bianca Castafiore]

8 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

So you honestly believe GRRM wrote the Dany show?

Jon was important for many reasons, and not wanting to sit on the throne may be one of them, but not the only one.  Aside from that, it seems the goal is to NOT have a throne at the end, so Jon's decision is right.

No, D&D wrote the Dany show. And the Cersei show. And the Sansa show. And the Arya show.

[GrailKing]

5 hours ago, haje said:

I would hope that Jaime and Cersei would have a better end than having a building fall on them. Especially Cersei considering she's the big bad but D&D seem to not care anymore so who knows.

I want her to have a humiliating end, myself. She fought so hard for the chair, killed many for it, I be quite happy if the throne room gave her a big FU.

But I feel Lena needs to go out a boss.

Conundrum.

[loki567]

1 hour ago, screamin said:

I'm saying that having Jon trip and fall into power he genuinely didn't want at all pretty much by pure accident, by making mistakes that just happened to lead people to believe he'd be better suited for the crown (among them telling the North that Dany made him give up his crown to save the North when she didn't, for example) completely unintentionally - even though the result of telling Sansa about his superior claim to the throne would be quite predictably used against Dany sooner or later - makes Jon look like a naive idiot who shouldn't be trusted with scissors, much less an Iron Throne. That, IMO, would be worse writing than having Jon half-consciously choosing to do things that would make it more likely to have the throne given to him eventually.

That's the Jon in GoT we've always gotten though. They've always made him exactly that stupid and gullible. It's bad writing, no question. But to suddenly make him into a political genius would be completely different that how they've presented Jon for eight years now. 

[Uncle JUICE]

3 hours ago, Affogato said:

But tripping and choking on a grape while going to the window to watch the war is a lot like real life. 

Yeah, agreed. Except this show has dragons and wizards and witches and giants and sentient wolves. If I wanted dit to be realistic that way I'd watch like the tudors or some shit!

[Andromeda]

A short video capturing the r/freefolk spoilers with show scenes.

[kittykat]

12 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

I want her to have a humiliating end, myself. She fought so hard for the chair, killed many for it, I be quite happy if the throne room gave her a big FU.

But I feel Lena needs to go out a boss.

Conundrum.

Who says we can't have humiliatingly epic?  Maybe as the building collapses she falls through to the throne room and lands on the swords of the throne, middle one right through the head. 

Damn that would actually be awesome.

What has this show done to me.

[screamin]

19 minutes ago, loki567 said:

That's the Jon in GoT we've always gotten though. They've always made him exactly that stupid and gullible. It's bad writing, no question. But to suddenly make him into a political genius would be completely different that how they've presented Jon for eight years now. 

Yes...but.

It just seems to me that Jon untruthfully telling the North that he HAD to give up his crown to Dany to save the North (thus making himself look better and Dany worse), Jon silently and smugly lapping up Tormund's fluffing of his dragonriding and kingship instead of giving due credit to Dany, Jon giving Sansa a weapon against Dany that she could use at any time she feels Dany is doing something too demanding and dangerous to her and hers - all these things look a lot more like sly Jon than stupid Jon. That he's just accidentally engineering an entire conspiracy to put him on the throne instead of Dany and is totally unaware he's doing it seems too much of a stretch to me.

Mind you, I'm fully prepared to find out that I'm wrong, and that every thing I think may be a clever hint to the unexpected revelation of Jon's half-conscious complicity in Dany's fall is just sloppy writing on the part of the showrunners, and their preferred end is that Jon is EXACTLY the purehearted, sweet, innocent, too-stupid-to-live-yet-also-too-stupid-to-die bumbling paragon he currently gives the impression of being. I just think it might be more interesting if he had darker layers.

[Umbelina]

I do think Jon gets completely out of the "game."

I just wish Dany had, I would have loved to see character growth in her, and a realization that she really does not belong in Westeros, it isn't making her happy, it isn't at all what she expected.

I really wish she has jumped off the wheel, taken her living dragons, and found an island with a pretty house with a red door, and a man not her relative to marry.

[rmontro]

14 hours ago, MissLucas said:

There's a chance that 'forgetting the coffee cup' will replace 'jumping the shark' in about 10 days.

Not bad.  But the coffee cup is actually the least of the problems with the way the show is ending. 

[Eyes High]

8 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I do think Jon gets completely out of the "game."

I just wish Dany had, I would have loved to see character growth in her, and a realization that she really does not belong in Westeros, it isn't making her happy, it isn't at all what she expected.

I really wish she has jumped off the wheel, taken her living dragons, and found an island with a pretty house with a red door, and a man not her relative to marry.

When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die...or you retire, if you’re Jon, I guess.

Dany’s arc seems so tragic in retrospect. 

[Umbelina]

1 minute ago, Eyes High said:

When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die...or you retire, if you’re Jon, I guess.

Dany’s arc seems so tragic in retrospect. 

Her brother warped her.

All the damaged people in this tale...

😞

[GraceK]

1 minute ago, Eyes High said:

When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die...or you retire, if you’re Jon, I guess.

Dany’s arc seems so tragic in retrospect. 

That’s because it is. It’s like a self fulfilling prophecy. She was damned no matter what, because people kept telling her she was mad or was going to go mad. And every decision she ever made was predicated on not trying to be seen as mad, when she got to Westeros, and that caution, combined with her good nature, cost her pretty much everything and the death of those she loved. And she has advisors whispering behind her back and plotting against her anyway, regardless. The good she does doesn’t matter, her name has cursed her.  She should have embraced her nature fully instead of fighting it and listening to Tyrion.

[Umbelina]

I think Dany would have been happy living a quiet life.  She was doomed by her brother and his idiotic tales of glory and flowers in the streets and rejoicing in Westeros when Targs came back to rule.

She knew he was a fool, I wish she had rejected all of it, and just found her red door and lived a happy life, found the dragon eggs, got the hell away from the murdering and raping Dothraki, and found her red door.

ASOFAI would have been boring without her though.

[Meredith Quill]

18 minutes ago, rmontro said:

14 hours ago, MissLucas said:

There's a chance that 'forgetting the coffee cup' will replace 'jumping the shark' in about 10 days.

Not bad.  But the coffee cup is actually the least of the problems with the way the show is ending. 

Jumping the dragon?

Euron needs to star in the sequel movie:

The Towering Inferno 2: Drogon's Revenge

Strapline: Dragonslayer becomes dragon poop.

[Brn2bwild]

2 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I think Dany would have been happy living a quiet life.  She was doomed by her brother and his idiotic tales of glory and flowers in the streets and rejoicing in Westeros when Targs came back to rule.

She knew he was a fool, I wish she had rejected all of it, and just found her red door and lived a happy life, found the dragon eggs, got the hell away from the murdering and raping Dothraki, and found her red door.

ASOFAI would have been boring without her though.

Too bad there is no red door in the TV version.  I wouldn't be surprised if they had her mention it in the last scene.

[clack]

I find Dany's arc to be the most dramatically satisfying of all the major characters : a person of good intentions in thrall to a bad idea, this bad idea leading to her downfall.

Because her ancestor invaded and conquered Westeros, she deserves to be absolute ruler of an unwilling populace? Just stating her motive exposes how ego-driven and, yes, evil it is. "Bend the knee, or die".

I like that we have seen developed both aspects of Dany's character -- her innate decency, but also the cost of her tragic ambition. Because her fate is a tragic one, tragic in the tradition of the Ancient Greek playwrights : a good person destroyed by her hubris.

[ShellsandCheese]

39 minutes ago, rmontro said:

Not bad.  But the coffee cup is actually the least of the problems with the way the show is ending. 

I’d love if skewered the dragon replaced jump the shark after that mind boggling illogical idiotic way Rhaegal was disposed of. Ugh. 

Edited May 11, 2019 by ShellsandCheese

[rmontro]

4 hours ago, screamin said:

I don't know that I'd call this a 'bittersweet' conclusion, unless you're looking at it from the point of view of the commoners who've been so damaged by the discredited Game of Thrones.

This ending isn't bittersweet, it's a punch in the gut.  I don't know who thinks it's a good idea to leave your viewers feeling like crap at the end.  It can't be good for the franchise, or for future spinoffs.

I don't know which spoilers are right, but I like the idea of getting rid of the throne altogether, as opposed to having Bran sit on it.  Who wants to see that?

Also, there's the version where Drogon carries off Dany's body.  That sounds like a heartbreaking scene, but I guess it's a small positive that at least one of the dragons survives.....Right?

I'm not sure where a Tyrion trial is supposed to fit in.  If the bells are supposed to signal surrender, but Dany doesn't stop killing, and Jon kills her for that, where is there time or cause for a Tyrion trial?

[Umbelina]

12 minutes ago, rmontro said:

I don't know who thinks it's a good idea to leave your viewers feeling like crap at the end.  It can't be good for the franchise, or for future spinoffs.

As has been stated before.

It's GRRM's idea.  They are his books.  This is his ending.

I suppose, since we will never see those books published, or at least not written by him, it's a  tremendous gift.  We have an ending!

IF D&D changed that ending to suit fan favorites, I would be pissed.

[rmontro]

15 minutes ago, ShellsandCheese said:

I’d love if skewered the dragon replaced jump the shark after that mind boggling illogical idiotic way Rhaegal was disposed of. Ugh. 

How about "invented the new Scorpions"?

2 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

As has been stated before.

It's GRRM's idea.  They are his books.  This is his ending.

It's GRRM's folly.  He said he wanted a bittersweet ending, but he overshot that by a wide margin.  I'm trying to think of a more depressing ending, and off the top of my head I can't think of one.  Even in Romeo and Juliet they are joined together in death;  "Oh happy dagger".

[GraceK]

Thought this was interesting 🤷🏻‍♀️

[Stallion12]

8 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

As has been stated before.

It's GRRM's idea.  They are his books.  This is his ending.

I suppose, since we will never see those books published, or at least not written by him, it's a  tremendous gift.  We have an ending!

IF D&D changed that ending to suit fan favorites, I would be pissed.

This assumes his ending is the bad stuff  supposedly leaked though.  Like Martin said, if the endings deal they might go after him with pitch forks.

[Umbelina]

6 minutes ago, Stallion12 said:

This assumes his ending is the bad stuff  supposedly leaked though.  Like Martin said, if the endings deal they might go after him with pitch forks.

Well, one thing is certain, GRRM won't rush through the ending, or completely ignore important details such as listening to the sisters reacting to the new about Jon and their father concerning his parents.

I also know GRRM will continue to write his best stuff, the plight of the non-royals, which, could make this ending somewhat joyous.  No more throne!

Dany would not suddenly do a complete out of control turn either, though I'm sure she will in the books, it will be much more earned and believable.

Also, I seriously hope Cersei dies long before the climax ending of GoT.

Kind of interesting, stuff wrong with season 8.

Edited May 11, 2019 by Umbelina