Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[SimoneS]

1 hour ago, YaddaYadda said:

Alive or as a wight?

I would think alive. 

58 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

Killing Missandei helps drive up the Dany angst.  Dany only has two real friends - Missandei and Jorah.  If they both die in episode 3 then she'll be devastated and isolated, especially since Tyrion is fulfilling the butt monkey role and there's strain with Jon.

I really hope that they don't kill Missandei. Giving Dany angst is absolutely no reason to do so. Anyway, we'll know soon enough.

I can only begin to imagine the outcry that will result if they kill off one of the only two Black characters. 

Edited April 27, 2019 by SimoneS

[maystone]

10 hours ago, Constantinople said:

I'm curious how the Hound will react to what undoubtedly will be a great deal of fire in the upcoming battle, but I don't have any speculation about it.

He's been traveling around with Beric and his magical flaming sword; he didn't seem put off by the little Lord Umber flambé as much as by the horror of the situation. I think that attitude is going to carry over to fighting the AOTD. If fire is a good weapon, I believe he'll buck up and deal with it. I guess we'll see.

[maystone]

Sapochnik is out with an interview about 8.3, and the big news for me is that he says to consider episodes three, four, and five all of a piece; he says he'd wished he could have directed them all. Also 8.5 has another big battle, so I guess the speculation here that the NK is going to move against KL sounds pretty likely.

The other good news is that he studied Peter Jackson's Battle of Helms Deep for the Winterfell battle. Well, it's good news for me because that's one of my favorite filmed battles.

[cambridgeguy]

16 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

I can only begin to imagine the outcry that will result if they kill off one of the only two Black characters. 

Seriously?  This show already turned Dany into the Great White Hope when she went crowd surfing, has portrayed the Dothraki as savages who proudly proclaim their desire to rape and pillage, had Jaime rape his sister next to the body of their dead son, etc.  I don't see too many people suddenly deciding that the death of Missandei and/or Grey Worm warrants anything more than a shrug, especially since they likely wouldn't be alone in joining the dearly departed.  The death of Tyrion, Jon, Dany, Sansa, Arya, etc. would cause a much, much bigger reaction.

5 minutes ago, maystone said:

The other good news is that he studied Peter Jackson's Battle of Helms Deep for the Winterfell battle. Well, it's good news for me because that's one of my favorite filmed battles. 

Let's hope the WW don't have some gunpowder lying around. 

[anamika]

Quote

Sansa knows that of all the Starks that were ripped from Winterfell, she suffered the most to get it back. She’s the driving force for getting it back. Now she’s being told, “It’s not yours, and it’s not the Starks’ anymore. It belongs to Hitler’s daughter, the worst person in the world’s daughter, the daughter of the person who murdered your grandfather and uncle in the worst way possible. And guess what? Your brother, who you convinced to step up when he wanted to fuck off because of his death experience, bent the knee to her and is telling you that she’s your queen.” What part of Sansa’s reaction to any of this is irrational?

https://www.vulture.com/2019/04/game-of-thrones-bryan-cogman-knight-of-the-seven-kingdoms.html

From Bryan Cogman's interview.

So Sansa thinks that Aerys II was Hitler and killed millions of people of an ethnoreligious group because he wanted a Targaryen race? And that Dany is bad because she is Hitler's daughter? And that Jon Snow is in love with and supports the Nazis?

And Sansa apparently thinks that Jon is undeserving of making decisions about the North because he originally did not want to fight.

If I remember right, Jon agreed to fight because Ramsay send him a letter threatening to kill Rickon. But whatever at this point.

Quote

“I didn’t want Arya to wear the big pelts that Jon, Sansa and Bran have. I didn’t want her to look too much of a Stark, because she really isn’t anymore. Sansa in her costume almost represents Winterfell, but Arya looks as if she’s passing through. Whether or not that’s the case, we’ll have to see.”

So all those storylines about Arya trying to stick onto her identity and Needle and saying 'I am Arya Stark of WF and I am going home',  - all that does still not count on the show?

I need to stop listening to these interviews.  The only thing I can speculate from all this is that Hitler's daughter Dany and lazy Jon will end up dying and Arya is just passing through Westeros and will end up leaving in the end.

Edited April 27, 2019 by anamika

[Eyes High]

A few have mentioned that mysterious S8 trailer closeup shot of Sansa at Winterfell during the day looking out at something. There was speculation that it was just a cut scene from the first two episodes, or even from 8x03 (assuming the living win), but I looked at the neckline of the outfit in the trailer shot, and it doesn’t match her 8x02/8x03 “armour” outfit or her 8x01 outfit. So this must be an image from 8x04 or later, as the Dany in black with a battle braid promo image seems to be. 

Similarly, I had thought the single shot of Tyrion from the S8 trailer of him looking up at something was from the first two episodes, but it went unused in the first two episodes as well and it also appears to occur during the day. It must be from 8x04 or later as well. Dragonstone?

Tally of known S8 costumes that haven’t yet appeared in the show (assuming no one changes outfits before the big battle):

1. Sansa’s scale dress 

2. Arya’s grey outfit from the literacy campaign

3. Dany’s suede grey coat from the EW cover shoot 

4. Cersei’s red velvet gown

5. Tyrion’s EW cover shoot outfit with Lannister accents (gold clasps)

6. Dany’s dark outfit from one of the S8 promos (worn with her battle braid)

Edited April 27, 2019 by Eyes High

[angelwoody]

What did Bran mean when he and Jon reunited and Jon said “You’re a man now” and Bran said almost or not yet or whatever it was. Was that just a random conversation or did it mean something more?

[SimoneS]

9 hours ago, anamika said:

I need to stop listening to these interviews.  The only thing I can speculate from all this is that Hitler's daughter Dany and lazy Jon will end up dying and Arya is just passing through Westeros and will end up leaving in the end.

Good decision. Honestly, most of the interviews from the showrunners/writers/directors are nonsensical babble to keep the audience engaged. They are rarely say anything interesting or spoilery and on occasion it is obvious that they are just downright lying about the characters. Cogman associating the Targaryens with Hitler is just his way of rationalizing Sansa's bullshit in shocking terms. He really should not have gone there. Unbeknownst to him, this comparison plays into the extreme segment of fandom that has no perspective about the story.

Edited April 27, 2019 by SimoneS

[GraceK]

1 hour ago, anamika said:

https://www.vulture.com/2019/04/game-of-thrones-bryan-cogman-knight-of-the-seven-kingdoms.html

From Bryan Cogman's interview.

So Sansa thinks that Aerys II was Hitler and killed millions of people of an ethnoreligious group because he wanted a Targaryen race? And that Dany is bad because she is Hitler's daughter? And that Jon Snow is in love with and supports the Nazis?

And Sansa apparently thinks that Jon is undeserving of making decisions about the North because he originally did not want to fight.

If I remember right, Jon agreed to fight because Ramsay send him a letter threatening to kill Rickon. But whatever at this point.

So all those storylines about Arya trying to stick onto her identity and Needle and saying 'I am Arya Stark of WF and I am going home',  - all that does still not count on the show?

I need to stop listening to these interviews.  The only thing I can speculate from all this is that Hitler's daughter Dany and lazy Jon will end up dying and Arya is just passing through Westeros and will end up leaving in the end.

Seriously this article is trash. I like  the the part where he says “ because of his “death experience “ “ like being murdered and stabbed in the heart and then brought back from the abyss ain’t no big thing.  Jon doesn’t know what suffering is 🙄 and almost being smothered under a pile of bodies, fighting tooth and nail in the blood and dirt and mud besides your friends and the wildings who are dying for you apparently is shit compared to writing a letter . And Arya apparently singlehandedly avenging the red wedding and stopping her personal vendetta against Cersei to go home to Winterfell apparently doesn’t make her enough of a Stark. And if course the Targaryens are Nazis. Obviously . Even though Dany has done nothing to the North personally, or the Starks,  but Jaime has done more damage to the Starks personally and was literally just on Cersei's side a few months ago, but he’s AOK! Because Brienne trusts him?  But Jon Snows word apparently isn’t good enough when it comes to the Queen who is showing up with armies to defend you guys. 🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️ Yeah ok.  Not to mention that yeah, Aerys sucked but the North also lived quite peacefully until then and By all accounts the realm was pretty happy to be getting Rhaegar as King. 

Edited April 27, 2019 by GraceK

[MarySNJ]

6 hours ago, dirtypop90 said:

One of the biggest lines from this show is "You know nothing Jon Snow." Still they've lured the audience into believe Jon is right and all the people who haven't fully bought into him are wrong. But what if he's wrong about the night king and his goals and what it takes to defeat him. Boy would that cause a whole different kind of mess.

Anything is possible. I don’t think anyone really knows what it takes to defeat the night king. Jon’s making an educated guess based on his experience fighting white walkers and wights north of the wall, and the 3ER is the only one with millennia of memories of the night king trying to kill him. But Bran’s new to the job and maybe doesn’t know everything either. Both of them could both be wrong. I guess we’ll find out Sunday.

[MadameKillerB]

28 minutes ago, angelwoody said:

What did Bran mean when he and Jon reunited and Jon said “You’re a man now” and Bran said almost or not yet or whatever it was. Was that just a random conversation or did it mean something more?

"Almost." I thought Bran was referring to the fact that he's in a wheelchair. Ah, masculinity.

I just watched the HBO Power is Power promo. Wow. Am I alone in thinking this was super cheesy and a bad idea? 

[SimoneS]

7 hours ago, GraceK said:

Seriously this article is trash. I like  the the part where he says “ because of his “death experience “ “ like being murdered and stabbed in the heart and then brought back from the abyss ain’t no big thing.  Jon doesn’t know what suffering is 🙄 and almost being smothered under a pile of bodies, fighting tooth and nail in the blood and dirt and mud besides your friends and the wildings who are dying for you apparently is shit compared to writing a letter . And Arya apparently singlehandedly avenging the red wedding and stopping her personal vendetta against Cersei to go home to Winterfell apparently doesn’t make her enough of a Stark. And if course the Targaryens are Nazis. Obviously . Even though Dany has done nothing to the North personally, or the Starks,  but Jaime has done more damage to the Starks personally and was literally just on Cersei's side a few months ago, but he’s AOK! Because Brienne trusts him?  But Jon Snows word apparently isn’t good enough when it comes to the Queen who is showing up with armies to defend you guys. 🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️ Yeah ok.  Not to mention that yeah, Aerys sucked but the North also lived quite peacefully until then and By all accounts the realm was pretty happy to be getting Rhaegar as King. 

It really is lunacy. Part of me thinks that is like I said, merely nonsensical babble (everything he said about Sansa definitely was), but another part of me wonders if this is how they rationalizing the main characters' motivations, etc. to get them to their intended endings. Think about it if Arya's ending is that she leaves Winterfell and heads off somewhere, then they have to claim that she is no longer a Stark and is passing through. Although frankly, they have failed because I think she very much looks like she belongs at Winterfell. She is more like Ned than her siblings.

Edited April 27, 2019 by SimoneS

[MadameKillerB]

I dunno...I think Arya is smarter than Ned. (BIG giant arya fan here)

[Friendly kitty]

2 hours ago, SimoneS said:

Think about it if Arya's ending is that she leaves Winterfell and heads off somewhere, then they have to claim that she is no longer a Stark and is passing through. Although frankly, they have failed because I think she very much looks like she belongs at Winterfell. She is more like Ned than her siblings.

No, no, John is most like Ned with his unwillingness to sit on the iron throne and the code of honor.
And Arya is a free bird. When everything is finished, she will have nothing to do in Winterfele. She may return there to gain strength, but she cannot live there. She is full of the spirit of wandering ... She needs space, a drive for blood to boil in her veins.

[nikma]

4 hours ago, SimoneS said:

Cogman associating the Targaryens with Hitler i

He associated Mad King to Hitler, which is understandable comparison. In our world Hitler is embodiment of evil and in their world that's Arys. They don't even call him by name.

So, yeah, in modern Germany it would be really hard for Hitler's child or grandchild to be politically successful.

Edited April 27, 2019 by nikma

[ShellsandCheese]

Yeah. Some of these interviews are ridiculous. Rule number one: show don’t tell. A good storyteller wouldn’t have to tell us via interviews which characters are badass or what the characters are thinking - they’d show us.

Good example, Aragon in LOTR. Peter Jackson didn’t have to give a bunch of interviews talking about how great that character was, we saw it on the screen. 

I am still scratching my head when it comes to the show runners over the top praise top of Sansa. From where I’m sitting, she hasn’t done much and if not for Littlefinger’s obsession with  Catelyn Stark the Knights of the Vale wouldn’t have come to the Stark’s aid in the BoTB. I’m still waiting to see her great military strategy when it comes to defeating the AOTD, her plans for reconstruction, rebuilding the seven kingdoms, etc. 

Edited April 27, 2019 by ShellsandCheese

[nikma]

Well, they did show that the North doesn't trust Dany. And in that scene with her and Sansa we saw what I was talking for almost 2 years. Important question will be what will happen after the war. North is not that stupid to not know that they need her againat the WW, but the question is what after that.

As Cogman said, characters never watched GoT.  They don't have perspective  that viewers have. 

The fact that the audience is devided when it comes to Dany means they did great job in creating complex political situation in the North IMO. 

[BadAssRobinArryn]

5 hours ago, SimoneS said:

 Cogman associating the Targaryens with Hitler 

He didn't associate the Targaryens with Hitler, just one member of the Targaryens. And it's a very good and fitting comparison, because whenever in our world someone thinks about an evil politician Hitler is basically the first one that comes into anyone's mind. And whenever someone in their world thinks about an evil politician, Aerys at the very least is among the first. Especially because many of these people still can remember Aerys or lost family members to him. That does not mean that Dany is nazi-like or that Jon collaborates with Nazis and Cogman never said anything like this.

Indeed he said this regarding Dany:

Quote

At the same time, if you’re Dany, this is the family that stole your family’s legacy. You grew up as a child living in constant fear that you were going to be murdered the next day. Then you’re married off to a warlord, and you’ve scraped and suffered and endured, and here you are. You’re going to help these people who destroyed your life and your family’s lives. Where’s the gratitude?

I think he does a very good Job of seeing both sides. 

Edit:

But this is the spoiler and speculation topic and I should have posted this elsewhere, sorry.

Edited April 27, 2019 by BadAssRobinArryn

[Happy Harpy]

4 hours ago, SimoneS said:

Think about it if Arya's ending is that she leaves Winterfell and heads off somewhere, then they have to claim that she is no longer a Stark and is passing through. Although frankly, they have failed because I think she very much looks like she belongs at Winterfell. She is more like Ned than her siblings.

Her costume/hair certainly is all Ned's, and it can't be a coincidence. That said, Arya is more a person of people than a person of place, for me. She had no interest in WF when she thought the Boltons had it, it's a symbol of her family but it's the family that matter to her. Or rather, her "pack", the family she chose.

For example, she can belong with Gendry, forest lass and all, wherever it is they'll be let me dream for two more days before my heart is ripped off thank you.

Usually, what happens onscreen is always much better than the writers' individual interviews, so I guess it's a case of the sum of the parts being better than the parts. It also depends on what the journalists decide to tout (re: the moron that John Bradley had to correct).

46 minutes ago, nikma said:

The fact that the audience is devided when it comes to Dany means they did great job in creating complex political situation in the North IMO. 

I don't think so. As expected, the food issue was a big nothing because the AOTD arrived in a matter of days -no remark about the impending shortage of food in 8x02 whereas everybody was eating LOL. WF will be on fire, no way the stocks survive it. The Northern independence is an issue that imo, will be wiped out with the North ("everybody who isn't here is with them" said Tormund). If the Dragonpit scene is true, there will be a kind of council, which means that no kingdom will be strong enough to survive on its own.

If that "the surviving armies of the seven kingdoms" thing is legit, the whole continent will be more or less annihilated.

Imo, the writers made it look as if it was going to be the Starks vs Daenerys (won't happen) and then Jon vs Daenerys for the Iron Throne (won't happen) so it crystallized strong opinions and emotions, as always when the Starks are concerned and even more in this last season. (BTW, Arya didn't say a word about Daenerys and they didn't interact so far, so I resent that she was lumped with the naysayers and hostile TSTL.) Imo, they also played on some level with ingrained misogyny, powerless victim = good woman, woman with true power = danger.

Because when you look at the facts, all they could find was "Daenerys expected to be Queen" (well, Jon bent the knee and that's how it works) "the Northerners don't trust Daenerys" (let's portray them as a bunch of  pigheaded racists and xenophobes) "Daenerys burned the Tarlys" (couldn't find innocent non-warrior non-traitorous victims) "Daenerys wasn't happy to see the man who murdered her father" (although unlike Sam, it didn't push her to act stupid) "the first thing Daenerys thought about after the reveal was the Iron Throne" (and the first thing Sansa brought up after their heart-to-heart was the Northern independence). In spite of everything, she still listens to others' opinions (not only Jorah) and at the end of the day, she's still in WF and about to lose friends, power, another child maybe, and to risk her life to fight the AOTD.

Edited April 27, 2019 by Happy Harpy

[nikma]

True, they made Dany complex and the audience devided over her, and that's what their job is. Creating complex morally grey sutuations. Dany is complex person, Sansa as well. Tyrion, Jaime, all of them.

Dany is not Luke Skywalker, and that's why she is much better character.

[nikma]

34 minutes ago, BadAssRobinArryn said:

I think he does a very good Job of seeing both sides.

I agree. Cogman did great job last episode. He perfectly balanced all sides, gave them valid points and motivations.

[anamika]

Not sure if this was mentioned here,

Quote

When asked about the significance of their swords, Coster-Waldau paused a bit, thinking over his response before admitting, “I’m starting to get into deep water here.”

“Hopefully, the horrors that were done to the Starks will come to good,” he added. “But I don’t want to talk about deeper meanings when we still have a few episodes to go. Things will be revealed and certain things won’t, but obviously, there’s meaning. Will it have special meaning in the future? Who knows. But it has meaning in the fact that the Stark children, the girls, were given this sword that was made from Ned Stark’s sword to protect them.” 

I don't recall the girls being specifically given Ice, so  maybe this is something that may happen in the future? Or one of Jaime/Brienne dies defending Sansa since Arya can now take care of herself.

After the war is over, I am thinking each house gets back their rightful house sword which is now all in different hands as NCW acknowledges:

Quote

It also wasn’t lost on Coster-Waldau that many of the Valyrian steel swords have been passed to different Houses. While he wouldn’t admit to any potential spoilers, Coster-Waldau did tell us, “The whole point is that we have to do this together if we want to survive, and I think that’s one way of reading it, for sure. It is ‘The Song of Ice and Fire,’ it’s the way it should be.” 

From Huffingtonpost.

[Callista]

Cogman says of Theon and Sansa in the interview: "They both have a very long way to go, but they know that they have each other."  Does this mean that Theon survives in Episode 3 (and perhaps even until the end of the story)?

[Pestilentia]

Quote

Also, if Arya IS crying, then Gendry's probably dead.  *sniff*

Not necessarily- could be she's upset over the compete and utter destruction of Winterfell. Her home is gone.

Quote

Think about it if Arya's ending is that she leaves Winterfell and heads off somewhere, then they have to claim that she is no longer a Stark and is passing through.

Again, Winterfell will be essentially gone. 

There's no reason for her to stay and live among the rubble, at least not during what would be a very prolonged rebuilding effort.

And leaving does not mean never returning. It just means that (as she told Lady Crane) she wants to see what is west of Westeros.

[Friendly kitty]

1 hour ago, Callista said:

Cogman says of Theon and Sansa in the interview: "They both have a very long way to go, but they know that they have each other."  Does this mean that Theon survives in Episode 3 (and perhaps even until the end of the story)?

This will be good. It's too early for him to die in ep. 8.03. I think that the KN will now take Bran as a hostage, not kill him, and Theon himself will somehow be saved. May also get to the as a hostage ...🙄
The scene was too warm for Sansa and Theon. But very small, so their story should not end, it must evolve.

Edited April 27, 2019 by Friendly kitty

[nikma]

I think NK will die in E5. Miguel said E3-5 are like one big story.

It could be that Cersei dies in E6. D&D left that scene for themselves. Or the last episode will be only epilogue. But I think 80 minutes of epilogue will be too much. 

[Moxie Cat]

I think I put two and two together (apologies if someone already figured this out). First, from Friki's Q&A from a few pages back (sorry, it won't let me quote):

Q:Hey friki do you think Dany will become queen?

A:I think there will be a royal council.

Q2:A council that has like a prime minister from each kingdom?

A:Something similar

And from James Hibberd in EW last fall:

"I look around at a meticulously constructed set that I've never seen on the show before. Several actors are performing and I'm stunned. There are characters in the finale that I did not expect. I gradually begin to piece together what has happened in Westeros over the previous five episodes and try not to look like I'm freaking out."

Hibberd saw the council, IMO. New set. I would bet characters like Robin Arryn and Edmure are in this scene, reps for their regions - probably the characters Hibberd did not expect to see. Also Yara and Sansa (maybe in the mystery dress mentioned above). Maybe Gendry, for the Stormlands. Maybe Sam, for the Reach. IDK who I'd put for Dorne (who's left?) or the West, given that it's possible/likely both Lannister brothers will die.

His "piecing together" and "freaking out," I think, refers to his likely conclusion that both Jon and Dany have died (or left), since there is apparently no one on the Iron Throne. And maybe what he saw even confirms that King's Landing no longer exists.

I have been very troubled by the idea that Dany will die while Jon gets to rule. But if they both die - and both their purposes was to bring about democratic change in Westeros (at least partially) - I could get behind that. A number of the actors, especially Emilia, have mentioned that "power" is a central idea in this last season, and the idea of spreading out power rather than concentrating it in one ineffective ruler might be where this ends. (Dany doesn't realize that would truly "break the wheel.")

Also, I keep feeling that Jon is doomed too, that that's part of the resurrection deal - he was allowed to come back, but only to complete a special purpose. It seems unlikely he will simply achieve the Iron Throne, rule, have a happy life, etc.

That said, if the show (and book series) kill off the two main protagonists, that goes way beyond the often-quoted description of the conclusion as "bittersweet." That's more akin to Frodo and Sam both dying at Mount Doom after throwing in the ring. 

[chrisvee]

11 hours ago, MadameKillerB said:

"Almost." I thought Bran was referring to the fact that he's in a wheelchair. Ah, masculinity.

I just watched the HBO Power is Power promo. Wow. Am I alone in thinking this was super cheesy and a bad idea? 

I thought he meant that the 3ER isn’t really a man.

[BadAssRobinArryn]

25 minutes ago, Moxie Cat said:

I have been very troubled by the idea that Dany will die while Jon gets to rule. But if they both die - and both their purposes was to bring about democratic change in Westeros (at least partially) - I could get behind that. A number of the actors, especially Emilia, have mentioned that "power" is a central idea in this last season, and the idea of spreading out power rather than concentrating it in one ineffective ruler might be where this ends. (Dany doesn't realize that would truly "break the wheel.")

Also, I keep feeling that Jon is doomed too, that that's part of the resurrection deal - he was allowed to come back, but only to complete a special purpose. It seems unlikely he will simply achieve the Iron Throne, rule, have a happy life, etc. 

IMO, Dany is much more likely to survive than Jon. I'm still sure she will have a Baby, yet she doesn't even know she's pregnant so far. And there definitely won't be a time jump in the next episode and there probably won't be one either in 8x5. A time jump in 8x4 is possible, if they skip several weeks/months in which the NK makes it through more and more regions of Westeros before arriving in King's Landing. And of course we don't know at all what happens in 8x6, especially if the trial scenes turn out to be a wrong. But it looks more and more likely that Dany will have her baby in the epilogue.

[Eyes High]

4 hours ago, Callista said:

Cogman says of Theon and Sansa in the interview: "They both have a very long way to go, but they know that they have each other."  Does this mean that Theon survives in Episode 3 (and perhaps even until the end of the story)?

I don't know about 8x03, but Alfie missed that big 8x06 Seville scene with all the surviving Team Stark members and various house representatives while Gemma was there. It doesn't mean he dies, necessarily, but it's not looking good.

3 hours ago, nikma said:

Or the last episode will be only epilogue. But I think 80 minutes of epilogue will be too much. 

I said this upthread, but the Mountain's actor's stunt double is credited for 8x05 and 8x06, and there are multiple stunt performers credited for 8x06, too, so 8x06 won't be all epilogue. Still, I would be completely on board with 80 minutes of epilogue. This show is so much better, infinitely better, when they take the foot off the gas and let the characters fucking breathe. If they want to sit around, have meaningful conversations, reflect about what an adventure they've had and talk about their plans for 80 minutes straight, I'm all for it.

46 minutes ago, Moxie Cat said:

"I look around at a meticulously constructed set that I've never seen on the show before. Several actors are performing and I'm stunned. There are characters in the finale that I did not expect. I gradually begin to piece together what has happened in Westeros over the previous five episodes and try not to look like I'm freaking out."

Hibberd saw the council, IMO. New set. I would bet characters like Robin Arryn and Edmure are in this scene, reps for their regions - probably the characters Hibberd did not expect to see. Also Yara and Sansa

Sophie wasn't there when James Hibberd was, though. She was in Toronto filming Heavy during his visit. Whatever that scene is, Sansa isn't part of it...And really, if the Seville scene is a big council scene assembling all the various surviving lords, I doubt there will be another, separate scene with the same bunch accomplishing the same purpose.

43 minutes ago, chrisvee said:

I thought he meant that the 3ER isn’t really a man.

Yes, I agree, the 3ER is closer to a god than a man.

Edited April 27, 2019 by Eyes High

[nikma]

4 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

If they want to sit around, have meaningful conversations, reflect about what an adventure they've had and talk about their plans for 80 minutes straight, I'm all for it.

I'm not. lol. It's just too much. I like meaningful conversations, but while something is happening. I don't want 80 minutes of recap of the show. 

So  if Cersei dies in the last episode, together with Jaime, I think that will put Friki's leak to rest. They will want Cersei and Jaime's deaths be the biggest moment, not overshadowed by some even bigger death. 

When the war is over and if the magic is gone I think there is a chance that Bran will become Brandon Stark once again, and 3ER will be gone forever. 

[Notwisconsin]

6 minutes ago, nikma said:

When the war is over and if the magic is gone I think there is a chance that Bran will become Brandon Stark once again, and 3ER will be gone forever. 

 

It could be that magic will be there in greater force than ever before and Bran would be the 3ER forever, or he might go back in time and become the KN.  Nothing will be certain before tomorrow evening's performance.

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, nikma said:

I'm not. lol. It's just too much. I like meaningful conversations, but while something is happening. I don't want 80 minutes of recap of the show. 

To be fair, there just aren't that many characters left as of the end of 8x02, there will be even fewer at the end of 8x03 (even if only a handful of characters die), there will be even fewer than that at the end of the big KL rumble (8x05, possibly bleeding into 8x06), and there will be even fewer at the end of 8x06 with Cersei, the Mountain, and Tyrion dying in the last episode. It's probably not going to take all that long for the surviving 15 or so characters--Jon, Dany, Sansa, Bran, Arya, Sam, Brienne, Gendry (?), Lord Royce, Edmure, Yara, Robin, Grey Worm, etc.--to sort things out, and several of the surviving characters are going to be pretty minor characters. Nobody wants or needs a five-minute scene where Robin talks about his plans for the Vale.

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So if Cersei dies in the last episode, together with Jaime, I think that will put Friki's leak to rest. They will want Cersei and Jaime's deaths be the biggest moment, not overshadowed by some even bigger death. 

If WatchersOnMyBalls is right about Jaime dying in Brienne's arms, and that actor who's appearing as Lord Hornwood in 8x03 and 8x04 who recently said that he saw three versions of a scene Jaime being shot (dies, injured but survives, survives) is also right, it sounds like Jaime dies in 8x03 or 8x04.

Nikolaj seemed to imply that he had scenes in 8x06 with the way he talked about the final scene he filmed, but maybe they're Arya-as-Jaime scenes, which of course would be played by Nikolaj.

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When the war is over and if the magic is gone I think there is a chance that Bran will become Brandon Stark once again, and 3ER will be gone forever. 

I really like that idea. I suspect the whole emotionless RoboBran thing is a show-only contrivance.

Edited April 27, 2019 by Eyes High

[WindyNights]

1 hour ago, Notwisconsin said:

It could be that magic will be there in greater force than ever before and Bran would be the 3ER forever, or he might go back in time and become the KN.  Nothing will be certain before tomorrow evening's performance.

45 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

 I suspect the whole emotionless RoboBran thing is a show-only contrivance.

Read "A Song for Lya", guys. Bran goes through the exact same arc as Lyanna from that story. Extremely strong telepath meets an alien race and inadvertently commits suicide when said person melds with their hivemind which is a type of god. The Hivemind and the character become one.

Maybe, Bran will be less robotic and more alien but he won't really be Bran anymore is what I'm saying.

[Eyes High]

15 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

Read "A Song for Lya", guys. Bran goes through the exact same arc as Lyanna from that story. Extremely strong telepath meets an alien race and inadvertently commits suicide when said person melds with their hivemind which is a type of god. The Hivemind and the character become one.

I've read "A Song for Lya," actually, and the two situations are not at all comparable. The telepath Lya didn't lose her emotions. In fact, she joined the hivemind and allowed herself to be consumed by the parasite to be able to feel all those emotions more fully and to have access to the joy and love of this eternal, ecstatic, collective communion.

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Maybe, Bran will be less robotic and more alien but he won't really be Bran anymore is what I'm saying.

Lya was still Lya, she was just in the hivemind, and she certainly didn't lose her emotions. In the novella, her sensitivity and empathy are the very things that lead her to join the hivemind, to have access to endless joy and love. It's not about accessing eternal knowledge or giving up her emotions. And of course "A Song for Lya" is playing with other things, like the imperfection of human connection and an exploration of religion: is the parasite a conduit to perfect love and connection, or is the parasite just pumping their victims full of drugs to keep its victims complaisant?

...But anyway, going back to ASOIAF, I never thought that Bran was going to turn into some kind of robot. It helps the writers' purposes to keep him inscrutable (since if he were too helpful, there would be no plot) and uninterested in worldly things like being lord of Winterfell (since that paves the way for Sansa's S7 and S8 storylines). I'd be surprised if it happens in the books, and if Book Bran's endgame is to be something other than RoboBran, then presumably at some point TV Bran has to snap out of it.

I think TV Bran is influenced far more by Dr. Manhattan from The Watchmen (one of the writers even called him Branhattan) than anything from ASOIAF.

Edited April 27, 2019 by Eyes High

[MarySNJ]

3 hours ago, Moxie Cat said:

I think I put two and two together (apologies if someone already figured this out). First, from Friki's Q&A from a few pages back (sorry, it won't let me quote):

Q:Hey friki do you think Dany will become queen?

A:I think there will be a royal council.

Q2:A council that has like a prime minister from each kingdom?

A:Something similar

And from James Hibberd in EW last fall:

"I look around at a meticulously constructed set that I've never seen on the show before. Several actors are performing and I'm stunned. There are characters in the finale that I did not expect. I gradually begin to piece together what has happened in Westeros over the previous five episodes and try not to look like I'm freaking out."

Hibberd saw the council, IMO. New set. I would bet characters like Robin Arryn and Edmure are in this scene, reps for their regions - probably the characters Hibberd did not expect to see. Also Yara and Sansa (maybe in the mystery dress mentioned above). Maybe Gendry, for the Stormlands. Maybe Sam, for the Reach. IDK who I'd put for Dorne (who's left?) or the West, given that it's possible/likely both Lannister brothers will die.

His "piecing together" and "freaking out," I think, refers to his likely conclusion that both Jon and Dany have died (or left), since there is apparently no one on the Iron Throne. And maybe what he saw even confirms that King's Landing no longer exists.

I have been very troubled by the idea that Dany will die while Jon gets to rule. But if they both die - and both their purposes was to bring about democratic change in Westeros (at least partially) - I could get behind that. A number of the actors, especially Emilia, have mentioned that "power" is a central idea in this last season, and the idea of spreading out power rather than concentrating it in one ineffective ruler might be where this ends. (Dany doesn't realize that would truly "break the wheel.")

Also, I keep feeling that Jon is doomed too, that that's part of the resurrection deal - he was allowed to come back, but only to complete a special purpose. It seems unlikely he will simply achieve the Iron Throne, rule, have a happy life, etc.

That said, if the show (and book series) kill off the two main protagonists, that goes way beyond the often-quoted description of the conclusion as "bittersweet." That's more akin to Frodo and Sam both dying at Mount Doom after throwing in the ring. 

I’ve been assuming for a few seasons that the Iron Throne will almost certainly not exist at the end. It was a symbol of conquest and absolute power and domination. I think ‘breaking the wheel’ should start by breaking/melting down the relic of Aegon’s conquest and replacing the absolute monarchy with a grand council of sorts. I don’t know if that means there will be no King of Queen at all, or a figure head with most of the power invested in the council. 

As far as who dies and who lives, I think killing off two of the main protagonists (Jon and Dany) would not be a ‘bittersweet’ ending, but a tragic one. What I hope is that they survive despite sustaining heavy losses and destruction and must dedicate themselves to rebuilding and creating a new form of government from those who still live.  

Edited April 27, 2019 by MarySNJ

[ursula]

Do the small people get to vote? Get lands, property, ownership of their own lives (ability for boys to refuse the draft and for girls to refuse to be "blessed" by some lecherous Lord for starters), the right to education... last names? Because if this Council of Prime Ministers is just an alliance of Kingdoms where each Kingdom is a monarchy, then what has it solved? 

Edited April 27, 2019 by ursula

[connieinnc]

11 hours ago, anamika said:

I don't recall the girls being specifically given Ice, so  maybe this is something that may happen in the future? Or one of Jaime/Brienne dies defending Sansa since Arya can now take care of herself.

Wasn't Brienne given Oathkeeper, which was made from Ice, and swore her sword to protect Arya and Sansa? I don't think NCW meant that Ice was literally given to the Stark girls.

[Happy Harpy]

11 hours ago, nikma said:

True, they made Dany complex and the audience devided over her, and that's what their job is.

The issue isn't Dany being complex. She's a complex character and I'm happy for it. The issue is that her naysayers on the show weren't given (or couldn't be given, imo) a leg to stand on. I wish the conflict the writers created at the beginning of the season was believable since I prefer when I see both sides, but for the reasons I stated in my previous post, one side was plainly TSTL. 

I also wish they stopped comparisons with Hitler altogether, it's ridiculous and way out of proportion. Aerys was imo a Nero - who allegedly burned Rome, so the parallel is clear. OTOH, no one on the show planned and implemented the methodological torture and elimination of millions of human beings -even the NK is different if he's somehow sentient because from his POV, he'd be turning people to his side.

I think that Davos might represent the Stormlands at the council, if there is no king/queen. He has experience of ruling and definitely, the 7K or whatever it will become will need his wisdom.

The question is, if Tyrion dies, who will be Warden of the West? I don't remember if there was anyone for House Lannister at the Dragonpit scene; unless the character in golden armor isn't from the GC. While I can still dream, I'd love it if it were Brienne, and if on top of it she was actually the younger more beautiful queen (because her soul is more beautiful). She'd get Jaime, Jaime's kid and Casterly Rock, everything that Cersei wanted and never had, or had and wasted.

[catrice2]

19 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I would think alive. 

I really hope that they don't kill Missandei. Giving Dany angst is absolutely no reason to do so. Anyway, we'll know soon enough.

I can only begin to imagine the outcry that will result if they kill off one of the only two Black characters. 

I can't imagine most of the audience will care.  I am surprised they have lasted this long.

[Moxie Cat]

1 hour ago, ursula said:

Do the small people get to vote? Get lands, property, ownership of their own lives (ability for boys to refuse the draft and for girls to refuse to be "blessed" by some lecherous Lord for starters), the right to education... last names? Because if this Council of Prime Ministers is just an alliance of Kingdoms where each Kingdom is a monarchy, then what has it solved? 

I doubt that any of that will happen overnight. There won't be a democracy or anything like that. But adding layers of representation as opposed to one single monarch would be progress for Westeros. 

[SeanC]

31 minutes ago, Moxie Cat said:

I doubt that any of that will happen overnight. There won't be a democracy or anything like that. But adding layers of representation as opposed to one single monarch would be progress for Westeros. 

Not intrinsically, no.  Throughout the history of the Targaryen monarchy (as in the history of the real medieval world) the nobility was typically a brake on progress.  Attempts by reformist kings to improve conditions for the peasantry were either thwarted or would have been thwarted had the king lacked dragon power — hence, the contrast between Aegon V’s failed pro-peasant reforms and the successful ones introduced by Jaehaerys I.

[Happy Harpy]

5 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Not intrinsically, no.  Throughout the history of the Targaryen monarchy (as in the history of the real medieval world) the nobility was typically a brake on progress.

It's one of the main staples in the Accursed Kings where the feudal lords constantly demand the "good old customs and laws from Saint Louis" be respected or reinstated, against the modernity-prone and visionary kings. Whenever the lords got what they wanted or were in power vs a weakened monarch it was terrible for the state in general (in France or in England).

So imo, it depends on what the council will be and be about. If it's like a central government, with the equivalent of a prime minister, it can be a progress. If it's just a regional version of the Small Council with no authority above it to keep it in check, it would be a disaster. A state needs a figurehead, even in a democracy. When a boat has no captain, it has no direction either.

Until now, the smallfolk has been a McGuffin, often portrayed (in KL especially) as more fickle than the Northern lords. There were characters who oppressed it, there were characters who defended it, but it never had any agency. Imo, it's too late to change.

[MrsR]

53 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

Until now, the smallfolk has been a McGuffin, often portrayed (in KL especially) as more fickle than the Northern lords.

No.

The Iron Throne is clearly the MacGuffin.

I don't think there will be a Prime Minister but yes definitely some sort of Parliament.

Edited April 27, 2019 by MrsR

[dirtypop90]

Another thing if the war with the night king is not the big expected bad—I wonder if the food issue comes back up. Maybe that’s why everyone is praising Sansa because she’s the only one focused on what happens after the war. I don’t think the lack of food issue will turn out to be trivial. Wasn’t there an issue seasons ago with the people turning against the Cersei because of a food shortage and that’s how Margaery gained favor?

Edited April 27, 2019 by dirtypop90

[shireenbamfatheon]

The way they keep showing tall, slender, red-headed Alys Karstark in the background but never giving her any lines makes me wonder if they're going to do a fake-out at some point where she dies but people believe it's Sansa. 

[dirtypop90]

^ Interesting. But what conflict would dead Sansa cause such that the writers would fake her death? Unless maybe there’s an attempt to take her life by someone working for Cersei.

Edited April 27, 2019 by dirtypop90

[bubble sparkly]

I don’t see how anyone could mix the two up anyway. Alys has orange hair and Sansa has a deeper red. So only someone who  didn’t know Sansa well could possibly think an orange-haired body could be her.

But yes, isn’t that the latest Jonsa theory heh? Poor Alys will die, for some reason people will think it’s Sansa, then Jon will go crazy and realise he’s deeply in love with his pain in the ass sister lol.

[Eyes High]

As well as having orange as opposed to Sansa’s deeper red hair, Alys doesn’t wear her hair the way Sansa does, either, as I noticed in the war council meeting. On the other hand, even though I’m no Jonsa shipper, I can’t rule out a death fakeout. The other Northern lords/ladies apart from Lyanna Mormont have been dispatched (Ned Umber offed, Lord Glover written out), and it would have been easy to do the same for Alys. Everyone who’s at Winterfell for this battle is there for a reason. If Alys is still hanging around, there’s a reason for it.

[bubble sparkly]

Is book Alys the one who married a wildling? It’s possible they are keeping her around to be shown married to a wilding or Dothraki in the epilogue to show how all the different factions have integrated (and that the Northerners no longer run screaming from a brown person). Alys, girl, do yourself a favor and hook up with Qhono. He’s a million times hotter than the ugly dumbasses we’ve seen so far in the North.

Although it would be hilarious if Cersei tasked the GC with kidnapping Sansa and they proudly present her with Alys lol.