S05.E24: Hurt Me, Hurt You

[ElectricBoogaloo]

 SEASON FINALE!

Quote

Holmes and Watson pursue an elusive criminal as a gang war erupts in New York City. While the NYPD works to contain the violence, the two investigate the murder that appears to have ignited the city-wide conflict.

Promo:

[paigow]

Esposito [Castle] returns... This power vacuum is screaming out to Morland. The cabal can restore law and order to save Sherlock.

[CaptainCranky]

Some of the best news I've had this year. My favorite show has been renewed for year six.

[shapeshifter]

I was sorry back when Eli Stone was canceled, but I really don't want to see that show reincarnated into Elementary (with Sherlock having an aneurysm or brain tumor).

[Moxie Cat]

Ugh...just saw this ran over by a minute or so, and naturally I didn't set the news because I thought sports were finally over!!! Can someone briefly recap the very, very end for those of us whose DVRs may have cut off?

(If there is a God: please, please put Elementary on a different night next year!)

[MisterGlass]

9 minutes ago, Moxie Cat said:

Can someone briefly recap the very, very end for those of us whose DVRs may have cut off?

Sherlock sits in a hospital waiting room, the mystery woman appears, and sits next to him.  They talk, and she says the fire was necessary, basically to get him to the hospital, and that the boxes weren't enough.  Sherlock asked why she looks like his mother, and she says she represents the part of him that wants to get better.  The doctor calls Sherlock, and she has disappeared.  At the apartment, Joan sees the chair thrown through the glass doors, but there is no sign of fire damage.  At the hospital, Sherlock lies down and is pulled into a medical scanner.  A screen in the observation room flashes with the image of a brain, and the show cuts to black.

[MisterGlass]

I suspected but knew for sure that she was a hallucination when the recap started with Shinwell hitting Sherlock over the head.  Good call everyone who said she could represent Sherlock's mother.

The gang plot was fine, and relatively straightforward.  I liked that Joan competently took the lead, and I like that she asked the obvious question about whether he was using.  Sherlock's growing frustration over the memory tests was hard to watch, as were his denials and excuses in front of Joan.  I wish he had come out with it, but I don't blame him for being scared.

This was a little bland as a season finale, but the season was a little bland too.  I'm not sure how this will play out next year, but I'm curious to see it.

[thuganomics85]

Credit to everyone who called the Mysterious Woman/Joanna Christie being a hallucination.  It sounds like she is suppose to be Sherlock's mother?  And he think he might have a tumor or something, which is why he was seeing her and being off his game lately?

For a second, I thought they were going to set-up Tyus as future villain for next season, but he ended up getting outsmarted after-all.  A little bit pact, but I do like how it was one minor mistake that ended up doing him in, because usually that is what it takes to bring down the intelligent criminals.  They think they have everything lined up, but they overlook one thing or don't do something properly, and it does them in.  For his sake though, he better get isolation, because no way would he survive both gangs wanting his ass.

The Sherlock/Joan fight was hard to watch.  I do wonder how it will play out, after Joan finds out what is really going on.

Overall, not my favorite season due to my indifference to Shinwell and SBK, but I'm glad it will be back.  At the risk of becoming a cliche, I just find this show to be decent comfort food.  It may not surprise me or change television, but I can always rely on it to be a decent watch, with characters and actors I enjoy.  Glad there will be another season!

[Vermicious Knid]

Looks like he was in a CT scanner? The brief glimpse of his brain didn't show any obvious tumors or brain damage but that doesn't mean anything in TVland.

Glad for the renewal, but also happy this season is over. The Shinwell arc really dragged everything down, and when it wasn't that it was the writers trying to figure out how many different twists and red herrings could be crammed into a single episode.

[Eneya]

I am really underwehelmed by the "brain issue" development, to be honest. The rest WAS cool.

[johntfs]

Sherlock defines himself by his ability to observe and deduce from those observations.  So what is he now if he cannot rely on his observations to be stuff that's actually there?  It's not about "Oh, no, Sherlock has the brain cancers!"  It's who is Sherlock going to be if he can't trust himself to be a detective?

[Writing Wrongs]

I'm glad this SBK crap is done. I haven't enjoyed much of this season at all.

Hey Doctor Watson, not every problem with Sherlock has to be drug related.

[kitmerlot1213]

2 hours ago, Writing Wrongs said:

I'm glad this SBK crap is done. I haven't enjoyed much of this season at all.

Hey Doctor Watson, not every problem with Sherlock has to be drug related.

I agree that the Shinwell story was extremely lackluster because he just didn’t fit in with Sherlock and Joan.  Everyone else in their universe—Alfredo, Ms. Hudson, Mycroft, Kitty, Morland, the regular Irregulars and even Moriarty have a space they fill in Joan and Sherlock’s lives, either in their detective work or everyday life.  Shinwell’s presence just stuck out like a sore thumb.

I did like how angry Sherlock got when Joan accused him of using again.  Just because he’s been distracted does not mean he’s back on drugs and it’s insulting for her to say so and while I do think Joan is worried about Sherlock, that concern is tied up in her anger and guilt over Shinwell’s death and that’s making her rush to judgment regarding Sherlock and his unusual behavior. 

I’m also kind of annoyed that Shinwell’s now considered some sort of thug angel.  He was a gang banger and a murderer--yes I know he was tricked into killing his friend—he very rarely curbed his violent tendencies towards people who opposed him.  Good for him for having a realization in prison that SBK didn’t care about any of the gang members and while I applaud his wanting to destroy the gang, his motivation was pure revenge and for some reason, he decided blindsiding Sherlock and giving him a beat down was a good idea.  I will never for give him for that and I’m appalled that Joan has decided to.

Re:  his mom, I liked the reveal that she represented the part of him that knew he had to get help, and I love the idea of his wanting to lean on his mom with his fears and worries, I can’t help but wish he knew that Watson would be there for him too.  I mean, he does know that, but I wish he would have reached out to her more.  But I think he also knew how consumed she was with the SBK/rival gang investigation.  I can’t wait to see what season six brings.

[paigow]

The Facial Tattoo Crew is now running NYC...Maybe Gregson will lay off them in exchange for peace - like Gotham - but Sherlock interferes due to brain issues...

[MissLucas]

Well, at least we finally finished the Shinwell arc. I'm with Sherlock, dude didn't deserve all the emotional energy Watson invested in him and that final confession doesn't change a thing for me. He lied to her, he manipulated and threatened her and his sole objective was revenge not justice, it was just a lucky coincidence the two converged - as they did for Watson in this episode.

And of course Watson is so wrapped up in her own drama that the best explanation she can come up with for Sherlock's behavior is a relapse - at least she noticed. But she was a surgeon and you'd think she might remember Sherlock having suffered some head injuries a couple of weeks ago. Years of watching medical dramas tells me Mama Holmes is not the result of a brain tumor but of a traumatic brain injury. Maybe I would feel less bored by this development had I not seen variations thereof in plenty of other shows.

[Mrs peel]

Before we all get too angry about Watson's question of drug use, let's remember that he has relapsed since she met him.  I didn't think it was odd or out of line.

I pegged the woman as a hallucination and as his mother, although for a brief time I figured she was real due to the text message.  Odd that he would have gotten a new phone just to send the text.....  And I thought he figured it was dementia or a mental illness, and that he went to the doctor to rule out any other medical issue. 

I also never really understood Watson's obsession with Shinwell, though perhaps it goes back to her medical career and need to save people?

[Gregg247]

I'm so glad the season is over, even though Elementary is my favorite show!  I feel like the writers really got stuck in the weeds with all the gang-related stuff.  Now that the show has been renewed, maybe they can hire some new writers with a fresh perspective.  However, IF they only get writers with an old perspective, I hope they bring back Sherlock's brother and father; they were great.

This was the first episode where I didn't like Joan.  She seemed very severe with Sherlock, PLUS she basically signed that secret gang leader's death warrant by ratting him out to tattoo man.  Most of the time, I have to remind myself that this is the same actress who played the evil woman in "Kill Bill".  Last night, I had no trouble remembering that fact at all!

One other note: Captain Greggson often refers to Joan as "Ms. Watson".  She's a doctor, for crying out loud!  Let's keep that in mind.  'It's DOCTOR Evil, thank you very much.  I didn't spend 6 years in evil medical school to be referred to as Mister!'

[basiltherat]

Joan's not a doctor anymore, so Captain is right in addressing her as "Miss".

I, too, am glad all the gang crud is over with.  This is not the show for it; Elementary is about quirky characters and quirky cases.  You can find gangs on any of the crime procedurals that abound on TV.  Shinwell is not nearly as interesting as Alfredo, Kitty, Ms. Hudson, or even Pam the Snow Plow Driver!

As soon as I saw the woman with FIRE, I knew the spec was correct and that this was Sherlock's mother, because she died in a fire.  I guess Sherlock may have Alzheimer's or some such.

[dargosmydaddy]

Well, I enjoyed that, mostly. Emotional Joan is kind of fun in small doses, and I liked that she ran point on the mystery. While her confrontations with Sherlock were painful to watch, they were also good (and believable) drama. I wonder how guilty she's going to feel about not realizing something was wrong. I half expected the final scene between Sherlock and his mom to be all in his head (the waiting room he was in looked kind of weird) and Joan was going to find him passed out at the brownstone.

I still don't really understand where they're going with his head issue... I don't see it being a tumor or Alzheimer's or whatever. The fact that they showed Shinwell's beat down of Sherlock in the "previously on" (and I think Joan and Sherlock mentioned it during the episode as well) seems to imply it's a result of that, but the timeline/ symptoms seem off... Joan said it was several weeks ago. While Sherlock's symptoms could fit a bad concussion or TBI (forgetfulness, sleepiness, the hallucination), it seems like there should be other symptoms as well (i.e. sensitivity to light, extreme disorientation) that other people would notice. Yes, I know Joan (and the detective who got the text) did notice Sherlock was a little off, but it seems like he should have been functioning even more erratically. And if it was a result of the beating, you'd think Sherlock would be less scared of seeing a doctor or more willing to tell Joan, "Hey, I think Shinwell gave me a concussion, I'm really not feeling well." The way he was acting was that he thought he had some unknown, irreversible problem (which, I guess the brain damage could be irreversible, but still...) rather than something with a known cause.

12 hours ago, johntfs said:

It's who is Sherlock going to be if he can't trust himself to be a detective?

I do agree that this has some nice potential, though.  

[Zahdii]

@basiltherat

Yes!  Bring back Alfredo, Kitty, Ms. Hudson, or even Pam the Snow Plow Driver!.

[johntfs]

I did like Joan talking with Halcon and getting the sister's body by noting that if the cops put the killer in jail, Halcon will be able to get to him way easier.  You never want to make Joan Watson really angry with you.  She will cut a bitch.

[CaptainCranky]

I'm a huge Elementary fan so me saying this is almost sacrilege but this season ending sucked from Joan's zeal for the killer of Shinwell to the weird behavior of Sherlock.

I hope the writers don't carry this over to season 6.

And what's  up with Joan starting to wear pant suits all the time.

[MissLucas]

I noticed the pant suits too - over the season her wardrobe became more masculine and monochrome (and less playful) starting with waistcoats, ties and ended with all those pant suits. The overall look is rather harsh especially when compared to all the flowery dresses Mrs Holmes was wearing - certainly not a coincidence. Not sure I'm comfortable with the underlying gender stereotyping but it was effective.

[paigow]

Watson was not a neurosurgeon...thankfully preventing any realistic chance of her operating on / diagnosing Sherlock.  This title is Lionel Ritchie material...

[tennisgurl]

First of all, can I just say that I am THRILLED that mysterious British lady was a figment of Sherlock's imagination who just popped up last week when his brain started bleeding or something, and is probably a memory of his mother trying to warn him that there is something wrong with him?!?! I was half convinced after last week that maybe I was the one with brain damage and memory lapses. This woman just shows up and we are all supposed to know who she is? Thank God there was method to the madness.

The only thing I'm more happy about is that the SBK/Shinwell is finally over! I agree with the majority here, Elementary just isn't the show to focus on gangster stories all of the time. I know I've complained when the show gets all Spy Thriller on us with Joan and Sherlock getting mixed up in all these international conspiracies, but even those plots fit better, because it usually ties into Sherlock's family issues or something. Shinwell just doesn't fit in with the show. He wasn't quirky or interesting enough for all the screen time he had, nor did he have a personal connection to Sherlock or Joan, and he didn't even really have a major character arc. He might have found some clarity in prison, but he was still a pretty violent guy who seemed more interested in revenge than anything else. And, worse than being violent, the dude was boring! I've liked and been invested in characters who have done worse than Shinwell, but they weren't boring! He was SO boring, and I still have no idea why Joan ended up so invested in the guy and his well being.

I did actually like how the whole thing got wrapped up, and I generally thought this was a good finale. It certainly left me wanting to see where it goes from here, especially as Joan and Sherlock aren't in a great place right now after that nasty fight. Honestly, I think Joan was too harsh on Sherlock. Yeah he still doesn't have warm fuzzy feelings for Shinwell, he tried to help the guy and he was thanked by a bottle to the head and a beating! Its not like Shinwell ever apologized or anything for that, why shouldn't Sherlock still be pissed off? And, considering how well Joan knows Sherlock (she clearly knows something is wrong with him, as she accused him of relapsing) you would think she would figure out that something was wrong with him when he said the funeral slipped his mind. As she said, he remembers everything, him forgetting things VERY is out of character for him. I don't actually blame her for asking if he relapsed, considering he's done it before, I do think she should have followed up to see if anything else was wrong with him. Its just so messed up that she is obsessing so much over Shinwell, a guy she knows was sketchy and beat the shit out of her best friend, instead of realizing that the aforementioned best friend is seriously having problems.

Given the previously on showed Shinwell hitting Sherlock in the head, I think he has a brain injury of some kind, or the hit caused a dormant brain tumor to get dislodged or something, and that will lead to him having serious health problems next season. Of course, it could also be early onset Alzheimer's or some kind of mental break down or anything else, as long as its something that affects his brain and memory. I think this could actually work really well on this show for Sherlock, because he so totally bases everything in his life around his keen intellect and observational skills, and taking that away from him? Making it so that he cant trust his own mind? There is a ton of possible drama potential. Plus you have Joan, who will probably feel awful about not realizing what was wrong earlier, snapping at him about his memory loss, and shell feel even worse if it was the hit from Shinwell that hurt him. He wouldn't have ever even met the guy if she hadn't been so obsessed with Shinwell. Like I said, potential for drama.

[Mama No Life]

I'm assuming this is related to Shinwell's assault.  Otherwise what was the point of the beatdown, because it certainly hasn't been addressed since in any other capacity.

Or maybe it has and I forgot. Sometimes I nod off during this show. :/

Edited May 23, 2017 by Mama No Life

[CaptainTightpants]

It doesn't have to be a tumour/ cancer that is causing Sherlock's troubles. It could very well be that he developed a slow intracranial bleed from the blow to the head a few weeks ago. Once this type of swelling is discovered it is usually not difficult to repair. 

I can totally understand Sherlock's reluctance to address the issue because they usually do have to drill into the head to reduce the pressure. And as it has been mentioned upthread, I don't think he could cope with any altered cognitive capacity. 

[Vermicious Knid]

Joan has also been wearing her hair pulled back in very severe style.

[Driad]

Sometimes a person is injured and the diagnostic tests find an unrelated problem. The problem can be a potentially serious one that would not have been discovered until too late, if the person had not been injured. Maybe Sherlock has a slow intracranial bleed as CaptainTightpants suggested, and the MRI finds a tumor that is curable now but would not have been curable later.

[7-Zark-7]

7 hours ago, basiltherat said:

 

Joan's not a doctor anymore, so Captain is right in addressing her as "Miss".

 

Retired doctors are still doctors. She doesn't need to practice to retain the title. 

13 hours ago, kitmerlot1213 said:

I did like how angry Sherlock got when Joan accused him of using again.  Just because he’s been distracted does not mean he’s back on drugs and it’s insulting for her to say so

Addicts tend to be upset when people accuse them of using again, especially when they are. It was a logical assumption on Joan's part. The odds of a drug addict relapsing have to be higher than the odds of their developing a brain injury. 

What angered me was Joan giving Sherlock a hard time for not attending Shinwell's funeral, as if his vicious attack wasn't a good enough reason for Sherlock to distance himself (even in death, the emotional toll is still there). If she had been the one Shinwell had beaten, would she be so forgiving?

[CaptainTightpants]

I hope that next season gives Joan the opportunity to eat a big platter of crow over her fight with Sherlock. I can understand missing the clues like him sleeping more and being forgetful (although she seems to think that was deliberate and spiteful). 

But if Sherlock doesn't make the funeral for a man who he rightfully describes as an unrepentant murderer, that is his call. Joan was really irrational and emotional about Shinwell, which I just don't understand. 

But now Joan is an aspiring murderer now too. Which is wildly out of character. This is the woman who talked Sherlock out of killing a hitman in previous seasons. Now she is setting up someone to be killed, and over Shinwell?! This whole arc makes no sense to me. 

[tennisgurl]

Has Joan ever even really reacted to Shinwell beating the hell out of Sherlock? I know she knows it happened, but has she ever had any feelings about that? I guess that would mean she might have to admit that her new BFF Shinwell did a really crappy thing, and that just wont stand!

I just have no idea why Joan cares so much about this guy. Its not like he was the only person she saved as a doctor OR as a detective, so what makes him so special? Why is she losing her damn mind over this asshole, when she keeps giving shit to her actual best friend about not supporting the guy who hit him in the head with a bottle, and not following up with him when she can see something is wrong with him. It just makes no sense.

[GaT]

6 hours ago, CaptainCranky said:

I'm a huge Elementary fan so me saying this is almost sacrilege but this season ending sucked from Joan's zeal for the killer of Shinwell to the weird behavior of Sherlock.

 

This was the season finale? I wondered, but nothing describing the episode said it was so I didn't know.  This was not a good season IMO, if the show is on the bubble, a season like this could push it right off the edge. 

[jhlipton]

11 hours ago, Gregg247 said:

PLUS she basically signed that secret gang leader's death warrant by ratting him out to tattoo man. 

1 hour ago, CaptainTightpants said:

But now Joan is an aspiring murderer now too. Which is wildly out of character. This is the woman who talked Sherlock out of killing a hitman in previous seasons. Now she is setting up someone to be killed, and over Shinwell?! This whole arc makes no sense to me. 

Tyus was going have gotten away with running one of the most ruthless gangs in New York, with ordering hits on innocents, including judges and cops, in addition to all the people is drugs cured.  Joan didn't send him to jail just for Shinwell, or even just for Halcon's sister (although he certainly owed it for that) but for all the crimes he did.

Edited May 23, 2017 by jhlipton

[mandigirl]

3 minutes ago, jhlipton said:

Tyus was going have gotten away with running one of the most ruthless gangs in New York

It would have been more realistic for Tyus to have gotten away. I call bullshit on Tyus needing to start a gang war to get a deal. Gang war or not, any D.A. would be insane not to make a deal with Tyus giving up one of the biggest gangs in the City. Years of intel and hundreds of open cases would be closed, not just with the gang, but their suppliers, the cartels-- other big fish. 

Despite what Gregson says, them nailing Tyus on one murder with perjury taints ALL the information he gives them. Maybe they connect some of his information with physical evidence, but for the large majority that relied heavily on his testimony, perjurer=reasonable doubt. 

11 hours ago, Gregg247 said:

she basically signed that secret gang leader's death warrant by ratting him out to tattoo man.

Yeah, I'm with Gregg247 and CaptainTightPants (LOVE that name by the way!#browncoat) and other posters on this one. I was displeased with how Joan was this episode, especially on her handling on Tyus. Remember, the other gang leader killed two kids in his 'retaliation'! I'm sure this is some character arc, but its one that doesn't make much sense. 

[CaptainCranky]

6 hours ago, GaT said:

This was the season finale? I wondered, but nothing describing the episode said it was so I didn't know.  This was not a good season IMO, if the show is on the bubble, a season like this could push it right off the edge. 

USA Today said it was the season finale

[Athena]

12 hours ago, 7-Zark-7 said:

What angered me was Joan giving Sherlock a hard time for not attending Shinwell's funeral, as if his vicious attack wasn't a good enough reason for Sherlock to distance himself (even in death, the emotional toll is still there). If she had been the one Shinwell had beaten, would she be so forgiving?

I agree with most others here that I feel Joan was wrong to be dismissive of Shinwell's beating of Sherlock. I was really irked by her in that scene, but she had a gangster (consultant whatever) tell her everything was her fault. I also think her anger was not about Sherlock attending Shinwell's funeral so much as she said "I asked you to be there!" Clearly Joan has been on edge and wrought up for a couple of episodes now and she wanted Sherlock's support as her work partner and her friend. No matter how stupid the whole situation with Shinwell got at times, Joan cared for him and invested in him.

In any case, I'm glad this storyline is done.

 

10 hours ago, GaT said:

This was the season finale? I wondered, but nothing describing the episode said it was so I didn't know.  This was not a good season IMO, if the show is on the bubble, a season like this could push it right off the edge. 

The show has already been renewed and is coming back midseason. This show has small ratings but it's cheap to produce, syndicated, and makes a lot of money for CBS internationally. Next season will likely to be the last one.

[ZoqFotPik]

Let me get something straight, Tyus said that they checked Shinwell's phone, found 'Doc' on speed dial, and used that number to identify Joan. Is that correct? So Shinwell used Joan's everyday cellphone as his primary contact and didn't even bother to use any kind of alias? And Joan let him do that? I'm kind of Sherlock's side here. Shinwell was an imbecile that got in way over is head.

[iMonrey]

This would have been a crappy way to end the series if it hadn't been renewed.

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I just have no idea why Joan cares so much about this guy. Its not like he was the only person she saved as a doctor OR as a detective, so what makes him so special? Why is she losing her damn mind over this asshole, when she keeps giving shit to her actual best friend about not supporting the guy who hit him in the head with a bottle, and not following up with him when she can see something is wrong with him. It just makes no sense.

THIS. Not only was Shinwell a complete drain on the entire season, but he also had the effect of making Joan unlikable. I get that she's mad Sherlock promised to be there for her and didn't show up, but where does she get off defending the guy after he beat the living crap out of Sherlock? She's just gonna hand wave that away? If someone beat the shit out of my close friend/colleague, they'd be dead to me. Period. 

Quote

This is not the show for it; Elementary is about quirky characters and quirky cases.  You can find gangs on any of the crime procedurals that abound on TV.  Shinwell is not nearly as interesting as Alfredo, Kitty, Ms. Hudson, or even Pam the Snow Plow Driver!

I forgot about Pam! Yeah, those were the days. This whole season was a wash because of the gang thing. 

[jaigurudeva]

On 5/22/2017 at 0:21 AM, Vermicious Knid said:

Looks like he was in a CT scanner? The brief glimpse of his brain didn't show any obvious tumors or brain damage but that doesn't mean anything in TVland.

CT and MRI scans of the brain are multilayered, so that when the neurologist looks through them they can see exactly where on both the X and Y axis of the brain the possible lesion/tumor/aneurysm/stroke is. That looked like just the first layer of the scan, but served as a clarification that Sherlock's there for a neurological problem.

I, too, hope it's from Shinwell's assault on Sherlock, just so Watson might actually feel some of the guilt she should have felt when it first happened.  Instead she just tried to excuse and justify Shinwell's actions, "Oh, well, yeah, he brutally beat you to the ground, but he was just trying to be a good guy and bring down SBK and also he's super sorry about being a murderer so that makes it okay, too," and then get upset with the actual assault victim for not being so forgiving.  And why is Watson blaming herself for Shinwell's death when, truly, only an imbecile would go under as an informant with their cop-consultant buddy in their contacts?

[hak3865]

Can someone tell me the character name of the medical examiner and the actress portraying in this episode?  Looked under cast a few places, and don't see her listed

Edited May 23, 2017 by hak3865

[CaptainCranky]

While I'm not real enamored with the SKB/Shinwell story line I love the new more assertive Joan.

[Neurochick]

On May 22, 2017 at 5:43 PM, johntfs said:

I did like Joan talking with Halcon and getting the sister's body by noting that if the cops put the killer in jail, Halcon will be able to get to him way easier.  You never want to make Joan Watson really angry with you.  She will cut a bitch.

I hated Joan for doing that.  So now SBK isn't running things, but the tattooed gang is?  So what was the point of all that Joan?  Did she have the hots for Shinwell or something?

And what medical school did Joan go to if she couldn't even realize that something was medically wrong with Sherlock?  Like I said, she probably had the hots for Shinwell.

[aemom]

Maybe it's because I've been up to my eyeballs dealing with family members affected with Alzheimers for the last 6 years, but I was thinking of early-onset Alzheimers affecting Sherlock. 

That would be Sherlock's worst nightmare and how they deal with it over the next season would definitely be interesting television.

[johntfs]

2 hours ago, Neurochick said:

I hated Joan for doing that.  So now SBK isn't running things, but the tattooed gang is?  So what was the point of all that Joan?  Did she have the hots for Shinwell or something?

And what medical school did Joan go to if she couldn't even realize that something was medically wrong with Sherlock?  Like I said, she probably had the hots for Shinwell.

It's not about "the hots" for anyone.  Remember that Joan's family comes out of a Chinese culture, even if Joan is thoroughly American.  One well-known ancient Chinese proverb is "If you save someone's life, your are responsible for what they do with that life from the time that you saved it."  Now, sure, as a trauma doctor, Joan probably saved hundreds if not not thousands of lives other than Shinwell's.  However, saving Shinwell was really difficult and marked a real triumph in her career as a doctor.  It seems likely it was the most memorable moment of that career save for the surgery when ended it.

Joan has also been through the trial of craving a new start with redemption for her mistakes and she saw a similar desire in Shinwell.  She even put forth the idea of training him to be a detective, which he rejected.  She felt for Shinwell in his wish to connect with his daughter since she was a daughter who'd lost her connection to her schizophrenic natural father.  When the idea came up for Shinwell to be trained as an informant, she poured a lot of time and energy into that.  She poured a lot of fear for his life and hope for his success into it as well.  Even when she and Sherlock learned of his past as a murderer and especially when Shinwell bear Sherlock, Joan found it hard to let go of someone she'd invested so much in.  Joan has shown in the past that it's hard for her to let go of people she's invested in, even when they show a dark side, as witness the fact that she didn't walk out on Sherlock when he kidnapped and stabbed M and in fact stayed on without pay until he discovered what she was doing, at which point their partnership came together for real.

As far as Mara Tres, AKA the tattooed gang, they were always going to be running the show.  The only question was how many more innocent people were going to become collateral damage on their way their.  Even discounting the ganger and their girls, two children were already dead.

Finally, as shown in this episode, it's probably best to make sure your own doctor isn't going through guilt and rage because otherwise she might miss something medically relevant.

[LisaM]

Quote

Sherlock defines himself by his ability to observe and deduce from those observations.  So what is he now if he cannot rely on his observations to be stuff that's actually there?  It's not about "Oh, no, Sherlock has the brain cancers!"  It's who is Sherlock going to be if he can't trust himself to be a detective?

Reminiscent of the Bones finale.

[shapeshifter]

Did Joan know the details of Shinwell's beating of Sherlock, i.e., that he had a bottle broken on the back of his head?

 

21 hours ago, johntfs said:

. . . Remember that Joan's family comes out of a Chinese culture, even if Joan is thoroughly American.  One well-known ancient Chinese proverb is "If you save someone's life, your are responsible for what they do with that life from the time that you saved it." 

This would have explained Joan's entire season-long arc. Why was it not introduced early, or even at all?

And thanks, @johntfs, for sharing that proverb. It coincidentally applies to a conversation I had with a doctor yesterday.

[johntfs]

3 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Did Joan know the details of Shinwell's beating of Sherlock, i.e., that he had a bottle broken on the back of his head?

I seriously doubt it.  Sherlock's never been much of a sharer about things like that.  He probably said something like "Joan, you need to be careful.  Shinwell gave me a bit of a kicking to show his appreciation for revealing him as a murderer."

3 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

This would have explained Joan's entire season-long arc. Why was it not introduced early, or even at all?

I don't know about that.  It's not like Joan constantly quotes Confucius or consults the I-Ching.  She absorbed a lot of that culture from her mother, but she's also very much a modern American woman.  To me it's more from that idea that she wanted Shinwell to do positive things with his life because saving his life was such a positive for her.  Beyond that, she and Sherlock had invested a lot of time and effort in Shinwell.  Sherlock had committed a crime for him.  They'd found he was a murderer.  He beat Sherlock.  Even so, Joan and Sherlock determined to move on from that because the elimination of SBK would be worth it.  Finally, Shinwell gave Joan his confession, ensuring that no matter how the SBK stuff turned out, justice would be done in the matter of the murder he committed.  And then Bonsi Fulsom and Tyus Wilcox had him stabbed in the back and it all came to nothing.

I can see how Joan would be frustrated and utterly furious at that and how those emotions would blind her to other things, like Sherlock's condition.

3 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

And thanks, @johntfs, for sharing that proverb. It coincidentally applies to a conversation I had with a doctor yesterday.

You're welcome.

[MissLucas]

The fact that we have to analyze Watson's motives with regards to Shinwell and try to come up with something that would explain her behavior just points out how much the writing was a failure. We never got a good reason for Watson's attachment that became strong enough to blind her for whatever else was going on around her.

The only thing that worked in that arc was the underlying theme that the greater good is not a good guideline for ethics. Watson decided to ignore all the shitty things Shinwell did because taking down SBK was well worth it (in itself a questionable reason - as others have pointed out Halcon's gang isn't exactly the Salvation Army either). And in the end she sanctioned a hit with someone who's hardly better than Tyus. Season 6 better show us the ramifications of her actions - not just with regards to Holmes.

[johntfs]

1 hour ago, MissLucas said:

And in the end she sanctioned a hit with someone who's hardly better than Tyus

I don't think that's quite true.  Since he had immunity for everything else, the only way to get Tyus was to pin the murder of Halcon's sister on him.  The only way that could realistically happen was if Halcon gave up her body so the police could find evidence.  So, Joan appealed to Halcon's desire for justice/revenge to get him to give up the body.  I doubt she'll cry if/when Tyus gets shivved in prison, but Joan went to Halcon to get the evidence to convict Tyus in a court of law, not take out a hit on him.

1 hour ago, MissLucas said:

The fact that we have to analyze Watson's motives with regards to Shinwell

I didn't have any trouble figuring out Joan's motives regarding Shinwell.  It was just a matter of thinking like an imperfect human person, which I also am.