S03.E22: Infantino Street

[johntfs]

23 minutes ago, Whodunnit said:

Um, why didn't they keep Snart for one more day and have him use the cold gun on Evil!Barry (Since they have proven how effective it is on original flavor Barry)?

Savitar is a murderous fuck who could well kill Snart and disrupt his contributions to the Legends.  And also the absence of Snart might give some other character with access to cold/ice powers *cough*Caitlin*cough* a reason to part with her silly-ass bitchitude and help out.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

WHY did Barry just stand around talking to Savitar after the SFB didn't work?  "Maybe I should try to get to Iris while Savitar is gloating.... nah, its too much fun to stand here shooting the shit."  *smacks forehead*

I have no idea what results the weapon that Joe had could produce, but he didn't even attempt to shoot it why??  Iris was definitely dead with no action, and no action was taken.

I saw it speculated above - is 'Iris' at the end really HR?  Would make for a great way for him to atone for his self-imposed sins.

Although it was nice to see Lyla again, I love[/sarcasm] how hypocritical she came off as.  "No, you can't have the power source to save Iris, Barry.  Find another way (that probably won't work).  .....  On second thought, what the hell.  Here ya go."

Highlight of the episode was WM and Snart.  Him and GG /Barry have always had great chemistry as frienemies.

[Trini]

NOPE. I'll be over here in Denial. Iris is fine!

Now I'm really glad for that previous lighter, filler episode, because this one started out sad and ended sad. ?

Snart being around helped, but Wentworth - you are killing me with line delivery, man! But seriously, can we have Capt. Cold at the wedding?

Glad we got a Joe/Iris scene; and that we got to see Harry again.

Nahhhh, Cisco. You don't have to go fight Killer Frost *right now* when everyone needs your help with Savitar. She made her choice; she don't wanna be saved.

Edited May 17, 2017 by Trini

[SodaforceMaster]

I would buy a season pass to "Leonard Snart chews the scenery", twice over the flaming puddle of whale dookie that this storyline is. I think I'm out after the season finale.

Also have Kristin Wiig and Anna Dudek just hang out being similar once in awhile, and you've got something watchable.

[KirkB]

17 minutes ago, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

WHY did Barry just stand around talking to Savitar after the SFB didn't work?  "Maybe I should try to get to Iris while Savitar is gloating.... nah, its too much fun to stand here shooting the shit."  *smacks forehead*

Not only that, I can't believe anyone thought this plan would work. Barry knew about the speed bazooka. That means Savitar knew about it too. He had all this time to prepare, it didn't occur to any of the supposed geniuses on the team he might have something up his shiny metal sleeve? I'll admit even I didn't think about the Philosopher's Stone...though, come to think of it, Savitar said it was a piece of focused speed force or something. So how exactly does the speed force allow Julian to give random people from Flashpoint super powers? I mean, Wally okay....

Snart was the best part of the episode. But then again, he usually is.

King Shark was kind of random, but I'll take it. I guess this was as close to a team up between him and Grodd as I'm going to get. 

Edited May 17, 2017 by KirkB

[Trini]

Nitpick before bed: Really?  No reaction from Barry/Cisco/Wally to Iris wearing THE death outfit??

[Ashand11]

First, I wish Barry had told Snart how he would die so he could find a way to fix it but I guess that would change the past. Second, why did joe just stand there staring when he had a gun pointed? Third of all, why did cysco need to go to Caitlyn then? He could have found her after they beat sabotage. 

[Aliasscape]

I kept waiting for Barry to ask one of the others to not tell him when or where but to kill him so that he wouldn't be around in the future to kill Iris. Maybe I missed why that wouldn't work.

 

Also I 100% agree that why in the world was Barry telling them not to tell him stuff but then being the key member to the plan with the speed bakooka.

[PhoneCop]

1 hour ago, netlyon2 said:

- I will be so happy to get the finale over with so I can stop seeing Iris die.  Seriously, show!  I'm guessing we'll see it again at least twice next week (previouslies and flashback to whatever really happened this episode).  Who am I kidding? They'll probably throw it into the introduction to next season, too!  *sigh*

I'm half-expecting the show to put Iris' death in the credits. "Starring Candice Patton!" *GANK*

Nice shout-out to Carmine Infantino, though.

[HunterHunted]

2 hours ago, TDT said:

as for Diana showing up..that depends on if the Wonder Woman movie is a success

2 hours ago, phoenics said:

IF?!?!?

2 hours ago, TDT said:

Been hearing that WW as well as Justice League went through a TON of re-shoots..

 

The rule of thumb is that a film needs to make at least 3 times its budget and marketing before it breaks even. Luckily the budget for Wonder Woman is only about $100 million. I've heard that there have been an extra $20 million in reshoots, but regardless it's low enough that Wonder Woman could be a success even if it sort of flopped. I think they've established that all of the Berlanti are happening in universes that are completely separate from the DC Cinematic Universe. It's possible Diana could show up on any of the show's, but they're just as likely to fuck that up as they have for every other female character. It's also possible that they'll use some of her rogues and maybe another amazon. The Cinematic Universe seems to be content using Batman and Superman's major rogues and the New Gods as antagonists.

[VCRTracking]

I'm going to wait until the finale next week to see how everything pans out but right now I'm more annoyed than sad.

[mj2000]

5 hours ago, Hook75 said:

If Barry can "be" Lyla, HR  can be Iris.

Poor Barry- his mother (so many times), his father and now the love of his life. 

YAY Snart- don't go!!!

WHERE is Julian?

Exactly! Everyone was there but Julian.....or was he? If Barry can be Lyla, why couldnt Julian be Iris?

[ohjoy]

1 hour ago, Trini said:

Snart being around helped, but Wentworth - you are killing me with line delivery, man!

I think I have a problem. I... I'm kind of in love with WM's line delivery as Leonard Snart. When I listen without looking at the screen I hear just how annoying it should sound, but then I watch him perform, and it's completely ridiculous -- but it just works. "Scene-chewing glory" indeed. As such, he was the saving grace of this episode. Come back any all the time, WM.

Also loved seeing Lyla again, even if she did cave for Barry after he didn't bail on Snart.

And I can't believe I'm saying this, but I feel bad H.R. and totally believe he'd sacrifice(d) himself to save Iris. As goofy as he is, I like him with Tracy a lot. But I guess if H.R. goes then Tracy's not sticking around.

[mj2000]

Maybe Im reading too much into all of this or having alot of wishful thinking, but I noticed some things in the past 2 episodes.

1. At the end of the previous episode, Frost's eyes were not staying so frosty.

2. Julian was missing in tonight's episode.

3. Why would Barry be made aware of the plans to trap Savitar in the speedforce knowing that Savitar would know?

4. Barry told Cisco that everyone should make their plans and that he was going to go so that he wouldnt know and therefore Savitar wouldnt know just before the end scenes tonight. Yet...there Barry was holding the device and trying to trap Savitar in the speedforce.

5. Cisco and Killer Frost were doing their battle during Iris's death of all times. Cisco even mentioning it to Barry just as he was about to see Iris killed and Barry telling him to go and that it was ok just seems off.

6. Killer Frost is acting a bit strange at times.

7. Although HR acts silly most of the time, I find it hard to believe that he would be so careless as to slip Iris's whereabouts in front of Barry (actually turning out to be Savitar).

 

I just get the feeling that everything is not what it seems. 

[Spaceman Spiff]

4 hours ago, Trini said:

Nitpick before bed: Really?  No reaction from Barry/Cisco/Wally to Iris wearing THE death outfit??

It's almost like Iris didn't believe Barry could save her and decided to help Savitar along by wearing that outfit and removing the ring.

 

2 hours ago, mj2000 said:

Maybe Im reading too much into all of this or having alot of wishful thinking, but I noticed some things in the past 2 episodes.

1. At the end of the previous episode, Frost's eyes were not staying so frosty.

2. Julian was missing in tonight's episode.

3. Why would Barry be made aware of the plans to trap Savitar in the speedforce knowing that Savitar would know?

4. Barry told Cisco that everyone should make their plans and that he was going to go so that he wouldnt know and therefore Savitar wouldnt know just before the end scenes tonight. Yet...there Barry was holding the device and trying to trap Savitar in the speedforce.

5. Cisco and Killer Frost were doing their battle during Iris's death of all times. Cisco even mentioning it to Barry just as he was about to see Iris killed and Barry telling him to go and that it was ok just seems off.

6. Killer Frost is acting a bit strange at times.

7. Although HR acts silly most of the time, I find it hard to believe that he would be so careless as to slip Iris's whereabouts in front of Barry (actually turning out to be Savitar).

 

I just get the feeling that everything is not what it seems. 

I mentioned in last weeks episode thread that when Barry was vibed to the future, he mentioned to Cisco that things were different and he noticed HR on the roof with the bazooka, yet here we saw Barry trying to use it, and Joe on the roof and no HR (or Julian) in sight.

Maybe Barry will now summon his remnant army, use them, Savitar kills all but one, and this time, they don't shun the remnant...Cold did say Barry's superpower was love, so they show the remnant some love and he doesn't become bitter and doesn't become Savitar breaking the loop...or they use the bazooka on the remnant..I don't know. 

[Hook75]

I like the idea that evil Barry did not kill Iris after all and he is holding her somewhere- but then, who did he killed? earth 2 Iris? We know he was there. 

[AudienceofOne]

Ergh

Do I need to type out the rest?

[AudienceofOne]

Probably. Once again, this show doubles down on 'closed time loop' even though that makes zero sense. Barry knows exactly who Savitar is and how he came to be. The minute he found that out, Savitar would have ceased to be because Barry can oh, I don't know, just not make a time remnant of himself.

This is all so fucking stupid. You know what would have worked? Having the audience and Caitlin know that Savitar was Barry but not have Barry work it out. That way we, the audience, would have spent the back half of this season seeing Barry unknowingly make decision after decision that leads to Savitar. Knowing that if he realised who he was up against then Savitar would instantly cease to exist and that all his aggressive floundering was only making the situation worse: that he was creating the seeds of Iris' destruction with every desperate act.

You know how this season should have ended? With Iris dead and Barry crazy, creating endless time remnants of himself to fight Savitar. And then Barry realising who Savitar is and that he's entirely the product of his own actions. And when the last time remnant limps home, Barry is forced to snap his own neck. The loop is broken, time resets and only Barry is left to live with the memory of what he's capable of becoming.

Instead we get... this. Whatever this mess is supposed to be.

Edited May 17, 2017 by AudienceofOne

[Lady Calypso]

5 hours ago, Aliasscape said:

I kept waiting for Barry to ask one of the others to not tell him when or where but to kill him so that he wouldn't be around in the future to kill Iris. Maybe I missed why that wouldn't work.

Barritar actually answered this a couple of episodes ago: "The more you time travel, the less the rules apply to you." Granted, the reason is kind of bullshit, but that's the canon answer they went with.

4 hours ago, mj2000 said:

5. Cisco and Killer Frost were doing their battle during Iris's death of all times. Cisco even mentioning it to Barry just as he was about to see Iris killed and Barry telling him to go and that it was ok just seems off.

It's interesting because Barritar clearly had Killer Frost fight Cisco as a distraction method. But why distract Cisco? Is it because he's the key to stopping this whole plan?

The death scene is definitely different from the one in the future. Inserted fight scene, coupled with no HR in sight, and Iris not saying anything more than "Barry". She didn't confess her love, which I found odd because I distinctly remember her saying more in the many death scenes of her that we've seen. And there's a reason why Iris was randomly tossed to the side so Barry and Barritar could have their fight. Plus, Joe's reaction seemed....subpar for seeing his daughter die. He seemed stunned but I expected a way bigger reaction. Couple that with Tracy's stunned "I failed" and I'm fairly convinced HR and Iris switched faces (I imagine we MIGHT see HR's face at the beginning of the next episode to trick us momentarily). There is a small window for the to have switched, and both speedsters would have been distracted long enough for them to pull it off. 

Because really, do we really buy that Iris is fully dead here? I'd be very surprised if they keep her dead throughout the finale.

[ACW]

49 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

Barritar actually answered this a couple of episodes ago: "The more you time travel, the less the rules apply to you." Granted, the reason is kind of bullshit, but that's the canon answer they went with.

 

He also correctly pointed out that being retroactively erased hadn't permanently stopped Eobard Thawne.

[ElleMo]

11 hours ago, Hook75 said:

WHERE is Julian?

Julian does seem to be the one with the most common sense on the show and it is odd he wasn't featured.  I think that he ind H.R. are the wild cards that will win this for everyone. Not only wasn't he there, but his absence wasn't explained.  We was doing something that he didn't want Barry to know about.  Switching  with Iris perhaps?

I agree that wasn't Iris at the end.  She didn't tell Barry she loved him. It was either Julian or HR.

My theory on how maybe be incorrect, but I would be shocked if HR and Julian weren't up to something w/o other's knowledge.

Edited May 17, 2017 by ElleMo

[KirkB]

I will be pleasantly surprised if it turns out someone on this team was using their brain and had an actual plan, besides the stupid speed force bazooka, which Barry did not know about and thus Savitar was unaware of. The revelation of the appearance copying technology this episodes gives a pretty good indication of how it might go down, but someone dying in Iris' place seems a little extreme. Especially Julian. He might, and I stress might, be willing to sacrifice himself to save Caitlin but Iris? I'm not so sure. HR, maybe, but only because he accidentally gave her up to evilBarry.

Edited May 17, 2017 by KirkB

[legaleagle53]

8 hours ago, Aliasscape said:

I kept waiting for Barry to ask one of the others to not tell him when or where but to kill him so that he wouldn't be around in the future to kill Iris. Maybe I missed why that wouldn't work.

Savitar already explained in the previous episode why killing Barry wouldn't work when Barry proposed killing himself in order to prevent Savitar from existing, and Savitar was right.  Eddie's suicide didn't prevent Eobard from continuing to exist as a time remnant, after all.

[Katsullivan]

When Barry pulled out the bazooka, who else half-expected him to shout at Savitar: "Say hello to my LITTLE FRIEND!"

Edited May 17, 2017 by Katsullivan

[johntfs]

Remember "Monster?"  Perhaps Julian and H.R. created a mobile ballistic gel dummy and used the holographic technology from that episode to make an "Iris" that would feel real when Savitar stabbed "her."  Julian isn't shown because he's working the holographic controls.  Maybe Cisco improved the stuff so it doesn't cause shorts and electrical sparks when used.

[cambridgeguy]

1 hour ago, KirkB said:

I will be pleasantly surprised if it turns out someone on this team was using their brain and had an actual plan, besides the stupid speed force bazooka, which Barry did not know about and thus Savitar was unaware of. The revelation of the appearance copying technology this episodes gives a pretty good indication of how it might go down, but someone dying in Iris' place seems a little extreme. Especially Julian. He might, and I stress might, be willing to sacrifice himself to save Caitlin but Iris? I'm not so sure. HR, maybe, but only because he accidentally gave her up to evilBarry.

That would fit the Snart's four rules about plans so hopefully someone was paying attention.

That being said, if Barry's willing to break the rules and grab Snart then why not pluck Ronnie from the timeline?  If anyone could talk Caitlin down it would be him, with the potential added bonus of Firestorm powers.

[Grace19]

What an emotional episode, if I didn't believe Iris will be back, I would have been crying my eyes out. The parts that really got to me was Joe and Iris scene and iris saying her vows while being killed. Great acting all around, I just wish Wally and Iris got a scene together too.

Captain cold was entertaining, Barry and iris better don't sit him at the singles table at the wedding.

I always had a feeling that they were going to kill Iris, but I know she will be back. The question is how do they bring her back?

I don't think HR switched with iris, there was no way he could get to her on time to do that. I am okay with that, in fact I don't what another person other than Barry to sacrifice themselves for iris, Eddie already did that. It's time for Barry to do this on his own, I believe that for his journey through out this season to make sense. Barry have to figure out how to defeat savitar on his own.

I'm ready for Barry to step up and be a hero we can believe in.

[VCRTracking]

When I first heard the theory online about HR using the "face switching" to switch place with Iris it does make sense to me. They introduce this incredible convenient technology right before the finale and then give an excuse to somehow make it HR's fault Savitar found Iris, giving HR enormous guilt. The kicker was him falling in love with Tracy after just a few days! When I thought about that last part I realized "Yep, he's dead."

[GHScorpiosRule]

If Barry sacrices himself and is killed, then there is no show.

It really is too bad that Team Flash don't know that the Black Flash/top Time Wraith finally got Eobard Remnant.

But this show often forgets what they've written and shown before, so I'm not surprised the wraiths haven't returned to destroy the remnant on this show. If they did, then Kreisberg wouldn't be able to drag this shitfest of a story out.?

2 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

When I first heard the theory online about HR using the "face switching" to switch place with Iris it does make sense to me. They introduce this incredible convenient technology right before the finale and then give an excuse to somehow make it HR's fault Savitar found Iris, giving HR enormous guilt. The kicker was him falling in love with Tracy after just a few days! When I thought about that last part I realized "Yep, he's dead."

The face switching technology was introduced earlier in the season by HR. When he showed up and was told he couldn't go out in public, he used it to go out and buy his coffee. And then revealed how he was able to do it. We never saw or heard about that technology again until last night.

[Grace19]

I think that the conversation between savitar and killer frost is important. I don't think savitar actually have it in him to kill Iris. I believe that he has her stashed somewhere and possibly killed a time remnant of iris or someone else disguised as Iris. It will have the same effect on Barry since he is unawares of this and as a result, savitar gets to keep iris and also ensure that he is created as a result of Barry's grief.

I hope that iris still has a role to play here, there's still a scene between iris and savitar that we are yet to see. Who knows, maybe she is the one that convinced savitar not to kill her, or she will discover a weakness in savitar that she can possibly pass along to Barry that will help him defeat savitar. I just want her to play a part in saving her own life, the writers owe us that much. They've made her a bystander in her own storyline.

8 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

If Barry sacrices himself and is killed, then there is no show.

 

Barry scarifying himself doesn't necessarily mean death, he could be stuck in the speed force till next season.

[GHScorpiosRule]

So far, only the speedsters have remnants of themselves, not the humans. So I doubt that the Iris that was killed was a time remnant.

But who knows? This show has proven over and over again that they didn't care if a story makes sense or not. They're in it for the draaaama and what they think is good television-meaning angst, doom and gloom for a character that is basically a happy character and has never needed the former to tell his story of being a hero.

[Katsullivan]

10 minutes ago, Grace19 said:

I think that the conversation between savitar and killer frost is important. I don't think savitar actually have it in him to kill Iris.

To the Snowbarry shippers, maybe. That conversation added absolutely zero to the plot and it told us nothing about either character's motivations or personalities. 

 

10 minutes ago, Grace19 said:

I just want her to play a part in saving her own life, the writers owe us that much. They've made her a bystander in her own storyline.

The fact that Iris has zero reaction to a version of Barry Allen being her murderer should tell you not to have any hopes of agency for her character.

[Rachel RSL]

25 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

They introduce this incredible convenient technology right before the finale and then give an excuse to somehow make it HR's fault Savitar found Iris, giving HR enormous guilt.

The face-changing technology has been around all season. H.R. started using it early in the season when he was reminded that he has the face of a known criminal on this Earth.

[sarthaz]

Foreshadowing is everything:

1) The moment Iris records that video you know she's going to die (or appear to die), because we need to see that video at the end for feels.

2) The moment Harry gets this big scene with Tracy, you know he's in danger; but then he makes this absurd "mistake" and needs a redemption arc? Dead man walking.

Good foreshadowing isn't so transparently telegraphed, but this isn't a particularly well-written show.  Evidence of this:

1) Lyla not giving Team Flash the MacGuffin right away.  Come on.

2) Barry not just telling Lyla, "Look, I'm'ma steal this thing and cost you millions in damage if you don't just give it to me.  And if that doesn't work, I'll go back in time and get it, so seriously, just give me the MacGuffin that you should have already given me if we didn't need to waste half an episode with Snart."

3) Let's go back in time and get Snart to help steal the MacGuffin, but let's not keep him around a few more hours to help stop Savitar?  He's only demonstrated repeated unrealistic abilities to defy logic and best Speedsters.  Can't imagine how he'd be useful here.

 

To answer a previous poster, the reason Joe is on the roof without firing the gun is to show that HR isn't the one on the roof with the gun anymore, because ... wait for it ... foreshadowing!

[MadyGirl1987]

Just rewatched the end and I have to say that, while there will surely be some wibbly wobbly timey wimey stuff that brings her back, for now, Iris is really dead.

With the theory that Team Flash pulled a switch, they would not have had time to do it undetected, especially with two speedsters in the area. I also doubt they would be okay with sacrificing somebody like that, even if the person was okay with it. Iris seemed to accept what might happen and I don't see her letting somebody take her place without an argument that would have taken longer then possible with the time allotted for such a switch.

With the theory that Savitar used someone else, my main problem is that anyone else then Iris, except maybe Caitlin but she is fighting Cisco, would be all "What's going on? Flash help me!"

[Katsullivan]

28 minutes ago, Rachel RSL said:

The face-changing technology has been around all season. H.R. started using it early in the season when he was reminded that he has the face of a known criminal on this Earth.

The point is that it was brought up again because it was about to become relevant. 

5 minutes ago, MadyGirl1987 said:

With the theory that Team Flash pulled a switch, they would not have had time to do it undetected, especially with two speedsters in the area. I also doubt they would be okay with sacrificing somebody like that, even if the person was okay with it. Iris seemed to accept what might happen and I don't see her letting somebody take her place without an argument that would have taken longer then possible with the time allotted for such a switch.

Most likely HR was working with Savitar. He had a piece of Savitar with him and he knew, from Jessie Quick, how to use it to summon Savitar. He made a deal to die in place of Iris and Savitar accepted it, because the only thing better than killing Iris and wrecking Barry would be letting Barry get wrecked, thinking that Iris was killed and keeping her for himself.

What Iris thought about all this wouldn't have been any of Savitar's concern. 

[Katsullivan]

double post

Edited May 17, 2017 by Katsullivan

[mrspidey]

19 hours ago, Jediknight said:

They were able to distract Savitar long enough for HR to swoop in and replace Iris, right?

Totally. There's a reason they had Barry use the transmogrifier to impersonate a female. They needed to set up that it can change your apparent sex as well.

Also, here's an idea on how to stop Savitar from ever existing (and killing Iris/HR). Don't create time remnants, no matter what happens. 

Edited May 17, 2017 by mrspidey

[KirkB]

Why would Savitar agree to kill HR instead of Iris? His killing Iris in front of...himself, was the whole reason he existed. Why pretend to do that?

[Princess Lucky]

21 hours ago, Jediknight said:

They were able to distract Savitar long enough for HR to swoop in and replace Iris, right?

Agreed.

15 hours ago, mj2000 said:

7. Although HR acts silly most of the time, I find it hard to believe that he would be so careless as to slip Iris's whereabouts in front of Barry (actually turning out to be Savitar).

It's definitely possible that HR is just that dumb (or distracted), and he then (presumably) sacrificed himself out of guilt, but what if that was part of the plan? To tell Barry/Savitar where "Iris" was, so HR could take her place, and Savitar could still think he has "her"? I like the idea that HR made a deal with Savitar, but is it realistic (wait forget I asked, haha). Why wouldn't Savitar just kill Iris? Is it possible the Iris/Barritar face touching does happen in the finale? And he wanted to still be created (by way of Barry "witnessing" her death) while also keeping Iris alive and all to himself?

I agree with all those who are asking about Julian. He is my favorite, so I did miss him, but his absence was glaring just plot-wise. Where is he, while Killer Frost is doing all this? Why would he leave, and why would no one mention him? He's either also part of the masterplan, or the writers couldn't come up with a good excuse and he'll show up next week like he never left.

6 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

The face switching technology was introduced earlier in the season by HR. When he showed up and was told he couldn't go out in public, he used it to go out and buy his coffee. And then revealed how he was able to do it. We never saw or heard about that technology again until last night.

That was so clunky. So many people have been wondering about that, ever since it was introduced, and there have been previous opportunities to organically mention that technology before (even recently, when Tracy was introduced. Who does she see when she looks at HR?), but the show failed to do that. Casually mentioning the fact face-switching is still a thing in this story, that would have worked out great. Bringing it back in the penultimate episode? Way too obvious. Poor planning by the writers (then again, what isn't?).

If HR is indeed dead, I will not miss him. Especially because we got Harry. It's so striking, how I can absolutely adore one of them and be so annoyed by the other. I almost want to say "good riddance" but I respect his sacrifice.

Also, Candice Patton was fantastic. I wish the writing all season matched her talent.

[KirkB]

The problem I have with this theory is the face changing technology itself. While I could possibly accept (the 6 foot) HR using it to make himself look like (the 5'6" or so) Iris and letting Savitar kill him while the real Iris is safe and sound, tucked away in Savitar's love shack, once they get to her body won't they be able to tell its HR? I mean, the tech only disguises how he looks, he should feel the same when Barry is holding him. And the tech itself should be a giveaway. One way or another it would only be a temporary trick.

[MissLucas]

I must reconfigure my emotional settings because all I was interested in was if they somehow manage to keep Captain Snart around (or even better give him a heads up to what was going to happen so that he could prevent it and we would get him back on LOT) - once Barry brought him back to Siberia I lost all interest because it was clear things would unfold as predicted.

[tennisgurl]

So...was Julian off watching Britain's Got Talent throughout the whole episode or something? Not even a throw away line to where he went off to at this huge moment that everyone's been freaking out about since you guys met?

So, when I get over the fact that Iris has been stuffed so hard into the refrigerator that the condiments are falling out, I think I will be able to acknowledge that her death was extremely heartbreaking. Playing that super sad song and her video she made for Barry doing their vows while she gets stabbed was extremely affecting. Granted, I'm not super sad because I'm totally convinced that Iris isn't really dead for real (because that would be the worst idea since the final episode of How I Met Your Mother), but it was still hard to watch. No matter how much bullshit they pile on them, I love WestAllen and I adore Iris and Candice, even when she's forced to be a supporting character in her own death. I will always root for them to be together and happy, no matter what.

Damn it Joe, give your daughter a fucking gun! I'm sorry for the swearing, but this is a pretty serious situation! Don't just have her stand their helplessly, give her something to defend herself! Maybe it wouldn't do much, but it might do something. At least let her go down fighting. If Wally is allowed to just run up to Savitar and start punching him like a moron, at least give Iris a handgun or some brass knuckles!

I'm pretty sure that the person stabbed was actually HR, as others have said. When he told Cisco goodbye when he went off to fight Killer Frost, his goodbye seemed rather bittersweet. I can see him trying to sacrifice himself for Iris, considering his massive inferiority complex, and guilt over his mistake this episode.

Oh my God it was so GREAT to see Snart again! And this version, not the younger, more asshole version we saw in the last episode of LoT. This is the guy who will go on to die as a hero and developed into being a better person. For a second, I thought Barry was going to tell Snart that he was going to die when he dropped him off, he had a rather sad expression on his face when he said goodbye. I love their weird kind of friendship, and Wentworth and Grant have great chemistry and their banter was a welcome relief from all the drama. And it was sweet when Barry saved him, and when Snart told him he liked him better as a hero.  Although, even that was bittersweet, knowing what will happen to Snart, and that Barry probably wont see him again. Damn it, when did this whole franchise get so freaking depressing?

"If Cisco saves my life, tell him...I`ll put in a good word with my sister".

"I like Shark Week, I'm not a marine biologist".

Seriously, can we get him back please? We need him and his never ending sass!

[ParadoxLost]

1 hour ago, doram said:

It's fictional tech. It works anyway the writers want it to work. lol.

A speculation on tumblr is that they'll make a mistake and have the "Fake" Iris still wear her engagement ring and that's how they'll know that Iris is still alive.  

I'm pretty sure that in the episode where Iris was showing off her engagement ring and Cisco vibed Wally to see her death that they made a big point of doing a close up on dead "Iris's" hand showing no wedding ring.

So I tend to believe that the "Iris" that died isn't Iris.

[ottoDbusdriver]

10 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

So far, only the speedsters have remnants of themselves, not the humans. So I doubt that the Iris that was killed was a time remnant.

But who knows? This show has proven over and over again that they didn't care if a story makes sense or not. They're in it for the draaaama and what they think is good television-meaning angst, doom and gloom for a character that is basically a happy character and has never needed the former to tell his story of being a hero.

 

9 hours ago, MadyGirl1987 said:

Just rewatched the end and I have to say that, while there will surely be some wibbly wobbly timey wimey stuff that brings her back, for now, Iris is really dead.

With the theory that Team Flash pulled a switch, they would not have had time to do it undetected, especially with two speedsters in the area. I also doubt they would be okay with sacrificing somebody like that, even if the person was okay with it. Iris seemed to accept what might happen and I don't see her letting somebody take her place without an argument that would have taken longer then possible with the time allotted for such a switch.

With the theory that Savitar used someone else, my main problem is that anyone else then Iris, except maybe Caitlin but she is fighting Cisco, would be all "What's going on? Flash help me!"

There is always that age-old catch-all excuse for how Iris survived and explains everything about how they defeated Savitar -- A wizard did it !! (or in the case of the TV show 'Revolution' -- Nanites !!!)

[MadyGirl1987]

9 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

Most likely HR was working with Savitar. He had a piece of Savitar with him and he knew, from Jessie Quick, how to use it to summon Savitar. He made a deal to die in place of Iris and Savitar accepted it, because the only thing better than killing Iris and wrecking Barry would be letting Barry get wrecked, thinking that Iris was killed and keeping her for himself.

What Iris thought about all this wouldn't have been any of Savitar's concern. 

I honestly didn't think about that possibility. That definitely could have happened. I do wonder if HR would be able to deal with Savitar, however... I could just as easily see Savitar killing him before he got a word in edgewise...

[RobertDeSneero]

5 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

So...was Julian off watching Britain's Got Talent throughout the whole episode or something?

I would guess that he is off-camera somewhere, ready to stop Killer Frost from killing Cisco.

The standard superhero story would have Julian willing to sacrifice himself, providing the emotional push for Caitlyn to gain control and push back the Killer Frost personality.  Then, she gives them information needed to find Savitar and/or take him down.

5 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Seriously, can we get him back please? We need him and his never ending sass!

Just need a reason for Barry to go back in time and create Flashpoint times ten.

[Mellowyellow]

CP broke my heart in that video to Barry.

I was sitting there rolling my eyes at the plot, grumbling to hubby about how stupid everything is and then CP and her video had me bawling. 

I wish they'd let her and Barritar have a proper scene/conversation. It could have been all kinds of awesome. 

I know she's not going to be dead and all will be fine but I feel cheated there was no Iris and Evil Barry scene. 

[benteen]

BTW, yes on something earlier....Barry just stands there gawking for a LONG period of time after the cannon fails and doesn't do anything to get Iris out of there.  Iris doesn't help matters by not even attempt to get away, especially when Savitar was being blasted.  It's just a stupid moment.  It reminds me of last season when Barry had Zoom tied up and instead of knocking him out, he instead spends his time bragging and trying to spiking the football in his face.

[waving feather]

So, I am assuming, HR made the switcheroo while Barry was distracted with Savitar. That's why HR is not seen in the scene like he was in the future they saw earlier. Else, this whole thing would be so dumb with Iris literally lying there instead of running to escape.

Another thing that bugged me was how Barry just stood around while trying to shoot Savitar with the speed cannon. He is a speedster, himself. Use your speed, geez.

The whole thing with Snart was just a waste of time and I loved Snart on Legends Of Tomorrow.

Edited May 18, 2017 by waving feather