S03.E20: I Know Who You Are

[KirkB]

Maybe Savitar threw the last time remnant into the speed force so it would go crazy and turn into, well, him?

[phoenics]

Oy.  My headache is back.

[phoenics]

Okay - so going with the time remnant theory - does Barry remember what he remembered in the flashbacks tonight leading up to the reveal?

He remembered Emo!Future!Barry saying that he'd create a ton of time remnants but Savitar would destroy them all mostly (I knew that line had to mean something)... but does Barry actually remember that?

Meaning - will Barry be smart enough NOT to create any time remnants to prevent Savitar from being born?

Or did they drop in that line into the flashbacks just for the audience?

I was thinking before this episode that I needed to understand the science of the time remnant better - because I really still don't fully understand it.  I had a theory that it could be Barry or a time remnant of Barry, but since I didn't really get the whole "science" of how the remnants work, eh.

Aren't they supposed to just disappear after a time?  Are they absorbed back into the speed force?  And how did Eboard's stay around?  Do they get a sort of god complex?  Are they mentally unstable?  How much is a time remnant actually like the real person who created it?

Does anyone understand how time remnants work?

Edited May 3, 2017 by phoenics

[KirkB]

1 minute ago, phoenics said:

Does anyone understand how time remnants work?

No. Not us and not the writers. Remnants do whatever the show needs them to do in any given episode.

[notagain]

What are the odds that this whole season, timeline, paradox is the ultimate mind fuck created by the Speedforce?  It was created for Barry to face the physical embodiment of his grief, a version of himself that is so twisted by it, he kills the love of his life. 

[phoenics]

2 minutes ago, notagain said:

What are the odds that this whole season, timeline, paradox is the ultimate mind fuck created by the Speedforce?  It was created for Barry to face the physical embodiment of his grief, a version of himself that is so twisted by it, he kills the love of his life. 

Ouch - I felt that, lol.

But I am not sure the show can survive a "Dallased" season.

Edited May 3, 2017 by phoenics

[notagain]

9 minutes ago, phoenics said:

Okay - so going with the time remnant theory - does Barry remember what he remembered in the flashbacks tonight leading up to the reveal?

He remembered Emo!Future!Barry saying that he'd create a ton of time remnants but Savitar would destroy them all mostly (I knew that line had to mean something)... but does Barry actually remember that?

Meaning - will Barry be smart enough NOT to create any time remnants to prevent Savitar from being born?

Or did they drop in that line into the flashbacks just for the audience?

I was thinking before this episode that I needed to understand the science of the time remnant better - because I really still don't fully understand it.  I had a theory that it could be Barry or a time remnant of Barry, but since I didn't really get the whole "science" of how the remnants work, eh.

Aren't they supposed to just disappear after a time?  Are they absorbed back into the speed force?  And how did Eboard's stay around?  Do they get a sort of god complex?  Are they mentally unstable?  How much is a time remnant actually like the real person who created it?

Does anyone understand how time remnants work?

I just read the wikia page, and I'm even more confused.

[Trini]

15 minutes ago, phoenics said:

Almost like a Bizarro verson of Barry - just horrifically evil because all it is is power - no love in sight.

'There's no Flash without Iris West.'

But another couple is supposedly endgame?   Like.....

------

This Evil Barry has to be some type of paradox/time loop situation -- they just need to find the point of origin... if that's even possible in a time loop....

[Rachel RSL]

1 hour ago, Cthulhudrew said:

D'OH! I completely forgot about that! 

(i'll just sheepishly slink away now....)'

(but seriously, thank you for the reminder!)

Don't feel too bad, I actually forgot too until just now. Props to Tom Cavanagh for playing all the different HRs so good, btw. 

6 minutes ago, phoenics said:

Meaning - will Barry be smart enough NOT to create any time remnants to prevent Savitar from being born?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

7 minutes ago, phoenics said:

And how did Eboard's stay around?   

 Wasn't there some bs about him having to stay moving at all times or else the time wraith would get him or something? Or am I getting my CW shows all jumbled?

45 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

Yeah, Wally, you have time to go visit your girlfriend on Earth-3 when Iris' Doomday is coming up and Savitar/Killer Frost are on the loose. I know the actor seemed unavailable for whatever reason until his one scene, but it's just inconvenient timing on his end. 

Honestly, I didn't even notice he was missing. Poor underused Wally.

[TwistedandBored]

OMG! Barry Allen is Savitar! 

[xaxat]

1 hour ago, Lady Calypso said:

I don't really care for Cecile, so her and Joe's plot was not particularly intriguing for me. I honestly thought at one point that SHE'D be revealed as Savitar and then I'd have to throw my laptop at my TV.

Now I have this image of Cecile's tiny frame trying to climb into that big suit.

[TwistedandBored]

Let me get this straight. Future Harvey Dent look alike Barry Allen is trying to kill off the love of his life so he can become evil because he lost her? Like that doesn't even make sense? 

[benteen]

What a shock that Barry is the villain.... 

Not a surprise with his actions over the past three seasons but found the reveal not that exciting of a reveal.  Barry always screws up everything.

I can't believe Joe set aside his love affair with lying for Cecile.  I laughed my ass off when Barry told Joe "If you love her, tell her the truth.  That's what you would say."  Yeah, right!  The same guy who had Barry lie to Iris for years...

Nice to see Anne Dudek turn up on this show.

I do like Caitlin as Killer Frost even though I think her powers turning her evil is stupid.  Love the new costume and her using the ice slide like Ant-Man.

I have to agree with IGN that the writers are way too obsessed with getting every single character into a romantic relationship.  From the IGN review by Jesse Schedeen...

Quote

Both of these subplots serve as reminders that The Flash is too overzealous about adding romantic drama into the mix. The writers don’t seem happy unless every single main character is wrapped up in some sort of romantic intrigue. The Joe/Cecile romance has added little to the bigger picture this season. Maybe there’s potential to be mined from the blossoming H.R./Tracy romance, but that’s not really a pressing concern right now. The show needs to reassess its priorities a bit.

[ruby24]

10 minutes ago, benteen said:

 

I have to agree with IGN that the writers are way too obsessed with getting every single character into a romantic relationship.  From the IGN review by Jesse Schedeen...

This is somewhat related to that, and it may only be me, but here's my issue with romantic storylines. I don't mind them in principle, but this show is completely sexless. I mean, there was that one (I guess obligatory) scene this entire season with Barry and Iris in bed together for two minutes, but aside from that no one is allowed to get any. No Julian/Caitlin, no Cisco/Gypsy, Wally/Jesse- I mean, these romantic entanglements don't even feel very serious because no one is allowed to express any real passion. Even Barry and Iris are way too dry most of the time.

I sort of want romances to be actual adult relationships if they're gonna spend time on them.

Edited May 3, 2017 by ruby24

[VCRTracking]

As someone who grew up watching Spider-Man and his Amazing Friends which featured Iceman my reaction to Killer Frost making and riding around the city in an actual ice slide was:

I admit I did not guess who Savitar was. I mean future Barry was on a list of suspects but not at the top. It's an old comics thing having the villain be a future version of the hero who turned evil(Adam Warlock and Magus).

[BkWurm1]

Barry as Savitar isn't a shock and yet, I think this show has broke me.  I can't explain this plot in any way that makes sense and keeps Barry from being at his core, an absolute ass. 

Hey, at least it turns out that he really IS the fastest man alive.  

Oh and I liked  Tracy a lot.  Let's keep her.  We desperately need more women.  

Edited May 3, 2017 by BkWurm1

[ruby24]

16 minutes ago, doram said:

In season 1, we got Iris and Eddie rolling in bed and talking about sleeping in, Barry and Linda making out without their shirts and Linda liking the way he vibrated. In season 2, Mr and Mrs Hawk from Legends got a hot and heavy yet technically PG sex scene.  

Season 1 didn't have this issue, that's true. Hmm. And you're right that no other show does either, that I knew.

[GHScorpiosRule]

7 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

 I can't explain this plot in any way that makes sense

Because it DOESN'T MAKE ANY FUCKING BLOODY SENSE! ?????

I don't care how damaged you are--unless the love of your LIFE, betrayed you in a MAJOR WAY, or you were brainwashed to kill her, NO FUCKING WAY would Barry, any iteration of him, KILL Iris! And Kreisberg can just STFU about how "GREAT" having turned Barry into doing this is. I've read my share of romance novels where the hero is as tortured and damaged as all get out, but never, never did he ever turn against the woman he was in love with and who loved him in return. Kreisberg can now EAT SHIT AND DIE.????

7 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Hey, at least it turns out that he really IS the fastest man alive on his show.

Ha. Ha. You'll notice, that for the past two weeks, the show has NOT aired that monologue where Barry talks about being the Fastest Man Alive. Just the "previously on The Flash..." voice overs.?

Edited May 3, 2017 by GHScorpiosRule
Emojis!!

[Chicago Redshirt]

Hey, at least Barry Allen is in fact the fastest man alive. The only question is which one?

[ohjoy]

CTB managed to make like H.R.! He was adorable! What bizarro world am I living in?!

(Sidenote: I like Tom Cavanaugh and Anne Dudek interacting so much that I found myself wondering what it would have been like if she had been cast as Caitlin Snow. WOW, that would have been something. But then I'd never want her to get stuck on this show. Run Anne Run! And take the Toms with you.)

On topic: Nicely done reveal of something we've known for weeks (if not months). It's still completely nonsensical, but well-acted.

 

1 hour ago, quarks said:

Wait, wait! I think I figured it out! Maybe the constant stress of arriving at places supposedly in Central City that look exactly like places in Star City, National City, and various past and future places, combined with needing to run through warehouses almost every single week, just grew to be TOO MUCH and Barry was like, ok, even going evil has got to be better than this.

Okay I normally don't notice anything ever, but did Barry and Joe have one of their conversations about how Joe should tell Cecile the truth in Arrow's former clock tower? I know that was the training facility portion of the Star Labs (so obviously not new), but for some reason the window-like circles over at one end actually stood out to me this time. (I guess when I stop paying attention to the acting or the storyline I finally start paying attention to everything else.)

[HerkyJerky]

When Team Flash was explaining everything to Anne Dudek and she said, "So, I'm like Sarah Connor" and Cisco says "More like ??? but nice try, though", who did he say and what reference was that?  Thanks!

[innocuouspuff]

19 minutes ago, HerkyJerky said:

When Team Flash was explaining everything to Anne Dudek and she said, "So, I'm like Sarah Connor" and Cisco says "More like ??? but nice try, though", who did he say and what reference was that?  Thanks!

Miles Dyson, the creator of Skynet that is enlisted to help the Connors in Terminator 2.

[colorbars]

3 hours ago, Rachel RSL said:

This is the only plausible explanation I can think of but didn't Barry magically heal Future Team Flash last week? Did Emo Barry change his mind and turn super emo after 2017 Barry left?

This stupid show. (And yet I keep watching.)

I wonder if Barry actually sticking around and helping them become a team again will have any impact or not. I do think the time remanent theory makes more sense than it being the future Barry we saw last week, but say it is the real Barry, you'd think getting him back into the swing of thing would make a different from causing him to become evil/Savitar. But maybe I just want that episode to have a point when it all could've been wrapped up in half the time.

1 hour ago, doram said:

In season 1, we got Iris and Eddie rolling in bed and talking about sleeping in, Barry and Linda making out without their shirts and Linda liking the way he vibrated. In season 2, Mr and Mrs Hawk from Legends got a hot and heavy yet technically PG sex scene. 

Meanwhile no other CWTV show on this time slot - from Vampire Diaries to the Originals to Supergirl has this problem.

Seems to me that the PG rating only needed to be enforced when they had no choice but to make  Westallen canon. 

Actually, Supergirl is even more PG than The Flash is. The only sex related thing they've done in two seasons was showing clothes laying on the floor and Mon-el waking up in Kara's bed without a shirt on (alone). At least Barry/Iris were shirt in bed together.

Edited May 3, 2017 by colorbars

[HunterHunted]

21 minutes ago, HerkyJerky said:

When Team Flash was explaining everything to Anne Dudek and she said, "So, I'm like Sarah Connor" and Cisco says "More like ??? but nice try, though", who did he say and what reference was that?  Thanks!

Miles Dyson played by Joe Morton. He created the microchip that would lead to Skynet. In T2, he helps Sarah, John, and the terminator to break into Cyberdyne to destroy the early version of Skynet.

[Trini]

1 hour ago, BkWurm1 said:

Oh and I liked  Tracy a lot.  Let's keep her.  We desperately need more women.  
 

DESPERATELY. Let Linda, Gypsy, Cecile, Jesse, and Tracy be recurring (not regulars, or they'll get screwed!).

And the show itself NEEDS a reboot/retooling/revamp but they're probably already got their outline for Season 4 by now. 

[TDT]

1 hour ago, VCRTracking said:

As someone who grew up watching Spider-Man and his Amazing Friends which featured Iceman my reaction to Killer Frost making and riding around the city in an actual ice slide was:

I admit I did not guess who Savitar was. I mean future Barry was on a list of suspects but not at the top. It's an old comics thing having the villain be a future version of the hero who turned evil(Adam Warlock and Magus).

I just know the writers and fx people watched episodes of that show for references..plus the X-movies had missed opportunities to have Bobby Drake use this ability..

As for Killer Frost im shocked they didnt have her making ice-related puns like a certain character did in Batman & Robin..

"Ok everybody..CHILL!!"

"Your'e not sending ME to the cooler,Flash!" etc

So we waited all this time to discover that Barry's worst ever enemy is..*drum roll* HIMSELF! uggh..

Off-topic,loved that new Progressive commercial "It's called a NAP,Susan Lucci!!" lol

[FiveByFive]

4 hours ago, bettername2come said:

I'm fine with her sticking around. She and Tom Cavanagh have good chemistry. And the Narnia fan in me is deeply amused at her calling Caitlin "The White Witch."

Honestly, Tracy made HR enjoyable for me tonight. I didn't care either way before but now the two are kind of adorable. I recall thinking, "I hope she sticks around for a little while." 

3 hours ago, KirkB said:

In theory, if they can keep Savitar from killing Iris it should mean Savitar wouldn't be created in the first place, and he wouldn't be in a position to kill her, which means they wouldn't need to save her because

This is very tricky and I'm not sure how they're going to wiggle their way out of it. Future Barry is Savitar and knows everything current Barry knows right down to the words used in discussions between characters -- how is he ever going to do anything "different" that wasn't done before? Everything that has happened has apparently already happened despite the fact that they've tried to change things.

4 hours ago, KirkB said:

Somebody raised a good point about taking Iris to Earth 3. Or even to Earth...whatever it is, and letting her hang out with Kara for a while. At least we know how Savitar will be beaten.

I mentioned this a while ago because it simply doesn't make sense that they know when Iris will die, they know where Iris will die, they know what she's wearing when she does die and they know who will kill her but they're doing nothing proactive to stop that by removing her from the situation entirely. Destroy the outfit! Go to Earth 3 where we know you don't die! Do something other than wandering around with the group going, "Gee, Barry I hope you guys figure it out! Now I'm gonna go type on a computer or something! Bye!" 

It'd be one thing if she said, "I don't think I can change this no matter what I do!" but all they were doing the middle part of the season is trying to change it. The simple solution would be to send her as far away from where she dies as possible: another Earth entirely. 

[quarks]

52 minutes ago, RandomMe said:

 

Okay I normally don't notice anything ever, but did Barry and Joe have one of their conversations about how Joe should tell Cecile the truth in Arrow's former clock tower? I know that was the training facility portion of the Star Labs (so obviously not new), but for some reason the window-like circles over at one end actually stood out to me this time. (I guess when I stop paying attention to the acting or the storyline I finally start paying attention to everything else.)

Not sure about that since my own attention was wandering this episode, but Joe and Cecile had their conversation in one of the sets that Oliver used as a campaign office that has magically managed to travel through time at least three times, and the college lab set appeared earlier on Flash and Legends of Tomorrow. I'm waiting for Oliver to shoot an arrow through it in the next few episodes with "YOU HAVE FAILED THIS SUSPENSION OF DISBELIEF!"

This is still nowhere near as bad as Team Arrow zipping though Joe West's house to look for bad guys in a recent episode, or many of the other set horrors of this season, but it's still distracting.

[BkWurm1]

2 hours ago, phoenics said:

Does anyone understand how time remnants work?

There seem to be two kinds of time remnants. The one that made sense (sort of) was when Eobard's past self (the version he was before he ever killed Barry's mom and assumed Well's identity) tried to kill Barry a year after Eddie killed himself.  The idea being that when Eddie killed himself and Eobard then "died", it was after his former self had already bumped into Barry in the future, so that was just a left over event that had already happened and had a fixed path he had to follow on his way to the future where he turns into the Wells that Eddie's death destroys.  (Of course since Eddie killing himself should have wiped out Eobard from ever traveling to the past, EVERYTHING should have reset but that's a different issue)

That time remnant doesn't fade away so much as continue on the path already laid out.  He just eventually catches up with the regular time line.  

The time remnant that doesn't make ANY sense is the ones that Barry and Zoom created by bringing a version of their self  from the past to the present and then allowing that one to be killed.  It makes no sense because if you die in the past, you would be dead in the future.  But that's the time remnant the Barry was talking about, running back and getting his past self to come to the future and to be expendable.  Now if the past self didn't die, then it would make sense and he could just return to his regular timeline.  But because they do die and yet Barry doesn't, it makes no logical sense whatsoever.  Like this plot.  

I really thought that at the very least they would have Barry be super old before he turned evil but it sounds like he's created just four years down the road.   

[futurechemist]

Okay we've finally solved the 20 episode mystery of who Savitar is. Maybe now in the final couple of episodes, the show will now get around to explaining what Savitar is trying to do and why. 

I'll give the show credit. I didn't think "I am the future Flash" was meant to be literal, just Savitar bragging metaphorically about being the next big thing.

[Trini]

Right - so most people had Barry as a candidate for Savitar, and there were clues throughout the season, too; so not a huge surprise. What might save this reveal (a little) is the how and why.

----

But something positive before bed: Carlos/Cisco's hair looked fab in this ep!

Edited May 3, 2017 by Trini

[AudienceofOne]

Gee, Savitar was Barry all along? Amazing. 

I was so astonished by this completely unexpected development that I stopped reading my book for a moment.

There was a brief, brief moment when I thought that maybe they were lining up Cisco to be Savitar and I thought, "that would be so completely unexpected". But, no. 

[AudienceofOne]

6 hours ago, phoenics said:

What doesn't make sense is any version of Barry Allen that would want to kill Iris West - unless the only way that evil Barry could live is for Iris to die.

Barry will only create the requisite time remnants of himself after he loses hope following Iris' death. So Iris' death is necessary for Savitar's creation.

This is why I originally thought that Savitar was Wally. It was Iris' future death that pushed Barry to train Wally to be as fast a possible and they made such a big deal about how he was progressing faster than he should have. Plus, there was the issue of his creation by Savitar in the first place and his rivalry with Barry. I still think this would have been more interesting. But, sure, Barry's greatest adversary is actually himself. That's original.

[catrox14]

30 minutes ago, AudienceofOne said:

Gee, Savitar was Barry all along? Amazing. 

I was so astonished by this completely unexpected development that I stopped reading my book for a moment.

There was a brief, brief moment when I thought that maybe they were lining up Cisco to be Savitar and I thought, "that would be so completely unexpected". But, no. 

"Oh, my I'm shocked by this unforeseen turn of events!"

[Argenta]

"Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!!"

[Spaceman Spiff]

"All's Wells that Ends Wells" I liked HR this episode and his little crush.

The reveal was, well what everyone has said, meh. The Barry that climbed out of the suit looked younger than emoBarry from 2024.

[Mellowyellow]

Why is it Barry???

Why????

In the words of the Backstreet Boys "Tell me whyyyyyyy"

They kept running that awful clip at the beginning of Iris getting stabbed. Why would Barry stab her???? She's such a nice girl, what did she ever do to anyone????

Can they resolve this by sending Iris out on a different day in a different outfit to give Evil Barry a cuddle????

Someone can write fanfic about how Iris cures evil Barry!!!!

I do not understand this writing choice!!!!!

[ottoDbusdriver]

7 hours ago, KirkB said:

No. Not us and not the writers. Remnants do whatever the show needs them to do in any given episode.

So EvilBarry time remnant lives forever into the future, gets two-faced and is never able to repair his face (for some reason), somehow acquires his fancy Savitar armor, and then travels far, far back in time, and gets stuck in the past where is becomes renowned as the god of speed, and proceeds to just hang out for a few thousand years and only reveal himself in the year leading up to Iris' death.

I'm pretty sure the writers did not think this through -- because if Barry doesn't create any time remnants leading up to the day of Iris' death, we will get a complete reset a la Eobard Thawne.  Again.  Which means they are already completely out of ideas and already repeating themselves from S1.

I also don't get Killer Frost's comment about scar tissue -- if Barry can completely regenerate spinal damage with no ill effects, why would he have any muscular scar tissue from prior stabbings, etc. ?

[bmoore4026]

..........can we get a new Flash, please?  How 'bout Bart Allen?  I like Bart Allen.  He wouldn't pull any Flashpoint/Savitar shit.  Have Barry and Iris have sex, shunt her off to the 30th Century, have her give birth to to the kids who will be Bart's and his cousin Jenni's parents and also be speedsters, Bart goes to the future, and everyone's happy.

Also, Cisco needs to get over what Julian did.  Seriously.  If it weren't for Julian, Saint Caitlin would be dead.

And Caitlin, dear, once again, you don't have to be evil.

[phoenics]

7 hours ago, ruby24 said:

Season 1 didn't have this issue, that's true. Hmm. And you're right that no other show does either, that I knew.

In an exchange on twitter with one of the writers, they claimed this show has a large kid audience... so that's why they've done this.  I guess they didn't realize this in S1?  Whatever - I still hate it.  I feel cheated and angry about it.  Don't focus on all of this romance if we can't even get sexy times from their core couple or any of the others.

[benteen]

5 hours ago, AudienceofOne said:

Gee, Savitar was Barry all along? Amazing. 

I was so astonished by this completely unexpected development that I stopped reading my book for a moment.

There was a brief, brief moment when I thought that maybe they were lining up Cisco to be Savitar and I thought, "that would be so completely unexpected". But, no. 

Bravo with the book comment.

You're right, this show doesn't exactly do unexpected.

[legaleagle53]

On second thought, why go down that rabbit hole?

Edited May 3, 2017 by legaleagle53

[maxineofarc]

5 hours ago, catrox14 said:

"Oh, my I'm shocked by this unforeseen turn of events!"

"Who could have predicted this very predictable thing?"

6 hours ago, Trini said:

But something positive before bed: Cisco's hair looked fab in this ep!

Cisco's hair looked GREAT. It's unfortunate that I just can't with his lousy attitude this season. Cisco! I loved you, man!

Also looking great: Caitlin's new outfit! There, that's two positive things.

[Airraz0r]

Kind of torn

DP did her part as KF, riding around the city a la Iceman. Like the costume to boot. OTOH, only thing about Savitar's revealed, while enjoyment, should've been used instead of the musical crossover just to keep things intense. 

Cisco overcoming limitations with Caitlin's well-being. 

After Savitar's reveal, I am just left with more questions.

[mac123x]

Dear Season 4 showrunners / writers:  Please for the love of all that is sane and rational, make the season-arc villain a) not a speedster and b) not a result of time travel shenanigans.  Thanks.

 

I haven't seen the episode other than bits I was watching during commercial breaks on PLL (that's how far down this show has fallen on my priorities).  I realized this morning that I didn't care if I was spoiled about the reveal.  I'm glad it's Barry because that makes so little sense I can turn off my brain and enjoy the fun.  Oh wait, I'm confusing this with the silly fun of LoT.   I can turn off my brain and enjoy the angst.

11 hours ago, KirkB said:

Somebody raised a good point about taking Iris to Earth 3. Or even to Earth...whatever it is, and letting her hang out with Kara for a while.

I've been saying that for weeks.  Alternatively, have Cisco and Iris go through a portal to some other Earth and not tell anyone where they're going.  If Barry doesn't know, Savitar won't know either so won't be able to follow them.

 

2 minutes ago, doram said:

I'd also think that watching some one's loved ones be brutally murdered (Nora, Henry, Iris), seeing their hero's back broken, or Cisco's frost bitten hands would actually be far more traumatizing for children to view than a few kisses.

LoTR - Return of the King included hundreds or thousands of deaths, rather brutal battle scenes, decapitations, etc.  Rated PG-13.  The Kings Speech contained no nudity, sex, or violence, but was rated R because of one scene where the Duke of York demonstrates that he doesn't stammer while cursing by saying the F word repeatedly.  The TV and movie Standards & Practices people are insane.

[Katsullivan]

1 hour ago, doram said:

The kids' audience is not the reason Barry returns from a future where he saw Iris's grave and pats her on the shoulder like a cat.  (Forget her being the love of his life - he returns from Flashpoint and hugs Wally because Wally was dying when Barry left but now, he practically dismisses Iris?) Just saying. ?

I still feel slightly murderous whenever I think about that, or that the original script was actually rewritten to erase Iris.

1 hour ago, mac123x said:

 

1 hour ago, doram said:

I'd also think that watching some one's loved ones be brutally murdered (Nora, Henry, Iris), seeing their hero's back broken, or Cisco's frost bitten hands would actually be far more traumatizing for children to view than a few kisses.

LoTR - Return of the King included hundreds or thousands of deaths, rather brutal battle scenes, decapitations, etc.  Rated PG-13.  The Kings Speech contained no nudity, sex, or violence, but was rated R because of one scene where the Duke of York demonstrates that he doesn't stammer while cursing by saying the F word repeatedly.  The TV and movie Standards & Practices people are insane.

Only, the MPAA rating for the Flash is the same in seasons 1-3. So this isn't a situation where the Standards & Practice people are asking CWTV to tone down on the sex/nudity of the first few seasons. This is CW claiming that they're censoring themselves because apparently they created the show with an older audience in mind, and suddenly realized that "kids watch the show".  You think about it for longer than five minutes, remember that a show like Vampire Diaries that specifically targets young teenage girls exists on the same network, and you realize just how ridiculously flimsy that excuse is. 

[Dawn16]

1 hour ago, Katsullivan said:

I still feel slightly murderous whenever I think about that, or that the original script was actually rewritten to erase Iris.

Only, the MPAA rating for the Flash is the same in seasons 1-3. So this isn't a situation where the Standards & Practice people are asking CWTV to tone down on the sex/nudity of the first few seasons. This is CW claiming that they're censoring themselves because apparently they created the show with an older audience in mind, and suddenly realized that "kids watch the show".  You think about it for longer than five minutes, remember that a show like Vampire Diaries that specifically targets young teenage girls exists on the same network, and you realize just how ridiculously flimsy that excuse is. 

On one hand, I support making the show family-friendly.  There is a large market for family-friendly super hero shows. And I understand that many families have a problem with romance scenes and no problem with a cartoonish violence and dark storylines.   My teenage daughter's friend is allowed to watch Flash only if it "stays PG."  On the other hand, the strangeness in the  portrayal of the Barry/Iris relationship and Iris in general goes beyond not seeing them in steamy PG-13 scenes.  I don't think families would object to sweet, passionate-but-not-steamy kisses between fully-clothed adults who are in a serious relationship.  And, as my daughter pointed out, it was odd seeing Iris so uninvolved in the efforts to save HER life.  She wants to get onboard the Barry/Iris ship, and respect Iris as a character on her own, but the show is giving us so little grounds for either. 

[Aeryn13]

I still remember the interview when the Season started "noone will see the reveal coming." Hahahaha. It was only the number one fan theory about it. So was this genuinely what they thought? Did they give viewers really so little credit?

And I`m not even saying it`s bad storytelling. Making Barry the villain was predictable but it could yield juicy material. Coming right after last week`s episode with emo!future!Barry it feels a bit redundant though. We saw that losing Iris broke Barry`s spirit, this is basically another version of it. Though when emo last week mentioned Savitar killed "most" of the time remnants, I already went "yup, except at least one".

Also, having two members of the team/core cast struggle with Jekyll/Hyde syndrom is a bit much.  

[sarthaz]

1 hour ago, Dawn16 said:

And, as my daughter pointed out, it was odd seeing Iris so uninvolved in the efforts to save HER life.  She wants to get onboard the Barry/Iris ship, and respect Iris as a character on her own, but the show is giving us so little grounds for either. 

Problem is Iris isn't a character anymore.  There was a time when we were supposed to believe she was a journalist, but even that strained credibility.  Now, she's basically a disposable woman whom the writers can stuff in a fridge (in flashforward) every few episodes without consequence to keep motivating Barry.  Joe and Iris have no business being at Flash HQ, because they're basically useless at this point.  Iris should go back to work at Jitters just to pass the time, and Joe should retire, because everyone is independently wealthy on this show, so he doesn't really need a job anyway.

[colorbars]

7 hours ago, doram said:

The Mon-El/Kara romance kicked off when they already put out this narrative that they want to keep the 8pm slot "family friendly". Kara/Mon-El still get more PDA in terms of quantity and quality than Westallen.

I don't think so? They seem pretty much the same to me. Pecks, with some longer kisses if the scene calls for it. Cuddling on the couch once, Westallen actually do that more. They got one make out scene at the end of an episode, but it was no more than that Barry/Iris couch make out from earlier this season. The difference between them and Alex/Maggie is stark and obvious, but I don't really see a different between them and WA.