S09.E04: The Etiquette of Friendship

[motorcitymom65]

41 minutes ago, ghoulina said:

 

Ramona and Carole: On the one hand, I'm so over Carole and the holier-than-thou attitude she has about the election. On the other hand, she DID say she was inviting people from all over the political spectrum, so I don't think it's just Ramona's political leanings. I guess I'm just confused - did Ramona originally say she didn't want to come and now DOES want to come? Was she ever officially invited, or was it just talked about in passing. Carole really should have just said, "Change of plans", then maybe Ramona would have got it. 

Yes, she did say that originally. When Carole first talked about her party (when they were at Beth's house), she said she had no interest in coming because it would just get into a debate about politics. Carole said they debated dumb shit like who was/was not invited to a party, so why not politics? 

[ghoulina]

10 hours ago, motorcitymom65 said:

It's impossible to believe that Carole is not better informed than Ramona about politics, which is the person she is talking about. I've never met Ramona, let alone spent 5 years with her, and I can say that with 100% certainty. People are very rarely informed about things they are not interested in. It's not a slight, it's just a fact. Ramona said herself she wasn't even going to bother to vote. So she doesn't really care. None of that makes Carole or her opinions or conclusions correct. She just knows more about the issues, which is not the same thing as saying that she doesn't also have personal bias about those issues. 

I'm not saying you're wrong about Carole being more informed than Ramona. She probably is. But I don't think Ramona not voting means she doesn't care. A LOT of people didn't vote because they DID care, but found none of the choices worthy. I think I heard Ramona say that she didn't like either one of them. Again, it's probably true that Carole knows more than Ramona, but it's not 100% given. And I feel like Carole's attitude extends beyond just Ramona. To me, she gives off this air of being superior to most people in knowledge of politics and the election. And I'm just not sure what she thinks she's reading that isn't available to the rest of us. Just because someone doesn't want to talk about the election constantly, that doesn't mean they have no idea what's going on. 

 

8 hours ago, breezy424 said:

 

OK. I'm going to go there on the bidet thing.  Yeah, I would never wash anything in a bidet.  Apparently Sonja wants to 'hand' wash her undies.  OK.  If the vessel is clean, what difference is there between using the kitchen sink and a bidet?  And...can one's undies also have traces of what a bidet is used for?  Yep.  Why is a washing machine any better?  A washing machine sees everything a bidet sees.  Bottom line (no pun.  OK.  Kind of),  no matter what is used to clean clothes, they all experience leftovers.  Again, I'm not saying I would use a bidet but I don't think anyone could say it's any more unsanitary than the other choices.  It's all about the water choice.  'They' say that warm to hot water should be used no matter what the 'vessel' of choice is.

 

LOL, I actually agree with you. I just wouldn't use a bidet because A. I wouldn't ever own one and B. It looked like a real back killer - hunched over that thing the way she was. I'd think the bathroom sink would be more suitable. 

4 minutes ago, motorcitymom65 said:

Yes, she did say that originally. When Carole first talked about her party (when they were at Beth's house), she said she had no interest in coming because it would just get into a debate about politics.

Okay, thanks. Then, as much as Carole's constant and superior election talk annoys me, I agree with her on this one. If Ramona wasn't interested to begin with, she should just stay home. She probably only wants to go now because she doesn't want to miss an opportunity not to be filmed or socialize with certain people - doesn't want to be left out. 

[Mojoker]

12 hours ago, lunastartron said:

Why is Dorinda busting out a photograph of Sonja from two and a half decades ago like it's a smoking gun? 

Is "are you how or have you ever been affiliated with Trump" the prevailing ethos of urban open mindedness? 

I think Bravo busted out the photograph of Sonja and Trump, not Dorinda. I think Dorinda was just being sarcastic because she doesn't believe that Sonja was an advisor to Trump as she claims to have been.

Edited April 28, 2017 by Mojoker

[Normades]

I haven't had a chance to read all the way through, so I apologize if anyone brought this up, but did  I hear Sonja say something about being at LuAnn's home in the Hamptons with the Count while LuAnn wasn't there?  It was a quick comment while she and Tinsley were walking and I haven't rewatched, but I was like WHAT??  I just wondered if she was trying to throw more shade cuz, the open marriage thing.  Anyone else hear something like that or did I have too much Skinnygirl??  (Please note:  I would not really drink Skinnygirl.  I have better taste and I detest Bethenny.)

[IKnowRight]

15 minutes ago, Mojoker said:

I think Bravo busted out the photograph of Sonja and Trump, not Dorinda. I think Dorinda was just being sarcastic because she doesn't believe that Sonja was an advisor to Trump as she claims to have been.

Yes, that's what I saw as well.  When Dorinda was on her crazed attack, she added to the insults by mocking Sonja as a Trump advisor.  Which was one of the random insults that had nothing to do with Dorinda's anger with Sonja but D used it in her rant.

On WWHL Bravo Andy showed us a an old 90s snapshot of Sonja & the Donald standing next to each other.  He said something about consulting on fashion? Maybe it was related to his Macys projects?  

I agree it's better to get it all out, but as Lu was trying to say, can we take it down a notch?  Carole told her it wasn't right either.  I like Dorinda at times but her eruptions are over the top reactions which Diet Coke does not explain...

[motorcitymom65]

Just now, IKnowRight said:

Yes, that's what I saw as well.  When Dorinda was on her crazed attack, she added to the insults by mocking Sonja as a Trump advisor.  Which was one of the random insults that had nothing to do with Dorinda's anger with Sonja but D used it in her rant.

On WWHL Bravo Andy showed us a an old 90s snapshot of Sonja & the Donald standing next to each other.  He said something about consulting on fashion? Maybe it was related to his Macys projects?  

I agree it's better to get it all out, but as Lu was trying to say, can we take it down a notch?  Carole told her it wasn't right either.  I like Dorinda at times but her eruptions are over the top reactions which Diet Coke does not explain...

Take it down a notch indeed. Or six.

Dorinda is such a contradictory personality to me. On one hand I like her, but on the other she kind of freaks me out. She seems to think herself the model of decorum at times, like at the Fuck You dinner when she was lecturing Heather on when it is/is not appropriate to use the word (certainly not in Europe, because it's just not done there), all the while slurring her words and screaming with shit all over her lip. Or in how one friend waits for another before entering a restaurant. She seems to be very clear on what is acceptable, and was furious that her Berkshire's party was ruined by talk of being a whore last season, but then she goes off on Sonja at a dinner party with much the same sort of innuendo and targeted humiliation. At least when Beth was screaming that Lu was a whore she was following it up with the fact that she had probably slept with as many guys as Lu has, and said it wasn't about the sex, it was about the subterfuge surrounding the sex. Dorinda made no such distinction. She seemed to be quite clearly calling Sonja a slut, based on her own morality and opinion as to what is acceptable, when it had nothing to do with her beef with Sonja. Then she just wants to forget it the next day, and Sonja is more than ready to let it happen. 

[Mojoker]

2 minutes ago, IKnowRight said:

Yes, that's what I saw as well.  When Dorinda was on her crazed attack, she added to the insults by mocking Sonja as a Trump advisor.  Which was one of the random insults that had nothing to do with Dorinda's anger with Sonja but D used it in her rant.

I agree it's better to get it all out, but as Lu was trying to say, can we take it down a notch?  Carole told her it wasn't right either.  I like Dorinda at times but her eruptions are over the top reactions which Diet Coke does not explain...

I think this photo predates, by a lot, Trump's association with Macy's. This looks to me like it was taken when Sonja was still hostessing.

[IKnowRight]

1 hour ago, motorcitymom65 said:

Yes, she did say that originally. When Carole first talked about her party (when they were at Beth's house), she said she had no interest in coming because it would just get into a debate about politics. Carole said they debated dumb shit like who was/was not invited to a party, so why not politics? 

Ramona has been out of sorts with the crew so far this year.   She seemed steamed with Bethenny from day 1.  Can't remember why exactly she didn't invite Sonja to stay with her at the Hamptons then disinvited her...maybe she thought she might have Dorinda?  Carole kept that tidbit in the back of her mind for future use...but something is off with the Ramona coaster more than the usual.  Even her hair is off, which as we know, needs it's critical blow dry to be camera ready.  Maybe it's bothering her that she turning 60?  We shall see as the seasons unfolds.

Edited April 28, 2017 by IKnowRight

[IKnowRight]

3 minutes ago, motorcitymom65 said:

Take it down a notch indeed. Or six.

Dorinda is such a contradictory personality to me. On one hand I like her, but on the other she kind of freaks me out. She seems to think herself the model of decorum at times, like at the Fuck You dinner when she was lecturing Heather on when it is/is not appropriate to use the word (certainly not in Europe, because it's just not done there), all the while slurring her words and screaming with shit all over her lip. Or in how one friend waits for another before entering a restaurant. She seems to be very clear on what is acceptable, and was furious that her Berkshire's party was ruined by talk of being a whore last season, but then she goes off on Sonja at a dinner party with much the same sort of innuendo and targeted humiliation. At least when Beth was screaming that Lu was a whore she was following it up with the fact that she had probably slept with as many guys as Lu has, and said it wasn't about the sex, it was about the subterfuge surrounding the sex. Dorinda made no such distinction. She seemed to be quite clearly calling Sonja a slut, based on her own morality and opinion as to what is acceptable, when it had nothing to do with her beef with Sonja. Then she just wants to forget it the next day, and Sonja is more than ready to let it happen. 

Dorinda is another walking contradiction.  It was like real housewives of NJ cray cray! Save it for the finale Dorinda.

 

She does clean up nice though!!  Except I didn't like the brown top she got as Kyles place with the pins...that was a miss to me. When she is all dressed up she looks so beautiful then her inner Laurita/Staub/Guidici comes out!  Look out ladies!

7 minutes ago, Mojoker said:

I think this photo predates, by a lot, Trump's association with Macy's. This looks to me like it was taken when Sonja was still hostessing.

Look at how sweet and beautiful she is in this picture.  Was she married to the old man yet?  She's so naturally attractive, she needs to move forward and stop living in the past.  Dorinda is right about that point.  Cut that cord Sonja, you can do it!

[Mojoker]

12 minutes ago, Mojoker said:

I think this photo predates, by a lot, Trump's association with Macy's. This looks to me like it was taken when Sonja was still hostessing.

This is interesting, if you haven't seen it.  http://www.newyorksocialdiary.com/social-diary/2011/the-price-of-playing-sonja-morgan

7 minutes ago, IKnowRight said:

Dorinda is another walking contradiction.  It was like real housewives of NJ cray cray! Save it for the finale Dorinda.

 

She does clean up nice though!!  Except I didn't like the brown top she got as Kyles place with the pins...that was a miss to me. When she is all dressed up she looks so beautiful then her inner Laurita/Staub/Guidici comes out!  Look out ladies!

Look at how sweet and beautiful she is in this picture.  Was she married to the old man yet?  She's so naturally attractive, she needs to move forward and stop living in the past.  Dorinda is right about that point.  Cut that cord Sonja, you can do it!

No, I'm pretty sure this is while she was hostessing at San Pietro. That's how she knew Trump and people like him, because they frequented the restaurant.

[Mozelle]

11 hours ago, Lemons said:

Carole never claimed to be claravoyent. A slight shift on where some of those votes were cast and it would have been different. Also, She didn't appear super confident to me over what the results would be.

As for the intellectual differences, we all saw the pep rallies that Trump had where his base booed the mention of the media, trump constantly called the New York Times and other notable news sources "fakes".  So where did his base get their news?  Breitbart and Steve bannon.  There have been polls that show Trump voters are in fact less informed. These comments Carole has made have not come out of thin air. And she's not alone in her contempt for Trump, she is in the majority, so why are so many people trying to discredit everything Carole says?  

Because it's Carole. ;) 

You're right that Carole never claimed to be clairvoyant. This expectation that she should've been able to call this election because she reads more and believed herself to better informed belies the fact that polling data was inaccurate (I believe) in large part because people were embarrassed to admit publicly that they were supporting Trump, a man who'd not only been mocked but called to the carpet for pussyfooting around about issues such as public support from white supremacists like David Duke. I mean, Trump had his core base, of course, who said, with no qualms, "I'm supporting Trump." But there were still more who were either silent or saying they were undecided when they were *actually* decided on Trump.

This is all to say, Carole is still better informed than Ramona, on this I have no doubt. Also, Carole has every right to say that she doesn't want Ramona at the election night party because she doesn't want to deal with what it would mean to have Ramona there. If we can understand why LuAnn would only want certain people at her wedding because she doesn't want folks ruining the vibe, it should be understandable why Carole wouldn't want certain vibe-ruiners (hello, Ramona Singer!) at her election night party.

Edited April 28, 2017 by Mozelle

[SoTheresThat]

10 hours ago, breezy424 said:

OK. I'm going to go there on the bidet thing.  Yeah, I would never wash anything in a bidet.  Apparently Sonja wants to 'hand' wash her undies.  OK.  If the vessel is clean, what difference is there between using the kitchen sink and a bidet?  And...can one's undies also have traces of what a bidet is used for?  Yep.  Why is a washing machine any better?  A washing machine sees everything a bidet sees.  Bottom line (no pun.  OK.  Kind of),  no matter what is used to clean clothes, they all experience leftovers.  Again, I'm not saying I would use a bidet but I don't think anyone could say it's any more unsanitary than the other choices.  It's all about the water choice.  'They' say that warm to hot water should be used no matter what the 'vessel' of choice is.

God, I can't believe I just posted this.  And full disclosure, I do the 'regular' warm/cold cycle on my washing machine.  Supposedly, experts think I should be doing 'hot'.  And as an aside, I have one of those newer 'efficient'  washers that tangle the clothes up so bad that I have no idea of what goes on in there.  Removal is a delicate process because I'm afraid the clothes are going to be torn into pieces.  Everything does end up 'ok' but I miss my old Maytag. 

It's all pipes!!!!

[zoeysmom]

Carole wants validation because she was once a practicing journalist and as such she utilizes the sources she considers superlative to non-journalists*.   Carole has repeated written and stated all she wants is acknowledgement that she is better informed than the others.   It is a dangerous road. Will we have to weigh who is better informed about fashion, home design (all valid career pursuits) relationships, nutrition sex or etiquette?  Heather was very knowledgeable in a variety of areas and she finally got annoyed when Bethenny kept dispensing unsolicited advice.  I don't know that one person's advice or take on matter is any more astute than another's.  As far as the others Bethenny, Luann, and Dorinda have all been in the company of Hillary (during the election cycle), which would at least indicate to me they have more than just a passing interest in politics.   

Ramona's side is pretty simple, it is a filmed event and she has been excluded.  Ramona just wanting to drop by for a photo op is pretty demonstrative that she was using Carole's party as a footnote to her perceived fabulousness.  I really didn't think Carole should have gone to Luann's engagement party because essentially she was just there to observe and snark on the couple.  So maybe Carole is fearful that Ramona (with her big mouth) might become witness to something about Carole's group that isn't flattering and doesn't want to risk a possible embarrassing moment.  Carole has now fallen into the pit of "who is not invited or disinvited" being the story instead of the event.  My other theory-Carole disinviting Ramona was payback for Ramona's treatment of Bethenny at dinner. 

*During the election cycle I watched several hours a day of election coverage, and read numerous articles throughout the day.  One thing is true there are only so many hours in a day a candidate or one of their surrogates to make public statements, reading or watching involves a lot of duplicative information.   So I am not sure if quantifying makes one more informed.  I really wish someone would have asked Carole who and what she was watching and reading so I could get a feel for what she deems being superlatively informed. 

[diadochokinesis]

2 hours ago, queenjen said:

Woo, sister, i was in the desert too in a no shoe home when bidets graced my bathroom! Dusty and ashy took turns in the bidet, but never my smalls. I was more appalled by Sonja dropping her lacey underthings on the toilet rug. Just not done. how dreadful.

 

LOL.  That just isn't how you wash your undies!  You don't drop them on the nasty rug!

2 hours ago, queenjen said:

You use the toilet in the usual way, then you crab walk across to the bidet (you better have used toilet paper, or you'd be dripping/dropping!) and then you rinse. Also, after sex or, and this is contentious, Australians like to throw shade at Europeans for using their bidets as an alternative to proper showering/bathing: just rinse your privates and you're good to go. Not me, or anything, just reporting a cultural stereotyping that may be unique to this country. Places I've travelled in Asia, you get no toilet paper and some system, often a piece of hose, or a jug of water. Sometimes a western toilet, more often a squat toilet. We are so close to S/E Asia here, that we have signs in some of our public restrooms, diagrams, of someone squatting with their feet on the toilet seat with a big cross over it! I made sure I had kleenex with me travelling, and I wondered about people walking around with poo water running down their legs. I guess you have to learn to clean yourself in this manner as a child. Bidets were a rarity in this country 20 years ago. More common now, but still not widely accepted. Very continental, Sonja loves to show hers off, which other housewife can we say has one?

ETA: The bidet in my bathroom had it's own towel rack. But seriously? Who's going to wipe down their privates and PUT THE TOWEL BACK??? This always blew my mind, the design problem.

Also, we ARE seeing housewives like Luann this episode with the 'Rolls Royce of Toilets' which apparently costs a bomb and has the bidet function built in. Much better idea. There was one on the last season of Below Deck also, and Andy Cohen is supposed to have one. I've seen them on Million Dollar Listing too.

 

Ooh, I can explain the towel rack because this completely threw me and I had to have some of my Arab friends explain.  So, in the Middle East, you will find bidets and shattafs by the toilet.  For those that don't know, a shattaf is a hose complete with a nozzle at the end. Arabs tend to prefer a shattaf to clean their tush than the bidet. After you spray down there, you use the towel to dry yourself off and then hang it up. I told one of my friends who is Egyptian but married to a Brit that my American sensibilities just found that unhygienic and she said she never did until after she married her husband and she saw how his family reacted to it. You apparently just use the towel for one day and then wash it. Their thought process is that you thoroughly washed down there so it should be clean and just wiping up water.

My American thought is that the shattaf makes it really easy to fill up a mop bucket.  LOL. I use the bidet to wash my feet and the shattaf to fill a bucket. 

[RHJunkie]

29 minutes ago, Mozelle said:

Because it's Carole. ;) 

You're right that Carole never claimed to be clairvoyant. This expectation that she should've been able to call this election because she reads more and believed herself to better informed belies the fact that polling data was inaccurate (I believe) in large part because people were embarrassed to admit publicly that they were supporting Trump, a man who'd not only been mocked but called to the carpet for pussyfooting around about issues such as public support from white supremacists like David Duke. I mean, Trump had his core base, of course, who said, with no qualms, "I"m supporting Trump." But there were still more who were either silent or saying they were undecided when they were *actually* decided on Trump.

This is all to say, Carole is still better informed than Ramona, on this I have no doubt. Also, Carole has every right to say that she doesn't want Ramona at the election night party because she doesn't want to deal with what it would mean to have Ramona there. If we can understand why LuAnn would only want certain people at her wedding because she doesn't want folks ruining the vibe, it should be understandable why Carole wouldn't want certain vibe-ruiners (hello, Ramona Singer!) at her election night party.

Was the polling data that inaccurate though? I'm not American so I kind of lost interest after Bernie Sanders conceded his run for Democratic leader...but even as far back as then, there were several polls that indicated that Bernie Sanders consistently was the preferred candidate against any of the Republican candidates while Trump had come out ahead against Clinton in a number of polls. This was a point that Sanders brought up a lot during his campaign - that the polls suggested that he was the best candidate to ensure that the Democratic party would retain the House. I do think that the polls overall didn't best reflect the Trump support - not just for the embarrassment but to avoid the condemnation. A lot of people were labelled racists and sexists for their support of Trump when in reality they were voting specifically for his policies that they felt would improve the economy. Personally, I'm of the mind that you need to vote for the entire package. Economic improvement should not come at the cost of other policies that may infringe other people's constitutional rights...but that's just me. But again, goes back to another reason why I think many Trump supporters stopped publicly coming out in support. I think the signs were there but people ignored them because it seemed too outrageous.

I agree, I would wager that Carole is more informed than Ramona - though I don't necessarily agree that it should be used as a means to dismiss someone's opinion (Carole wouldn't have cared to address Ramona's lack of political knowledge if Ramona was all for Clinton). And Carole certainly has the right to invite or dis-invite whoever she wants. If I felt so strongly about the candidates involved, I wouldn't want to be hanging around the opposition either...but be honest about it - instead she took the opportunity to make it seem like Ramona couldn't come because Ramona would be a problem. Ramona had already shown that she wasn't interested in getting into a political debate and the moment she was being pushed about her opinions, she dismissed them quickly saying that she didn't want to talk about, she didn't care, she wouldn't vote, etc.

[Mozelle]

19 minutes ago, RHJunkie said:

Was the polling data that inaccurate though? I'm not American so I kind of lost interest after Bernie Sanders conceded his run for Democratic leader...but even as far back as then, there were several polls that indicated that Bernie Sanders consistently was the preferred candidate against any of the Republican candidates while Trump had come out ahead against Clinton in a number of polls. This was a point that Sanders brought up a lot during his campaign - that the polls suggested that he was the best candidate to ensure that the Democratic party would retain the House. I do think that the polls overall didn't best reflect the Trump support - not just for the embarrassment but to avoid the condemnation. A lot of people were labelled racists and sexists for their support of Trump when in reality they were voting specifically for his policies that they felt would improve the economy. Personally, I'm of the mind that you need to vote for the entire package. Economic improvement should not come at the cost of other policies that may infringe other people's constitutional rights...but that's just me. But again, goes back to another reason why I think many Trump supporters stopped publicly coming out in support. I think the signs were there but people ignored them because it seemed too outrageous.

I agree, I would wager that Carole is more informed than Ramona - though I don't necessarily agree that it should be used as a means to dismiss someone's opinion (Carole wouldn't have cared to address Ramona's lack of political knowledge if Ramona was all for Clinton). And Carole certainly has the right to invite or dis-invite whoever she wants. If I felt so strongly about the candidates involved, I wouldn't want to be hanging around the opposition either...but be honest about it - instead she took the opportunity to make it seem like Ramona couldn't come because Ramona would be a problem. Ramona had already shown that she wasn't interested in getting into a political debate and the moment she was being pushed about her opinions, she dismissed them quickly saying that she didn't want to talk about, she didn't care, she wouldn't vote, etc.

I don't wanna get too bogged down, but things I was reading weren't that Trump was coming out ahead of Clinton in polls. Pieces that I read had both Clinton and Sanders, based on polling data, coming out ahead of Trump. It's that the margin between Sanders v. Trump and Clinton v. Trump was more in favor of Sanders. 

Regarding the party, I think that Carole is being honest about why she doesn't want Ramona at her party, though. I think that Carole believed Ramona and her "bull in a china shop" tendencies would be a problem on a very tense election night, and she made an executive decision to talk Ramona out of coming.

Edited April 28, 2017 by Mozelle

[motorcitymom65]

10 minutes ago, RHJunkie said:

 

I agree, I would wager that Carole is more informed than Ramona - though I don't necessarily agree that it should be used as a means to dismiss someone's opinion (Carole wouldn't have cared to address Ramona's lack of political knowledge if Ramona was all for Clinton). And Carole certainly has the right to invite or dis-invite whoever she wants. If I felt so strongly about the candidates involved, I wouldn't want to be hanging around the opposition either...but be honest about it - instead she took the opportunity to make it seem like Ramona couldn't come because Ramona would be a problem. Ramona had already shown that she wasn't interested in getting into a political debate and the moment she was being pushed about her opinions, she dismissed them quickly saying that she didn't want to talk about, she didn't care, she wouldn't vote, etc.

But what is wrong with that? Isn't Ramona often a problem at gatherings? As Mozelle pointed out above, Lu doesn't want her at her wedding. Dorinda didn't want Sonja at the Berkshire's last year because she thought she might be a problem, and Ramona disinvited Sonja to her home because she wanted Dorinda there, and having Sonja there would be a problem. A person being a problem for whatever reason is usually the reason they get left off of some of the invites. 

[sekay87]

  38 minutes ago, RHJunkie said:

 

I agree, I would wager that Carole is more informed than Ramona - though I don't necessarily agree that it should be used as a means to dismiss someone's opinion (Carole wouldn't have cared to address Ramona's lack of political knowledge if Ramona was all for Clinton). And Carole certainly has the right to invite or dis-invite whoever she wants. If I felt so strongly about the candidates involved, I wouldn't want to be hanging around the opposition either...but be honest about it - instead she took the opportunity to make it seem like Ramona couldn't come because Ramona would be a problem. Ramona had already shown that she wasn't interested in getting into a political debate and the moment she was being pushed about her opinions, she dismissed them quickly saying that she didn't want to talk about, she didn't care, she wouldn't vote, etc.

But what is wrong with that? Isn't Ramona often a problem at gatherings? As Mozelle pointed out above, Lu doesn't want her at her wedding. Dorinda didn't want Sonja at the Berkshire's last year because she thought she might be a problem, and Ramona disinvited Sonja to her home because she wanted Dorinda there, and having Sonja there would be a problem. A person being a problem for whatever reason is usually the reason they get left off of some of the invites. 

I agree with you. The reason the women get pissed off about not being invited is not because they actually feel excluded or care to show up, it's because that is where filming is taking place. If they are disinvited/not included at events, it can jeopardize their involvement with the show because they are expected to be at as many filmed events as possible. They can get fired for not showing up. One example is Aviva, who refused to go on Housewife trips and got fired as a result. This is Carole's party. She can invite whoever she wants. BUT, I also know the real reason Ramona is pissed is because this is where the cameras are going to be on that night and if most of the other 'Wives are going to be there, it is one more instance where she can't get on camera.

[zoeysmom]

24 minutes ago, motorcitymom65 said:

But what is wrong with that? Isn't Ramona often a problem at gatherings? As Mozelle pointed out above, Lu doesn't want her at her wedding. Dorinda didn't want Sonja at the Berkshire's last year because she thought she might be a problem, and Ramona disinvited Sonja to her home because she wanted Dorinda there, and having Sonja there would be a problem. A person being a problem for whatever reason is usually the reason they get left off of some of the invites. 

I can't figure out why Ramona is so blind to the obvious. These franchises are getting to the point where there is much more of a team mentality and the continuing idea these women would even be in another's presence they despise so much is stretching viewers acceptance of such an idea.  I applaud Bethenny for waiting on the car, she didn't want to be there and didn't want to fake it.  She still got camera time and her input was actually pretty entertaining.  I also don't think Bethenny has to accept another insincere apology from Ramona.  Never understood what anyone liked about Ramona to begin with other than she is such an ass she is entertaining. 

The oddest thing to me is the Luann wedding stuff, Ramona still holding out hopes for an invitation.  When someone is not invited there seems to be a significant amount of time devoted to why the person didn't invite someone.  Who would even ask the person why they weren't invited?  Storyline, oure and simple.  In the case of Ramona and Sonja I would think the answer is self-evident.  Sonja was talking about going to the wedding way back in July and September, in interviews with Luann.  (Luann didn't commit.) I don't buy she all of a sudden had her Thailand trip pop up. 

[crgirl412]

1 hour ago, SoTheresThat said:

It's all pipes!!!!

LOL!!!!  I see what you did there!!!   

[motorcitymom65]

42 minutes ago, Higgins said:

To be fair, you are dead wrong on the electoral college being an outdated system. In fact it is more relevant than ever at protecting the interests of non-urban voter.

How so? I got it back in the day when people didn't have access to so much media, the internet, etc. People use to go and hear their potential politicians make their case live. Most folks don't do much of that now because information is everywhere. Why is it more relevant now than ever? I don't think someone is dead wrong to believe it to be antiquated, it's just a matter of opinion. An opinion that a lot of people share. 

11 minutes ago, zoeysmom said:

I can't figure out why Ramona is so blind to the obvious. These franchises are getting to the point where there is much more of a team mentality and the continuing idea these women would even be in another's presence they despise so much is stretching viewers acceptance of such an idea.  I applaud Bethenny for waiting on the car, she didn't want to be there and didn't want to fake it.  She still got camera time and her input was actually pretty entertaining.  I also don't think Bethenny has to accept another insincere apology from Ramona.  Never understood what anyone liked about Ramona to begin with other than she is such an ass she is entertaining. 

The oddest thing to me is the Luann wedding stuff, Ramona still holding out hopes for an invitation.  When someone is not invited there seems to be a significant amount of time devoted to why the person didn't invite someone.  Who would even ask the person why they weren't invited?  Storyline, oure and simple.  In the case of Ramona and Sonja I would think the answer is self-evident.  Sonja was talking about going to the wedding way back in July and September, in interviews with Luann.  (Luann didn't commit.) I don't buy she all of a sudden had her Thailand trip pop up. 

I think Ramona totally gets it, which is why she wants to cozy up to Lu and Dorinda. In her mind, they came out on top last season. She wanted to be besties with Beth, but Beth got hammered away at least season. Now Lu looks really, really good to her. She will even cozy up to John if that is what Dorinda wants. I agree it is fake to the extreme, as Lu and Ramona detest each other and would at a moments notice throw the other one under the bus in a heartbeat. But at the end of the day, it is also why these gals are the most fascinating. They will put slights to the side if necessary to move the drama along. No every girl during every season, but for the long haul, they are able to accept things that no one I know would ever put up with for the sake of the show (and their ability to remain on the show). 

[crgirl412]

56 minutes ago, diadochokinesis said:

LOL.  That just isn't how you wash your undies!  You don't drop them on the nasty rug!

Ooh, I can explain the towel rack because this completely threw me and I had to have some of my Arab friends explain.  So, in the Middle East, you will find bidets and shattafs by the toilet.  For those that don't know, a shattaf is a hose complete with a nozzle at the end. Arabs tend to prefer a shattaf to clean their tush than the bidet. After you spray down there, you use the towel to dry yourself off and then hang it up. I told one of my friends who is Egyptian but married to a Brit that my American sensibilities just found that unhygienic and she said she never did until after she married her husband and she saw how his family reacted to it. You apparently just use the towel for one day and then wash it. Their thought process is that you thoroughly washed down there so it should be clean and just wiping up water.

My American thought is that the shattaf makes it really easy to fill up a mop bucket.  LOL. I use the bidet to wash my feet and the shattaf to fill a bucket. 

So one towel for an entire family to wipe their clean but wet "parts" for the day??  

[Jack Terrier]

Sue me!  I found Doris losing her shit with Sonja absolutely delicious!  I laughed my ass off.  The only thing missing was flying rice out of Doris' mouth.

I sometimes with I could just go at a particular person in my life like that; but ya know, I try and make it nice.

[diadochokinesis]

28 minutes ago, crgirl412 said:

So one towel for an entire family to wipe their clean but wet "parts" for the day??  

The way villas are set up here is usually that each bedroom has an ensuite bathroom. There is a guest bath downstairs but most people go to their own bathroom if they have to poo.  Sorry, no eloquent way to state that and I hate the word defecate.  LOL. It is just very culturally normal over here so they don't think anything of it. 

[AndySmith]

It's called a bum gun! And some people use it in conjunction with toilet paper.

[diadochokinesis]

1 minute ago, AndySmith said:

It's called a bum gun! And some people use it in conjunction with toilet paper.

Hey!  I'm trying to teach them the correct names for stuff!  

[archer1267]

Quote

I have never seen Ramona shrink away from an argument.

Did you see the 6th season where the women had to literally box Ramona in at a restaurant booth? :) They knew she'd pull a runner.

They wanted to confront Ramona over her sneaking away from Heather's Berkshires weekend. LuAnn was positioned on the end of the booth, and I remember her cackling that she was the linebacker and that Ramona wasn't going to get past her. Ramona clearly felt cornered and broke down into hysterics. I think when SHE's the center of an argument, she uses her childhood/verbally abusive dad as a way to shut the conversation down. But interestingly, she seems to have no problem making someone else the focus, or enjoying seeing someone else on the hot seat.

[Quita]

3 hours ago, SoTheresThat said:

It's all pipes!!!!

Different pipes go to different places!  ; )  LOL!

[WireWrap]

5 hours ago, ghoulina said:

Late watching. Just got back from vacation late Wednesday night. Just had a few brief thoughts before perusing the thread. 

Sonja and Dorinda : Yes, Dorinda was loud and obnoxious and could have picked a better time and place. But....I kind of loved it. As a viewer, it was hilarious watching her throw out broken toilets and the Holland Tunnel of vaginas. Dorinda is fun for me because she can be so poised and classy, but when she loses her shit she really loses her shit. I also kind of like how she spews all over you and then moves on. That's much more my style than passive aggressive remarks and fakery and shit talking behind backs. 

Sonja and Tinsley : On the one hand, if you're staying with someone that you have friends in common with, I think it would be nice to give a heads up as to where you're going and extend an invite. On the other hand, Sonja probably doesn't invite Tinsley everywhere SHE goes....and she really needs to stop acting like she owns everyone. As if everyone is HER friend, and Tinsley is benefiting immensely from her connections. Didn't Lu say that she knew Tinsley socially from many years before? Also, why is Tinsley stuck in the kid's room and not allowed to bring guys back? Sonja didn't have the same rules for Lu, did she? 

Ramona and Bethenny : Bethenny should have probably formally declined the party, but Ramona shouldn't act surprised that she wasn't there. I don't get why she can't understand why B is mad. It's not because of talking about the soft-porn (or whatever it was); it was HOW she brought it up. Only a moron would think that Brynn would be hearing about this. Ramona was just DYING to throw the gossip out there, and she thought she could use Bethenny's daughter as a way of making it look like she's bringing up the topic out of concern. I saw right through that shit and Bethenny did too. Ramona is just vile. 

Ramona and Carole: On the one hand, I'm so over Carole and the holier-than-thou attitude she has about the election. On the other hand, she DID say she was inviting people from all over the political spectrum, so I don't think it's just Ramona's political leanings. I guess I'm just confused - did Ramona originally say she didn't want to come and now DOES want to come? Was she ever officially invited, or was it just talked about in passing. Carole really should have just said, "Change of plans", then maybe Ramona would have got it. 

Final thought - I was super distracted during the dinner party because of Ramona's dining room chairs. I swear my grandma and papa had those exact same chairs. I remember the holes in the backs from all the Christmases we had there in the late 80s/early 90s. 

Well, the last time Sonja allowed a HW to stay with her, that HW ended up getting engaged (and to someone Sonja was on the "down low" with), so Tinsley has to stay in a room she won't bring a guy back to! LOL

[diadochokinesis]

9 minutes ago, archer1267 said:

Did you see the 6th season where the women had to literally box Ramona in at a restaurant booth? :) They knew she'd pull a runner.

They wanted to confront Ramona over her sneaking away from Heather's Berkshires weekend. LuAnn was positioned on the end of the booth, and I remember her cackling that she was the linebacker and that Ramona wasn't going to get past her. Ramona clearly felt cornered and broke down into hysterics. I think when SHE's the center of an argument, she uses her childhood/verbally abusive dad as a way to shut the conversation down. But interestingly, she seems to have no problem making someone else the focus, or enjoying seeing someone else on the hot seat.

 

Disclaimer: Ramona irritates me.
I'm wondering how much of Ramona's history does influence her behavior. We know her dad was abusive.  She's been very open about that.  So, she grew up in a household that didn't show her examples of what strong, healthy relationships looked like. She didn't learn how to disagree with people in a healthy manner. I would imagine that most interactions in her family were confrontational so that is how she communicates. 

Summary: Ramona doesn't need a facialist.  She needs a therapist. 

[RHJunkie]

2 hours ago, Mozelle said:

I don't wanna get too bogged down, but things I was reading weren't that Trump was coming out ahead of Clinton in polls. Pieces that I read had both Clinton and Sanders, based on polling data, coming out ahead of Trump. It's that the margin between Sanders v. Trump and Clinton v. Trump was more in favor of Sanders. 

Regarding the party, I think that Carole is being honest about why she doesn't want Ramona at her party, though. I think that Carole believed Ramona and her "bull in a china shop" tendencies would be a problem on a very tense election night, and she made an executive decision to talk Ramona out of coming.

I saw 2-3 polls that had Trump ahead of Clinton during the primaries but I think I saw one poll that where Trump was ahead of Clinton after they were named party leaders. In any case, I didn't think much of the polls either. I thought it was slam dunk win for Clinton until I saw Allan Litchtman's prediction that Trump would win...that's when I second guessed everything.

I think there has been differing interpretations of her reasons for dis-inviting Ramona because Carole's comments about Ramona causing drama, is very much Ramona-like but it's not how Ramona approached the topic of politics in all of the scenes we've seen. . Ramona e was uncharacteristically withdrawn from the political discussions as soon as she felt tension from having a dissenting opinion. Maybe you're right and that's what Carole meant and if that's the case, that's totally fair and within reason as well but the way she said it, it didn't explain it as clearly as you just did.

[RHJunkie]

2 hours ago, motorcitymom65 said:

But what is wrong with that? Isn't Ramona often a problem at gatherings? As Mozelle pointed out above, Lu doesn't want her at her wedding. Dorinda didn't want Sonja at the Berkshire's last year because she thought she might be a problem, and Ramona disinvited Sonja to her home because she wanted Dorinda there, and having Sonja there would be a problem. A person being a problem for whatever reason is usually the reason they get left off of some of the invites. 

It's the way Carole rationalized her decision. Lu doesn't want Ramona at the wedding because Ramona was actively engaging in discussions and gossip about Lu's fiance. Dorinda and Ramona dis-inviting Sonja was due to existing tension between the women. As I responded to another poster who interpreted Carole changing her mind due to Ramona's personality and the potential of her being a problem - that's a completely fair reason. Ramona is unpredictable and aggressive (though she was uncharacteristically not those things when she was talking politics with the women). If Carole had said that since Ramona has tension with Bethenny and given Ramona's personality, she didn't want to risk upsetting such an important night for her, again, totally get it. However, Carole explained it in a very general way that suggested that Ramona was already a problem - and many like myself, immediately interpreted it to mean that Ramona was too dramatic about the politics and she could potentially upset the night...except that in all the encounters, Ramona has been more subdued and Carole has been the pushy one so that explanation didn't make sense.

As I said to the previous poster, there are certainly reasonable explanations for Carole's decision, but at the very least, she didn't communicate herself clearly and so it leaves open the interpretation that Carole doesn't want her there because she's a Trump supporter despite saying that that's not the reason.

[JD5166]

8 hours ago, WaltersHair said:

I wonder how Tinsley feels about being the only woman in the group that still has a period. Ladies are getting a little long in the tooth.

Although this made me laugh, I am 51 (ugh) and due to having breast cancer in my early 40's I went into menopause early (around 47-48). However, I have lots of friends older than me who are still pretty regular! 

[ladle]

Is it just me or is Candace Bushnell starting to resemble Emma Thompson? 

[ladle]

I have to pause a moment to give kadooz to the editors of this show, who are really doing a bang-up job with what little material they have.  Loved the quick cuts to all the cast members after Dorinda's comment to Tinlsey that we all do effed up stuff sometimes.  Loved the montage of Sonja's exploits.  Loved the cut to Sonja's coy/proud expression when Dorinda accused her vag of needing an EZ pass (I don't even care if it was a reaction shot taken out of context-- at this point, I'll take it!). 

[motorcitymom65]

1 hour ago, JD5166 said:

Although this made me laugh, I am 51 (ugh) and due to having breast cancer in my early 40's I went into menopause early (around 47-48). However, I have lots of friends older than me who are still pretty regular! 

Agreed, I meant to comment when I read this last night. At 52, I still get that bad boy every month like clockwork, with nary a change as to how I remember these things in my 20's. 

[zoeysmom]

3 hours ago, motorcitymom65 said:

I think Ramona totally gets it, which is why she wants to cozy up to Lu and Dorinda. In her mind, they came out on top last season. She wanted to be besties with Beth, but Beth got hammered away at least season. Now Lu looks really, really good to her. She will even cozy up to John if that is what Dorinda wants. I agree it is fake to the extreme, as Lu and Ramona detest each other and would at a moments notice throw the other one under the bus in a heartbeat. But at the end of the day, it is also why these gals are the most fascinating. They will put slights to the side if necessary to move the drama along. No every girl during every season, but for the long haul, they are able to accept things that no one I know would ever put up with for the sake of the show (and their ability to remain on the show). 

Wisely I don't think Bethenny wants a lot to do with Ramona.  Bethenny has pointed out some of Ramona's various flaws from room calling on vacation to arriving and demanding everyone pay her compliments to far more serious transgressions.  To me, Ramona got a clue that Bethenny has a teeny bit of room for her and that is when filming is on going.  To me, Ramona wants to go out and be seen and check for potential guys and Bethenny doesn't seem interested in accompanying her. 

I think only Dorinda wanted anything to so with Ramona after the Reunion and Ramona took full advantage going to the Berkshires with her crap happy dog for a week or so.  I didn't see the Reunion as all that horrific for Ramona but she didn't miss an opportunity to emote.  If Ramona thinks Luann wants to be buddies she is most likely sadly mistaken.

[motorcitymom65]

2 hours ago, archer1267 said:

Did you see the 6th season where the women had to literally box Ramona in at a restaurant booth? :) They knew she'd pull a runner.

They wanted to confront Ramona over her sneaking away from Heather's Berkshires weekend. LuAnn was positioned on the end of the booth, and I remember her cackling that she was the linebacker and that Ramona wasn't going to get past her. Ramona clearly felt cornered and broke down into hysterics. I think when SHE's the center of an argument, she uses her childhood/verbally abusive dad as a way to shut the conversation down. But interestingly, she seems to have no problem making someone else the focus, or enjoying seeing someone else on the hot seat.

Great point. I should have said Ramona doesn't mind arguing when it doesn't involve her taking ownership of her own terrible behavior. 

[njbchlover]

10 hours ago, WaltersHair said:

I wonder how Tinsley feels about being the only woman in the group that still has a period. Ladies are getting a little long in the tooth.

I think if you asked Ramona, she would tell you that she still gets her period.  It wasn't that long ago that she and Sonja were hiding in a bathroom on a boat ride, while Ramona peed on a stick because she "thought" she was pregnant.    ;-)

[Trooper York]

11 hours ago, WaltersHair said:

I wonder how Tinsley feels about being the only woman in the group that still has a period. Ladies are getting a little long in the tooth.

Well Carole still bleeds. 

She is a bleeding heart of the first water. Proud of it. 

If you don't believe me look at her couch. Or her shirt. She seems to leave evidence everywhere because she is a freaking slob.

[KungFuBunny]

23 minutes ago, njbchlover said:

I think if you asked Ramona, she would tell you that she still gets her period.  It wasn't that long ago that she and Sonja were hiding in a bathroom on a boat ride, while Ramona peed on a stick because she "thought" she was pregnant.    ;-)

To be fair then we have to add Luanne to that list when she wanted to get pregnant with Jacques.

If Luanne had any viable eggs left even Danerys Stromborn wouldn't be able to bring them to life

[ladle]

On 4/27/2017 at 0:13 AM, mbaywife123 said:

Well obviously you missed the very important duck parade!

Are you referring to the commercial for the RHoBH Reunion?

[NeverLate]

14 minutes ago, Trooper York said:

Well Carole still bleeds. 

She is a bleeding heart of the first water. Proud of it. 

If you don't believe me look at her couch. Or her shirt. She seems to leave evidence everywhere because she is a freaking slob.

I guess that was the couch she shared with her husband, she got rid of it. Funny she got rid of it after it was shown  as a ratty, clawed up hairy couch..LOL

2 hours ago, ladle said:

Is it just me or is Candace Bushnell starting to resemble Emma Thompson? 

Hmm, I love Emma, so to me, not really 

[shoegal]

2 hours ago, RHJunkie said:

It's the way Carole rationalized her decision. Lu doesn't want Ramona at the wedding because Ramona was actively engaging in discussions and gossip about Lu's fiance. Dorinda and Ramona dis-inviting Sonja was due to existing tension between the women. As I responded to another poster who interpreted Carole changing her mind due to Ramona's personality and the potential of her being a problem - that's a completely fair reason. Ramona is unpredictable and aggressive (though she was uncharacteristically not those things when she was talking politics with the women). If Carole had said that since Ramona has tension with Bethenny and given Ramona's personality, she didn't want to risk upsetting such an important night for her, again, totally get it. However, Carole explained it in a very general way that suggested that Ramona was already a problem - and many like myself, immediately interpreted it to mean that Ramona was too dramatic about the politics and she could potentially upset the night...except that in all the encounters, Ramona has been more subdued and Carole has been the pushy one so that explanation didn't make sense.

As I said to the previous poster, there are certainly reasonable explanations for Carole's decision, but at the very least, she didn't communicate herself clearly and so it leaves open the interpretation that Carole doesn't want her there because she's a Trump supporter despite saying that that's not the reason.

But, it's not as if the weekend before the election Carole suddenly found out that Ramona was a Trump supporter (if in fact she was/is)....it was only after the dinner where Ramona started in on Bethenny that Carole decided that perhaps Ramona and the Election Party would not be a good combination.  I can't say that I disagree with Carole, I wouldn't have wanted her within ten blocks of me that night, let alone 10 feet.  

I personally see something very familiar in Carole's behavior about the election, I do think she's probably more informed than Ramona or even the "average voter" and I think her background in journalism contributes to this, having knowledge of how news stories are researched and written I think would give you some insight that others might not have, especially in this 2016 election where so many fake stories, rumors, innuendo and outright lies were floating about and being passed along as legitimate news.  I see Carole's 'bravado' and proclamations of "obviously she wins in a landslide" to be more about convincing herself more than anything, because I saw this phenomenon first hand with many of my friends and colleagues.  I personally like to prepare for the worst, and I could see what was coming, so I tried to warn them, but a lot of them were blindsided.  I went to bed early on election night because I just didn't have the strength to watch what was happening, so I am not looking forward to watching it on RH....but I will, because I'm a Bravo sucker.  

Edited April 28, 2017 by shoegal

[kassa]

On 4/27/2017 at 0:16 AM, Misslindsey said:

Also, Carole assuming that the kittens were girls, which they might be, but Carole acted like she did not know for sure.

That got me thinking that they were Carole's rent-a-pet props, and she never even bothered finding out even that much information about them. Early in her housewives career another (male) celeb who I think lived in her building told a story on WWHL about her wanting to borrow his dog for show purposes.  Bethenny might know and be making digs because of it, because why would you ever be brushed off on something so basic as "oh, I have no idea what my cats' genders are."   

[Trooper York]

42 minutes ago, ladle said:

  On 4/27/2017 at 0:13 AM, mbaywife123 said:

Well obviously you missed the very important duck parade!

Plus if you didn't see the guys coming in and out of Sonja's townhouse then you missed the very important dick parade.

[JD5166]

2 hours ago, njbchlover said:

I think if you asked Ramona, she would tell you that she still gets her period.  It wasn't that long ago that she and Sonja were hiding in a bathroom on a boat ride, while Ramona peed on a stick because she "thought" she was pregnant.    ;-)

The Jill Zarin knock knock menopause calling was spot on! Around 46 I thought I was pregnant because shit started disappearing for months at a time! A sure sign of peri-menopause, I  am glad it's "over" but my wine gut tells a whole different story! Ha! 

[BodhiGurl]

2 hours ago, kassa said:

That got me thinking that they were Carole's rent-a-pet props, and she never even bothered finding out even that much information about them. Early in her housewives career another (male) celeb who I think lived in her building told a story on WWHL about her wanting to borrow his dog for show purposes.  Bethenny might know and be making digs because of it, because why would you ever be brushed off on something so basic as "oh, I have no idea what my cats' genders are."   

Carole has posted photos of  the cats and her dog on Instagram, the cats are named Blue and Belle... I suspect she kept them...or is a long-term foster ?

9 hours ago, Normades said:

I haven't had a chance to read all the way through, so I apologize if anyone brought this up, but did  I hear Sonja say something about being at LuAnn's home in the Hamptons with the Count while LuAnn wasn't there?  It was a quick comment while she and Tinsley were walking and I haven't rewatched, but I was like WHAT??  I just wondered if she was trying to throw more shade cuz, the open marriage thing.  Anyone else hear something like that...

I heard this too and was taken aback... 

[snowblossom2]

On 4/27/2017 at 10:02 AM, motorcitymom65 said:

At the time of filming, Jason had become unhinged. He was sending Beth tons of emails every day. Nasty emails, and he was copying Dennis (and I believe some of Beth's staff).  It didn't hit the media until the end of November, and it sounds like from what Beth said, she hadn't told anyone except Carole, so none of the other gals knew what was going on. Dennis had his attorney send a C&D letter to Jason warning him to stop. 

Later, in January, Jason was arrested for stalking Beth. Apparently that case goes to trial this summer. 

http://www.usmagazine.com/celebrity-news/news/bethenny-frankels-ex-jason-hoppy-will-go-to-trial-for-stalking-case-w478994

This is what is so interesting about it all. Dorinda doesn't want to actually say on camera what Sonja was saying about her. I believe Sonja was furthering the discussion about Dorinda having a love affair with the white stuff, among other things. 

Thanks for the link, I don't know anything about the situation. The link does paint a different story, or at least a more general/vague story, and I wonder how much is B spin versus reality. I hate myself for wondering that, though, rather than taking presumably B's story about what happened (the info above) at face value

[Neurochick]

On April 26, 2017 at 10:10 PM, LilaFowler said:

 

I loved Dorinda's flip out at Ramona's party. I was waiting for the "not well, bitch" moment and it did not disappoint! Hilarious.

I loved it too.  I've been waiting for someone to call nasty Sonia out; but Ramona was right, she could have waited until dessert.

I loved the contrast between Luann's home and wherever Sonja was staying.  

I can't stand Sonja because she says all her shit and then when you confront her, she plays the victim.

Edited April 29, 2017 by Neurochick