S01.E05: Once Bitten

[susannot]

6 minutes ago, scrb said:

 

If the men and women here were working-class people, maybe working retail and factory jobs, you wouldn't have the same kind of school drama and the domestic abuse story line would be more gritty and she wouldn't be able to hire the bruises.

 

And the show wouldn't be getting half the attention. I hate to say it, but many of us love (well speaking for myself) watching glossy, pretty people with fabulous wardrobes, in their multimillion dollar oceanfront mansions, screw up their secretly dysfunctional lives.

[Sayla Vee]

I don't think Amabella's injuries are happening at school.  Children of this age group would notice and would blurt it out at some point.

I think Renata ought to invest in some Nanny-Cams.

[stanleyk]

One interesting throwaway line that I haven't seen mentioned yet is during the conversation between Madeline and Ed about confronting the suspected rapist. Maddy says Celeste is coming and Ed says something disbelieving like "Like Perry would allow Celeste to go?"

That line says to me that the controlling nature of the Perry/Celeste relationship is not lost on outsiders to that relationship. So while Celeste's friends may not know the extent of the violence and abuse, they do know on some level about the control issues. Which also gives the lie to Celeste's insistence that the twins don't see anything. When people who rarely see you (have we even seen Ed interact with Perry or Celeste?) sense there is a weird control dynamic in your relationship, you can bet people living in the house with you sense that and much more. Celeste may think her concealer and her delusions about "passion" are fooling everyone, but I bet more people than just Dr. Calamity Jane see through that.

[scrb]

2 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I used to think that HBO was a niche thing too but the stat is that 50 million people in the US or 36% of the US population subscribe to HBO so I have a feeling it's not always wealthy or even wealthy aspiring people.

First of all the population of the US is 360 million so 36% of the population would be over 120 million.

Secondly, the hit HBO shows hit maybe 10 million viewers per episode or that's what The Sopranos used to get.  I presume Game of Thrones gets more than that now but I doubt it's anywhere near 50 million.

When Sopranos was getting so much hype, some CBS executive wondered why they couldn't produce shows of such quality on broadcast TV.  However, to put it in perspective, the top CBS shows outdrew the most popular HBO shows by a huge margin, because price of HBO is a barrier for many people.

[violetr]

3 hours ago, iMonrey said:

If I live to be 1000 I will never be able to get inside the head of someone like Celeste who stays with a violent abuser. I know it's a deep, complicated psychological issue and blah blah blah but I just don't care. It's all very complex and fascinating and yet - I just don't get it. I never will. I don't really have any sympathy for her.

It's more than just a "deep, complicated psychological" issue, though. Many, many women don't leave their abusers because they are literally afraid the guy will kill them if they do. And often, that's precisely what happens. Here's one staggering statistic: up to 75% of abused women who are murdered are killed AFTER they leave their abuser. https://www.theguardian.com/money/us-money-blog/2014/oct/20/domestic-private-violence-women-men-abuse-hbo-ray-rice

As for Renata, I'm going to blame the over-the-top behavior on the way the character is written (perhaps intentionally) and not Laura Dern. LD is a fantastic, nuanced actor with a lot of range so I have to believe this is what the writers/directors want from that portrayal. 

[JBC344]

5 minutes ago, stanleyk said:

One interesting throwaway line that I haven't seen mentioned yet is during the conversation between Madeline and Ed about confronting the suspected rapist. Maddy says Celeste is coming and Ed says something disbelieving like "Like Perry would allow Celeste to go?"

That line says to me that the controlling nature of the Perry/Celeste relationship is not lost on outsiders to that relationship. So while Celeste's friends may not know the extent of the violence and abuse, they do know on some level about the control issues. Which also gives the lie to Celeste's insistence that the twins don't see anything. When people who rarely see you (have we even seen Ed interact with Perry or Celeste?) sense there is a weird control dynamic in your relationship, you can bet people living in the house with you sense that and much more. Celeste may think her concealer and her delusions about "passion" are fooling everyone, but I bet more people than just Dr. Calamity Jane see through that.

I actually didn't think Ed meant that literally.  I thought it was more of a "husband/wife/partner" thing than Ed saying that Perry was controlling.  I took it as Ed saying no husband would be comfortable letting their wife interact with a rapist. Sort of like on shows when the husband wants to do something stereotypical and there is a line about the wife not "letting" him do it.

[MaryWebGirl]

2 minutes ago, JBC344 said:

I actually didn't think Ed meant that literally.  I thought it was more of a "husband/wife/partner" thing than Ed saying that Perry was controlling.  I took it as Ed saying no husband would be comfortable letting their wife interact with a rapist. Sort of like on shows when the husband wants to do something stereotypical and there is a line about the wife not "letting" him do it.

I think it makes sense that Ed would clue in to Perry's controlling Celeste. As we've seen with Nathan he's used to being shoved in a "beta male" role and is wary of alphas. He might be picking up on that from Perry.

[mochamajesty]

36 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I used to think that HBO was a niche thing too but the stat is that 50 million people in the US or 36% of the US population subscribe to HBO so I have a feeling it's not always wealthy or even wealthy aspiring people.

HBO here is 10 bucks a month a la carte and is included with some packages "at no extra charge'. I doubt it is only  for the wealthy.

[Bitsy]

17 minutes ago, MaryWebGirl said:

I think it makes sense that Ed would clue in to Perry's controlling Celeste. As we've seen with Nathan he's used to being shoved in a "beta male" role and is wary of alphas. He might be picking up on that from Perry.

I think Ed picked up on Perry's controllingness.  I'm sure Perry and Celeste portray it to their friends as concern and protectiveness (just as they still pretend to in private).  I think there was also a hint in what Ed said of the Wrights being too classy for such a hairbrained scheme.

Ed was having a discussion with his wife about something he thought wasn't a great idea, but there was no hint that he would try to stop her from going or that he thought it was his decision in any way.  But he was surprised that Perry would *allow* Celeste to go.  There's a difference there.

[isiscloud]

Enjoyed the scene where Ziggy is toasted by Maddie, Ed, Abby and Chloe over dinner at their house.

The one really happy moment through the episode. Nice to see for a change. The preceding part where the children are running in slo-mo through the gate of the school made me think that there was going to be a problem with the pick-up.

[Hera]

10 hours ago, Lana X said:

I dont understand how amabella keeps having issues with a classmates like biting and nobody else sees it. that is baffling to me!

1 hour ago, Sayla Vee said:

I don't think Amabella's injuries are happening at school.  Children of this age group would notice and would blurt it out at some point.

I've been wondering why the teacher hasn't been speaking to Amabella's friends—she and Chloe are close, right? Even if Chloe doesn't know who's attacking Amabella, I bet she could narrow down the list of suspects for the adults if they simply asked her which kids she and her friends played with that day. But no, the only solution the adults can seem to think of is to ask Amabella, get frustrated when she says nothing, and then talk to Jane about Ziggy some more, all while assuring her that they had no evidence her son is the culprit (and that they don't really believe he's done anything). Go talk to the other children! These kids are in the first grade, so only about six or seven years old—even the savviest among them isn't going to figure why the adults want to know who's playing with whom until well after they've given up all the information they have. At that age, I bet the culprit could be induced to incriminate him- or herself, if questioned in the right way.

Given how much denial Celeste is in about whether or not she's being abused (she is), I wonder if we're supposed to think she's in denial about what her sons have observed. We haven't been shown that they know what's going on (though, as other posters observed, they obey their father a lot faster than they obey their mother), but this show doesn't really let us see anything from the kids' points of view. I would bet that they've seen more than their parents think and that one or both of the twins is Amabella's bully. In fact, that and the theory that Perry is also Ziggy's father would make the most sense (plus, the silhouette of Jane's rapist in the flashbacks really does look like Perry—Alexander Skarsgård has a pretty distinctive build, especially among the actors on this show). I agree it's a little obvious, but at this point, we're so far through the series that I think any other explanation would require elements (characters, pieces of evidence, etc.) that would have to be introduced at the last minute, and I'd feel cheated.

Despite the trip to San Luis Obispo (Jane sniffing Saxon Baker was a huge got a huge WTF from me) and the car accident, I thought this episode was a bit of a snooze compared to the ones before it. I guess it's because the only new piece of information we have is that Saxon Baker isn't Jane's rapist, which I think most of us had guessed anyway. Other than that, we got confirmation that Celeste is still in an abusive marriage, Amabella is still being attacked by an unknown kid, her parents still blame Ziggy for it, Jane still doesn't know the identity of her rapist, and Madeline's marriage is still on the rocks. There were maybe some hints that other people might suspect Madeline's affair with Joseph (Ed, Joseph's wife, the woman at the café who saw Madeline and Joseph leave), but I enjoy this show most when we get to see the social aggression play out among the parents, and that scene between the Kleins and Jane in the principal's office wasn't enough for me.

Edited March 20, 2017 by Hera
Fixing a typo

[Ms Blue Jay]

1 hour ago, scrb said:

First of all the population of the US is 360 million so 36% of the population would be over 120 million.

I went back to correct my post and add the source. 

Ed said something like "Perry Wright is going to let Celeste do this?"  He mentioned Perry by full name.

I read that as maybe Celeste doesn't exactly go independently to do risky things without Perry.  A hint that people see Perry as dominating, sure.  

[CofCinci]

2 hours ago, susannot said:

There are a couple of therapists commenting on this thread.  Do they ever arrange to be paid quietly under the table in an abuse situation.  If Perry finds out that Celeste has been seeing the therapist alone, that could spark the final explosion.  If a box of Legos can instigate a savage beating, imagine his reaction to secret therapy sessions.

Perry and Celeste have resources.  This therapist is most likely cash only, bills discretely (invoice might read "Last Name & Associates" or "Last Name Consulting", etc) and does not accept insurance.  I'm sure it is easy for Celeste to pay $200-$400/hour cash without Perry catching on given their wealth and lifestyle.  Also, this therapist, given her wealthy client base, may use a retainer-type system (like with attorneys) and their sessions have been prepaid.

If Perry and Celeste were a middle class couple and needed to use their health insurance to afford therapy, it would be very difficult for the therapist to conceal the session.  The therapist is paid partly by your copayment and then later when therapist bills to your insurance company for reimbursement.  When I was private practice, I'd receive $25 copay from the client after our session and the insurance company (weeks/months later) would reimburse me an additional $47.00 for the session.  There could be some wiggle room and creative accounting/billing if the therapist desired -- but then that could risk their position on the insurance panel (insurance company allows for n amount of therapists doing n therapy in n population; get removed from the panel and then you can no longer accept/reimburse that insurance).

Now, if Perry and Celeste were low-income and needed to use a community mental health-type agency, she is fucked.  There is no way to creatively conceal the services received.  Therapists at these agencies/organizations have productivity measures.  It is often a struggle to make productivity given the population (no shows).  Not billing for Celeste's session could cost the therapist his/her job because if you don't make productivity, you are fired.

[Penman61]

In the "Push Comes to Shove" (episode 4) forum, I posted that I noticed that in one of Jane's rapist flashbacks, we had a pretty good shot of the rapist's silhouette in profile, and the only thing distinguishing I saw was a "snub-nose," not unlike Matthew McConnaughey's...

So tonight in "Once Bitten," we finally get a good look at Saxon Banks (actor Stephen Graybill), and sure enough...

I do see how Jane's reaction could be read either way--Saxon was/wasn't her rapist--but this is a lot of coincidence (and I would say deliberate misdirection) now for Jane's rapist NOT to be Saxon.  YMMV.

[Giesela]

4 hours ago, iMonrey said:

She does have doubts, because she knows Ziggy's father is a violent rapist and worries her son may be a "bad seed."

OMG that was such  great old movie, at least in my Jr. high school age memory.  

I have been thinking along the lines of whether this is a bit about nature vs. nuture.  Ziggy, the sweetest child is the seed of a violent man, the twins, if the abusers, well I guess they are getting it from both ends if they have indeed been aware of the violence.  And I have to think they have. 

[Blissfool]

13 hours ago, Juliegirlj said:

 

Could Joseph be the one that dies by Maddie's hand? To protect her intact family? I have a feeling he is not going to drop things with her and she wants it to all go away. 

 

Spoiler

I don't think so, only because others have mentioned that in the book Maddy does not have an affair.

12 hours ago, hoodooznoodooz said:

Yeah, this bugged me, too. In maybe the first episide also, she cannot get them to stop playing and get in the car to go to school for orientation, I think.  She pleads with Perry to help her. He offers a dollar to whoever gets in the car first.  In my opinion, she's basically suggesting to the twins that it's okay to only take the dad seriously.

Yeah, as Perry told her in this episode "you're raising them to be spoiled brats." She's surprisingly lenient with the boys. 

Something I noticed in that Lego scene: when she first hears Perry coming in the room she quickly closes the laptop and a book she had on the table. Whatcha hiding, Celeste? Besides all the bruises, of course.

 

Dead rodent: who were the kids poking at it. The boy was not familiar. Was that supposed to be Amabella because she wasn't dressed in something Amabella would wear (faded jeans and a hoodie). And if it WAS Amabella, maybe SHE killed the rodent after it bit her.

[Keepitmoving]

Quote

Yeah it's not realistic that Jane, without steady full-time work, would be able to afford to live among people with multimillion dollar oceanfront homes.

I still think the area/town would be out of her price range, but I would like to note that IMO Jane's house is nothing like the houses the other women live in.  At one point, before I saw the outside of it, I thought for a minute it was a trailer.  It looks like her room is actually in the living room. I could have sworn it looked like it was a pull out bed the first time I saw her house, albeit in the dark. But she did look like she pulled the couch out and into her bed.  I gotta say, I really can't get what's going on in her house exactly but I do know it's nothing like the wealthy looking houses that the other women live in. 

Quote

Remember, the audience for the show is HBO so they're going to show gorgeous homes, because the audience is familiar with that kind of wealth or aspires to.

I don't know about this,  because IMO, HBO doesn't, because they don't have to, portray things in their programming just to cater to a particular audiences' delusions and/or aspirations.  They aren't desperate for advertising dollars like NBC, ABC, CBS etc...so  they don't have to be phony and they can tell it like it is. There's been programming on HBO where the folks are poor and living like the poor and it's not pretty, nor aspirational, it's just real life.

Edited March 20, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[mochamajesty]

You know, I wonder how much Celeste's son saw when he walked into the room while Perry was choking her last week. How long was he standing there?

[mochamajesty]

9 minutes ago, Keepitmoving said:

I still think the area/town would be out of her price range, but I would like to note that IMO Jane's house is nothing like the houses the other women live in.  At one point, before I saw the outside of it, I thought for a minute it was a trailer.  It looks like her room is actually in the living room. I could have sworn it looked like it was a pull out bed the first time I saw her house, albeit in the dark. But she did look like she pulled the couch out and into her bed.  I gotta say, I really can't get what's going on in her house exactly but I do know it's nothing like the wealthy looking houses that the other women live in. 

I don't know about this,  because IMO, HBO doesn't, because they don't have to, portray things in their programming just to cater to a particular audiences' delusions and/or aspirations.  They aren't desperate for advertising dollars like NBC, ABC, CBS etc...so  they don't have to be phony and they can tell it like it is. There's been programming on HBO where the folks are poor and living like the poor and it's not pretty, nor aspirational, it's just real life.

Off the top of my head are

The Wire

The Corner

Many consider The Wire one of the best shows ever made.

Edited March 20, 2017 by mochamajesty

[Auntie Anxiety]

9 minutes ago, mochamajesty said:

You know, I wonder how much Celeste's son saw when he walked into the room while Perry was choking her last week. How long was he standing there?

Probably much more than Celeste realizes. Kids are very intuitive and the twins certainly have ears. Kids pick up on stuff. Ziggy even told the child psych about how his mother gets a certain look on her face when he asks her about his father. And in families like the Wrights, wherein something is "wrong," the kid (or kids) carry it in their own behavior. Sometimes it's like the kid behaves badly, maybe in the hopes of distracting the parents and making them have to band together to deal with the kid. It's classic that the child ends up expressing the problems that are supposedly hidden or private. 

MochaMajesty, The Wire--one of the most incredible shows ever produced.

Edited March 20, 2017 by Auntie Anxiety

[Guest]

23 minutes ago, Penman61 said:

In the "Push Comes to Shove" (episode 4) forum, I posted that I noticed that in one of Jane's rapist flashbacks, we had a pretty good shot of the rapist's silhouette in profile, and the only thing distinguishing I saw was a "snub-nose," not unlike Matthew McConnaughey's...

So tonight in "Once Bitten," we finally get a good look at Saxon Banks (actor Stephen Graybill), and sure enough...

I do see how Jane's reaction could be read either way--Saxon was/wasn't her rapist--but this is a lot of coincidence (and I would say deliberate misdirection) now for Jane's rapist NOT to be Saxon.  YMMV.

 

I think it's deliberate misdirection. 

Jane's house price in real life is like $500k vs. $15M for Maddie's, so 1/30th of the cost.  That's from an article in the media thread.  We know she's a single mother with her own bookkeeping company but we don't know how much money she has overall from all sources, so I'm ok with it.  If they put her in a beach house without explanation, I'd balk.

I do think shows make people richer and prettier when possible because it's just better viewing but here, the women being rich is part of the story, I think. 

That said, I hate that Renata is a ball buster.  It'd be nice to see more wildly successful businesswomen who aren't.  But I think that too is part of the story.  Which makes it even more likely a simple nanny cam would find her bully. 

[Penman61]

11 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I think it's deliberate misdirection. 

 

I was being too kind when I called it that:  If TPTB used Stephen Graybill in the rape scene and Jane's rapist turns out to be someone else, it's just plain cheating.

Edited March 20, 2017 by Penman61

[JBC344]

But isn't the point that Jane's memory is specifically hazy that night.  Which is why she can't identify if it is Saxon or someone who looks like him.  Considering the only other man that we have been introduced to who resembles Saxon is Perry.  Like others have mentioned when there is a mystery element they will usually hire a separate actor for flashback scenes so as not to give away the reveal.

[tennisgurl]

I think my favorite scene was Ziggy hanging out in the kitchen with Maddy and her family. He actually got to be happy for a few minutes! That was so sweet. I really hope Ziggy isn't the one who is biting/beating on Amabella. I don't think its him though. I'm still convinced that its one of Celeste and Perry's kids that's doing it. He is repeating the behavior that he sees from his dad. I hope that Celeste can leave, take the kids, and get them into therapy ASAP. I know Celeste is in denial, but now its hurting the kids as well as her, even if its not in the "traditional" way abusers hurt kids. Its just perpetuating a cycle of violence. I hope she can see that.

I agree that Nicole Kidman is just doing a great job here. That scene in the therapists office had better be on her Emmy role, she just had so much going on. I think her denial comes from both not wanting to believe that Perry, a man she really does love, is an abusive monster, and she REALLY doesn't want to think of herself as a victim. She thinks of domestic abuse victims, I think, the way lots of people do. A weak, cowering figure that exists to be pitied for being so stupid to have found an abusive man, and too pathetic to leave. There are plenty of people who refuse to see themselves as The Victim, because, to them, its means being some fragile broken thing without agency or power. Its sad, but its how some people feel. Celeste tries to insist that her and Perry are both causing these problems, when that's clearly not the case.

I'm pretty sure Ed and the wife of the director guy at least suspect something is going on, even if they don't actually know for sure. Really, knowing the guy is married (to a woman who seemed perfectly nice in the brief time we saw her) just makes the whole affair worse. When Ed was running towards the hospital, she seemed to be honestly scared for her. I think he loves her more than she loves him. Honestly, maybe the two of them should be in marriage counseling. They could probably actually benefit from it, being as neither of them are abusive assholes from what we have seen so far.

GREAT idea there Jane. Get high, drive to the place where your possible rapist works, bring your gun, and confront him at his office. Then, when you realize its not him, drive around like a crazy person in the middle of a city. Great call, Jane. This will be a SUPER fan conversation to have with Ziggy. I cut her a lot of slack, but still.

I admit it, I burst out laughing at Maddy's dream when she imagined Renetta shoving her off the cliff with Avenue Q puppets! It looked like the muppets were staging an attack!

Edited March 21, 2017 by tennisgurl

[stanleyk]

14 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I'm still convinced that its one of Celeste and Perry's kids that's doing it. He is repeating the behavior that he sees from his dad. I hope that Celeste can leave, take the kids, and get them into therapy ASAP. I know Celeste is in denial, but now its hurting the kids as well as her, even if its not in the "traditional" way abusers hurt kids. Its just perpetuating a cycle of violence. I hope she can see that.

I have to think that they'll bring those two stories together in the conclusion: that one or both of the twins will be the one hurting Amabella, that he will give as a reason the fact that he likes her so he's just doing what he sees his dad to his mom, and that the realization that Perry's abuse of Celeste has such a profound impact on the kids will prompt Celeste to really confront their issues and get away from Perry. Of course I will probably be totally wrong, but it would seem like a bit of a cop-out at this point if they introduced a new or minor character as a major actor in either of the mysteries in the show. 

[Mabinogia]

20 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

GREAT idea there Jane. Get high, drive to the place where your possible rapist works, bring your gun, and confront him at his office. Then, when you realize its not him, drive around like a crazy person in the middle of a city. Great call, Jane. This will be a SUPER fan conversation to have with Ziggy. I cut her a lot of slack, but still.

All I could think was what is going to happen to Ziggy after she gets herself killed by being a dumbass. Or he gets taken away because a gun toting, pot smoking nutcase is seen as an unfit mother. Poor Ziggy. I just want to hug that poor child. He knows something is wrong with his mother, he knows she is keeping secrets from him and I think he knows it has to do with his father. I wonder who he really thinks his father is. I guarantee he knows his father is a bad man but he's too young, I think, to know about rape, I hope, but I wonder just what he thinks his dad did to make Jane the way she is about him.

I feel bad for Ed. I do feel like he loves Maddie way more than she loves him, or, not loves, he desires her more than she desires him. That attempted sex scene was so painfully awkward. lol I think she's not really over Nathan leaving her. Not that she's still in love with him or wants him back, but that she hasn't gotten over being hurt by him. Maybe she is afraid Ed is going to hurt her too so she kind of keeps him at arms length. IDK, I'm not Dr. Calamity Jane. lol

At the moment Bonnie and Nathan seem to have the best marriage. Dr. Calamity Jane should be making bank in that town.

[Keepitmoving]

2 hours ago, mochamajesty said:

Off the top of my head are

The Wire

The Corner

Many consider The Wire one of the best shows ever made.

And the Wire's ratings were pretty low for all those seasons and HBO didn't care. They don't necessarily let ratings or any one thing in particular  influence their programming and I love them for it.  I don't know exactly what formula they are running that network on but 9 times out of 10 it works for this viewer.

I read that the ratings on this show weren't what they wanted, but that doesn't mean the show is going anywhere. I like it, a lot.

Quote

I'm still convinced that its one of Celeste and Perry's kids that's doing it. He is repeating the behavior that he sees from his dad. I hope that Celeste can leave, take the kids, and get them into therapy ASAP. I know Celeste is in denial, but now its hurting the kids as well as her, even if its not in the "traditional" way abusers hurt kids. Its just perpetuating a cycle of violence. I hope she can see that.

Speaking of dad's behavior, was it just me, or did Perry not bite Celeste between her upper breast neck area when they were sexing it up on the kitchen counter? Did I not see that? Because I know those teeth when I see them, I watched them season after season on True Blood, LOL. I know I saw his teeth take a nip, I know it and it ties in with Amabella getting bit, it's all tied up in there and in the overall title of this episode.

[annlaw78]

4 hours ago, nara said:

I think that's possibly a real explanation of why she is able to live in that neighborhood and do nothing but run and drink coffee all day.

Ha!  Seriously, though, she comes across as trust-finder or parents-give-allowance, rather than struggling single mom.

[riverheightsnancy]

1 hour ago, CofCinci said:

Perry and Celeste have resources.  This therapist is most likely cash only, bills discretely (invoice might read "Last Name & Associates" or "Last Name Consulting", etc) and does not accept insurance.  I'm sure it is easy for Celeste to pay $200-$400/hour cash without Perry catching on given their wealth and lifestyle.  Also, this therapist, given her wealthy client base, may use a retainer-type system (like with attorneys) and their sessions have been prepaid.

If Perry and Celeste were a middle class couple and needed to use their health insurance to afford therapy, it would be very difficult for the therapist to conceal the session.  The therapist is paid partly by your copayment and then later when therapist bills to your insurance company for reimbursement.  When I was private practice, I'd receive $25 copay from the client after our session and the insurance company (weeks/months later) would reimburse me an additional $47.00 for the session.  There could be some wiggle room and creative accounting/billing if the therapist desired -- but then that could risk their position on the insurance panel (insurance company allows for n amount of therapists doing n therapy in n population; get removed from the panel and then you can no longer accept/reimburse that insurance).

Now, if Perry and Celeste were low-income and needed to use a community mental health-type agency, she is fucked.  There is no way to creatively conceal the services received.  Therapists at these agencies/organizations have productivity measures.  It is often a struggle to make productivity given the population (no shows).  Not billing for Celeste's session could cost the therapist his/her job because if you don't make productivity, you are fired.

Just to chime in on what COFCINCI said.  Even if the people are wealthy, they may want to use their insurance because you have it and you pay for it (via your deduction from your pay) and Perry does work, it is likely that he has insurance. And if you have a job that gives it to you 100% free, why would anyone pay cash, if you can use your insurance!  I live in an affluent area (I am not affluent, but our county is considered one of the most expensive in the US-based on some such data) and people want to use their insurance. Most of the psychiatrists and clinical psychologists and clinical social workers that I have worked with all take something because they tend to be affiliated with a hospital (especially the psychiatrist) and they take whatever the hospital takes because of their privileges. I know that it is much easier to be paid in cash, but if I have insurance to cover some of it, I would want to use it, unless (as stated by COFCINCI), I am trying to hide the session. The therapist will know how to do that, especially if it is cash. When I got my training, a lot of discussion was placed on our case notes and the like especially when working with domestic violence victims and how to protect the information from being used against the client if the abuser trys to use it against the victim in court.  One last note: in my community, we actually have free counseling and services for domestic violence victims at a special organization for this issue  (did my internship there) and it is free. It is a community outreach effort and even in an affluent area, it is needed because there are a lot of people who are not wealthy (or cannot be seen going to a "regular" therapist, and there is also a population of immigrant workers who do the landscaping, housekeeping of the wealthy and get no benefits. They need those services as well. One thing about this place, was tight security. You had to be buzzed in and would have to present yourself in a bullet proof hallway. This was necessary, otherwise, no one would come there, They needed to feel safe. Like we have heard, a high percentage of women are murdered when they try to leave the abuser. The organization I trained at, would help women (and men) with counseling, but also making an escape plan and how to implement it. (saving, hiding money, having a bug-out bag, a separate phone, etc...), for the day they leave. They would also have one of our male volunteers, go to the court with the victim for the court days and to get the restraining order. We also had a Pro Bono attorney to help as well. It is complicated to get out and needs a coordinated effort on many fronts (we also had safe houses to put up a person and children while they hid from the abuser). 

[Irlandesa]

9 hours ago, CofCinci said:

Isn't it a little too obvious for Perry to be the rapist?  That's no surprise.  No HBO finale twist. 

Damned if you do. Damned if you don't.

2 hours ago, Penman61 said:

In the "Push Comes to Shove" (episode 4) forum, I posted that I noticed that in one of Jane's rapist flashbacks, we had a pretty good shot of the rapist's silhouette in profile, and the only thing distinguishing I saw was a "snub-nose," not unlike Matthew McConnaughey's...

So tonight in "Once Bitten," we finally get a good look at Saxon Banks (actor Stephen Graybill), and sure enough...

I do see how Jane's reaction could be read either way--Saxon was/wasn't her rapist--but this is a lot of coincidence (and I would say deliberate misdirection) now for Jane's rapist NOT to be Saxon.  YMMV.

So this is the tricky part about this mystery.  Heck, it's the tricky part about any "who done it?"

The pro of it being Perry including showing us that his violent temper aligns with Jane's experience with her rapist.  Therefore, the show has built a solid foundation to make this reveal believable.  The con is that because it is supported by his behavior, many of us have guessed it and it won't feel like a surprise.  Also, it'd be a coincidence.

The pro of it being another one of the husband is that it'd be a shocking twist sure to make our jaws drop.  The con would be that the show hasn't really hinted that any of these guys share that same undercurrent of violence.  It'd be a twist that might feel cheap because of that. And it'd still be a huge coincidence.

The pro of it being none of these guys is that it'd feel more realistic that Jane's rapist isn't affiliated with any of the other women. The con is that there isn't some big reveal associated with it.  Even if we've guessed it with Perry and he's not a surprise, there would still be some emotional fallout to be mined from Celeste, Madeline...etc. finding out the depths of his sadism that wouldn't be found with any other option.

But as for the profile, a lot of these flashes have been flashbacks mixed with fantasies.  And didn't she have this "flashback" after she had seen the picture in the computer?  That's why I think it was telling when she sniffed this guy.  She knows she's not sure what he looks like but she realized she vividly remembers his smell.

2 hours ago, Auntie Anxiety said:

Probably much more than Celeste realizes. Kids are very intuitive and the twins certainly have ears. Kids pick up on stuff. Ziggy even told the child psych about how his mother gets a certain look on her face when he asks her about his father.

Yep.  In fact, in this episode, we also had Chloe coming in on Madeline and Ed and their attempt at kitchen sex.  They pretended like nothing was going on but as Chloe left, she told them to get back to whatever they were pretending they weren't doing.

1 hour ago, stanleyk said:

I have to think that they'll bring those two stories together in the conclusion: that one or both of the twins will be the one hurting Amabella, that he will give as a reason the fact that he likes her so he's just doing what he sees his dad to his mom, and that the realization that Perry's abuse of Celeste has such a profound impact on the kids will prompt Celeste to really confront their issues and get away from Perry.

I wonder if this is the case too.  It might also explain why she doesn't know who is doing it.  Maybe she can't tell the twins apart.  Or they're both doing it and she's afraid of being ganged up on.

Edited March 21, 2017 by Irlandesa

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Penman61 said:

I was being too kind when I called it that:  If TPTB used Stephen Graybill in the rape scene and Jane's rapist turns out to be someone else, it's just plain cheating.

I understand your frustration but it doesn't bother me so much since I do feel like I see this on tv pretty regularly.  At least here they bothered picking an actor who roughly resembles the real perp, if it's Perry.  They don't always.  

What annoys me is I wanted this to be a twisty whodunnit, not 'the obvious guy did it, and his obvious kids did the other thing', which I think is what's going to happen.   But who knows.  And even without the whodunnit aspect, I suppose it's been an entertaining story.  But I think it'd would've worked better as a movie if there are not going to be twists.  Seven hours is a long commitment for a little character study of three moms.  I'm guessing you could read the book twice in that time.  

[Penman61]

Jane's rapist is the secondary whodunit (the primary whodunit is who are the murdered/murderer from the series' very first seconds), so having him be Not A Husband makes sense to me.   

Actually, five eps in (out of 7?), I don't think the rapist was really a whodunit at all.  His identity was presented as unclear because Jane was unclear who he was.  Her story is not mainly about Which Hot Monterey Husband Raped Me? but what that rape has done and is doing to her.

In any case, my money is on Saxon as being Jane's rapist.  (Not that it's a whodunit, lol...)

Edited March 21, 2017 by Penman61

[Teddybear]

I found the many flashbacks quite distracting this episode for some reason.  The one where Reese went down the cliff to look for who-knows-what and she turned around and there were clown puppets, I think I screamed and woke the dog.  

Quote

The volume of the music in this show needs to be dialed back.  Yes, music adds to the emotion/pacing of a show, but when it is blaring at "11" it takes me out of the story while I scramble for the remote to turn it down.

You reminded me of something that REALLY bothered me was the dead silence--no sound at all-- after the accident.  For what seemed like a full minute of complete silence, it was just kind of jarring to me.   

Like others, I am getting sick of all the running.  I've never seen Shailene in anything....is she normally this blah?  Can't tell if it's the character or her.  

Nicole is amazing in The Others--I think that's when I noticed what a wonderful actress she is.  I was bored and watched the incredibly long credits at the end of this episode and noticed she has a dialect coach.  She seems to speak in both an Australian and American accent, so I'm not sure what the coach is suggesting.  

[pbutler111]

4 hours ago, stanleyk said:

One interesting throwaway line that I haven't seen mentioned yet is during the conversation between Madeline and Ed about confronting the suspected rapist. Maddy says Celeste is coming and Ed says something disbelieving like "Like Perry would allow Celeste to go?"

That line says to me that the controlling nature of the Perry/Celeste relationship is not lost on outsiders to that relationship. So while Celeste's friends may not know the extent of the violence and abuse, they do know on some level about the control issues. Which also gives the lie to Celeste's insistence that the twins don't see anything. When people who rarely see you (have we even seen Ed interact with Perry or Celeste?) sense there is a weird control dynamic in your relationship, you can bet people living in the house with you sense that and much more. Celeste may think her concealer and her delusions about "passion" are fooling everyone, but I bet more people than just Dr. Calamity Jane see through that.

I get what you're saying, but Ed didn't say it like that. He didn't make the comment in the context of being surprised that Perry would let Celeste do something because Perry is controlling. He made the comment in the context of he, Ed, not wanting to let Maddy go on this trip, and being surprised that her friend's husband would feel differently.  So he was basically saying, "I'm definitely not okay with this, but you're telling me Perry is?"  

1 hour ago, Keepitmoving said:

And the Wire's ratings were pretty low for all those seasons and HBO didn't care. They don't necessarily let ratings or any one thing in particular  influence their programming and I love them for it.  I don't know exactly what formula they are running that network on but 9 times out of 10 it works for this viewer.

I read that the ratings on this show weren't what they wanted, but that doesn't mean the show is going anywhere. I like it, a lot.

I don't think this was ever meant to be anything but a one-off mini-series adaptation of the book.  It doesn't really lend itself to being a continuing series, and I don't think that's what they wanted to do.

[Keepitmoving]

Quote

Like others, I am getting sick of all the running.  I've never seen Shailene in anything....is she normally this blah?  Can't tell if it's the character or her.  

She does have a monotone way of speaking,  she's been in that Divergent series, and she is the lead of that series, she's the face of it. But her voice in that series from what I've seen is the same. I first saw her when she was a teen in this movie with George Clooney, called The Descendants, she played his daughter. I think the movie won an Oscar for best screenplay. Her voice is always the same for the most part. But her voice is working for me in this role, I'm good on the way she's playing Jane. I like the way she comes off, including her mannerisms and speaking voice, juxtaposed to the other women in this community.

Edited March 21, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, Irlandesa said:

The pro of it being another one of the husband is that it'd be a shocking twist sure to make our jaws drop.  The con would be that the show hasn't really hinted that any of these guys share that same undercurrent of violence.  It'd be a twist that might feel cheap because of that. And it'd still be a huge coincidence.

I wonder if this is the case too.  It might also explain why she doesn't know who is doing it.  Maybe she can't tell the twins apart.  Or they're both doing it and she's afraid of being ganged up on.

 

I think Madeline's ex (can't remember his name) has shown a strong undercurrent of violence, and though it's directed primarily at Maddy, a general disregard for women.

I think the idea that it might be twins, and Amabella can't tell them apart is interesting.

36 minutes ago, Teddybear said:

You reminded me of something that REALLY bothered me was the dead silence--no sound at all-- after the accident.  For what seemed like a full minute of complete silence, it was just kind of jarring to me. 

It felt, to me, exactly the way it was the one time I had an accident and totaled the car. There was this period of stillness before I recovered sufficiently from the shock to take stock of my surroundings (I wasn't hurt - thank goodness). So I found it particularly effective.

As for Shailene, I've seen her in both The Descendants and Divergent, and she didn't do much for me in either of those movies. She seemed pretty much the same, as I recall, as she is here. A little snarkier in The Descendants, maybe. It works for some roles. Not all actors are particularly versatile. Unfortunately, she's up against some big guns in the acting department.

Edited March 21, 2017 by Clanstarling

[Gem 10]

5 hours ago, susannot said:

And the show wouldn't be getting half the attention. I hate to say it, but many of us love (well speaking for myself) watching glossy, pretty people with fabulous wardrobes, in their multimillion dollar oceanfront mansions, screw up their secretly dysfunctional lives.

Yes, and money or not .. In the end, we all bleed the same.

[stagmania]

3 hours ago, mochamajesty said:

You know, I wonder how much Celeste's son saw when he walked into the room while Perry was choking her last week. How long was he standing there?

I keep thinking about that thing in the second episode with Ziggy trying to kiss Amabella, and whether the twins might be doing the same and mixing it with violence, just like they've seen their parents do. Kids pick up on far more than adults realize. 

2 hours ago, stanleyk said:

I have to think that they'll bring those two stories together in the conclusion: that one or both of the twins will be the one hurting Amabella, that he will give as a reason the fact that he likes her so he's just doing what he sees his dad to his mom, and that the realization that Perry's abuse of Celeste has such a profound impact on the kids will prompt Celeste to really confront their issues and get away from Perry. Of course I will probably be totally wrong, but it would seem like a bit of a cop-out at this point if they introduced a new or minor character as a major actor in either of the mysteries in the show. 

Yep, at this point if this doesn't all come back to Perry, it's either someone we know who doesn't make any sense as a culprit, or a new person. I prefer stories to make sense, even if that means I don't get my mind blown. But there's so much to come together still, I think they can surprise us without having an out of left field rapist or murder victim. The shock will be in the how, rather than the what.

[Irlandesa]

42 minutes ago, pbutler111 said:

I don't think this was ever meant to be anything but a one-off mini-series adaptation of the book.  It doesn't really lend itself to being a continuing series, and I don't think that's what they wanted to do.

I agree.  I did read that they're trying to get the rights to some of Liane's other books so if HBO likes what this miniseries is doing, then I could see them do another mini-series with a different story.

[Hera]

33 minutes ago, pbutler111 said:

2 hours ago, Keepitmoving said:

And the Wire's ratings were pretty low for all those seasons and HBO didn't care. They don't necessarily let ratings or any one thing in particular  influence their programming and I love them for it.  I don't know exactly what formula they are running that network on but 9 times out of 10 it works for this viewer.

I read that the ratings on this show weren't what they wanted, but that doesn't mean the show is going anywhere. I like it, a lot.

I don't think this was ever meant to be anything but a one-off mini-series adaptation of the book.  It doesn't really lend itself to being a continuing series, and I don't think that's what they wanted to do.

Given the number of people on this program who normally do films and are therefore unlikely to want to commit to doing a TV show (pretty much all of the moms), I can't imagine that they'd be able to make another season of this show, even if the producers wanted to—at least not without recasting the major roles or revamping the show entirely so that it's no longer about them. I suppose they could try what True Detective did and have a second series in a completely different setting, but given how that worked out for True Detective, I can't see them rushing to do that. either. No, I think they'll keep this as a stand-alone series and hope to make money off of it over time: DVD sales, people finding it on HBO's streaming service, and re-airing it every now and again.

[Stella]

1 minute ago, stagmania said:

Yep, at this point if this doesn't all come back to Perry, it's either someone we know who doesn't make any sense as a culprit, or a new person. I prefer stories to make sense, even if that means I don't get my mind blown. But there's so much to come together still, I think they can surprise us without having an out of left field rapist or murder victim. The shock will be in the how, rather than the what.

Yes I agree with you here. We've seen that every character and every relationship has some degree of turmoil but if it turns out that someone other than Perry is killed or was the killer the narrative will feel compromised. The show has done a good job of casting suspicion on basically all the main characters but only Perry truly fits the larger narrative. And I believe that one or both of the twins is definitely mirroring the parent's relationship with Amabella. And I thought it was interesting that Gordon tells Amabella that she needs to reveal this bully/tormentor because it wouldn't be right if another person is also being hurt. Celeste protects Perry yet he likely raped Jane and possibly others.

[Cardie]

2 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

All I could think was what is going to happen to Ziggy after she gets herself killed by being a dumbass.

Maddie would 100% adopt him. He does have grandparents though, even if Jane is estranged from them(?)

[chocolatine]

I can totally relate to poor Amabella staying quiet. She's definitely being intimidated by whoever is hurting her, and *also* by her deranged mother. She's obviously a sensitive child, which Renata and Gordon don't know how to deal with. Assuming Ziggy is innocent, she probably feels guilty for getting him into trouble, so she's decided not to say anything from now on.

As far as Jane's finances, she seems to be living very modestly. She and Ziggy live in what must be a one-bedroom rented bungalow, since she sleeps on the pull-out sofa in the living room. She drives an old Prius and all her clothes look like they're from Old Navy.

If anything, I find Maddie's and Ed's living situation a lot less plausible. Their gorgeous beachfront home is worth millions, and Maddie drives a brand-new SUV and is always wearing designer clothing (her outfit in the premiere was Dolce & Gabbana). He's working as a freelance web designer, and she must be making a pittance working part-time for the community theatre. A couple in their situation would barely be able to afford a two-bedroom condo in that area.

Edited March 21, 2017 by chocolatine

[KaleyFirefly]

15 hours ago, teddysmom said:

I have a friend who is trying to get up the nerve to get out of a loveless marriage, no abuse or anything, just realization her husband has no desire to be a father to her daughter , or a husband. He only wants to work come home late and get drunk.  She blames herself for him being a drunk. 

Actually, tell your friend that it IS abuse -- ignoring your wife and child to get drunk is emotional abuse and neglect.

[JBC344]

2 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

I agree.  I did read that they're trying to get the rights to some of Liane's other books so if HBO likes what this miniseries is doing, then I could see them do another mini-series with a different story.

I think it would be interesting if they did this as an anthology series with taking this same cast and having them do another adaptation of Liane's other books.  I wouldn't mind seeing this same cast tackle The Husband's Secret.

[dd21dd21]

Couple Random Thoughts

On one hand I don't blame Renata for acting the way she did this episode, but on the other it seemed more about.....herself? then the well being on her daughter (not saying she doesn't care)

I did like that quick scene of Nathan and Bonnie on the couch. He's watching football and couldn't be bothered  with Maddie's craziness lol

and  I do think Perry being the rapist and one of the twins being the culprit will end up happening and are kind of obvious at this point (having Jane's rapist be anybody else with 2 episodes left would be pointless) but the murder is still the  "omg" moment for the viewers

[KaleyFirefly]

6 minutes ago, JBC344 said:

I think it would be interesting if they did this as an anthology series with taking this same cast and having them do another adaptation of Liane's other books.  I wouldn't mind seeing this same cast tackle The Husband's Secret.

Yes...Madeleine and Cecilia are almost the same character.

[ChelleGame]

On 3/19/2017 at 6:55 PM, Keepitmoving said:

Also, I'd be shocked if Perry didn't turn out to be Jane's rapist and that his boys didn't turn out to be Amabella's abusers. Yeah, that's some disturbing stuff going on in that household and no way are those boys unaware, that's what Celeste would like to think. Nope, they see it and they know, and they are acting it out with Amabella; just two chips off the old block.

So agree.

[jeansheridan]

I think the therapist needs an Emmy.  And Kelly's writing in those scenes is wonderful.  There are no camera tricks.  Just two women dancing around the truth.  Watching the therapist try to break through to her, to find a way that will make sense to Celeste is wonderful.  

I dig some of the music and camera work.  It does add a tension to the show the book lacked.  But I hate almost all the music and I haven't recognized one song.  It is all ugly and discordant.  

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Quote

If the men and women here were working-class people, maybe working retail and factory jobs, you wouldn't have the same kind of school drama and the domestic abuse story line would be more gritty and she wouldn't be able to hire the bruises.

In addition to the aforementioned shows (particularly The Wire, which was really good), Shameless is a Showtime drama about working class people and they've managed to wring seven (going on eight) seasons of drama about a family that isn't anywhere near rich.

9 hours ago, scrb said:

First of all the population of the US is 360 million so 36% of the population would be over 120 million.

Secondly, the hit HBO shows hit maybe 10 million viewers per episode or that's what The Sopranos used to get.  I presume Game of Thrones gets more than that now but I doubt it's anywhere near 50 million.

When Sopranos was getting so much hype, some CBS executive wondered why they couldn't produce shows of such quality on broadcast TV.  However, to put it in perspective, the top CBS shows outdrew the most popular HBO shows by a huge margin, because price of HBO is a barrier for many people.

The Got S6 finale hit a series high for ratings: 8.9 million viewers.

Keep in mind that's just Nielsen ratings, not across all platforms. According to this article, GoT's fourth season already surpassed the Sopranos (and
the GoT S4 season premiere was the first HBO episode to surprass the Sopranos series finale):

Quote

With two episodes remaining in the fourth season, Thrones has an average gross audience of 18.4 million viewers across all platforms. That surpasses the previous record set by the 2002 peak season of The Sopranos, which had an average gross audience of 18.2 million viewers per episode. Last season of Thrones had an average gross audience of 14.4 million viewers per episode. The news comes as Thrones has set several recent ratings records for its own performance this season.

Over the past year, many suspected that Thrones had surpassed Sopranos in popularity. But HBO analysists waited until they were able to confirm Thrones‘ victory using the strictest comparison data between the two shows, especially since the pay cable network’s method of measuring ratings has evolved over the years. Also, there have been dramatic changes in the way media is consumed that unavoidably impacts the numbers. The rise of DVR playback helps boost Thrones‘ viewership, and HBO now offers streaming of its shows via HBO Go — methods of watching and counting the audience that were unavailable during the peak of The Sopranos’ reign. But on the other hand, the rise of online piracy has meant that many millions are watching Thrones who are not counted, with the fantasy hit typically ranking as the most illegally downloaded U.S. TV program.

 

9 hours ago, violetr said:

It's more than just a "deep, complicated psychological" issue, though. Many, many women don't leave their abusers because they are literally afraid the guy will kill them if they do. And often, that's precisely what happens. Here's one staggering statistic: up to 75% of abused women who are murdered are killed AFTER they leave their abuser. https://www.theguardian.com/money/us-money-blog/2014/oct/20/domestic-private-violence-women-men-abuse-hbo-ray-rice

On a related note, even if the woman reports and documents the abuse and obtains a restraining order, the police can't do anything until the abuser has violated the restraining order. I remember there was a case when I was in college where a woman left her abusive husband and got a restraining order. The order said he had to stay X amount of feet from her so he stood right in front of her house, just past the distance specified on the restraining order. When she called the police to report that her abusive ex was standing right in front of her house, they told her that legally they couldn't do anything until he actually came closer. They told her to call back if that happened. When the guy finally violated the restraining order and moved past that distance, he broke into the house and killed her.

On top of that, complaints to the police are often not taken seriously enough. There is a murder case that's on trial right now where a girl reported that her ex was stalking her, that he assaulted her, and then stole her keys and broke into her house to watch her sleep. Instead of protecting her, the police charged HER with "having caused wasteful employment of police by making a false report.” He is now on trial for her murder. Patrick Stewart has been very open about his father abusins his mother. He said that when the police came, they would say things like "She must have provoked him," or "Mrs Stewart, it takes two to make a fight."

4 hours ago, Hera said:

Given the number of people on this program who normally do films and are therefore unlikely to want to commit to doing a TV show (pretty much all of the moms), I can't imagine that they'd be able to make another season of this show, even if the producers wanted to—at least not without recasting the major roles or revamping the show entirely so that it's no longer about them. I suppose they could try what True Detective did and have a second series in a completely different setting, but given how that worked out for True Detective, I can't see them rushing to do that. either. No, I think they'll keep this as a stand-alone series and hope to make money off of it over time: DVD sales, people finding it on HBO's streaming service, and re-airing it every now and again.

I think they'll keep this a stand alone mini series, but keep in mind that if the producers wanted to make another season, two of the actresses who are mothers are also executive producers (Reese and Nicole) so they would already have two of the main characters if that's what they really wanted to do. I don't think they will try to do a second season, mostly because there is no sequel to this book so they would have to come up with an entirely new storyline for S2 from scratch. It could take years before they have a script that they're satisfied with.