S21.E12: The Final Rose/S21.E13: After the Final Rose

[waving feather]

I noticed there was an editing goof.  Vanessa arrived wearing a shiny dark pink lipstick, but when Nick first started talking, it was suddenly light pink. Then when it's her turn to speak, it was the earlier shiny dark pink lipstick. And THEN, halfway through her speech, it was back to that light pink lipstick. Anyone noticed that? That distracted me a lot when they were talking, lol. So probably, Vanessa spoke first, then Nick. But why would they edit it the other way round?

[LennieBriscoe]

catrice2, You actually are familiar with people who worry that

8 hours ago, catrice2 said:

race will be discussed all the time and it won't be any fun. 

I'd pretty much worry about THEM.

[JenE4]

7 hours ago, catrice2 said:

You know, I've never asked her what her response was to them when they expressed these concerns.  Unfortunately we don't get to choose co workers and she has a job where they are always doing "team things," and pretty much have to get along and be with each other all the time..and she is the only minority in the group.  I think she started watching the Bachelor with one of them some years ago and it gives them something to talk about at the water cooler. 

Rachel's response to "I'm gonna go black, and I'll never go back!" was to laugh and smile and say, "Okay. Okay. I like that. I like that." Of course my response to him on my TV was, "Oh. My. God. You did NOT just say that!" And to Rachel, "You do not like that!!" All of the guys were awkward, but this guy was the worst! Not only did he say that, but then he didn't know what else to do. The guy before him turned to the audience and asked them to take their first picture together as his gimmick. So then Mr. Never Go Back also grabbed Rachel and posed for a picture because I guess he thought that's what he was supposed to do? Anyway, if you missed him, you'd be able to spot him in the crowd when the season starts because he's like 7 feet tall, skinny white (obviously) dude.

[Primetimer]

And by that, we mean...hooray, he finally chose a (potential) wife!

View the full article

[Zung Li]

Nick and Vanessa aren't worth commenting on. I'm over them and ready to move on- like Rachel. The fuck off my TV you two.

I loved Rachel's guy who danced with her- the one from Baltimore. He was cute and had personality. That had to be hard coming out live to meet her and he was able to do it without making an ass out of himself (I'm looking at you, white boys) Rachel meeting the guys was the only reason I stayed awake to watch. I'm as bitter and jaded as they come but when Rachel is on my screen smiling I'm smiling with her. She makes me happy.

[lids]

I just wonder what happened to the Vanessa her family described on her hometown date. The one who is the kindest person they've ever known, sacrifices for the other person without thinking and gives until she has nothing left. I actually think her family oversold her because they're trying to get rid of her, lol. I understand that they would never label her as an emotional vacuum of suck, but they really mischaracterized her here. I knew the descriptions seemed way over the top, but Vanessa actually seemed to believe those things about herself. She's in for a rude awakening when Bachelor Nation confronts her about how cold she is.

There were so many tells during the ATR. Someone wisely pointed out Vanessa bragging that Nick cooks her breakfast, not knowing he did that for Rachel. But yea, usually Harrison will watch back the proposal with the couple and have them reminisce about how great it was; we got none of that. Vanessa came out by herself and kept talking about her family and her whole country was there in the audience! You would think she'd want to focus on her fiancé now, but nooo. They didn't even fake cuddle like other try-hard couples. The weirdest was that air kiss they gave each out of nowhere. It was like the couple in Whose Afraid of Virginia Wolfe. Just passive aggressive and telegraphing, "I can't even fake liking you."

[bosawks]

I consider this season a success because, well, Finland....

[operalover]

It's amazing what a good weave can do!

[mtlchick]

Well I guess congrats to the local chick.  May your romance be as flimsy as your People magazine cover!

 

Meanwhile, I'm trying to figure out why "I'm going black and never going back" happened. 

[TomGirl]

I thought it was interesting that Nick and Vanessa left before Rachel came out.  They could've just moved down on the couch to make room for her.  It made me wonder more about the supposed blow-up between Rachel and Vanessa that RS reported.  I guess we'll never get to hear about that...

[JudyObscure]

1 hour ago, DEL901 said:

Anyone else surprised when Raven accepted an invitation to Bachelor in Paradise?

I was, but now that you've got me thinking about it I find I'm really looking forward to it.  I realize I honestly have no idea who Raven really is.  When she was going on group dates and seeming to be dignified and above the drama, was she really just thinking about her hair?  Were her dates "fun and carefree," because she is so good natured or is falling down on skates the ultimate to her slapstick sense of humor?  Is her hair really that black or does she dye it to match her name?  Does it remind me of an oil slick because of the amount of product she uses or did I see a baby duck come out of it? Will her foundation survive the tropical heat in Paradise or will she out sweat Josh? Will he even be there?  Will they fall in love with each other? I'm honestly excited to learn all this.

[dleighg]

3 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

Is her hair really that black or does she dye it to match her name?

IMHO very few white chicks have hair that black. Personally I really dislike the look.

[PetuniaP]

Raven's hair looked gorgeous on AFTR. However, she will get none of that on BiP...too sweltering. She needs to cut about 5 inches off and then she'll be good.

Edited March 14, 2017 by PetuniaP

[dleighg]

1 minute ago, PetuniaP said:

Raven's hair looked gorgeous on AFTR. However, she will get none of that on BiP...too sweltering. She needs to cut about 5 inches off and then she'll be good.

I admit I didn't watch it. Got so bored with the final episode I just gave up long before ATFR.

[Gregg247]

Nick's family may hate being on this show for 3 seasons now, but what about in 5 years, when Bella is named "The Bachelorette"?  And Brother Nick can show up and grill her suitors.  Something to (not) look forward to! LOL

I think Vanessa is one of those people who simply MUST control any situation she's in, or else she goes ballistic from panic and frustration.  Her family is probably used to her issues and outbursts, but Nick is going to get tired of it really fast.  Then again, maybe he likes to be dominated by "strong, independent" women.  

Someone above mentioned the "old" Nick, who appeared to be cool and flirty in previous seasons.  This season, he seemed tired and desperate, like he suddenly realized that, at age 36, his expiration date on this franchise has arrived, and he has nothing but a failed professional career and constant humiliation on TV to show for it.

[Quickbeam]

I don't watch this show but the recap is hilarious. Plus, love Finland. I've been to Rovaniemi and it's great. 

Edited March 14, 2017 by Quickbeam

[Bobcatkitten]

I think a lot of these women need to cut a good six inches off their hair so it's healthy and just doesn't hang there. 

I found it interesting that both Raven and Rachel on ATFR wished Nick happiness when asked about the couple but said not a word about Vanessa.

Her crying was tiring. Though I have to admit she said things I have said to my friends, which is how could you ever possibly feel good about a relationship in which a person couldn't decide that you were the one until the very last minute. I would think Vanessa had a complete meltdown watching the final episode. 

[dleighg]

3 minutes ago, scribe95 said:

how could you ever possibly feel good about a relationship in which a person couldn't decide that you were the one until the very last minute.

YES!

[catrice2]

9 minutes ago, dleighg said:

YES!

I'm not trying to be funny, but isn't it that way every year?  Oh, wait but then again only what 3 or 4 have made it?  I mean on one hand they say they knew that "xxx" was special and ""the one"" early on, and then on the other hand they say they were "torn" about the decision and how close it was and how much they feel for the other woman, etc  Which one is it?  And, if they really know that "xx" is the one, why can't they just say that?  If this is about "real love," etc, why would the show keep going and playing with other people's feelings?   they should have a second bachelor on stand by so that if the lead really does find "the one" early on, the other person can step in...ha ha. 

I saw above that Vanessa never watched the show, and I think someone told me that Astrid? and Rachel did not either. I am torn on this.  On one hand it would help you understand, but I can also see not watching it so that your thoughts, reactions, etc. would be authentic and not influenced by something you saw before. 

More importantly I have to assume some of the other women did watch the show and still came on and made fools out of themselves, so I don't know that it helps.  Can only go by what I have seen, and that would be Lace? Jubilee, Olivia, Jasmine and Taylor. So I don't know that watching the show prepares you any more than not watching it.  You can guess what you are getting into by just reading about the premise of the show....that alone should tell you a lot. 

[Zung Li]

55 minutes ago, operalover said:

It's amazing what a good weave can do!

I was disappointed that they made her hair so Bachelorette-y.  I want to cut it off above the shoulders. I liked her hair before when she would put it up on top of her head. I think there might be too much now to pull it up. That's my only complaint though. I thought she looked really pretty last night.

[Bobcatkitten]

It is the same every year. I guess I just actually appreciated that Vanessa talked about it directly. 

[dleighg]

Decided to watch more. I was thoroughly spoiled, but I really thought that Raven's date looked like a lot more fun. Easy and comfortable. So I guess TPTB decided to focus on the "realness" of Vanessa's relationship, so maybe we'll decide it's a true relationship rather than just playing around. But lord, if you don't ever just play around, what a disaster of a relationship.

[Ripley68]

Watched part of Jimmy Kimmel - definitely much happier together.  I'm guessing that watching the final episode right before going on didn't really do any favors for Vanessa's self esteem.  I did notice that even though they were obviously stressed, when they were holding hands, Nick was unconconciously stroking her fingers with his.  You don't do that with someone you don't like.

[seasick]

3 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

don't want to ever see Nick or his maudlin family ever again.

Yeah right??  The boo-hoo crew.  Can't imagine if something actually tragic happened (knock wood) if they are still moping around due to Nick's loss of runner-up-love.

 

3 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

I know it's  the way the world works, but just once, I would like to see one of the plainer girls, like shark woman, win through her personality. 

One did!  Charlie--( girls help me out here.)   His brother was an actor and he was a lot of fun..  She (susie?) was cute but no knock-out and he had several.  They stayed together quite a while but he developed a drinking problem.  

Bob Guinea chose the girl from LA only because he was the ultimate fame-whore and likely wanted to settle there.  Also she had only one relative at home-towns that would end up despising him for the inevitable dump.  That's a different scenerio but just had to bring it up since I couldn't stand his egotistical ass. 

[waving feather]

I think Nick and Vanessa did fell in love/ lust with each other on the show but I don't know if their love is strong enough to withstand all the baggage each one bring from their past. 

For all the strong & independent talk about Vanessa, I see a woman who is quite insecure about herself. She said at least three times this episode that she knows she can be difficult. Who goes around saying that frequently unless you really have a deep-seated issue about it or someone in the past had hurt you by saying that?

And why was Chris Harrison asking them about their struggles throughout their time on ATFR, unless he knows something behind the scenes that we don't?

And I know it's the premise of the show but I roll my eyes every time an engaged couple is taking "baby steps" before talking about marriage. Well, if you have to take baby steps, don't get engaged yet! Lol. Isn't the whole purpose of getting engaged is to plan to be married in the near future? I guess on this show, it is code for going steady.

Edited March 14, 2017 by waving feather

[Wouldofshouldof]

12 hours ago, BuckeyeLou said:

Raven went in wearing a beautiful long fur coat & then when she leaves, they send her out into the cold with no coat on!

Her coat was velvet.  I was going to fanwank that they had thoughtfully placed it in the getaway car for her, but then I remembered this is the show that makes the women stand outside in the cold for rose ceremonies, so...

[dleighg]

am I misremembering? I thought in other seasons the two finalists stood together at the end, and one got aufed. Or is the "proposal" or not always private?

[catrice2]

Ok, I know the expectation is an engagement, what with the Neil Lane promotion and all, but is it written in a contract somewhere that they have to get engaged? Can the lead just choose one woman and ask her if she wants to pursue a committed relationship?  Maybe if they took the engagement/marriage pressure off more of these relationships would work.  

Also, what is wrong with Nick that he thinks the only way to "find love" is through one of these shows?  It is strange to me that he acts like if he can't make it work on one of these shows he is doomed to be single or his life is a failure or something. 

I agree, I never got "strong and independent" from Vanessa. Being direct does not necessarily mean you are strong.  Nick stroked everybody with that strange little move that he had,so I don't know if that is evidence of anything. 

Again, there is nothing for me to think that Nick does not have real feelings for Vanessa. I have not watched a lot of the season so I have missed so much and rely on this board or comments from my friends and/or coworkers.  I too have one co worker that watches (she and the copy room lady) and have overheard a lot of their comments.  She, however, did not watch this season and made her comments mostly about Nick and his previous appearances. 

[kira28]

I've come to the conclusion that Nick's dad was crying because immediately after seeing and meeting Vanessa he knew that she was the one Nick wanted because he clearly has a type. Thus his dad warning him it has never worked out with that "type" and maybe he should try something new. Vanessa is just cold and self-centered. I liked her after the first one on one but my opinion of her went downhill after that.  

I thought Raven wasn't sophisticated enough in Nick's eyes but he sure had fun with her. He was playful with her and seemed happy. He always looked on edge with Vanessa and even when he was joking with her or teasing her she's so stick up her ass serious. On the after the final rose nick looked like a beaten dog. Just awkward and painful to watch. I think Vanessa's idea of compromise is you have to do everything MY way. 

Edited March 14, 2017 by kira28

[catrice2]

1 hour ago, scribe95 said:

It is the same every year. I guess I just actually appreciated that Vanessa talked about it directly. 

What bothers me about what I have seen is that everyone says that they are afraid that it "won't work out."  That is their GREATEST fear, however, the show is known for the relationships not working out on average, so that doesn't make sense to me.  You already know it statistically does not work out, so why are you so afraid or shocked that it might not?  I

[Boofish]

11 hours ago, catrice2 said:

Yeah, I haven't had a chance to talk to her, but she and her group from work watch faithfully.  She said they have been nervous every since Rachel was announced and that when her family asked him about food at dinner or Nick made some cracks about being white (not sure what that was) they felt like having a minority lead would mean that race will be discussed all the time and it won't be any fun. 

This story just keeps getting better, laughably sad and more cringe-worthy.

[Rainsong]

We’ll start with another confession with a bit of accidental historical perspective:  as a recovering (and constantly lapsing) completist/archivist, I have been digitizing some VHS tapes to get rid of their space-eating bulk (they’ve moved house several times in the last few years due to my procrastination), mostly to keep a handful of some news and sporting events.

As fate would have it one tape had a partial episode of The Bachelor from AD 2004.  It was the Byron season ie the professional bass angler (?!) with the weather-beaten face, slicked-back blonde hair and male model aura.  Given the time of year, I was fascinated to spot the differences between then and now.  Those differences were legion.

It was the pre-HDTV era (4:3 aspect ratio, standard definition picture) and ABC’s post-production excess made the present-day version seem tame.  Nearly every camera cut prompted those sizzling cymbals and an epilepsy-inducing flash of light.  They were trying to out-commercial their commercials with shots of beaches, sunsets, silhouettes of joggers, boats, cars, etc.

But the most striking contrast between then and now was the cast.  These people were amazingly fit in both the American (slim and trim) and British (strikingly attractive) senses of the word.  Byron may not have been a theoretical mathematician himself but he made Nick look like an overgrown 8th grader who refuses to shave because he’s thrilled to have whiskers for the first time.  The 2004 women – and they were WOMEN, most of them in their early 30s – were more like a modern-day cast from a Real Housewives series.  They were gorgeous, confident and alluring and could string multiple sentences together.  Did they benefit from the contemporary broadcast technology’s inability to convey every crease or flaw?  Possibly.  But bone structure can’t be faked and they had it in spades.  Nostalgia?  Perhaps a bit of it.  In any case, they also made this season’s gaggle of I-suppose-she-looks-ok-from-a-certain-angle types look positively mediocre.  Probably because they are.

Casting for the Bachelor has either become an exercise in desperation or in cynicism – maybe both.  The ubiquity of social media means that anyone in the public eye for any reason will become a lightning rod for conversation, controversy and outright hatred and abuse from some disturbed individuals.  It seems rather safe (and obvious) to say that women who know better are steering well clear of The Bachelor franchise because they want no part of the slings and arrows.  Desperation is forcing the producers to cast young, naïve, and/or unstable females raised on a diet of Snapchat and Instagram for whom fame outweighs fear.  Cynicism is rife on all sides, including the audience’s, but it didn’t need to be so.  The producers long ago abandoned The Right Reasons ie authentic competition in favor of pantomime featuring The Bitch archetype ie a contestant with no real chance of winning but who occupies more screen time than even The Bachelor himself.  The Bitch is a conversation piece and convenient filler.  And God knows they’ve needed plenty of both this year due to a) The cold-fish Bachelor and b) the lack of mystery, suspense, etc.  If The Bitch warms to her part and willingly participates in provocative dialogue and acts contrived by the producers so much the better.

With all due respect to those who had Raven pegged as the winner, it was clear from Nick’s reactions throughout and the futile red-herring edits that conveyed Vanessa as a weepy fence-sitter that she was walking to victory, such as it is.  I didn’t check spoilers this season and would have been disappointed in myself if I did, so obvious was the result. 

Raven attempted to sell the salesman with a flood of I Love Yous but he never stopped treating her like she had a case of poison ivy he wasn’t keen to brush against.  His body language was tortured…or simply absent most of the time.

Raven can claim one victory – she is the recipient of this year’s Golden Trowel Award for applying a dense and jarringly obvious layer of makeup at all times in all situations.  Raven, you had nothing to apologize for in your shapely, snug jeans and you are this season’s long hair champion by a comfortable margin (let’s hope that trend returns to the 70s where it belongs).  Now it’s time for a new look in all departments including geography.

Math is hard but let us try.  A small town population 2,800 means a male population of 1,300.  If we pare away those aged less than 20 and over 40 we’re left with ¼ of that figure or 325 males.  If we assume half of those are married or otherwise occupied that leaves 163 (we’ll round up cos we like you).  In other words, Raven, you could have a date per day with every eligible male in town and still have six months left over on the calendar.  You probably know every one of them already anyway and the non-starters would cut the field down even more, say to 100.  It probably won’t happen for you in Hoxie.  Capitalize on Dad’s good health fortune and go Where The Boys Are, wherever you think that may be.

The Shoe Shot is always meant to draw gasps.  Feet extend out of limo and touch down on the ground – or in this case the snow.  It’s the Runner Up walking to her doom!  Fair play to Raven who was more annoyed than disappointed.  I like cynical girls (hat tip Marshall Crenshaw) and she’s definitely one.

The worst-kept secret of the Bachelor franchise played out next, with Vanessa and her deal-closing cleavage framed by fur.  Both speeches were well-rehearsed but rehearsed nevertheless.  Vanessa was genuinely overcome with emotion…for the ring, mostly.  To celebrate, Nick hoisted the diminutive Vanessa into the air repeatedly.  As you do. 

Nick and Vanessa may have recovered from jet lag, but they have replaced it with relationship lag.  Grim-faced, evasive, overly analytical.  Nick says they’re ‘being realistic’ (I think he means pessimistic…he sure looks that way) and Vanessa says ‘they’re taking baby steps’ but haven’t they already taken giant leaps by proposing and accepting, respectively?  C’mon…perma-tanned Neil Lane even flew to Lapland! 

Harrison asks about plans and they offer downcast eyes and vague, elliptical responses with a surfeit of conditionals and hypotheticals.  This looks to be the Edmund Fitzgerald of love in which a disaster occurs between the US and Canada.

Clever editing couldn’t salvage this real-time wreck and the subject was changed mercifully (?) and early to Bachelorette Rachel, whose segments constituted nearly 40% of this moribund, anticlimactic ATFR.  That can’t be coincidence or mere eagerness to hype her season.  I half expected stagehands to come out with shepherds’ crooks and yank Nick & Ness offstage.

Rachel’s sneak preview even included two leadoff men and revealed (as if we didn’t know already) that her season will be a stultifying exercise in racial bean-counting dye-ver-suh-tee.  One from each column, with conflict inevitable – because conflict will be purposely engineered in the name of social consciousness.  Can’t they let this person be a person and not a color?  It would be so much more interesting and refreshing.

Speaking of lessons, we can only hope that Fleiss, Harrison & Co. have learned the hard way about the Law Of Diminishing Returns and that recycled contestants have cheap and easy Bachelor-centric backstories that are known and/or readily accessible to the audience.  But that same audience can quickly grow tired – even sick – of contestants who descend rapidly from dynamism to dud.  Nick, who learned the fine art of passivity from his bawling, henpecked father, was never going to be A Good Catch, mostly because he didn’t want to be.  To him, commitment is more about a loss of freedom and less about adding a life partner.  29 women discovered this, some more quickly than others, some more painfully than others, but the one woman left standing seems to reaching the same conclusion and will most likely be back in her Montreal classroom very soon.  And single again.

Edited March 14, 2017 by Rainsong

[JenE4]

53 minutes ago, seasick said:

One did!  Charlie--( girls help me out here.)   His brother was an actor and he was a lot of fun..  She (susie?) was cute but no knock-out and he had several.  They stayed together quite a while but he developed a drinking problem.  

O'Connell. Jerry O'Connell's brother. I thought the girl he picked was very cute and that she could have done better than him. The drinking problem was apparent on his season. I still recall group dates with doing body shots off of the various contestants' bellies. IMO, that was the trashiest season ever because he didn't project the expected behavior/stature of The Bachelor.

33 minutes ago, dleighg said:

am I misremembering? I thought in other seasons the two finalists stood together at the end, and one got aufed. Or is the "proposal" or not always private?

You are misremembering. The final 2 is always done this way. For a handful of seasons they used to go back and forth between the filmed "proposals" so you wouldn't know which one it was going to be. I think maybe once or twice they had the loser go last. But now they've given up again, and it's always send the F2 on her way and usher in the proposal.

18 minutes ago, catrice2 said:

Ok, I know the expectation is an engagement, what with the Neil Lane promotion and all, but is it written in a contract somewhere that they have to get engaged? Can the lead just choose one woman and ask her if she wants to pursue a committed relationship?  Maybe if they took the engagement/marriage pressure off more of these relationships would work. 

That has happened a few times. The aforementioned Charlie O'Connell was one of them, I think. But I'm sure the producers REALLY push for a proposal.

[catrice2]

13 minutes ago, Boofish said:

This story just keeps getting better, laughably sad and more cringe-worthy.

Although it is true that it is cringe-worthy  I am shocked that so many people on this board think it is unusual.  Do you really think there are not people out there right now who are boycotting Rachel's season, or who don't think that having a black lead will turn this show into Flavor of Love?  It is sad, but it is a reality and one of the reasons why the franchise has been hesitant to cast a minority.   Talking about race makes people uncomfortable, and many people have a pre-conceived notion of how minorities act.  Unfortunately I am afraid this type of show is the one to play into those stereotypes.  Call me cynical, but I foind it odd that of all the contestants on the "intro" night there was one that made a controversial racial comment.  He may have meant it all in fun, but it has already turned into a thing.   Some are villifying him, others thought it was funny and even others took it as confirmation that uncomfortable racial overtones will dominate her season.    I'm glad that so many people are supportive, but it would be unrealistic to think that everyone feels the same.  Although I support their right  to not watch, if  it doesn't turn into some stereotype validation, they may have missed the chance to have their perspectives broadened by hopefully seeing Rachel "look for love" and people just being people. 

[Boofish]

9 minutes ago, catrice2 said:

Although it is true that it is cringe-worthy  I am shocked that so many people on this board think it is unusual.  Do you really think there are not people out there right now who are boycotting Rachel's season, or who don't think that having a black lead will turn this show into Flavor of Love?  It is sad, but it is a reality and one of the reasons why the franchise has been hesitant to cast a minority.   Talking about race makes people uncomfortable, and many people have a pre-conceived notion of how minorities act.  Unfortunately I am afraid this type of show is the one to play into those stereotypes.  Call me cynical, but I foind it odd that of all the contestants on the "intro" night there was one that made a controversial racial comment.  He may have meant it all in fun, but it has already turned into a thing.   Some are villifying him, others thought it was funny and even others took it as confirmation that uncomfortable racial overtones will dominate her season.    I'm glad that so many people are supportive, but it would be unrealistic to think that everyone feels the same.  Although I support their right  to not watch, if  it doesn't turn into some stereotype validation, they may have missed the chance to have their perspectives broadened by hopefully seeing Rachel "look for love" and people just being people. 

Oh I didn't use the words "unusual" or "unbelievable" Not at all shocked people feel this way.  That idiot in the smedium baby gap suit should have been escorted off the planet IMMEDIATELY. He seems like a swarmy bar guy who has "sleep with black chick" on his bucket list. 

Edited March 14, 2017 by Boofish

[RHJunkie]

4 minutes ago, catrice2 said:

What bothers me about what I have seen is that everyone says that they are afraid that it "won't work out."  That is their GREATEST fear, however, the show is known for the relationships not working out on average, so that doesn't make sense to me.  You already know it statistically does not work out, so why are you so afraid or shocked that it might not?  I

Because they all have real feelings invested and likely know that it takes more than the feelings developed on the show to sustain a relationship in the real world. It's likely hard to think that all that time and feelings that you're experiencing can mean nothing in the long run or end in heartbreak despite entering into a relationship feeling like you found what you were looking for. The fact that the odds are statistically stacked against them is exactly why they would be afraid. Everyone leaves thinking that their love is different and their feelings are true enough to stand the test of real life, and most of them have reality slap them in the face. When the odds aren't in your favour, most people tend to hope that they're the exception and not the norm.

[dleighg]

28 minutes ago, JenE4 said:

You are misremembering. The final 2 is always done this way.

I guess I'm thinking of when it should have been final three on Ben's season but Calia was aufed early, and the other two were expecting her to be there. (is that at least correct?)  And I think maybe something similar happened with JoJo? So I just remember two people standing there waiting for the lead.

[booboopbedoo]

1 hour ago, Wouldofshouldof said:

fanwank

Love it!

The whole show was a waste of time for me- I FF through most of it.

It will last about 6 months and then they will break up because he is not going to move to Montreal (and Canada doesnt want him) and she is not leaving her "kids". He picked the easiest relationship to leave.

[slowpoked]

Ok fess up, who among you tweeted this?

Hahaha!

[After7Only]

11 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I'm kind of sad hearing rumours here that Rachel was picked for the Bachelorette all along, so maybe all the attention that Nick paid to her was faked?  Geez, this shit is even more cynical than I could have dreamed.

I'm not sure if producers picked Rachel definitively as the Bachelor from the start.  But I'm sure they do have a certain subset of contestants that they pick to go far (and strongly encourage the Bachelor/ette to keep).   I'd guess that both Rachel and Corine where in that subset.  This happens every though, Rachel was not unique.  Producers have already vetted and decided the subset of men in Rachel's season who could be the next Bachelor and will make sure at least one makes top 4.   And that person most definitely won't be dude who made the "go black, won't go back" comment : )

Haven't watch an ATFR in several seasons, but I can't remember one where the vibe between the couple was so weird.  They were being very careful with their words.  

[MakeMeLaugh]

4 hours ago, PreviouslyTV said:

And by that, we mean...hooray, he finally chose a (potential) wife!

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Laughing so hard I'm crying. Literally. I watched only the after the final rose hour (for the Bachelorette coverage) and skipped the rest of the season because Nick, ick. Not knowing who the final two women are or what happened in the last episode doesn't really matter--the recap is so damn funny as a standalone. Santa as stalking serial killer....

[catrice2]

Spare a thought for Vanessa.  Everything is on Nick's side.  He wants to do DWTS...ok, he is launching a business.  He can then tell her that (I think they get paid) it makes perfect sense for him to do that and add "easy" money that he can pour back into his new business and also promote the new business with the free exposure, or that it is easy money to put into their future.  Not sure if the show pays for relocation expenses, but he also could say that they would have more money for relocation and/or immigration fees. 

I don't know if his new business is web based or not (did someone tell me he does something with software), but he can always argue that he needs to be in a place or position to promote it.  All the arguments are on his side. 

Anything she does or says to the contrary will make her look petty and not supportive of her mate.   It also doesn't matter if she is all the things people have called her.. whiny, immature, controlling, confrontational, joyless, etc. .millions, or hundreds of thousands will follow her on social media and hang on every picture that they take just because they are part of this franchise.  I actually feel sorry for her....except for the fact that she is going to get tons of freebies, and if it doesn't work out she gets the ring, right?  Not bad for 6 to 12 months out of your life. 

[DEL901]

I agree that they seemed strange on set.  I have taped but haven't watched Kimmel yet.  And Chris Harrison practically rushed them off the stage.

And I always hate when couples talk about distance stopping them from spending time together.  They could find a way... if they wanted.  My exhibit A is always Ashley and JP.  They used to have dinner together almost every night.  They Skyped, ate and talked in front of their computers so when they could finally see each other in public, the relationship was well advanced from what it was at the end of the show.  They actually got to know each other.

[1992austenlover]

11 hours ago, Jaclyn88 said:

I think we just witnessed a guy picking his fiancé based on looks alone .. because there is no way anyone would fall in love with that personality . 

Actually, I think that Nick has done nothing but prove all season that finding someone with a "strong personality" like Vanessa's was of the utmost importance to him. Look, I get that people are hating on Vanessa because of how seemingly difficult and high maintenance she seems to be...but I think that people should remember that Nick knew that about Vanessa--he knew about her character flaws-- when he chose her which, to me, signifies that Vanessa's personality is exactly what he was looking for. And like I said before, Vanessa does embody a lot of the characteristics that Nick wanted in a partner: she's beautiful, strong, confident and not afraid to communicate her thoughts and feelings, especially for the sake of their relationship. Nick even said that he wanted a relationship where everything is on the table and Vanessa seems to have no problems giving him that; and as much as I love Raven, I just don't think that she would have been able to provide Nick with that "raw relationship" that he really wanted, simply because I don't think that she would have been able to match him in terms of passion and emotional connection because of the differences in their personalities. Judging from their comments on AFR, I get the sense that Nick and Vanessa have one of those "fight hard, love harder" type of relationships which are extremely exhausting but can be rewarding if they are able to grow together and are committed to making things work.  I might be in the minority (again) but I ultimately do think that Nick found what he was looking for in the end; he found a relationship with a woman who embodied his desires and who seems to be just as honest and candid as he is--qualities that seem to be very important to him in terms of being able to give him the "raw" relationship that he has always wanted.  Despite how they acted on AFR, I actually do see a genuine connection between Nick and Vanessa and I do think that the fact that they are so similar and aren't afraid to communicate with each other signify that they at least have a foundation to make things work. Will it work in the long run? Only time will tell...but I will say that, for better or for worse, I do think that Nick picked the best person for himself and for that reason, I do think that he did find his happy ending. I'm just hoping that it's not as temporary as it seems. 

[thesupremediva1]

57 minutes ago, slowpoked said:

Ok fess up, who among you tweeted this?

Hahaha!

I'll say this in his favor: Nick traded up each time. Vanessa is stunning. They are two masochists who get off on drama that matches passion. I am a part-time actor and many of my artistic and theatrical friends are drawn to similar types of relationship dynamics. I know I am - and I know that's why I'm still single. Some people just don't want an easy love. They want the fight. I'm a big cynic but I've always loved Nick and I want them to make it work.

I wish I'd tried out for this season after seeing the final dates. I'm obsessed with Christmas, snow, and puppies! That would have been a dream come true whether I got the final rose or not.

I am researching Lapland for my next vacation.

[Nowhere]

Ok well my dvr fucking didn't record ATFR and I can't find it anywhere. Why would the dvr do that to me? I'm so pissed. Did it not know that it was part of this? So I missed the Rachel parts and the bitch Vanessa. So thanks a lot dvr. You're a real pal, Asshole.

[Nowhere]

False alarm. Nobody panic. ATFR is in the dvr. Public apology to my dvr. I really jumped the gun and said some things about it that I now regret. I hope it forgives me.

[violetr]

Quote

I don't know, I said it all along that I felt like I should like Vanessa, but couldn't figure out what was missing. She is smart, pretty, articulate, just so many great things, and yet I found her boring.

I had the same issue. For the longest time I couldn't figure out why I wasn't warming to Vanessa. I finally realized it's because she's a total control freak, and I cannot handle control freaks. They are absolutely exhausting. I feel very fortunate that I never inadvertently wound up in a relationship with one because I would have been miserable. Nick - women can be strong, sassy and confident without being totally controlling. In fact, we're out there in spades, Nick! 

I also just wanted to give a shout out to Nick's dad. What a mensch. It's so refreshing to see a dad on this show who's not just fucking steeped in toxic masculinity and bravado. He's sweet and articulate and not afraid to show his emotions, and he raised his son to be the same way. Yay for sensitive men!

Finally, that whole segment with the four men meeting Rachel at the end was possibly even more cringe-inducing than Nick and Vanessa. I wanted to crawl under my sofa. And we get a racist comment almost immediately? Ew.

[slowpoked]

Ok, so I was one of those people who thought Nick and Vanessa had an amazing chemistry during the first date, and while I was spoiled, I did see why she would be the F1 on that date. But for some reason, the producers decided it's better to edit their "journey" as this exhausting, emotional one, rather than giving us the amazing feels you get when the F1 is finally revealed. I mean, I'm sure they have their issues and problems, but I would think there's also some kind of happiness there. It reminded me of when Emily complained about how her and Brad's journey were edited to make it look like it was a problematic, high-maintenance one. Emily said "well, yeah, after watching how the show came out, I would have picked Chantal too...." 

Nick and Vanessa's ending didn't give me the warm fuzzies that Ashley/JP and Sean/Catherine gave me. It does look like there is a strain in their relationship, and Nick joining DWTS immediately isn't going to help. Oh well, while I did root for them to end up together, they're going to need a lot of luck to see this thing through.

Oh, and Raven? You are my new hero:

Nick: I will miss you.

Raven: I know. 

Complete with DRY EYES! High-five girl!!!

Edited March 14, 2017 by slowpoked

[slowpoked]

17 minutes ago, thesupremediva1 said:

I'll say this in his favor: Nick traded up each time. Vanessa is stunning. They are two masochists who get off on drama that matches passion. I am a part-time actor and many of my artistic and theatrical friends are drawn to similar types of relationship dynamics. I know I am - and I know that's why I'm still single. Some people just don't want an easy love. They want the fight. I'm a big cynic but I've always loved Nick and I want them to make it work.

I think Andi is stunning though. And one of the reasons I picked Vanessa early on was that looks-wise she reminded me of Andi. Nick clearly has a type.

Kaitlyn was the one who didn't do it for me, looks-wise, but I can see how that "playful" personality is attractive to some.