S21.E12: The Final Rose/S21.E13: After the Final Rose

[Former Nun]

I love the perfect/funny misspelling of a word describing Nick's parents.    I'm not feeling well, so I wasn't watching the show--but had it on in my bedroom.  If I had to listen to Raven's VOICE for the rest of my life, I'd have earplugs implanted permanently.   Does anyone really believe Nick is in "Hollywood" to get married?  Surely someone can create another competition show on the Food Channel for a former Bachelor to host.

[Wandering Snark]

36 minutes ago, Armchair Critic said:

Guess they need something "dramatic" to take the focus off the non-chemistry between Nick and Vanessa.

I agree, but I also find it funny to say that as during the season everyone claimed they had this awesome chemistry and were meant to be from word one while Nick & Raven didn't have any chemistry. Now Nick & Vanessa are the non-chemistry spokesmodels. The most painful part though was when asked the question "So are you two going to get married?" There was (what seemed like) 30 seconds of dead air without either Nick or Vanessa even being able to go there and they both just hemmed and hawed and said how they were still working on that one.

As I've said numerous times Vanessa just seems to have her very own happiness black hole that follows her around and sucks the joy out of everything. You shouldn't WANT your relationship to constantly be a struggle of whose turn it is to compromise. They seem to have quite a mountain to climb.

I love Raven even more now that she didn't end up with Nick, I also don't think he should have asked her instead. I'd hate to see her mired down in Nick's issues. But she was the definition of you should actually, I don't know, enjoy the time you spend with each other. She was easy to get along with and considerate of Nick's feelings/being in this process. It made me think of that phrase "Don't sweat the small stuff." She never did while Vanessa seems to be the type to 'sweat' everything.

[GracieK]

I've never seen a more awkward ATFR.  I hope Nick and Vanessa make it.. but man that was just painful to watch.  It made me feel like times I've been in a fight with my ex and had to attend a family function and act all lovey like everything was fine but in reality we are seething at each other... and no one really buys that you aren't fighting.  It was just the most unconvincing display I've seen on this franchise yet.

1 minute ago, Wandering Snark said:

I agree, but I also find it funny to say that as during the season everyone claimed they had this awesome chemistry and were meant to be from word one while Nick & Raven didn't have any chemistry. Now Nick & Vanessa are the non-chemistry spokesmodels. The most painful part though was when asked the question "So are you two going to get married?" There was (what seemed like) 30 seconds of dead air without either Nick or Vanessa even being able to go there and they both just hemmed and hawed and said how they were still working on that one.

As I've said numerous times Vanessa just seems to have her very own happiness black hole that follows her around and sucks the joy out of everything. You shouldn't WANT your relationship to constantly be a struggle of whose turn it is to compromise. They seem to have quite a mountain to climb.

I love Raven even more now that she didn't end up with Nick, I also don't think he should have asked her instead. I'd hate to see her mired down in Nick's issues. But she was the definition of you should actually, I don't know, enjoy the time you spend with each other. She was easy to get along with and considerate of Nick's feelings/being in this process. It made me think of that phrase "Don't sweat the small stuff." She never did while Vanessa seems to be the type to 'sweat' everything.

Agree so much with your post especially about Raven.  I just love her and want to see more of her.  She was level headed and mature and also sweet and wanted the best for Nick.  I want to see her on BiP but I hope it's not in some ridiculous manner.  I just really think she's great..and looked so beautiful tonight!

[yorklee2]

Just going to slide these small observations in:

After seeing Nick's sweet dad cry now we see where Nick gets his emotional crying from.

And now we can understand why Vanessa's family was so overwrought at the thought of Nick not picking her. Can't imagine having to deal with all the drama and tears that would have insued

Edited March 14, 2017 by yorklee2

[TheFinalRose]

Hey Chris, here were some questions for you: Nick, how did it feel after all those failed romances to finally have the girl you want want you back?

Hey Nick, what do you love most about Vanessa, since you were never really able to talk about her honestly on the show?

Vanessa, you must be head over heels to move to America and live with Nick. How does your family feel about that?

I'm pissed that they didn't treat Nick better. Chris Harrison really sucks now ... time to get rid of him. Yeah, I went there! 

[catrice2]

Wow, I'm confused.  Most people are saying it was tense, etc, but I thought everyone said it was obvious he was in love with Vanessa from the start?  Do they get to see each other after the show wraps?  Maybe they are just nervous from not seeing each other?  If she has not been here with him then it could be they just have not had a chance to talk.   Is Nick still lilting and lisping?  I think they will do just fine. She will pull it together once they start all the appearances, etc. and she starts getting more attention.  Nick, of course, doesn't want anyone to have more attention than him, so as long as she plays her part she should be able to get through.

 

 I need more info on this racial quote.  My friend called and left a message and said someone said something terrible that was meant to be funny?  She is freaking out because she said her friends from work that watch the show with her said it is looking like the Bachelorette is going to be too ethnic and racial, so they are not going to watch.   Has Rachel turned into Barbie Bachelorette?  When does that show come on? 

What happened??!! 

[ribboninthesky1]

1 hour ago, scenicbyway said:

I was waiting for Neil Lane to say, "So Nick, the usual? And slide the ring box to him."

Ha! 

Don't have much to add, except good luck to Rachel.  She's gonna need it. 

Quote

I agree, but I also find it funny to say that as during the season everyone claimed they had this awesome chemistry and were meant to be from word one while Nick & Raven didn't have any chemistry. Now Nick & Vanessa are the non-chemistry spokesmodels. 

Amusing, indeed. 

Edited March 14, 2017 by ribboninthesky1

[GracieK]

1 minute ago, catrice2 said:

Wow, I'm confused.  Most people are saying it was tense, etc, but I thought everyone said it was obvious he was in love with Vanessa from the start?  Do they get to see each other after the show wraps?  Maybe they are just nervous from not seeing each other?  If she has not been here with him then it could be they just have not had a chance to talk.   Is Nick still lilting and lisping?  I think they will do just fine. She will pull it together once they start all the appearances, etc. and she starts getting more attention.  Nick, of course, doesn't want anyone to have more attention than him, so as long as she plays her part she should be able to get through.

 

Most couples talk about how they find a way to covertly be together and spend time alone after the show wraps.  It sounded like these two have just been living in separate countries and having some pretty intense fights the entire time.. one would assume from long distance.  I've been watching this show from the beginning and this was, for me, the most awkward ATFR I've seen.  There didn't seem to be love, familiarity, mutual respect.. they seemed distant, unhappy, and the only thing they could talk about was their challenges.. because seemingly that is the only thing they have shared.  One never really knows what happens behind the scenes, and I do really hope they are in love and make it work.  But man.. I just don't feel good about it after seeing that.  It would be awesome to see Vanessa in the audience supporting him on DWTS and watch them ride off into a sunset happily ever after.. I just don't know if that's realistic.

[catrice2]

1 minute ago, ribboninthesky1 said:

Ha! 

Don't have much to add, except good luck to Rachel.  She's gonna need it. 

If the way they edited this season and how they let one contestant take over the show is an indication, I don't think I can watch.  I should be more interested in watching the Bachelorette than the Bachelor to see the men, but other than this board (which is awesome) the two seasons I have tried to watch have not been compelling. Besides if Nick and Ben were the best of the Bacheloretee, I am do not have high hopes.

  Everyone keeps saying they were "different" than normal seasons....but I remember Olivia being the talk last year and Corinne this year. Both Bachelors were bland....none of the girls were particularly intriguing....so what was different? 

[nutty1]

I think there is a fine line between being realistic and being pessimistic, and Vanessa  walks that fine line. 

I thought it was a really sweet proposal. But I knew the minute they had Vanessa on herself, it wasn't going to be good.  Their time together on stage was cringeworthy. Too bad. I like Nick a lot. I never warmed up to Vanessa. Loved Raven but not for Nick. Happy we will see her again on Paradise. 

Maybe Nick should go seek out Andi. I always thought they had the best chemistry. 

Edited March 14, 2017 by nutty1

[seasick]

I always thought there was something "dead' about Raven.  She had a blank stare that I just could not get past and it was really kind of creepy.   I realize now it reminds me of the stare of someone on a heavy mood stabilizer or something.   Therefore no surprise to me at all that she didn't cry. A dim bulb inside there.

[catrice2]

2 minutes ago, GracieK said:

Most couples talk about how they find a way to covertly be together and spend time alone after the show wraps.  It sounded like these two have just been living in separate countries and having some pretty intense fights the entire time.. one would assume from long distance.  I've been watching this show from the beginning and this was, for me, the most awkward ATFR I've seen.  There didn't seem to be love, familiarity, mutual respect.. they seemed distant, unhappy, and the only thing they could talk about was their challenges.. because seemingly that is the only thing they have shared.  One never really knows what happens behind the scenes, and I do really hope they are in love and make it work.  But man.. I just don't feel good about it after seeing that.  It would be awesome to see Vanessa in the audience supporting him on DWTS and watch them ride off into a sunset happily ever after.. I just don't know if that's realistic.

Oh, I think she will be there it makes for good television. There is no way they will break up this soon.  I'll bet it is in some type of contract that they have to last at least two months after the reveal just to meet pre booked press obligations.   I honestly saw a few cute moments, but nothing that made me think anyone was falling in love.  I did, however, miss the vomit episode and from what I understand that sealed the deal.   

1 minute ago, seasick said:

I always thought there was something "dead' about Raven.  She had a blank stare that I just could not get past and it was really kind of creepy.   I realize now it reminds me of the stare of someone on a heavy mood stabilizer or something.   Therefore no surprise to me at all that she didn't cry. A dim bulb inside there.

Wednesday Addams! 

[KenyaJ]

19 minutes ago, catrice2 said:

 I need more info on this racial quote.  My friend called and left a message and said someone said something terrible that was meant to be funny?  She is freaking out because she said her friends from work that watch the show with her said it is looking like the Bachelorette is going to be too ethnic and racial, so they are not going to watch.   Has Rachel turned into Barbie Bachelorette?  When does that show come on? 

Are they gonna be scarred by seeing black people on TV? 

[Artsda]

They seemed more comfortable and having fun on Jimmy Kimmel. 

I think they just got a perfect score at the newlywed game.

[catrice2]

3 minutes ago, KenyaJ said:

Are they gonna be scarred by seeing black people on TV? 

Ha ha, possibly!   I don't know what happened, but surely you cannot judge how an entire season will go based upon what...an hour? 30 minutes?  How long was Rachel on screen? 

I'm glad to see that Nick and Vanessa are more natural. I can't imagine the nerves, so they may have seemed awkward, but were just nervous. If it was that bad, however, I'm sure they got coaching and feedback before going on Kimmel.   know, I am so suspicious! 

Edited March 14, 2017 by catrice2

[TiaLou]

I was spoiled as usual during this season, but even if I hadn't known for sure, I thought it was pretty obvious from the last two dates that Vanessa was it. From what we were shown, Nick was working very hard to comfort Vanessa, and just gave Raven some cliches.

I didn't think they were any more tense than any other couple on the ATFR. Chris Harrison was super super super annoying with his repeated questions about how HARD this is, how TOUGH this has been, blah blah blah. He's the worst interviewer ever.

Vanessa is just gorgeous but ... yeah ... there's something harsh about her. I thought it was telling that Rachel expressed her hope that Nick is happy, but she had nothing to say about Vanessa, which you'd think wouldn't be too hard to do.

That was a good twist, to bring out some guys for Rachel. Not sure I'll bother watching. 

[truthaboutluv]

12 minutes ago, Artsda said:

They seemed more comfortable and having fun on Jimmy Kimmel. 

I think they just got a perfect score at the newlywed game.

Yeah just watched it. I thought they seem way more relaxed, cute and happy. If they had been like that, even while admitting things were challenging, I don't think people would be as negative. But then I remembered that apparently Kimmel is filmed before the AFR. So now I'm wondering if something happened before the AFR and they couldn't hide that they were upset about something. 

eta: Two things I will say that I thought was surprisingly positive was Vanessa's very casual admission that she would move and her genuine excitement about DWTS. I will also say I think some misunderstood them regarding the moving, especially when Nick referenced the logistics factor. I read comments where many thought they were being vague about the living situation because things were so bad but I actually thought they were referring to immigration issues because Vanessa's Canadian. 

Edited March 14, 2017 by truthaboutluv

[JenMcSnark]

I started out really liking Vanessa, but oh my...  She is just one high-maintenance, controlling, "Nick we need to have a talk", downer girlfriend.  Yikes.  I really like Nick (granted, I only saw him BIP and this) but I think he's a great guy.  But I do think there is something wrong in there.   He picks people who are emotionally unavailable for whatever reason.  Vanessa seems like she's trying to come up with any reason to not be happy with Nick.  And he seems to want to be a "caretaker" which is one thing that Vanessa says she was most impressed by, but I have the feeling he is never going to be able to meet her demands.  She is a strong person in that she is outspoken, has a career, etc., but she is very, VERY needy and high-maintenance.  

Love shouldn't be that hard people. It's supposed to be fun. 

Personally I would have picked Raven out of the final two.  And Rachel over anyone (especially after seeing the bloopers).  But I do think there were several others that he might have done well with (such as Kristina who I think really is the mix of strong and vulnerable that Nick wants).   

[catrice2]

3 minutes ago, truthaboutluv said:

Yeah just watched it. I thought they seem way more relaxed, cute and happy. If they had been like that, even while admitting things were challenging, I don't think people would be as negative. But then I remembered that apparently Kimmel is filmed before the AFR. So now I'm wondering if something happened before the AFR and they couldn't hide that they were upset about something. 

Interesting. I didn't realize Kimmel is filmed first, nor did I realize the AFTR was live. 

[PTVjones]

28 minutes ago, catrice2 said:

 

 

 I need more info on this racial quote.  My friend called and left a message and said someone said something terrible that was meant to be funny?  She is freaking out because she said her friends from work that watch the show with her said it is looking like the Bachelorette is going to be too ethnic and racial, so they are not going to watch.   Has Rachel turned into Barbie Bachelorette?  When does that show come on? 

What happened??!! 

I mean... if your friends are surprised that the first black bachelorette had to (through no fault or prompting of her own) deal with an inappropriate comment that was "racial" and "ethnic" then I encourage them to watch as I'm sure other A.A. Can relate to scenarios when they were singled out for race when they were "the first" or "the only" in a situation.

[maryshelley]

Quote

I'm really ready for Rachel's season, as it seems like this show has been for a month-ish now. I hope to all the reality gods that 'the process' doesn't dull her personality and wit. I was no big fan of Emily Maynard, but her Bachelorette was the most recent one I enjoyed, because she seemed to maintain control throughout and kept things driving forward. I could see Rachel doing the same thing, and I hope she pulls it off.

I was just saying to my husband that I thought Rachel could be another Emily. You need to have some understanding of human nature and an ability to analyze it and describe it to be a really good Bachelorette. 

[PetuniaP]

Quote

 I need more info on this racial quote.  My friend called and left a message and said someone said something terrible that was meant to be funny?  She is freaking out because she said her friends from work that watch the show with her said it is looking like the Bachelorette is going to be too ethnic and racial, so they are not going to watch.  

Wow. Just....wow. Coded language much? At least some people never fail to not disappoint! 

I really hope Vanessa and Nick end this charade soon. That was one of the most uncomfortable AFTR I've ever watched with a supposedly "happy couple". I'm glad they ended on the happier note of the start of Rachel's season...even if most of those entrances were cringeworthy!

[catrice2]

5 minutes ago, PTVjones said:

I mean... if your friends are surprised that the first black bachelorette had to (through no fault or prompting of her own) deal with an inappropriate comment that was "racial" and "ethnic" then I encourage them to watch as I'm sure other A.A. Can relate to scenarios when they were singled out for race when they were "the first" or "the only" in a situation.

First of all, they are not my friends.  Secondly, I still have no idea what was said..so I don't know of it was racial or ethnic, or if they just perceived it to be that way. Lastly, it does not take being the first or the only to have to endure some type of comment.  Whatever it was, it is my fear for this season.  No comment can be just a comment and every interaction will be viewed through a different lens by SOME.  Hopefully not all., or that SOME will be a few and most people can watch it as just another season with some crazy people. 

1 minute ago, PetuniaP said:

Wow. Just....wow. Coded language much? At least some people never fail to not disappoint! 

I really hope Vanessa and Nick end this charade soon. That was one of the most uncomfortable AFTR I've ever watched with a supposedly "happy couple". I'm glad they ended on the happier note of the start of Rachel's season...even if most of those entrances were cringeworthy!

Yeah, I haven't had a chance to talk to her, but she and her group from work watch faithfully.  She said they have been nervous every since Rachel was announced and that when her family asked him about food at dinner or Nick made some cracks about being white (not sure what that was) they felt like having a minority lead would mean that race will be discussed all the time and it won't be any fun. 

[Nowhere]

Vanessa is more condescending and pretentious than both Taylor and Corinne put together. That's what I can't stand about her. She's a snob. She is very smug. I don't think she's gorgeous as others have stated. She's boring. She's so guarded with Nick and unsure that she comes across as entitled. Like she knows she's got this in the bag. It is so obvious that she isn't that into it and that is very very selfish considering what Nick has been through. She's treating this as a job interview, not a relationship. She has resting bitch face because she is an actual bitch. I'm still watching and not at the final rose yet but I had to get my thoughts out because this whole date seems awkward and all about her and her job interview. Does she not know that she's supposed to have fun sometimes? This relationship will be all about Vanessa all the time. I feel bad for Nick because Vanessa is not the type that will compromise. She has said as much. He practically begs her to be happy and she just looks at him with this smug look on her face. She's the boss already. 

Btw half the time she cries there are no tears and not a single sniffle. She fake cried with Nick's dad for sure. I don't trust the bitch.

[seasick]

1 hour ago, Wandering Snark said:

As I've said numerous times Vanessa just seems to have her very own happiness black hole that follows her around and sucks the joy out of everything.

Nick is all about being the 'tortured one' too.  The whole damn show was about him feeling tortured either from his rejected past or his fear of rejection or rejecting others or not feeling love, or it not working. My gawd-- Get off the cross.  Of  course he picks the joyless Vanessa.

ETA; Oh yeah--and I forgot the "torture"  of him having to 'fight off his feelings for Vanessa for so long" .   

Edited March 14, 2017 by seasick

[Rubyslippahz]

Agree that Nick and Vanessa were much cuter and more  "in love" acting on Kimmel than ATFR.   I'm glad because the vibe of ATFR was baaad.   Almost uncomfortable.  I was almost expecting Nick to pull a Mesnick with Raven.  All the stuff about their knockdown drag out fights (topics not disclosed) they've already had?!?   And I can't believe that they actually set up the proposal scene with V basically saying, I'm confident Nick will propose, but I don't know if I'll accept it.   Plus when she saw Ravens coat hanging there wouldn't she have known Raven was rejected?  Sigh.

 

I noticed neither Raven nor Rachel had one kind word to say about Vanessa when Chris asked them their reactions to the finale.   On Kimmel, Vanessa said of the other women,  she was close to Danielle M and Taylor(!!)   

 

For the 4  Bachelors that Rachel met, couldn't they have made just ONE of them handsome to give her something to look forward to????  Her outfit was gorgeous though.   

[PTVjones]

3 minutes ago, catrice2 said:

First of all, they are not my friends.  Secondly, I still have no idea what was said..so I don't know of it was racial or ethnic, or if they just perceived it to be that way. Lastly, it does not take being the first or the only to have to endure some type of comment.  Whatever it was, it is my fear for this season.  No comment can be just a comment and every interaction will be viewed through a different lens by SOME.  Hopefully not all., or that SOME will be a few and most people can watch it as just another season with some crazy people. 

What happened: A contestant for the new bachelorette season, who initially received a fair amount of squeals from the audience because he was attractive, walked up to Rachel and said "I want to go black, and I'll never go back." or something to that extent. It was pretty awkward and Rachel handled it as best she could. 

Also, i don't think a person has the the first or the only to receive those kind of comments but for Rachel it definitely applies I mean... he obviously wouldn't have made that comment to JoJo lol. That's all I'm saying... 

[truthaboutluv]

2 minutes ago, Rubyslippahz said:

Plus when she saw Ravens coat hanging there wouldn't she have known Raven was rejected?  Sigh.

To be fair, based on whatever nerves she was feeling, I could see her not even noticing the coat. Also, based on Nick's LCD with them, it looked like they were in separate hotels so Vanessa wouldn't know what Raven was wearing. My guess is they never saw each other. 

[Jax7917]

I think we just witnessed a guy picking his fiancé based on looks alone .. because there is no way anyone would fall in love with that personality . 

Raven definitely isn't as pretty as Vanessa , but her dates looked a hell of a lot more fun than Vanessa's . Everyone sees raven as immature , but honestly orgasm TMI aside , I found her to be leaps and bounds more mature than vansssa . She understood the premise of what she signed up for , she knew how to have a fun time and make the most of their time together rather than fight and pick at every little thing and she didn't cry in every situation . I felt second hand embarrassment at That ATFR . 

Nicks parents are as dull as my wall 

[PetuniaP]

Quote

they felt like having a minority lead would mean that race will be discussed all the time and it won't be any fun.

Yeah, sorry, your friend's co-workers sound pretty ignorant and gross. The demonization of discussing race is exactly why it took the Bachelor franchise so long to finally diversify. I'm sure plenty of people will tune in to watch Rachel find "love", just like on every season of this show...shitty comments like the ones these coworkers made notwithstanding.

Edited March 14, 2017 by PetuniaP

[catrice2]

1 minute ago, PetuniaP said:

Yeah, sorry, your friend's co-workers sound pretty gross. The demonization of discussing race is exactly why it took the Bachelor franchise to finally diversify. I'm sure plenty of people will tune in to watch Rachel find "love", just like on every season of this show...shitty comments like the ones these coworkers made notwithstanding.

You know, I've never asked her what her response was to them when they expressed these concerns.  Unfortunately we don't get to choose co workers and she has a job where they are always doing "team things," and pretty much have to get along and be with each other all the time..and she is the only minority in the group.  I think she started watching the Bachelor with one of them some years ago and it gives them something to talk about at the water cooler. 

[Ms Blue Jay]

I'm excited as hell about Rachel.  She handled those shock entrances with aplomb.  I would be visibly cringing and I'd be uncomfortable and probably make the audience feel that way, too.

I appreciate a lot of your thoughts about Vanessa.  Thank you for articulating for me.  She drives me totally up the wall.  Wonder if Nick is blinded by beauty or is this what he really wants.  I'd tap out even during a conversation with her.  

With Kaitlyn it seemed to be sex and fun all of the time, really, a lighter side of Nick.  With Vanessa, everything is just scary and downward.  Hard to explain better than that.

I have to admit I really did enjoy Nick's season until Corinne left.  Yes, she took up way too much space, but perhaps with the exception of Rachel, the other contestants just weren't interesting?

I'm kind of sad hearing rumours here that Rachel was picked for the Bachelorette all along, so maybe all the attention that Nick paid to her was faked?  Geez, this shit is even more cynical than I could have dreamed.

Edited March 14, 2017 by Ms Blue Jay

[Rubyslippahz]

Am I nuts or did Chris H say something at the start of ATFR about asking Raven about the fantasy suite, but he never actually did ask her anything about it?

Vanessa said she only watched her portion of the fantasy suite episodes.   Would have bern funny when she was talking about Nick cooking her breakfast if Chris would have said , "Oh yeah like he cooked Rachel eggs after they slept together?"  Bwahahaha 

[catrice2]

18 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I'm excited as hell about Rachel.  She handled those shock entrances with aplomb.  I would be visibly cringing and I'd be uncomfortable and probably make the audience feel that way, too.

I appreciate a lot of your thoughts about Vanessa.  Thank you for articulating for me.  She drives me totally up the wall.  Wonder if Nick is blinded by beauty or is this what he really wants.  I'd tap out even during a conversation with her.  

With Kaitlyn it seemed to be sex and fun all of the time, really, a lighter side of Nick.  With Vanessa, everything is just scary and downward.  Hard to explain better than that.

I have to admit I really did enjoy Nick's season until Corinne left.  Yes, she took up way too much space, but perhaps with the exception of Rachel, the other contestants just weren't interesting?

I'm kind of sad hearing rumours here that Rachel was picked for the Bachelorette all along, so maybe all the attention that Nick paid to her was faked?  Geez, this shit is even more cynical than I could have dreamed.

I don't know, I said it all along that I felt like I should like Vanessa, but couldn't figure out what was missing. She is smart, pretty, articulate, just so many great things, and yet I found her boring. To be fair to Vanessa I just don't think anyone really stood out.  Vanessa always seemed to be playing a part to me. I can't put my finger on it.  Hopefully her feelings (and his) are real and they will surprise everyone and stay together. 

Yes, I heard that about Rachel too, but if that is true it doesn't surprise me.  I have always felt, even without producer manipulation, Nick wanted to be seen as the "cool" guy that was "open to diversity."  He wanted that to be part of his "legacy."   That is not to say that I don't think his interest in Rachel was real, but just to say I would not be surprised if it wasn't.  He just seems like he is playing a part, or that he was willing to play any part.  Now he can feel like he "helped" her get chosen as the Bachelorette. 

[JenMcSnark]

33 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I'm excited as hell about Rachel.  She handled those shock entrances with aplomb.  I would be visibly cringing and I'd be uncomfortable and probably make the audience feel that way, too.

I appreciate a lot of your thoughts about Vanessa.  Thank you for articulating for me.  She drives me totally up the wall.  Wonder if Nick is blinded by beauty or is this what he really wants.  I'd tap out even during a conversation with her.  

With Kaitlyn it seemed to be sex and fun all of the time, really, a lighter side of Nick.  With Vanessa, everything is just scary and downward.  Hard to explain better than that.

I have to admit I really did enjoy Nick's season until Corinne left.  Yes, she took up way too much space, but perhaps with the exception of Rachel, the other contestants just weren't interesting?

I'm kind of sad hearing rumours here that Rachel was picked for the Bachelorette all along, so maybe all the attention that Nick paid to her was faked?  Geez, this shit is even more cynical than I could have dreamed.

I kind of liked the relationship Nick had with Corrine, but she was too dog and pony show for me to actually like her when she was on. 

I feel like Rachel was picked early for Bachelorette and then they told Nick, 'hey...keep this girl around until the end, but don't even think about falling for her."  But he was blinded by Vanessa anyway.

I think Vanessa is really pretty and reminds me of the more beautiful Penelope Cruz.  But I actually found Raven prettier than Vanessa.  Probably because of her happy and caring demeanor in large part.  

Edited March 14, 2017 by JenMcSnark
Clarity

[Jax7917]

Exactly . Not to say rachel isn't " good enough " to make it to the final 4, and the reason I think it was planned to take her there has nothing to do with anything bad about her , but everything to do with  everything bad about nick + the producers . Nick is a fame whore . No one can argue that . He definitely wanted to be the guy that put the first black girl in the final 4 so he can leave that legacy behind . 

As for the producers , I saw an interview with chris Harrison a couple of years ago and they asked if there will ever be a black bachelor/Ette and he actually said no because it would change the whole dynamic of the show . So my guess is the network pushed it 

[Armchair Critic]

43 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

With Vanessa, everything is just scary and downward.

Andi is frequently  a snot, maybe because his parents are bland he finds bitchy hot? ;)

Edited March 14, 2017 by Armchair Critic

[seasick]

Nick:  "If I'm able to get engaged and get to that point,  I definitely want it to feel like a love I've never had before.  

Vanessa:   "Are you ready to propose?"   (in other words--is your mind made up? do you feel 'that love'? for me--hopefully? ?)  

 Nick:  "Well the week's not over yet. " 

Okay--at that point I would have been OUT!!   OUT!  You say you want to propose to someone you're madly in love with but --not feelin' it yet???  The.  week's. not.  over.  yet???  What..? two more days left to choose one and fall "madly in love"?   

This is doomed.  Any woman--and especially the the very 'special and superior" Vanessa---would want to feel as though he had fallen hopelessly in love and was just playing out the rest of the show.  She wants to  feel their relationship is "special and different"  --and he has flat out told her it is not. She is one of two women left and the jury is still out.   Sooo... On 'Tuesday' you don't know...but on 'Thursday' you're going to be in love like never before and proposing.  Yeah okay.  

And of course all his neurosis about having to guard his feelings because of his damaged goods status.  Talk about someone who is "emotionally unavailable".    How long is he going to carry Andi and Kaitlyn's skeletons around?   

He doesn't love her and she resents the hell out of him   I'd be surprised if they ever see each other again after the NYC tour.

[Hpmec]

Nick looked like he is so over playing the part of The Bachelor and is looking forward to stretching his 15 minutes with DWTS and, beyond that, any other way he can finagle to keep his mug on tv. I remember an interview with Trista Wren after her Bachelorette stint in which she stated she was looking for "opportunities" in show business. Didn't work out, but at least she was upfront about it. The "right reasons" for being on this shitshow have little to do with love and marriage and everything to do with unabashed fame whoring. Nick thinks he's mastered it and will inevitably be sadder and wiser when he's yesterday news and the phone isn't ringing. 

Edited March 14, 2017 by Hpmec

[seasick]

1 hour ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I have to admit I really did enjoy Nick's season until Corinne left.  Yes, she took up way too much space, but perhaps with the exception of Rachel, the other contestants just weren't interesting?

I'm kind of sad hearing rumours here that Rachel was picked for the Bachelorette all along, so maybe all the attention that Nick paid to her was faked?  Geez, this shit is even more cynical than I could have dreamed.

I enjoyed Corinne too, and I don't usually like the manufactured ones..but Nick was the one that made the season a bore IMO.  He actually seemed depressed and disinterested and just going through the motions.  Hard to look interesting around a cold fish. 

I do think they keep an eye out from the start for potential 'ettes-- but I doubt if they make any proposals until they see how they are perceived on the show.  I don't believe they were specifically angling for a black bachelorette but Rachel just happened to be the most charming, bright and class-act girls they had.  To me she was the obvious choice and not because she is black.    I know others may have felt Raven could have filled the bill but she still creeps me out. 

Kaitlyn, Andi and Deanna were my three least Fave's Bachette's but I later lightened up on Deanna as she admitted she was too much about Graham (who has some allure to women but I still wonder what that's about. He seems to care less about women in general.  

[kazza]

What a complete bore. 

The only time I stopped multitasking during the show (and possibly the season) was when the husky puppies were brought out on Raven's date.

Nothing against Nick as a person, but as The Bachelor, he is just not charismatic enough to carry the show. The Bachelor(ette) formula is simple: combine a charming lead with cloistered contestants in beautiful locations and drama ensues. At least Finland was beautiful.

Rachel has poise for miles and handled those live intros graciously and warmly. It's clear now she was the only choice out of this year's contestants who had the looks, grace, and personality to be a lead. After this season's disaster, no surprise they wasted no time in recovering and moving onto a new season.  

Vanessa is beautiful, but I suspect her strong personality is what drew Nick to her -- and not in a good way. Like others have expressed, he needs to re-assess the type of woman he seems to fall for over and over again. Did Vanessa say she would be staying in LA during DWTS? Regardless ... going to be very interesting, with the long hours of practice. 

Someone above mentioned parallels between Nick/Vanessa and Farmer Chris/Whitney. I could see that - down to the post-show DWTS residency. Whitney, IIRC, though, was well-liked in the house. Vanessa was very obviously not a favorite. 

Overall, looking forward to Rachel's season.

[JudyObscure]

8 hours ago, JenE4 said:

I was kind of hoping the husky puppies were actually wolf pups and it would be The Most Dramatic Finale in Bachelor History when mama wolf arrived on the scene, but alas, a mauling was not The Bachelor First that Harrison promised

Thank you JenE4 for reminding me why I watch this crap.  It's all about the message board laughter.

I'm so glad this season is over. I don't want to ever see Nick or his maudlin family ever again.  Nick's father even talks with his fingers in his mouth like Nick.  Even so I don't wish life with Vanessa on anyone.  Every time she told Chris they were having difficulties "as every couple does,"  I wanted to tell her yes, every couple has fights but it seems like you've had more in the first few months than most have in thirty years. At this point they should have been on the phone swapping childhood stories and other fascinating things like, "You like music! OMG so do I!"  Young couples in love should be making the rest of us gag with glowing descriptions of the other person's special qualities, not making us all depressed.

I've gradually learned that I can usually pick two or three of the top four after they've all climbed out of the limos on episode one.  Sure, there are always a few stunners who get cut for reasons we can't see on TV, but there are rarely  women in the finals  who weren't noticeably better looking than most of the other girls. It was just a little more obvious with Vanessa that she was given the benefit of the doubt because of her looks.  She seemed bitchy and self-centered?  Nick told himself she was a strong woman who challenged him.  Her dates were never as fun as the dates with Raven?  It was just because they had a deeper relationship. Now he's paying the price for thinking with his eyeballs. I know it's  the way the world works, but just once, I would like to see one of the plainer girls, like shark woman, win through her personality. 

[dixiemama]

Ugh ditto to all the comments about Vanessa.  Has she ever had fun for longer than a minute in her life?  I thought it was very telling when Nick came out on the stage and kissed her and she complained that he messed up her lipstick and then she spent the next few seconds fixing it, looking completely annoyed about it, etc.  They will make it through DWTS and then this gig is up.

[b2H]

8 hours ago, 371012 said:

It's the credits, but apparently Nick and Vanessa have already left the building.

Mostly because they needed to catch the red-eye from LA to NYC to do the GMA spot in the morning.  Happens every time.

[RHJunkie]

7 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

Yeah just watched it. I thought they seem way more relaxed, cute and happy. If they had been like that, even while admitting things were challenging, I don't think people would be as negative. But then I remembered that apparently Kimmel is filmed before the AFR. So now I'm wondering if something happened before the AFR and they couldn't hide that they were upset about something. 

eta: Two things I will say that I thought was surprisingly positive was Vanessa's very casual admission that she would move and her genuine excitement about DWTS. I will also say I think some misunderstood them regarding the moving, especially when Nick referenced the logistics factor. I read comments where many thought they were being vague about the living situation because things were so bad but I actually thought they were referring to immigration issues because Vanessa's Canadian. 

I didn't see Kimmel but I wasn't so bothered by the AFR ceremony. I can't take people seriously when they say it was the most awkward AFR they've seen when Jason Mesnick still exists and chose to dump his F1 to get back together with F2 during his AFR. If THAT isn't the pinnacle of awkward on this show, then I don't know what is. I wasn't bothered by the AFR. It seemed real, the questions were all focused on the challenges and that was the intent from the get go so naturally the conversation was focused on that. The chose to highlight that aspect of their relationshpi all season long, so I was completely expecting that that would be the theme of conversation tonight. Why should we feel awkward about someone else being honest about the challenges of a long distance, cross-country relationship where you barely get to see each other, you have to hide your relationship from everyone and have to spend several months holding on to memories from an 8 week relationship where you had to share that guy with other women? Just because the Bachelor bubble is so odd from the real world experiences of dating doesn't mean that the challenges and experiences of real world dating can't apply once the fairy tale vacation has ended. I see a lot of challenges to their relationship and the distance isn't one of them (I also thought Nick's reference was to proper immigration). Vanessa poses the biggest challenge to her own relationship - she really did do herself a disservice by not watching a season in its entirety and understanding the role of the lead throughout the process. The process can make a woman feel needy but she'll find it hard to find a healthy relationship if she's constantly looking for re-assurance in her relationships. It's good to challenge someone, but not at all cost. I also think that Vanessa will fight at all costs to make the relationship work because of how seriously she has taken this process. Not sure if Nick reciprocates...especially if he keeps finding opportunities to keep his face in the spotlight. Best of luck to them, like all Bachelor couples, I always feel they need it. It's not the break ups that surprise me, it's the one relationships that actually last - the show is the easy part.

If there is serious friction right now, I doubt they pull the plug at any point while he's still competing on DWTS.

[PetuniaP]

21 minutes ago, dixiemama said:

I thought it was very telling when Nick came out on the stage and kissed her and she complained that he messed up her lipstick and then she spent the next few seconds fixing it, looking completely annoyed about it, etc. 

I completely missed that! Yikes...have fun being made miserable, Nick. 

Quote

just once, I would like to see one of the plainer girls, like shark woman, win through her personality. 

Me too. But that literally will never happen. I once had a male coworker tell me that a man marries the most attractive woman he thinks he can get, other qualities or lack thereof be damned. This sentiment was then confirmed by every male coworker within earshot. Incredibly depressing. 

[waving feather]

Most Bachelor couples would wait until the next season starts and just before the Premier, they would break up. It seems like that's in the contract or something.

This season has been a disappointment. I expected Nick to be fun and flirty. Like how he was on Andi's season. That skinny ass had some swag. Now he's so emo and has so much baggage. 

And Nick seriously has BAD taste in women, personality wise. Andi, Kaitlyn and Vanessa? Ugh. Ugh. Ugh. Apparently to him, "strong" means argumentative. I'm sure he'd find someone like Desiree Hartsock (an example) too boring, when actually, that type is marriage material. At the end of the day, everyone needs someone kind, considerate and easy-going for life partner. You will have to live with that person. Who really wants a "challenge" at home after a long tiring day of work? Not me.

It annoyed me that Nick cried while rejecting Raven. Stop having a pity emo party all the time, Nick.

Edited March 14, 2017 by waving feather

[DEL901]

Anyone else surprised when Raven accepted an invitation to Bachelor in Paradise?

[oakville]

1 hour ago, kazza said:

What a complete bore. 

The only time I stopped multitasking during the show (and possibly the season) was when the husky puppies were brought out on Raven's date.

Nothing against Nick as a person, but as The Bachelor, he is just not charismatic enough to carry the show. The Bachelor(ette) formula is simple: combine a charming lead with cloistered contestants in beautiful locations and drama ensues. At least Finland was beautiful.

Rachel has poise for miles and handled those live intros graciously and warmly. It's clear now she was the only choice out of this year's contestants who had the looks, grace, and personality to be a lead. After this season's disaster, no surprise they wasted no time in recovering and moving onto a new season.  

Vanessa is beautiful, but I suspect her strong personality is what drew Nick to her -- and not in a good way. Like others have expressed, he needs to re-assess the type of woman he seems to fall for over and over again. Did Vanessa say she would be staying in LA during DWTS? Regardless ... going to be very interesting, with the long hours of practice. 

Someone above mentioned parallels between Nick/Vanessa and Farmer Chris/Whitney. I could see that - down to the post-show DWTS residency. Whitney, IIRC, though, was well-liked in the house. Vanessa was very obviously not a favorite. 

Overall, looking forward to Rachel's season.

Vanessa is from a close knit Italian family. She said no one from her family had moved from Montreal. It's unlikely that she would like living with a reality star in la for more thAn six months. They could always blame immigration issues for the breakup

[b2H]

22 minutes ago, PetuniaP said:

46 minutes ago, dixiemama said:

I thought it was very telling when Nick came out on the stage and kissed her and she complained that he messed up her lipstick and then she spent the next few seconds fixing it, looking completely annoyed about it, etc. 

I completely missed that! Yikes...have fun being made miserable, Nick. 

I'm willing to give her a break.  I've never been on live television before (ATFR is live, remember) and there're no do-overs.  I don't think her reaction was all that over-the-top.  That said, they'll last a little while and then, like Chris and Whitney, go off into their own worlds, rarely to be heard from again.

If anything points out the failure of the whole Bachelor franchise, it's Nick.  Four times.  Still nothing, should this one (inevitably) fold.