S01.E15: Jack Pearson's Son

[Cardie]

11 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

I mean how old was Rebecca in that scene?  Mid thirties?  

45 or 46.

I think the reason Jack went off like he did was not just jealousy or anger that Rebecca was keeping things from him but that she said he was constantly in her way. I think there is plenty of Jack's old man deep down in him. The impulsive grand gestures arise when he feels that part rising to the surface. But this remark of hers, coupled with the fact that she lies to manage his jealousy, must have let him glimpse that ugly truth about himself. He's going to drink to quiet that realization.

Edited February 15, 2017 by Cardie

[Calamity Jane]

4 minutes ago, kirkola said:

I don't think we've seen the real Jack yet.  This "saint" Jack feels artificial.  Like this is what the Big 3, Rebecca, and to a certain extent Miguel, have idealized him to be (only remembering the good parts). 

 

So agree on this.  It would make sense that we're seeing Jack as they remember him for the most part. My kids remember their dad's good qualities and have pretty much completely forgotten how much he irritated them with his OCD tendencies, nagging to wear a jacket even when it was warm, get enough exercise, do things just this way and no other way, etc., etc., etc.  They were 9 and 16 when he passed away, and I think it's completely natural for them to cling only to what's good to remember.  

[ohjoy]

The more I think about  the "grand gesture" complex the Pearson men seem to have, the clearer Kate's attraction to Toby becomes. She said she wanted to "marry a man like dad", and Toby's the self-proclaimed king of grand gestures. Jack was always doing grand gestures for Rebecca, and mini-ones for young Kate. When Kevin thinks "What would Jack do?" he comes up with a grand gesture. Honestly, even Kevin's and Randall's meltdowns are reminiscent of Jack's grand gestures -- just the ones he does when feeling angry or out of control.

[3 is enough]

Quote

I don't usually do this (slow day), but I found an article in the Baltimore Sun that said that Starbucks entered the Pittsburgh market in the year that ended October 1, 1995.  

Thanks.  Then the timeline seems reasonable.  Maybe it wasn't a Starbucks cup, but the white cup and beige sleeve just looked like it to me.  Of course they wouldn't show the actual logo... Although I do remember in the early days they gave you two cups- the sleeves came out later- in 1997 . (slow day for me too)

One thing that really bugged me- you find out your 14-15 year old son is having sex with his girlfriend, tell him "condoms and respect", and blow him off to help his brother who is freaking out over a term paper?  Really?  I am a mother of three, (not triplets), and I understand that they all need something at the same time, but the priorities seem a little screwy to me.  I have noticed in the flashbacks that Kevin and his issues seemed to come second to Randall quite often, and I'm sure that contributed to his adult personality.  

[marceline]

2 hours ago, qtpye said:

Yeah, I have a friend who was adopted, who is a different ethnicity then her adoptive family.  In other words, everyone knew she was adopted just by looking at her family.  Her parents were very good to her, but she felt like she needed to be perfect in order to be "deserving" of the life they gave her.  Like, Randall, she experienced not not so nice remarks and casual racism while growing up.  It took her years to understand that she did not need to perfect and she was a great person in her own right.

I wonder if this is part of the reason why Randall is so reluctant to ask for help, or to say "no".

He wants to live up to perfect Jack and prove that he is deserving of all his advantages, when that is not necessary.

I think that's part of it. Another part might be knowing he was abandoned at a fire station and wanting to be the perfect father. Which is interesting because Jack wanted to not be like his father. Half the people in this show seem to be running from their family of origin in some way.

[kirkola]

3 minutes ago, 3 is enough said:

Thanks.  Then the timeline seems reasonable.  Maybe it wasn't a Starbucks cup, but the white cup and beige sleeve just looked like it to me.  Of course they wouldn't show the actual logo... Although I do remember in the early days they gave you two cups- the sleeves came out later- in 1997 . (slow day for me too)

We had a Starbucks in my town while I was in High School (graduated in 1993).  I remember hating the coffee and coffee in general.  A few years later, I went to work for Books-A-Million and I started drinking coffee.  So both would have been around at roughly the same time as Jurassic Park.  And both had the white cup and beige sleeve bit. 

[Neurochick]

10 minutes ago, Cardie said:

45 or 46.

Rebecca said she dated the keyboard player when they were 19.  That meant she dated keyboard player 25 years before.  Yikes, I can't even remember what I was doing 25 years ago.

[biakbiak]

2 hours ago, Granny58 said:

they did mention Aunt Lisa last night, so she'll be showing up eventually I assume

Yes and her mother which was what k was referring to.

[scarynikki12]

3 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

Rebecca said she dated the keyboard player when they were 19.  That meant she dated keyboard player 25 years before.  Yikes, I can't even remember what I was doing 25 years ago.

That's why Jack letting that get to him is crazy. She dated that guy literally a quarter century ago and only for a couple of months. That is barely a blip on the radar and wouldn't have been long enough to count as a relationship. I think Jack being irrational on this point was on purpose, to start focusing on his flaws, and set up his return to drinking. 

[Guest]

46 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Haha.  Big Sean was just on Jimmy Fallon and seemed very happy and excited to be there.  Then his phone went off.  He didn't answer it, but yes, it happens.  

A fencer had his phone drop out of his pocket during a match at the Olympics.  Heh.  

35 minutes ago, kirkola said:

I don't think we've seen the real Jack yet.  This "saint" Jack feels artificial.  Like this is what the Big 3, Rebecca, and to a certain extent Miguel, have idealized him to be (only remembering the good parts).  There's a hint early on that he's an alcoholic, but it's solved in the first 45 minutes of show time.  And last night, a hint that he has jealousy issues.  And it may just be that I don't really care for Milo V. but Jack seems sort of manic and over the top with his grand gestures.  Almost like it's a bit too much to rent your old apartment and turn it into a romantic night out just for fun.  The cost alone for a family of 3 on one income (even in the 80s/90s) should have been considerable.
 

It was also pretty telling that Rebecca had detailed lists of what she goes through in a day.  If Jack were as involved with his kids as he appears, he should have been aware of their events and functions.  Even Randall has a better grasp of what his girls are doing day to day than it appeared Jack does.
 

Rebecca clearly shouldn't be as short with him as she was, but she also shouldn't have to have the "you lied about your ex" and the "I don't want you to go" conversations after all her planning. 

As for the kids, I see Kate trying to be Rebecca.  Holding the family together (at least in the beginning).  And Kevin is about as manic as Jack.  He does things without thinking of the consequences.  Throwing a fit and quitting the Manny.  Choosing a play and then sabotaging that.  Choosing Sloan and sabotaging that.  Financing a new play and then sabotaging that.  Don't get me wrong, I loved the grand gesture of choosing Randall for once in Kevin's life....but it was a grand gesture.  And poor Randall just wants to prove he belongs.

I doubt they'll go there but I'd be ok with a schizophrenia story.  

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, kirkola said:

Rebecca clearly shouldn't be as short with him as she was, but she also shouldn't have to have the "you lied about your ex" and the "I don't want you to go" conversations after all her planning.

Well, to be fair he didn't about the ex until after all her planning.  It's not like he saved that up, saying hee, hee, I'm going to let her plan and then spring it on her the night before.  I also don't know if it would have been that big of a deal that she had dated him for two months when she was 19 but for 2 things.  1., He told Miguel that he could tell he had the hots for her.  2. It seemed to me, so probably to Jack too, that he brought up the fact that they used to date just to taunt him.  Whether Jack already knew or not, that was very baity behavior.

[betweenthebanter]

I don't know why a part of Jack's personality has to be artificial. We don't have any indication that the flashbacks are meant to be memories glorifying Jack, so until shown otherwise I think everything we see of him is his personality, for better or worse. I'll admit I've found some of  Rebecca's speeches praising Jack in the flashbacks and Jack's speech at the golf club to be a little too out there for me, but I think that throughout the course of show the writers will want the audience to think of Jack as someone that does a lot for his family, but is not as perfect as he tries to be.

Personally, I enjoyed the Jack/Rebecca fight last night and I wasn't really on anyone's side.  I don't even see it as how some people are framing this episode as "Perfect Jack" against "Always Wrong Rebecca". I think the writers could have easily made Jack be "Perfect Husband" that was completely supportive of his wife pursuing her dream, until he found out that she lied to him. That wasn't how they depicted it though and I think that was intentional. Jack was lying about being supportive and when he revealed his true feelings to Miguel he was pretty condescending of why Rebecca would even consider going on tour. He was trying to be the type of "Perfect Husband" that he wanted to be, but  he admitted that that wasn't true to how he actually felt.  I also think that the writers could have framed the ex-boyfriend situation a lot more in Jack's favor, by having that guy have been in a lot more serious relationship with Rebecca in the past. I think that they chose to frame that situation the way they did to show that while yes Rebecca should have probably told Jack, Jack was still overrating for what her relationship to that guy actually was.

In general, I feel that I'm more okay with the writing of Rebecca than a lot of other people are.  I like that she's flawed and while I do want to see Jack's flaws continuously being depicted, I do understand why the writers might give Rebecca more flaws with the kids. Rebecca being alive in present day gives them the opportunity to do a lot more with her story and her relationship with her children, than what they can do with Jack, and I like the fact that she is/might end up up being the more interesting imo of the two. 

Edited February 15, 2017 by betweenthebanter

[tennisgurl]

Oh show, why must you toy with my emotions! So much happened here! I liked a lot of it, and some of it I have confused feelings about. So, basically, classic This is Us.

I am THRILLED that Horse Dick isn't supposed to be Kates new love interest, or that he was unlocking the "real" Kate. The guy is just a spoiled piece of shit, through and through. And snaps for whoever called Dukes parents being the owners of the camp! I have to say, though, this raises some real questions about this camp. So the owners of this touchy feely get healthy camp are also the kinds of people that throw people out because their asshole son says he wants them gone, and allows him to wander around sexually harassing women, telling people how stupid the camp is, and generally being an asshole? How has this place not been sued to oblivion by now? No WAY is Kate the first person he has pulled this bullshit on. I cant imagine no one ever complained. Or at least wrote a really mean review of it online, or wrote a blog about it and put it out there. Kate needs to tell people about this! Post online! Go viral! At least it lead to Toby actually making a good choice and postponing the wedding. I'm still not a huge fan of Kate/Toby, but them getting to know each other better before they get married is a GREAT idea. Also, if I bake the writers some cookies or something, would they write Kate a story that has nothing to do with romance, OR her weight? Pretty please?

Oh Kevin. Your heart was in the right place, but that was a crazy stupid thing you did at the end. Your career is blown, and you majorly screwed over poor Sloan. I get him wanting to be with his brother, and I appreciate him wanting to be there for Randall like he wasn't when he was a teenager, but there has to have been another way! I guess the rest of the family was there and had their phones off, but he could have at least tried to get in touch with his mom or Kate or someone. But he was trying to be Jack, and that was a Jack move through and through. Also, I continue to feel bad for teenage Kevin, even though he was kind of an asshole. It really does seem like he was always the last one his parents thought about, and that led to his attention seeking, self centered personality. I mean, I really felt for him when he finally had his parents attention when they found out he was having sex, only for them to immediately forget about him when they saw Randall freaking out. Not that comforting Randall was the wrong thing, but I could see how much it hurt Keven and reinforced his feelings of being left out. Damn it show, stop giving me complex situations!

As for Jack and Rebecca, we see that Jack wasn't Mr. Perfect after all. And I think that's a good thing. He was a good person, but he was, in fact, a person, who had faults and issues and could be kind of a jerk. I tend to take a middle ground with Jack. I love the guy, but he can be too obsessed with his big gestures, and can be kind of passive aggressive with Rebecca. That being said, I don't think that makes him some kind of controlling monster, it just means he has flaws and his and Rebecca's marriage wasn't always perfect. I don't think either Jack or Rebecca was an awful person, or a perfect person, and that's ok. I've always thought that a lot of Jacks Super Dad stuff comes back to his own asshole dad, and his need to overcompensate in his own role as a husband/father. Like, he would see his dad being an awful dad/husband, and would come up with all the great stuff HE would do as dad/husband, and it makes me a bit manic and a perfectionist when it comes to being a great guy. Its understandable to me. Its a bit like how Randall is. Constantly trying to be perfect, and having a breakdown or lashing out when things start to go poorly. I also found the fight between Jack and Rebecca to be realistic. They were both right and wrong. Jack overreacted and should have been honest with Rebecca from the start, but Rebecca should have been honest with Jack about her bandmate being an ex. Maybe Jack would have reacted badly, but it couldn't have been worse than this.

I appreciate them giving Miguel a bit more characterization. Alright, Miguel, your doing a little better in my book, but I'm watching you.

Edited February 15, 2017 by tennisgurl

[kili]

Quote

Also, Jack's jealousy clearly prevented him from hearing the part of the conversation where the guy mentioned that Rebecca had told him she didn't even want to be married. 

I think that amped up the jealousy. Rebecca says that the relationship meant nothing, but the guy states that marriage was at least discussed. Otherwise, how did he know that it wasn't on the table? There are lots of reasonable ways the topic could have come up, but when you've just discovered that your wife has been working with her ex for months without telling you, is about to go on tour with him and he talked marriage with her?

Did anybody think Miguel's new bar friend looked a bit like Rebecca? I had no problem with Miguel ditching Jack for his new friend. Jack invited him to the bar to find "new friends".

The expression on Young Kevin's face was priceless when Randall broke in with his Oh-no-I-might-not-get-the-best-mark-on-one-paper-because-somebody-else-is-better-than-me-in-one-subject freak out. Kevin can't even get his parents attention when he screws up. Next time Randall has an English paper due, Kevin could plan a kegger.

Man, are horse dude's parents enablers. They'll send home a client because she told off their skeevy son for being skeevy?

[Evagirl]

I think we're going to start exploring a dark part of Jack.  He is obviously (obsessively (?)) in love with his wife.  She said she didn't tell him about the ex because she knew how jealous he was.  So there had to have been a history of jealousy if it made her hold back on that tidbit.  What I would have done is told the ex boyfriend that I'd never told my husband about us and I'd appreciate it if he didn't mention it either.  Apparently only Rebecca and the ex knew about the teenage fling.

Heck, we may find out that Jack wanted a baby to tie Rebecca to him.  He's so over top with the "love-my-wife" stuff.  Who knows, he may feel that he's sacrificed so much of himself for her and the kids, she at least owes him loyalty.  And when the loyalty is brought into question (real or imagined), he goes off the deep end - "Oh poor me.  After all I've done to be a perfect husband and a perfect father, she lies to me."  Good grief, I'm beginning to turn against Jack myself just writing this junk!

[PRgal]

How did Kevin get into Randall's office after hours?  I would assume that Manhattan office towers are HIGHLY secure these days, so no pass, no entry.

[Crs97]

Is two months really enough to call Ben an ex?  8-10 dates 25 years ago and suddenly this was some big relationship Rebecca needed to disclose?  I'd become so passive-aggressive:  "See that guy, Jack?  I don't know his name but I think he and I were alone in an elevator from the lobby to the 13th floor about ten years ago.  Nothing happened, but just don't want you to think I am hiding anything from you."

[Katy M]

6 minutes ago, Crs97 said:

Is two months really enough to call Ben an ex?

He apparently did ask her to marry him, though.  Or at least brought the subject of marriage up with her.  So, either he is a whirlwind kind of guy, or Rebecca is downplaying the RL.  And, it could be either one.    Heck, Kate and Toby have only been dating like 4-6 months and they've been engaged for almost 2 of those.  Add to that, Ben's still hot for her, and yeah, I would say there is enough there to label him an ex.

[catrox14]

13 minutes ago, PRgal said:

How did Kevin get into Randall's office after hours?  I would assume that Manhattan office towers are HIGHLY secure these days, so no pass, no entry.

I would imagine the security guards already know Kevin is Randall's brother, since he's been there before and they probably let him in. 

[qtpye]

I think the part that is bothering Jack, is what is bothering me about the situation...Ben still has the hots for Rebecca.  I do not mind a woman doing something for herself, but I think even she realizes the guy likes her.  He will probably hit on her during the tour.  I do expect she will shut him down, but still it is not a position you would want to voluntarily put yourself in.

[sadiegirl1999]

2 hours ago, bichonblitz said:

Yes, I totally understand that. That's why I thought the story of the nurse refusing William the coke, and Randall having to run home to be totally unrealistic. I was being critical of the writers, not hospice nurses. 

 

2 hours ago, Kohola3 said:

Please take the scene with the hospice nurse as the writers using if for moving the plot forward and NOT as reality.  In hospice we deal with all stages of grief including anger which is frequently leveled at the staff.  We know how to deflect it.  And we do everything in our power to give a quality end of life, not denying anything if at all possible and remaining calm and controlled when people are verbally or even physically abusive.  It comes with the territory.

This is why I am not getting bent out of shape about Beth conveniently being gone during Randall's meltdown or Kevin bolting from his play.

The writers are using some creative license IMO. It's for drama and for the feels.

I'm ok with that. It's why I watch this show!

[catrox14]

Even if the opening night was scuttled, it doesn't have to be the end of the play. That night is a financial loss, unless they don't refund the playgoers. But isn't Kevin financing the play himself? Sloan will be might pissed at Kevin, and might even dump him as the lead but he's still the producer. Sloan seems rather resilient to me.

[PRgal]

17 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I would imagine the security guards already know Kevin is Randall's brother, since he's been there before and they probably let him in. 

I suppose being the (former) Manny helps too...

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, PRgal said:

I suppose being the (former) Manny helps too...

Oh that's funny.  I literally didn't even think about the Manny angle.

[3 is enough]

Quote

The expression on Young Kevin's face was priceless when Randall broke in with his Oh-no-I-might-not-get-the-best-mark-on-one-paper-because-somebody-else-is-better-than-me-in-one-subject freak out. Kevin can't even get his parents attention when he screws up. Next time Randall has an English paper due, Kevin could plan a kegger.

My thoughts exactly.  I get that Jack and Rebecca tried harder with Randall because he was adopted AND a different race, but seriously, Kevin really got the short end of the stick.

[Crs97]

Quote

I think the part that is bothering Jack, is what is bothering me about the situation...Ben still has the hots for Rebecca.  I do not mind a woman doing something for herself, but I think even she realizes the guy likes her.  He will probably hit on her during the tour.  I do expect she will shut him down, but still it is not a position you would want to voluntarily put yourself in.

So she can't follow her dream because one of the members of the band, someone whom she already shut down hard, might not be able to control himself?  I really don't like women being told to temper their own actions because a man might react badly to them.  It reminds me too much of girls being sent home from school because their outfit might distract a boy from learning.  Or asking female victims of assault what they were wearing.

The question boils down to whether Jack trusts Rebecca.  Wasn't this a long-running issue on Friends with Ross, Rachel, and Mark?  (If someone says, "We were on a break" I will have to quit the show.)

[Dreamboat Annie]

I think Randall should call marriage.

[tennisgurl]

21 minutes ago, 3 is enough said:

My thoughts exactly.  I get that Jack and Rebecca tried harder with Randall because he was adopted AND a different race, but seriously, Kevin really got the short end of the stick.

When Jack and Rebecca both turned to attend to Randall freaking out about not getting as good a grade as some other kid, you could just hear Teen Kevin being like "Are you kidding me? I'm going to either have to win a Pulitzer or drive the car through the house to get your attention, aren't I?" Its pretty clear that Jack and Rebecca spent more of their time on Randall and Kate, thinking they were the kids that "needed" more attention. Kevin can be a jerk (especially Teen Kevin) but I can see why he has so many resentment issues. I'm sure Jack WOULD be proud of him for putting Randall before himself.

[Clanstarling]

2 hours ago, Evagirl said:

WHAT IT . . . we're intentionally being misled.  Suppose Kevin did step out on that stage - eventually.  And him running to Randall's (unlocked/unsecured) office building happened later rather than during the play.  Too far fetched?

Well, the time on Randall's big clocks was a few minutes before 8:00 - which I imagine is the usual theater start time. So I don't think there was any misleading, but who knows.

25 minutes ago, 3 is enough said:

My thoughts exactly.  I get that Jack and Rebecca tried harder with Randall because he was adopted AND a different race, but seriously, Kevin really got the short end of the stick.

Having two parents present should have meant that one deals with Randall's breakdown (pretty serious and immediate problem) and the other with Kevin's situation (serious, but not immediate). At least, that's how the mister and I would handle it. Triage - and split the responsibilities.

18 minutes ago, Crs97 said:

So she can't follow her dream because one of the members of the band, someone whom she already shut down hard, might not be able to control himself?  I really don't like women being told to temper their own actions because a man might react badly to them.  It reminds me too much of girls being sent home from school because their outfit might distract a boy from learning.  Or asking female victims of assault what they were wearing.

The question boils down to whether Jack trusts Rebecca.  Wasn't this a long-running issue on Friends with Ross, Rachel, and Mark?  (If someone says, "We were on a break" I will have to quit the show.)

Yeah, telling a woman she shouldn't do this or that because men can't control themselves is BS imo. I agree that it is all about trust. As shown so far, Rebecca hasn't done anything worthy of distrust (and I'm not a Rebecca fan, ya'll). You can still trust that your partner, even while feeling some jealousy.

I liked the comparison of Toby's reaction to jealousy inspired by a douche, to Jack's reaction of the same. While Toby may be similar to Jack with grand gestures, he sure responded differently. Though, he and Kate are a fairly new item with fewer relationship hot buttons.

Despite all of that, Jack and Rebecca's argument felt like a real marital argument, though they each went to what I think of as "the nuclear option" - saying things that couldn't be unsaid and would have a long term impact on their relationship.

[SuzieQ]

8 hours ago, Kohola3 said:

Yep, a fat suit.

 

Oh wow!! Thanks for that! I would have never known.  He looks like a different person.

[Clanstarling]

Oh, one random thing. Though I love "Bring it to me" as a song, it seemed an odd choice to use when Rebecca says "for you lovers" (or something like that), since it's a song about someone whose lover has left them (here's the first verse and part of the second).

If you ever change your mind
About leaving, leaving me behind
Oh, oh, bring it to me
Bring your sweet loving
Bring it on home to me
Yeah (yeah) yeah (yeah) yeah (yeah)

I know I laughed when you left
But now I know I've only hurt myself

[Katy M]

5 hours ago, Katy M said:

Remember Jack and sophie are having sex.  So, hopefully, they're at least 15, 16 would be better.

I just realized I said Jack and sophie were having sex.  that certainly puts a new spin on, well, everything. LOL.

[methodwriter85]

 I lived about 5 hours away from Pittsburgh in a podunk state, and I remember drinking bottled Frappuccinos during the summer of 1997, which is less than a year after the show takes place. I was 11, and it felt like such a grown-up thing to do.

I did kind of wonder about the bacon cheeseburgers, because it feels like the "put bacon in everything" is more of a recent craze, but then again, I'm sure they had to have been around, if not as popular. I kind of wish they had a Primanti's Pittsburgh sandwich, but the show really doesn't do much with the setting. (Which is a shame- I know 30-something made an effort with the Philadelphia setting including shipping in WaWa containers.)

As I said in the Nostalgia thread, I did squeal a little bit over the flannel they put Teen Kevin in, because in the previous Teen Triplet episode, he had more of a Circa 2000 vibe. Teen Kate looks more or less right for 1996, while Randall sticks to his preppy cardigans because that's what he's comfortable with.

I have two sisters that are pretty close to the age of the Big 3 (One was born in January '81, the other was born in April '82) so I'm pretty familiar with how teenagers dressed back then. Kevin's jeans could be baggier but overall, he looked like a guy from 1996.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

5 hours ago, Kohola3 said:

Quote

Let the dying man have a coke, for god's sake. Wasn't she there to basically make him as comfortable as possible during his last days? 

Please take the scene with the hospice nurse as the writers using if for moving the plot forward and NOT as reality.  In hospice we deal with all stages of grief including anger which is frequently leveled at the staff.  We know how to deflect it.  And we do everything in our power to give a quality end of life, not denying anything if at all possible and remaining calm and controlled when people are verbally or even physically abusive.  It comes with the territory.

I don't understand how William got the nurse out of the house so that he could lock the door on her.

[DayGlorious]

8 hours ago, Katy M said:

He apparently did ask her to marry him, though.  Or at least brought the subject of marriage up with her.  So, either he is a whirlwind kind of guy, or Rebecca is downplaying the RL.  And, it could be either one.    Heck, Kate and Toby have only been dating like 4-6 months and they've been engaged for almost 2 of those.  Add to that, Ben's still hot for her, and yeah, I would say there is enough there to label him an ex.

Ugh, I hated this part of the episode so much because it made me hate three characters at the same time when I typically only have the capacity for one. 

Ben didn't say he asked Rebecca to marry him, IIRC. His words were that she said she never wanted to get married. That's hardly an uncommon sentiment from a 19-year-old, and probably more so in the hippie years when she came of age. It's certainly not worth mentioning to that person's spouse 20-something years and 3 kids after the fact, nor is a 2-month relationship. Ben's feelings for Rebecca were blatantly clear from the very start, when he introduced her to the band by her maiden name. Dissing Jack to Rebecca at practice, then trying to make him jealous by casually bringing up the ancient past, was a pretty blatant attempt to undermine their relationship. Having played that game once myself in the long-ago past, I know it anywhere, and it's all here. 

None of this really excuses Jack's behavior. He knew all along that Ben had a thing for her, but instead of asking Rebecca about it early on or expressing his reservations, he seethed quietly until he blew up. Someone with more confidence, more maturity, or better role models would have been able to swallow the jealousy with the realization that at the end of the night, Rebecca was going home to HIM, not Ben. That she married HIM, not Ben. Instead, he fell prey to Ben, who was all too willing to exploit his vulnerabilities for his own gain. In doing so, he evidenced that he is his father's son. And with that, his grand gestures suddenly feel all too sinister, like flowers after a black eye.

And then there's Rebecca, who was and still is my least favorite character on the show. Poor martyr-complex harpy Rebecca, who never gets to do ANYTHING for herself. I bet you think I've forgotten you, Rebecca. Guess again. When you become a parent, free time and dreams go out the window no matter how talented you think you are. I'm about your age, and most of my musician friends have kids now. They've quit bands because Little League games and Cub Scout meetings took priority over practice. They've sold guitars to pay for braces or ER copays or soccer camp. They've gone to Disney instead of touring because even though it's extortionate, vapid crap, their kids love it. That's just what you sign on for when you become a parent. Your wants and needs will never come first anymore, and if you can't handle that, then do what I did: just don't freaking have kids, end of story, period, yay birth control. Frankly, you are lucky that sacrifices like the ones I mentioned are the only ones you have to make. In an age where single and divorced parents are common and most intact nuclear families need two incomes just to keep their heads above water, you have no job besides being an okay singer for a mediocre cover band at some crappy yinzer bar, and your family still has a newly renovated house in a decent neighborhood and a kid in private school. A kid you CHOSE to adopt, I might add. People deal with far, far more than you and whine about it far, far less. But getting back to that singing thing...don't even try to tell me that the ONLY band you POSSIBLY could have joined to live out your fantasy of people caring about your music is Boner's...I mean, Ben's. If we all knew from the start that Ben had the hots for you, surely you did as well. And it was really admirable that you shot him down when he dissed Jack and all, but the way you look at him when you play, even when your husband's in the room? Total mixed messages there, and it's hard not to fault him for keeping the flame alive when everyone in that place thinks he's your husband. And no, that ain't "part of the show." Those people aren't paying you to be an actress. They're paying you to sing played-out sappy love songs so they can go home and bust soap dishes off the bathroom wall. As for your error of omission, that's certainly innocent and forgivable in the context of someone who exited your life long ago, never to return. But when it's your bandmate, who CLEARLY has a thing for you, AND you're about to spend 5 weeks on the road with him? Nothing less than full disclosure with veto power is acceptable in a case like that. Sorry, Rebecca, but you...are...the weakest link. (Oh, yeah...one more thing...how have you managed to keep in touch with Ben for 20+ years in pre-social-media times without Jack knowing about him and vice versa? Hmmm?)

Edited February 16, 2017 by DayGlorious
grammar

[ItCouldBeWorse]

10 hours ago, Katy M said:

Speaking of kids.  Where are Randall's?  We know that he dropped them off at school because it made him late to work.  But, did anybody pick them up?  That's not the hospice nurse's job. 

I understand that Beth was in a rush, but couldn't she have dropped the girls at school before heading to the airport?  She knew that Randall was waiting at home for the nurse to arrive.  Why wouldn't she want to just get the kids to school?

8 hours ago, Biggie B said:

Wherever Randall and Beth live, it's pretty darn close to Manhattan, in that Randall was able to leave work, deal with William/hospice nurse, and then get back to his office in what seemed to be a fairly short period of time. And same with Kevin: he was able to get from Randall and Beth's home (he's still staying there, yes?) to Randall's office in the city, and then to Miguel and Rebecca's home and then back into the city to prep for the play, all in what seemed to be a compressed amount of time.

As to the geography of the show:

We now know that Randall works in NYC, within running distance from an Off-Broadway theater.

Kevin is able to easily go back and forth to Rebecca and Miguel's house from NYC.

Rebecca and Miguel can easily get to the theater in NY .

Kate can get from the camp in upstate NY to Toby's hotel, presumably in NYC, with time to shop, etc.  Also, this was the day after Toby visited her, so wasn't he going to see her the next day at Kevin's premiere?  Why did he waste time going upstate? Or was she not planning to leave camp to go to the premiere before she was asked to leave? 

Edited February 16, 2017 by ItCouldBeWorse

[birkenstock]

I'm thinking that Randall and Beth would have arranged for a babysitter to pick the girls up after school.  They already needed one since they planned to go to Kevin's play.  It would have been logistically easier to make a change of plans in the morning to have the sitter pick up the girls rather than Randall leaving the city, picking up the girls, waiting for the sitter and then heading back out to the play. 

I'm a Sanjay fan now. I was really didn't like him when he was introduced, but thought it was kind of him to step in and review the numbers when he saw Randall breaking down.  His facial expression showed concern rather than smugness. An asshole would have waited a few more minutes of flailing and then act like he saved the day.

I think that Kevin running to be with Randall was nice story progression for the brothers.  However, I wanted his opening night to be a success and he hurt a lot of people when he left the play. I would have preferred if he told Rebecca what was going on and she could go to Randall.  It would have shown selflessness on Kevin's part because he wouldn't have his mom on opening night and would potentially move Randall and Rebecca's reconciliation forward too. 

The weight loss camp was a complete waste of time and the story arc went too fast.  Kate's shown that she can stick up for herself and has a sense of worth so I didn't think it was character growth for her to tell off Duke.  How would Duke justify Kate's expulsion from the camp?  I needed a scene with the owners and for Kate to explain to them what's been going on.  I don't think it was Kate's job to protect other women, but that jerk shouldn't be able to harass anyone again.  I also don't think that Kate would intentionally miss Kevin's opening night. 

[ItCouldBeWorse]

8 hours ago, scarynikki12 said:

One thing I noticed about these characters in general but also with regard to this episode is that they all need therapy.  Kevin needs it for his pre-opening night freakouts, Kate needs it to help her achieve her weight loss goals now that the camp is done, Randall needs it to help him deal with the stress in his life, and they all need it in general.  TV doesn't like to show characters having therapists (even though almost everyone I know in real life has one, if only to have an objective listener, and all find it tremendously helpful) but The Big Three need it.  Toby certainly needs it, given how he behaved at group and the camp and his obvious insecurities.  Rebecca needs it for her unexpressed anger at putting her life on hold to take care of Jack and the kids and Jack for sure needed therapy but I don't think he ever got it.

I think it's pretty normal for actors to have jitters on opening night, and a television actor feeling insecure before his first Off-Broadway performance?  He'd be pretty full of himself if he didn't have some jitters.  I'm sure he has plenty of other issues, though.

[Cardie]

1 hour ago, DayGlorious said:

And with that, his grand gestures suddenly feel all too sinister, like flowers after a black eye.

Yes! It occurred to me after reading this thread that this is just what abusive drunks do when they've sobered up, promising that they'll never do it again.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

9 hours ago, Racj82 said:

10 hours ago, bichonblitz said:

I also do not think that in the state of mind Randall was in, he would have the where with all to call his brother just to tell him he wasn't going to be able to make it to his play.  

It's completely in keeping with his character even in that state. That call was basically him on auto pilot doing another thing he knew needed to be done. He probably doesn't even remember the phone call.

Remember, he asked Kevin why he had called him, even though he had placed the call?

 

10 hours ago, Biggie B said:

I did wonder who was watching Randall and Beth's daughters...Randall was melting down in his office, Beth was at her mother's side...I guess they must have a sitter or friend/neighbor who can jump in in an emergency. William's not up to the task, of course. 

As to who was watching the kids after school, I am going to assume that since this was not a play for kids, there was a pre-arranged babysitter who was coming to the house to watch the girls (and William) in order for Beth to leave their home and meet Randall for dinner before the play.  If the curtain goes up at 8, they would want to be at dinner by 5:30, and since they wouldn't want 2 cars in the city, Beth would have to allow sufficient time to take the train in (from NJ?), so she would leave home by 4.

ETA what birkenstock said:

I'm thinking that Randall and Beth would have arranged for a babysitter to pick the girls up after school.  They already needed one since they planned to go to Kevin's play.  It would have been logistically easier to make a change of plans in the morning to have the sitter pick up the girls rather than Randall leaving the city, picking up the girls, waiting for the sitter and then heading back out to the play. 

Edited February 16, 2017 by ItCouldBeWorse

[HeyThere83]

8 hours ago, Racj82 said:

It wasn't as quick as you are making it out to be either. They had the breakthrough during the fight like I said but it didn't magically heal them. They are just in a better place. A place where Kevin could actually be there for Randall in a way he wasn't before at least. But, they aren't best buds. It's not all under the bridge. I never got that impression anyway. This is also much more than that. We've been watching Kevin evolve all season into a more responsible person. This is a extention of that. Issues aside, they are still brothers.

I am trying to recall when else this issue was touched on by them after the fight and I can't. I remember they went home that night, watched the Manny together and shared some laughs. Since then Randall has been preoccupied with William and his family and Kevin went off to do whatever with Olivia and Sloane. For me, 1-2 episodes is very quick for something that supposedly was such a big deal for most of their lives. The show was so anxious to get to the next big tearjerker moment that it didn't matter how silly (to me at least) the way in which Kevin had another big realization. It didn't ring true to me, especially because I think the writing for Kevin has been erratic and sloppy. But I think this had more to do with advancing the plot in terms of Kevin and Sophie rather than further exploring Kevin and Randall. And of course to provoke tears. It is OK to tell a story without tears flowing every other minute but they seem afraid to do that.

[marceline]

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I would imagine the security guards already know Kevin is Randall's brother, since he's been there before and they probably let him in. 

In Manhattan? Even at my office in Cleveland, someone would be called to come down to the lobby and retrieve a visitor. 

I don't mean to harp on it but every time someone shows up to Randall's workplace unannounced I get pulled right out of the show. I would've bought Kevin's run to Randall if he'd had a security guard or two following behind him. Or better yet, if we'd been shown a scene of him saying "I'm Randall Pearson's brother and I got a phone call from him that makes me think he may be in danger."

[Lady Calypso]

3 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

When Jack and Rebecca both turned to attend to Randall freaking out about not getting as good a grade as some other kid, you could just hear Teen Kevin being like "Are you kidding me? I'm going to either have to win a Pulitzer or drive the car through the house to get your attention, aren't I?" Its pretty clear that Jack and Rebecca spent more of their time on Randall and Kate, thinking they were the kids that "needed" more attention. Kevin can be a jerk (especially Teen Kevin) but I can see why he has so many resentment issues. I'm sure Jack WOULD be proud of him for putting Randall before himself.

Agreed. The fact that Jack went to calm Randall down isn't the problem. He saw one of his sons having a legitimate panic moment which he may have seen plenty of times before and he moved to calm him down before it got worse. But the fact that BOTH Jack and Rebecca just left right after without finishing the conversation with Kevin is the wrong part. Hey, even adult Kevin didn't have Rebecca at her own house to calm him from his anxieties. It's not her fault for being there but once again, no parent/child moment for Kevin with either of his parents! It's freaking Miguel! I will laugh if Miguel gets more speeches to Kevin than Jack or Rebecca. So far, I count 1-1 (Jack's speech to never leave Kevin out back in The Pool to Miguel's speech to Kevin now) so odds are not looking good on the Pearsons. 

4 hours ago, qtpye said:

I think the part that is bothering Jack, is what is bothering me about the situation...Ben still has the hots for Rebecca.  I do not mind a woman doing something for herself, but I think even she realizes the guy likes her.  He will probably hit on her during the tour.  I do expect she will shut him down, but still it is not a position you would want to voluntarily put yourself in.

I'd have to say "So what?" to this. Rebecca doesn't need to stop what she's doing because a guy has the hots for her and her husband is jealous. Ben likes her. She doesn't like Ben. It's not like he's going to win her over during the tour if Jack isn't around to remind her how much she loves him and why they got married. She won't be unfaithful here, but Jack seems to think so, or else he wouldn't get super paranoid over it. Rebecca is capable of shutting down a guy's advances. She's done it once before. She doesn't have to give up something that she loves just because her ex is interested. If that's the case, then she should have never joined the band. 

Jack's problem is that he doesn't seem to trust Rebecca in this situation. That is what he's insinuating when he got upset at finding out Ben/Rebecca were a thing, but also before, when he didn't want her going on the tour to begin with because of Ben. It's actually a fascinating side to Jack that really displays one of his biggest flaws to date. Rebecca even knew that Jack would make the Ben thing a bigger deal, so I don't really blame her for keeping it to herself. Ben's the one who decided that he was going to "blurt" it out to Jack right before the tour, most likely a manipulative move to cause tension, and it did. He played Jack like a fiddle, and it worked. 

4 hours ago, Katy M said:

He apparently did ask her to marry him, though.  Or at least brought the subject of marriage up with her.  So, either he is a whirlwind kind of guy, or Rebecca is downplaying the RL.  And, it could be either one.    Heck, Kate and Toby have only been dating like 4-6 months and they've been engaged for almost 2 of those.  Add to that, Ben's still hot for her, and yeah, I would say there is enough there to label him an ex.

It's interesting because even Rebecca told Jack that she doesn't consider Ben her ex boyfriend because they went out for "like, two months" when she was 19. She seemed to actually believe that when she said it, even if she did say later on in their fight that she didn't say anything because she knew how Jack would get. But I truly believe that Rebecca didn't consider her and Ben a serious thing while he clearly did.

[3 is enough]

Funny that there is no emphasis on the Randall-Kate relationship at all.  At least none I can think of offhand.  Something for next year?

And I'm sorry, but the way they handled Kevin continues to bug.  You find out your 15-16 year old son is having regular sex with his girlfriend and all you can say is condoms and respect?  Really?  No discussion of the comparatively high failure rate of condoms, compared to other forms of birth control? And then to totally abandon the discussion to tend to Randall's panic attack?  I understand having to intervene before Randall totally lost it, but at the very least tell Kevin that the discussion was not over.  

Edited February 16, 2017 by 3 is enough

[SimoneS]

I finally caught this episode. I loved Kevin going to Randall. Yes, it was horrible what he did to his career and Sloane and so over dramatic, but in that moment, he chose his brother like his father would. Randall was falling apart and Beth wasn't there. It just broke my heart watching Kevin hold Randall as he cried.

My Toby love continues unabated. He is such a good guy. Kate is lucky and she finally is seeming to realize this.

I liked Miguel being there for Kevin.

Jack drinking was oh not so good. I wonder if this is the beginning of his marriage to Rebecca spiraling.

Edited February 16, 2017 by SimoneS

[ItCouldBeWorse]

7 hours ago, DoubleUTeeEff said:

I'm not sure what the compromise is in that situation but he should have spoken up sooner.  

Don't tour for more then 2 weeks max.  Or, maybe tour 1 week per month.

[Dowel Jones]

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Even if the opening night was scuttled, it doesn't have to be the end of the play. That night is a financial loss, unless they don't refund the playgoers. But isn't Kevin financing the play himself? Sloan will be might pissed at Kevin, and might even dump him as the lead but he's still the producer. Sloan seems rather resilient to me.

I'm not familiar with ticket sales for plays, but I would assume that news of the opening night would spread rapidly through the theater crowd, and they might have a real problem selling tickets to future performances.  Add to which, Sloan is likely to tell him to FOAD for embarrassing her in front of the crowd and the NYT critic.  She might be able to salvage something but not with him in association.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

7 hours ago, Katy M said:

8 hours ago, 3 is enough said:

So last night Miguel mentioned Jurassic Park, which came out in June 1993, which would, I guess, put the date as Valentine's Day 1994. I keep getting mixed up. Were the kids born in 1979 or 1980? 1979 would make them 14 1/2. If the Jack dying when they were 15 theory is right, it is coming soon.

They were born in 1980.  I hope they're older than 14 in that flashback.  Remember Jack and sophie are having sex.  So, hopefully, they're at least 15, 16 would be better.  Haven't you ever mentioned a movie more than a year after it came out?

I assumed that they were in their junior or senior year since Randall's school was ranking the kids.  That's usually for the purpose of college applications (although it would make more sense at the very end of junior year or at the end of first term of senior year;  February of senior year is too late for college applications.)  So they'd be 16 1/2 or 17 1/2.

[ShadowFacts]

23 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

It's interesting because even Rebecca told Jack that she doesn't consider Ben her ex boyfriend because they went out for "like, two months" when she was 19. She seemed to actually believe that when she said it, even if she did say later on in their fight that she didn't say anything because she knew how Jack would get. But I truly believe that Rebecca didn't consider her and Ben a serious thing while he clearly did.

I think it's relevant information that would have made sense to reveal at the time she started singing with that band , but she didn't because as she said twice, she knew he would go spinning.  That tells me he has spun out of control before.  From Jack's possessive viewpoint, she looks like she is hiding something because it was something.  So she was kind of in a bad spot.

6 minutes ago, Dowel Jones said:

I'm not familiar with ticket sales for plays, but I would assume that news of the opening night would spread rapidly through the theater crowd, and they might have a real problem selling tickets to future performances.  Add to which, Sloan is likely to tell him to FOAD for embarrassing her in front of the crowd and the NYT critic.  She might be able to salvage something but not with him in association.

Plus Kevin already has the reputation of having recently walked off his t.v. show, so this is going to be news beyond the theater world.

[Emme]

19 hours ago, biakbiak said:

We haven't seen Beth's family either, hell I don't remember if they mentioned anyone other than her dead dad. The show has tons of characters and is also delving into the past of course their are storylines we aren't going to see at this point. 

Maybe Sophie is Miguel's daughter... is that possible?