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ElectricBoogaloo

S03.E10: Chapter Fifty-Four

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This is serious BS. I knew this was going to happen and I just wanted to see how it's going to play out. They might have as well had him be hit by a bus, like George on Grey's Anatomy. So what was with the whole career change thing that was done so incredibly poorly I thought there had to be some twist to it? None of it makes any sense now and it's just very poor writing. 

I like every character on the show (at least those who are among the regulars), but Michael and Petra the most. They add something special to the show, the way I see it. And yeah, now he's gone and I don't like the direction her character has taken ever since she woke up, so I don't really think I'm in for this show anymore. I might still give it another shot, but it's definitely never going to be the same for me again.

Oh, and I am so OVER Luisa and Rose. It's not funny, cute or charming. It's downright pathetic and disturbing. 

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And no, I don't trust the writers to make it work, not anymore. Having Michael come back from the dead and then die for real just 10 episodes later is horrible writing. Introducing several characters and giving them huge screen time only for their storylines not to go anywhere is not good writing. Rehashing the same old (already absurd) storyline like Luisa/Rose over and over and bloody over again is certainly crappy writing. 

am interested in seeing how Jane copes with the loss of the love of her life, as well as what goes in the lives of other characters I've grown to like so much, but I simply don't believe anymore they will be able to pull it off. 

Edited by Joana
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As disturbing as I find Luisa and Rose, I think the fact that they are going to such extreme lengths to continue their relationship by deceiving Rafael and everyone else is just further proof that they are in a really unhealthy relationship.

Hee, I, too, am waiting for, "Is this because I'm a lesbian?"

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And I'm not buying the "They have to keep Jane single to make things interesting/Rafael is THE ONE and it was always going to be him in the end/happy couples don't work etc." excuses. I already have that on pretty much every TV show ever. I don't need to watch JtV for it. I thought this show was different and braver than most others and that's what's kept me hooked. And since it's now pretty clear the writers are not as creative and imaginative as I thought they were, I really don't know there's any point in watching the show further. Seeing them go all Ross/Rachel with Jane and Rafael is not something I'm particularly interested in. 

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I think this show has some good acting, and some of the writing between individual characters is good, but plot wise, I have never felt it was as different as it claims to be.  Usually the plots are right out of the telenovela , not some new take on the genre like it is presented.

  The one thing it was good at is toning down some of the personal relationships from the telenovela,style, making them more real.    This is possibly a reason why they should not have done the shock death for Michael, because it is not going to generate the same reaction when his relationship with Jane was presented in a real way, compared to how it would have been if everything about them was presented over-the-top.  

I also agree, it changes the tone of the show.   There is already a lot of doom and gloom (almost anything with Rafeal and Petra is usually pretty dark and depressing), and Micheal and Jane helped counter that - both by adding some happiness and a bit of grounded reality.

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So they went there. I'd heard this was happening a few weeks ago, when it was accidentally (I guess) spoiled by Ivonne Coll, and since Michael's my favorite character on the show I didn't really care to watch if he was gone. I took it off the DVR list and haven't seen it since it came back from the break, so I wasn't sure it had actually happened. But it did, huh? Wow. 

Not bitter or anything (seriously, I'm not--it's just a TV show), but there's just not enough time in the day to watch all the shows out there anyway, and I've been shedding other shows I'm not interested in anymore. But I'll drop in on this forum now and then to see how the general plot plays out. I have to give the showrunner credit for sticking to her vision and her idea for the arc; it's bound to make a lot of people unhappy. But her show, her rules.

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So, I slept on it. Even with all this time to prepare, I think I needed to just sleep on it. First off, I do think that I'm less angry about it now. Jennie Ulman really made a tough choice and followed through on it. I do think her love letter to the fans was a smart move and it was well written. Knowing that it was truly a hard choice and how she knew that fans would be devastated was a little helpful, and the small detail that they talked to grief counselors beforehand to figure out when to jump forward was smart. I acknowledge that this was a move that was smart in terms of the writing. It's a move I've wanted writers to take, where they defy TV tropes and go for the unexpected, and that is what they did here. I mean, it's still on telenovela standards, but they always tried to be different. 

I do think that doing a time jump is smart for the show's tone because they'll want to not disrespect Jane and Michael as a whole and having it three years later does appropriate a good mourning period. I really do see where they were going with this and how they did try to do it with respect (and comparing this move with the How I Met Your Mother creators, this was handled a bit better without belittling the fans). 

However, that being said, that is why I'm going to try the next episode and depending on how I feel, I may be bowing out and binge watching the rest after the season's over. The fact of the matter is that they now have a different show on their hands with this move. They didn't plan for it, but that's what they have. They did make a choice when they decided to kill Michael off. They didn't have to. They had a perfect out with the love triangle, another choice in marrying Jane/Michael. Their choices are what will define the rest of the season and determine what they'll choose to do for their next season. Even without Michael's death in play, time jumps are a huge risk on shows. It could damage their show in the long run. Or it could work out; it really depends, but the added factor of Michael's death does mix things up and potentially not in a good way.

I also stand by my other point that the Jane/Rafael relationship is not going to be as easy to accept with Michael's death looming over them. It still will feel like Michael was killed off for the triangle, which I don't think is true but it's a feeling that will never go away for me. And the added bonus of Rafael being second choice with Michael being gone. It should be a punch to both ends of the triangle. They had the perfect friendly relationship and now it feels like Michael needed to die and Jane/Rafael need to be a romantic couple for them to matter. Also, someone pointed out above that it adds the thought that biological families are more important. Again, I know none of this is what they intended, but this is sadly the reality of their actions.

They chose to kill Michael off because that's how they saw his story ending; they chose to give Jane/Michael perfect bliss and happiness instead of killing him off before they married. They chose to move Rafael on. In hindsight, they were all smart moves, but they will still have to live with the consquences and they'll see if it was really a smart move. I am willing to give the show one chance because they really haven't let me down before. However, it is still a big blow and it is all going to fall on how they handle the next episode. 

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44 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

and the small detail that they talked to grief counselors beforehand to figure out when to jump forward was smart.

This had the opposite effect on me. It irritates me more that they know their show is not equipped* to deal with this type of plot, so they reached out to grief counselors to find the best way to narratively shortcut through the grieving process.

*Just to be clear, my comment (and previous comments) aren't a knock at the writers' talents. Even this episode was very well done and I don't think they're going to ignore Jane's feelings. In fact, I strongly suspect that whatever we do get will he very effecting and sensitive, both in writing and acting. 

But this isn't a dark drama. They're jumping ahead so they can return to show's sunny, optimistic tone and whatever grieving process we do get is intentionally going to minimized. Because they know the show can't stay true to its zippy cheer after they kill the main character's loving husband.

It just doesn't work for me, I'm afraid. If I'm going to watch a show where a significant premise is the windowing of the main character, I'd rather watch a well-done drama that finds pathos in that plot.

Edited by Gin and Tonic
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7 hours ago, chocolatine said:

The doctor on the phone told Jane that it was a blood pressure spike, and it makes sense that his blood pressure was higher due to the stress of the job loss and LSAT nerves, and that the "off" feeling he had attributed to a bad meal was actually something far more serious.

As the foreshadowing went on, I thought it might be something like this. The final thing the doctor said was that the BP spike an aortic dissection -  a rupture of a weak spot on the aorta. This is how my SIL died, as well as Alan Thicke and John Ritter. I'm guessing the bullet created the weak spot somehow.

I liked Michael, and I liked the chemistry Jane. But they've been foreshadowing his death from the beginning, so while the timing was a shock, the fact of it wasn't - at least to me. I was curiously unmoved because he is one of my favorite characters and has great chemistry with everyone. Maybe I'm int he denial stage.

As for the time jump, I don't mind it. I have faith the writers could indeed write a show with Jane going through the grieving process. But I, for one, don't want to endure that show. Touching flashbacks are just fine for me.

Hate the Rose plotline with the fury of a thousand blazing suns.

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5 minutes ago, Gin and Tonic said:

But this isn't a dark drama. They're jumping ahead so they can return to show's sunny, optimistic tone and whatever grieving process we do get is intentionally going to minimized. Because they know the show can't stay true to its zippy cheer after they kill the main character's loving husband.

 

I agree with this, really. Ultimately, I still feel like they probably should have looked at the bigger picture and reevaluated their plan to kill off Michael. As much as I respect the decision to keep with their original plan, I also am getting flashbacks to How I Met Your Mother, where their plan killed the enjoyment of their show, despite the show already done at that point. I have more faith in Jennie Ulman and her team of writers, but it does change everything about this show and Michael's death will be minimized, even if that's not the intended plan. They need to keep their cheer and optimism but they also just killed off a really major character. How could that not change the show's tone? They did put themselves in a bind here and we shall see if they end up changing their plans after these next few episodes. 

I will say that they did leave this episode open ended where they COULD bring back Michael if the backlash is strong enough. From the narrator's "unreliable narrator" speech to not actually seeing Michael flatline to the obscureness of the last few episodes with him and not seeing HIS pivotal moments, they certainly have room to change it up. And honestly, I don't know whether I'd respect them for bringing Michael back or being disappointed that they would have to change their plans and not stick with his death. It's a tough call to make. 

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Fervently praying that during the 3 Years, someone pushed Rose and Luisa off a cliff and we never have to see either of them again. Be happy to watch THAT flashback.

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11 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

This is next level How I Met Your Mother series finale stuff here, except this show is not in its series finale. 

The comparisons to HIMYM are a little bewildering. That show undermined the stated purpose of their own story and pulled the rug out from under their viewers with no warning, making their romantic protagonist look like a selfish asshole in the process. JtV is pretty much doing the opposite of that-fulfilling a long foreshadowed plot point and progressing the story in a way that is mindful of portraying the romantic protagonist in a good light. 

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2 hours ago, Acceleration said:

One thing that I do want to do is defend the writers, because they have shown us, time and time again, that they can and will write compelling stories and arcs for their characters and they know what they're doing. I believe them when they say that the time jump is necesseray and I agree. Mostly because spending a season where Jane is just fresh of the mourning would not move the story forward, because as we know, Jane will never let this go, but she'll be able to deal with this after a while. So I for one, like the time jump and am excited to see where it goes. Now, do I wish for them to reveal that Michael is alive, undercover and faked his death? Sure. But if I can't get that, then at least I can follow Jane on the adventure called her life. And hopefully not with Raf. At least not as I know the character to be now...but who knows, I am one of those people who actually started liking him their second go-around, so what do I know?

Yeah, as sad as Michael's death is, I have a ton of faith in the writers.  This show isn't perfect, but it has been one of the most consistently written shows I've ever watched. If it was a lower quality series, then I'd worry more about killing a favorite character and a time jump, but the JtV writers have earned my trust that they know what they're doing.  And that is shown by how upset everyone is about this death.  Yes, Brett Dier did wonderful work, but a huge aspect of what made Michael and Jane and Michael so beloved was the writing. Michael's never-ending devotion to Jane was the writers. Michael's beautiful vows were the writers. Michael's goofy bromance with Rogelio was the writers, etc., etc., etc. So yes, it's sad right now, but I am also excited to see where they take the series, the new character arcs they create, the new characters they will introduce and the new romances they will write. It's too good of a show to be undone by the death of one character.

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53 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

Hate the Rose plotline with the fury of a thousand blazing suns.

Or nuns, as they would say on the old TwoP forums.

More than anything the return of Rose annoys/disappoints me.  I understand that the return of the villain is soap opera-telanovela 101, but Enough is Enough, and Enough is Too Much, show!

OTOH, must stop a moment to express my love for Alba.  "This isn't my first rodeo"!  Love her, love the relationship of the three = mother, daughter, granddaughter = can the show just be about them?

Question for the eagle-eyed, can anyone tell me if they noticed anything about the room in which we see Jane "three years from now"?  Is it the same room she and Michael have or is it her old room in her old home?

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I am not supposed to cry watching a comedy!  This came as a complete shock to me.  I hate, hate, hate the loss of Michael and Michael/Jane and now I really wish she had been pregnant.  That being said, I think the time jump is a good idea because we can get Jane's grief in small doses, rather than having a completely somber rest of the season.

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35 minutes ago, LaughingOne said:

 Yes, Brett Dier did wonderful work, but a huge aspect of what made Michael and Jane and Michael so beloved was the writing. Michael's never-ending devotion to Jane was the writers. Michael's beautiful vows were the writers. Michael's goofy bromance with Rogelio was the writers, etc., etc., etc. 

So true, and I would argue that the only reason the writers felt free to create such an all-around good guy of a character (and such a healthy functioning romantic relationship for him with Jane) on a telenovela is because they knew he was going to be killed off. Their happy relationship was not sustainable within the genre of the show. I'm glad they decided to have the drama derive from external forces and tragedy, rather than creating an endless back and forth and rotating sides of the triangle.

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This was a heartfelt, heartbreaking, and one of the best episodes of Jane the Virgin in terms of quality storytelling and execution. I was not spoiled so I had no idea this was going to happen, even if the narrator forewarned us in both seasons 1 and 2. I guess I never thought that tptb would follow through with it, but I understand why this is part of their (Jane's) journey and I'm actually excited to see where the show goes from here.  Honestly, I was getting a little bored with the season. As lovely as a love that Jane and Michael shared, it actually surprised me that they got married so "soon" in the series, because there was no where for them to really go. And with campy telenovelas, it's all about the twists and turns and "drama", even in this comedy. 
In any case, Brett/Michael will be missed, and the fact that such a sweet and important piece of Jane's world is now gone, it raises the stakes in where and how Jane and really all of the characters move forward. With such a great loss, it infuses so much life in the show. If that makes sense. 

I appreciate Jennie Urman's note to viewers in it's aftermath. It shows class and compassion, it shows that she gets "it" - that people are invested wholeheartedly and that it matters when characters leave/die. It shows that she respects the work that she does and doesn't make light of this situation, even if it's all make-believe. 

My heart goes out to the Michael and Jane/Michael fans. 

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I wasn't fully paying attention last night (had to rewind to figure out what had happened with Michael) and totally missed Rose's return. That actress is really not very good (I'm perplexed at how she keeps getting good roles), and I'm not excited to have to sit through Rose's shenanigans portrayed by such a lackluster actress. So I hope the three-year jump means no Rose either. (Because when has she ever stuck around for years?)

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Talk about opposing and extreme emotions... I was laughing my ass off with Rogelio's "PENIS PENIS THEY CUT MY PENIS!!!! #cockadoodledont" and then cried like a baby when Michael died. 

I am a Jane/Rafael fan, but I liked Michael very much. I didn't want him to die. I will miss him. If Jane/Rafael was always the writers intentions, I guess killing Michael off and having the series pick up three years later is the only way they could preserve Jane/Michael's love while not making us all feel like Jane is only with Rafael as a second choice (if they ever get together at all). I don't know.

The three years jump is intriguing. Did the writers wanted to bypass Jane mourning, Xo moving out of the maternal home, Rafael in jail, Petra finding her voice as a mother, Rogelio and Darcy's reality TV show... I am sure we will have flashbacks tho, so I am not sure why they would wish to skip over all of that. I guess we will have tow wait and see!

23 minutes ago, elle said:

Question for the eagle-eyed, can anyone tell me if they noticed anything about the room in which we see Jane "three years from now"?  Is it the same room she and Michael have or is it her old room in her old home?

It looked different to me. Could be just the decoration - I couldn't tell if it was the same room/apartment or not.

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3 hours ago, Acceleration said:

I agree.

Now, I can honestly say that for the longest time I was Team Raf, but the work that Brett and Gina put into season 2 made me a believer and I was excited to watch their journey. However, since I knew that Michaels days were limited, because this is a telenovela and the forshadowing has been up on display, I felt that this was the only logical conclusion to go in the story.

It didn't hurt less, but I get it. And I still want Michael back.

One thing that I do want to do is defend the writers, because they have shown us, time and time again, that they can and will write compelling stories and arcs for their characters and they know what they're doing. I believe them when they say that the time jump is necesseray and I agree. Mostly because spending a season where Jane is just fresh of the mourning would not move the story forward, because as we know, Jane will never let this go, but she'll be able to deal with this after a while. So I for one, like the time jump and am excited to see where it goes. Now, do I wish for them to reveal that Michael is alive, undercover and faked his death? Sure. But if I can't get that, then at least I can follow Jane on the adventure called her life. And hopefully not with Raf. At least not as I know the character to be now...but who knows, I am one of those people who actually started liking him their second go-around, so what do I know?

I agree with everything you wrote, especially about the writers. They have yet to disappoint me, so I have faith. 

But I disagree about Raf, as I am a fan of him. :) The episode left us believing Rafael was going to jail, to start over, to be a good role model for his kids. So I am excited to see where he will be three years later.

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I'm a huge fan of Michael and of Michael/Jane, and...I'm fully on the sadness phase of grief, I think. I was spoiled this morning on Facebook, and I literally just sat in bed in shock, until I stared to cry. A lot. I cant stop crying, I just feel sick. I was just so invested in Michael and Jane. They were my favorite couple on TV, being sweet, down to earth, lovable, and were a ray of normalcy in the sea of Telenovela shenanigans. More so, this show was my happy ray of sunshine whenever I felt sad or angry. Now? I just don't know how I feel. I've read Jennies letter to fans, and its a nice sentiment, but I just don't see how this show can ever go back to that. Even with us skipping over the grieving process with the time skip, it will always have Michaels death hanging over it. At least, for me. I guess they felt like Jane couldn't stay in a relationship, and I guess its better than turning Michael into a jerk and breaking them up, but still. Its just heartbreaking to me, and I'm sure I will keep watching the show, but it will never be the same to me. It'll always have that feeling of "You thought this show was a wacky comedy with heart and happiness? Did this show make you feel better when you felt sad or scared? Did this show let you escape your troubles or feel hope? Well, SUCKS TO BE YOU! LIFE SUCKS, DONT FORGET IT!". I know that's not fair, and I'm sure I will eventually feel better about this show, but I just feel so miserable, its the way I feel.

I will have to re-watch in a few days, when I can watch this with more clarity, and can judge it on a storytelling level, but for now? This show broke my heart, and that's hard to forgive.

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Another who's not shocked by Michael's death but who still feels bad for Michael/Jane fans. TBH I was never a big fan of M/J, but I liked that Michael & Raf became friends with and without Rogelio and that Michael loved Mateo. 

Rose's umpteenth resurrection not only makes me roll my eyes to the point of blindness, it pisses me off. A good man is dead because of Rose and Luisa's constant enabling only makes things worse for herself, for Raf and especially for Jane. The more Rose & Luisa suffer, the better.  As far as I'm concerned, it's Rose & Luisa, not Raf, who belong in prison. 

RIP, Michael. 

Edited by DollEyes
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I'm excited for the eventual Jane/Rose showdown - Jane MUST get justice at some point.  Plus, not having Bridget Regan play Rose anymore is going to make it easier for me to hate her with the fire of a thousand suns which makes me happy.

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3 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

As disturbing as I find Luisa and Rose, I think the fact that they are going to such extreme lengths to continue their relationship by deceiving Rafael and everyone else is just further proof that they are in a really unhealthy relationship.

Hee, I, too, am waiting for, "Is this because I'm a lesbian?"

Which I hope that the writer will finally address with something more than just that "wacky, unstable Luisa & Rose's obsessive love for her". It was something else entirely when Luisa didn't know that Rose was a major criminal, but for her to still love, want and pursue a future with her after knowing that:

1) She killed her father.

2) She kidnapped Rafael and Jane's newborn baby.

3) She kidnapped her and held her hostage.

4) She attempted to kill Michael.

They're also attenpting to try and fool Rafael, Jane and their families with another lie.

Luisa says that she wants to try and be there for Rafael, be a supportive sister to him, regardless of them not being biologically related, but how is this possible when she continues to want someone that is out to destroy anyone and everything that matters to him? 

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54 minutes ago, Bouffe said:

I agree with everything you wrote, especially about the writers. They have yet to disappoint me, so I have faith. 

But I disagree about Raf, as I am a fan of him. :) The episode left us believing Rafael was going to jail, to start over, to be a good role model for his kids. So I am excited to see where he will be three years later.

I hope that the "clean slate" does work for the Rafael character. I actually liked the growth that he achieved by being romantically apart from both Petra and Jane. Rafael finding out that he isn't a biological Solano was a great thing for his character. He cannot rely on money to fix things AND he's aware that he has to make better choices in his life, not just for himself, but for his three children. 

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I liked Michael/Brett , but I'm not surprised/not super sad to see the relationship pulled apart for storyline potential.  I don't think the intention is endgame of Jane/Rafael.

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I thought the first half of this season was off. So maybe it was all about giving Michael/Jane fans their payoff, so they stalled out to play that while showing us basically filler.

A big problem with Michael's departure, for me, is the other two male leads aren't strong enough. Jaime Camill is incredibly talented and handsome, but his character's stories have become strained and repetitive, and they don't seem to write for him to maximize his comedy.  Justin Baldoni has relaxed more but his chemistry is better with Yael Grobglas, and I just can't care about the more dramatic parts of his storyline. I guess with him I feel he's more comfortable enabling other characters than he is carrying his own arc. I really enjoyed Michael being a detective and was not on board with him becoming a lawyer. I thought the detective piece really opened up his character and helped propel the plot engine of the various murders, schemes, etc.

I was sick to death of Rose a long time ago, but the show runner absolutely seems to love the character.

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Man! That was awful! I first fell in love with Brett Dier when he had a spot on Bomb Girls so was happy to see him back on a show I watched. Now, he's gone? I thought the foreshadowing this episode was going to lead to him getting sick the day of his exam not dying!

Jane and Michaels argument at the table about memories was so funny to me because I have the same argument with my husband when he claims to know exactly what happened when he was two years old! He swears he remembers it exactly and I'm all, "no way"!

I just don't know how much I want to watch anymore. The three year time jump helps but I still have to hold out hope that Michael faked his death for some reason in order for me to watch.

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What I find really surprising about this development is that the show had put SO much effort into building Michael up, only to have him gone so soon. He wasn't just some guy who happened to be Jane's love interest and who could be easily discarded if the story required so. They well went out of their way to make sure he really is Jane's ideal partner, the person who knows her best and can give her what no other man can. And it worked! Even so many of the hardcore Jane/Rafael fans have warmed to Jane and Michael's relationship a lot over time. I guess this loss would be much easier to take had he always been portrayed as one of the men who've made an impact on Jane's life and not the man who meant everything to her.

I really don't think the show is now going to pretend that Michael never existed. I also have no doubt they're going to respect and honour his memory like his character deserves. It might have not even happened so that Jane and Rafael could be the endgame. Still, it was so incredibly refreshing to see a TV couple that was so happy, yet so realistic and believable, with all the everyday joys and sorrows of a true relationship. And it sucks so much to see it gone, no matter what the writers' motives and intentions were.

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It just hit me that Mateo wont even remember Michael, beyond pictures and videos. He wont even remember his step dad playing with him and his talking sock puppet and taking care of him or anything. Still not doing well.

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I liked Jane and Michael together but I'm not upset by this. I've never shipped any couple on this show. (Somewhere in the last few years I've just stopped shipping altogether. I'm not sure when or why it happened.) At it's heart this show is a telenovela i.e. a soap opera and this was pure soap. I went into this episode somewhat unspoiled. I say "somewhat" because I could tell from the titles of recaps that something big happened but I decided to wait and see. That actually made watching even more suspenseful because I thought they were about to kill Matteo with some kind of illness, then I thought maybe Raf would die when he picked up Matteo from Jane's. Or that Abuela would accidentally run over Tess when they were chasing after her. IOW, I kept waiting for someone to die. 

Michael's death doesn't upset me but the return of Rose does. Why won't they let that story go?

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I do have a weird nitpick with this episode: Jane's calendar graphic at the beginning establishing it was December 20th.  If that's when we are, where are all the signs of Christmas, for this family that has already been established as having many treasured Christmas traditions?

I mean, I understand the problem was just sloppy work from the post department.  But I get so annoyed by timeline things like this.  It would have been so easy to make that calendar say January (and for gods sake, leave the year off!  It's confusing enough that we're a few commercial breaks from a three year time jump that is still going to have us in the present somehow!)

This is going to really annoy me in any future Christmas episodes.  I'll be sitting there waiting for some specific acknowledgement of how Christmas is particularly hard for Jane now, because it's when Michael died, but no such acknowledgment will ever come, because Michael dying at the holidays wasn't a choice of the writers, it was just a detail of what the graphics guy did that no one considered closely enough before it ended up on screen.

(I realize this is me being a little nuts.  This is my thing that I'm insane about.  Try to watch a Law & Order with me.  There's way too many episodes with title cards that give a date in January and then cut to characters in T-shirts walking through a New York City park filled with lush green trees.)

Edited by JyDanzig
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1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

It just hit me that Mateo wont even remember Michael, beyond pictures and videos. He wont even remember his step dad playing with him and his talking sock puppet and taking care of him or anything. Still not doing well.

*sob* why did you have to bring that up??

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2 minutes ago, JustaPerson said:

*sob* why did you have to bring that up??

*sobs* I need to share my pain with people who understand! *sobs harder*.

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7 hours ago, stagmania said:

The comparisons to HIMYM are a little bewildering. That show undermined the stated purpose of their own story and pulled the rug out from under their viewers with no warning, making their romantic protagonist look like a selfish asshole in the process. JtV is pretty much doing the opposite of that-fulfilling a long foreshadowed plot point and progressing the story in a way that is mindful of portraying the romantic protagonist in a good light. 

I think the comparison is because both shows planned to kill off characters from the beginning and stuck with that decision.  HIMYM even filmed those final scenes with the kids during season 1. I think HIMYM didn't anticipate that Robin would (arguably) have better chemistry with Barney and that Ted and the mother would be so amazing together. A lot of people I know thought that the reality of the mother would never live up to the build-up over the course of the show, but the actress was perfect for the role and did an amazing job, imo. Similarly, I think Jane and Michael had even better chemistry than anticipated and many viewers ended up loving Michael more than expected (again thanks to the actor doing a great job with the role).

I think the difference, however, is in the execution of the decision. I think you described that difference perfectly.   I wish HIMYM had made a different decision, but if they wanted to stick with it, they should have found a better way to do it. I think JtV did a good job preparing us for Michael's death and it looks like they will be much more respectful of the character and of the fan's feelings toward the character.

The only question for me will be how well the time jump works with respect to the remaining characters.  I'm willing to give TPTB and the writers a chance. 

Edited by EVS
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2 hours ago, JyDanzig said:

I do have a weird nitpick with this episode: Jane's calendar graphic at the beginning establishing it was December 20th.  If that's when we are, where are all the signs of Christmas, for this family that has already been established as having many treasured Christmas traditions?

I mean, I understand the problem was just sloppy work from the post department.  But I get so annoyed by timeline things like this.  It would have been so easy to make that calendar say January (and for gods sake, leave the year off!  It's confusing enough that we're a few commercial breaks from a three year time jump that is still going to have us in the present somehow!)

This is going to really annoy me in any future Christmas episodes.  I'll be sitting there waiting for some specific acknowledgement of how Christmas is particularly hard for Jane now, because it's when Michael died, but no such acknowledgment will ever come, because Michael dying at the holidays wasn't a choice of the writers, it was just a detail of what the graphics guy did that no one considered closely enough before it ended up on screen.

(I realize this is me being a little nuts.  This is my thing that I'm insane about.  Try to watch a Law & Order with me.  There's way too many episodes with title cards that give a date in January and then cut to characters in T-shirts walking through a New York City park filled with lush green trees.)

Well, if you're nuts, I'm nuts too. It bothered me as well. I didn't think a lot about why, but your reasons make a lot of sense to me.

1 hour ago, EVS said:

I think the comparison is because both shows planned to kill off characters from the beginning and stuck with that decision.  HIMYM even filmed those final scenes with the kids during season 1

I didn't watch more than a few seasons of HIMYM, but I sure don't remember ever thinking he was telling the tale after the mother had died. It always seemed just a bit of oversharing from an old man to me, seeing the kids didn't say "mom is dead" to me. But as I said, I only watched a few seasons.

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I'm so curious to know if this episode was specifically crafted for a world in which anyone who doesn't watch live is bound to be at least A LITTLE spoiled or if that just heightened the normal Jane craziness. Watching knowing that something big was coming but not knowing what was SO STRESSFUL. Would Rogelio die? Would Mateo? Was she pregnant? Would Petra kill the babies? Ferris wheel accident? Oh ok everything's fine...oh!

I should've realized Michael had the same symptoms as Jonathan Larson!

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12 hours ago, Jillybean said:

I listened to the phone call twice and all I could make out was "blood pressure" and "aortic separation." It's amazing how they were able to determine Michael's cause of death before Jane was even notified. Only on a TV show...

I think Alba is the most likely one to be getting married. I think they'll probably want to keep hope alive for Xo and Ro. 

Aortic DIssection. My husband survived one 10 years ago. It also killed John Ritter and Alan Thicke. Only about 10% survive a Type A

Edited by JennyMominFL
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My grandmother's husband had an aortic dissection.  He survived, but the surgery he had to repair it eventually led to his death years later.

I kept seeing "Jane the Virgin" in the trending column on FB this morning, so I thought I better watch before I get spoiled.  They have been foreshadowing something bad, but I wasn't expecting this exactly.  My heart is broken.  I was totally with Rogelio on #TeamMichael.  I'm so sad about it.  I can't see Jane and Raph together at this point.  I still have hope for him and Petra. 

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3 minutes ago, JennyMominFL said:

Aortic DIssection. My husband survived one 10 years ago. It also killed John Ritter and Alan Thicke. Only about 10% survive a Type A

I'm so glad your husband survived! My sister-in-law, unfortunately, did not (this was a few years before Ritter's death made it more visible).

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19 hours ago, natyxg said:

BUT, the show is about Jane and Rafael. Primarily Jane but Rafael is the second protagonist. They are the two pillars of the show, the windows into both "worlds" of the show. They each have their worlds and those worlds intersect because Jane was impregnated with his sperm.

Fundamentally, this is a choice the writers made, but it's not the only one possible. They could have had her get impregnated by his sperm, and killed HIM off, or made him a side issue, not a major character on his own. If he was painted to be an unredeemable villain instead of a love interest, he could have given constant drama to her life that way. Or he could have been an OK guy but grossly incompatible with Jane. Or he could have just become a minor character and they could have continued to focus on how the pregnancy disrupted her plans, and her agreeing to have the kid changed her life-- without making Rafael himself a major character on his own. I personally think that would have been much better. The actor playing Rafael has a total of 1 and a half facial expressions and his plots are so repetitive that I can't even tell them apart anymore.

To me, the show was about Jane and her life, which includes the "virgin insemination" and ensuing parenthood, her career, her family-- which was Xo, Alba, Mateo, Rogelio, and Michael-- her growth as a person, and it also used to include her friendships. I'm realizing that everything about the hotel and Rafael and his family bores and annoys me. Petra, like Rafael, is so busy repeating her story that it's seasickness inducing. Luisa/Rose is even worse. I DON'T CARE.

The over the topness and campy humor, and the narrator, are the telenovela elements that I enjoy. I don't mind a caper and I don't mind a complication, either. But the wanton destruction of anything good, and the wallowing in repetitive plotlines about evil stupidity? Of no interest to me.

I was seriously turned off by and shockingly unimpressed by that letter from the showrunner about how they had to kill Michael in order to give Jane a new life, and how they had to do it because they decided to do it a long time ago (as though they couldn't change their minds or develop other ways to make Jane's story dynamic and exciting other than making her a widow).

It's easy to see that the show I thought they were writing and the show I want to see, is pretty much the opposite of where they are headed. It makes it very easy for me to stop watching. All the things I liked the most have been being phased out, while all the things I've been barely tolerating are being doubled down on.

It's not about Michael or shipping. It's about the enjoyment of unearned violence for the sake of it, while viewing earned developments as distractions that take away from, rather than adding value to, the show.

And thus, I say good-bye.

Edited by possibilities
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What Joana said:

 

Quote

It's not about Michael or shipping. It's about the enjoyment of unearned violence for the sake of it, while viewing earned developments as distractions that take away from, rather than adding value to, the show.

I like every character on the show (at least those who are among the regulars), but Michael and Petra the most. They add something special to the show, the way I see it. And yeah, now he's gone and I don't like the direction her character has taken ever since she woke up, so I don't really think I'm in for this show anymore. I might still give it another shot, but it's definitely never going to be the same for me again.

Oh, and I am so OVER Luisa and Rose. It's not funny, cute or charming. It's downright pathetic and disturbing. 

*****

And no, I don't trust the writers to make it work, not anymore. Having Michael come back from the dead and then die for real just 10 episodes later is horrible writing. Introducing several characters and giving them huge screen time only for their storylines not to go anywhere is not good writing. Rehashing the same old (already absurd) storyline like Luisa/Rose over and over and bloody over again is certainly crappy writing. 

All of this. It's both. The way they handled Michael's death, the way they've handled Petra, and the why the hell am I supposed to care/what's the point again of all the stories so far this season does not inspire me with confidence that the writers will pay this off. I do like the regulars, and many of the recurring (such as Jane's advisor played by Melanie Mayron), but the writers don't seem invested in the material, a lot of it seems forced in order to keep the plot going (such as Petra's re-set - her entire arc has seemed forced this season), Rafael really can't carry a story about identity - the actor doesn't have the chops - and GOD AM I TIRED OF ROSE!!!! Move the hell on already. I was already disappointed at Michael's career change because being a detective in Miami has a lot more plot potential and cast integration potential than law school/being a lawyer, but I guess it makes sense now why they did it. And, as talented as Gina Rodriguez is, I think it's really difficult to find good chemistry. I didn't think she and "Sam" had it, nor Gina and the guy who played her professor, and the "light" side of her and Rafael when he was trying to be part of her family was torture. Given the track record, I'm not really on board for Jane's future dating life. 

I tuned in this season and instead of say, Petra, I got Catarina, I got Scott and Aneshka, then it was as if Petra never came back because when she woke up she was a bot. This season they also decided that there was no need for Petra/Jane, scenes I'd been waiting for. I now have no idea why they bothered developing these two as frenemies in prior seasons.  Xo decided she was into Bruce and immediately WHO is supposed to give a shit that his teen-age daughter is an obstacle to a relationship nobody cares about that was just rushed into being? Who are these people, and what's the point?

I think they're trying to "open up the show" and give all the main characters more material that will then feed into the primary dynamics, BUT they have lost the plot.

And no, there is no reason the format of the show requires Rafael as a co-lead or co-tentpole to Jane. It's Jane the Virgin, not Jane and her baby daddy.  You don't double down on a colorless actor. His strength is playing opposite Yael Grobglas, and he's decent as part of an ensemble. What he absolutely isn't is a guy who can center his own emotional story arc, who can get most of the audience (versus Raf-specific fans) to worry about him.

I, too, was unimpressed by the show runner's letter. It was stupid. "We decided to kill Michael off before the show even premiered, but Brett Dier was so fabulous we delayed his death." WTF? Nobody does that. Plenty of characters on television were supposed to die early but the story changed because the actor and character were a hit. She's a writer. There's no inherent virtue in sticking to your plan just because it was your original plan. I GET from the early episodes that Michael was meant to be a bit darker (his insisting Jane quit her job at the hotel) but that changed because of Dier. So why couldn't the rest change?

 She makes it seem noble, that they made themselves kill him despite loving him so much, that they dropped the hints in the narration to force themselves to do it, as if not doing it would be artistic weakness. Spare me. Before you kill off a character like that, look at the rest of the show and figure out if it's in shape to lose that character. Look at the casting landscape and see if there's any way you can possibly interest the audience in any other guy you bring in. How are you doing with other newbies? Bruce rocking anybody's socks? Is Rafael's true birth identity making Jane destination television for anyone? Is Rose/Sinrostro lighting up twitter? Are Petra's fans grooving to her new storyline or have you pretty much discouraged them (good job on that, btw, show. Take the character backwards AND give it very little time and writing while doing so). 

Do an assessment and then decide if you still should stick to the plan.

Edited by DianeDobbler
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Plenty of characters on television were supposed to die early but the story changed because the actor and character were a hit.

WORD to this. I keep on thinking of Jesse Pinkman from Breaking Bad. He was supposed to die early on but the writers saw what gold they had struck with him and kept him--and look what a powerful force he ended up being!  I sincerely wish the writers had done the same with Michael. So what if having a happy, loving couple isn't telenovela-like? Jane the Virgin moves its storylines along at a pretty good clip, instead of dragging them along endlessly, which also isn't telenovela-like, so I don't see why they decided to stick to the structure here.

I also keep thinking of whether I'd want Michael to somehow be revealed as not dead or brought back somehow, given the narrator's discussion of unreliable narrators. Even if they brought him back, I think I'm too emotionally scarred by now to care. And with the reference to his death in Season 1 and the fake-out almost-death in Season 3, I think I would just feel tired of the whole thing if he were to come back. 

I will keep watching out of curiosity, but I will definitely be in mourning. RIP Michael Cordero. 

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given the narrator's discussion of unreliable narrators.

Speaking of unreliable narrators, do you think there will be any acknowledgement that it was because of Michael that Jane realized that the book she was reviewing had an unreliable narrator and passed the job test?  And  you just know he passed the LSAT, don't we, right?

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8 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

It just hit me that Mateo wont even remember Michael, beyond pictures and videos. He wont even remember his step dad playing with him and his talking sock puppet and taking care of him or anything. Still not doing well.

NOOOOOOO. I just finished ugly crying after finally watching the episode, but now this...and how happy Michael was when he thought Jane was pregnant. And now I'm crying again. Cool, cool, cool...

I had read spoilers, so I knew this moment was coming...but I didn't know it would be this episode, until last night when I saw the EW article on Facebook with a *MAJOR SPOILER* warning. And my heart sank as I clicked it...and sure enough. I was scared to actually watch the episode. But I did it tonight. And because I knew what was coming, I was an emotional wreck the whole time. I started crying hard at the Jane/Michael carnival scenes. And when Michael collapsed and Jane's subsequent reaction? Fughaddabout it. I was sobbing grotesquely, and wouldn't be surprised to find that I got a noise complaint from a neighbor or two as a result. 

I literally just started watching this show at the end of December, and since I live in Canada (Oh Canada!), seasons 1,  2, and what had aired of season 3 so far before their midseason break were all available on Netflix, so I was all caught up before the show came back after the midseason break. And I became hooked on the show, and fast. And the biggest part of that was Jane/Michael's relationship, Michael as a singular character, and Brett Dier. (Upon becoming obsessed with this show and the character of Michael, I stumbled upon Brett Dier's Instagram/Twitter, and became a huge fan of his as a human (I want to be his best friend). And an actor. I even watched all of Ravenswood between now and then...) So when I read the spoiler regarding Michael's death, I was really upset, but hoping it was a red herring. Alas, it was not...I adore the optimisn of those who think that he could come back somehow (like this is another undercover mission or something), but I think this death is final. 

I told myself I would stop watching when/if they killed Michael off, but I think I will give it a couple more episodes before I completely shut it out. The rest of the cast is incredible (including the Narrator, who always cracks me up. I think he is so underrated!), and the writing (even in this heartbreaking episode) is stellar. I just don't know how the show can come back from this dark place, killing off such a beloved character, who is Jane's soulmate (not to mention Rogelio's brogelio). I suppose the three year time jump might help with that, but still...ooh, I'm also curious whose wedding Jane and Mateo were getting ready for. I hope it's Alba and gift shop guy! 

I actually liked Jennie Urman's letter to the fans after this episode, but now after reading some of the comments here, I'm upset about it. Things change -  the course of your show could've changed, despite all of the ominous hints that Michael would die. Ugh. But I truly do appreciate the sentiment behind her letter, and that she knows a lot of fans will be really upset by this.

Of course Michael's death (*SOBS FOREVER*) is garnering all of the discussion, and rightfully so...but as for the rest of the episode, I thought it was pretty damn good. I guess I should comment on that too! Of course the Jane/Michael scenes were all amazing. I LOVED Darci calling Rogelio out! (Her big dick line made me belly laugh hard.) I liked Tess and Jane bonding a little bit. I used to like Luisa, but she can go away now, and take "Rose" with her. So long, farewell ladies. Petra finally bonding with the twins was super sweet. Proud of Rafael for doing the right thing.

Can we please also mourn the loss of baby Mateo? I'm going to miss that kid...older Mateo is cute too, but I'll miss baby Mateo...I did not emotionally prepare for all of this!!!!!

If you follow any of the cast on Instagram/Twitter, most of them had really amazing tributes to Brett Dier that made me cry, and now I'm tearing up just thinking about it...so check it out if you want to continue being an emotional wreck over this TV show too!

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This conversation, particularly Joana's comments, made me consider what I do, or did, enjoy about Jane the Virgin, and how the show and I aren't on the same page anymore. I, too, probably enjoyed Michael and Petra the most as individual characters. Michael's gone, and Petra may as well be since I imagine in the writers' wisdom, they brought her back to "bitch" because they think it will enrich things when they finally revisit the more complex Petra. Well, no. They've missed the boat and the payoff on too many plot points for that to happen, most especially on her coming out of the coma. I'm sure many fans were looking forward to both Rafael and Petra's compassionate reaction, and Petra responding to that, but those expectations were obviously completely unfounded.  Paying that off didn't mean Petra had to become touchy feely and redeemed. Jane the Virgin could have had her backslide on a million pretexts.

So that was a disappointment even before they killed off Michael.

I enjoy Petra and Rafael a lot, particularly the more comedic angles when they try to accommodate each other's crazy, or each knows the other knows that THEY know (Friends shout out) but won't cop to it. That works much better than the drama.

 I enjoy Jane's school, and her prickly dynamic with her advisor. Now the show has ff three years, I'm going to assume she's done with grad school.

Really one of the biggest WTF's for me of all time is Xo/Bruce. Sure, we knew about Bruce in the premiere. Yes, I get they want to keep Xo and Rogelio apart. Ok, bringing in a guy for Xo could work. What I didn't expect was for Bruce/Xo to get on the express train as an insta-couple with an insta-obstacle. Who the hell cares? Do they not care about actually writing this show anymore or is it all about hitting plot points?

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