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S03.E10: Chapter Fifty-Four

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35 minutes ago, DianeDobbler said:

Michael's gone, and Petra may as well be since I imagine in the writers' wisdom, they brought her back to "bitch" because they think it will enrich things when they finally revisit the more complex Petra. Well, no. They've missed the boat and the payoff on too many plot points for that to happen, most especially on her coming out of the coma. I'm sure many fans were looking forward to both Rafael and Petra's compassionate reaction, and Petra responding to that, but those expectations were obviously completely unfounded.  Paying that off didn't mean Petra had to become touchy feely and redeemed. Jane the Virgin could have had her backslide on a million pretexts.

So that was a disappointment even before they killed off Michael.

This. So much this! And it's also something I don't understand. Just like the showrunners spent so much time and energy building Michael up, they also invested a lot of effort into developing a relationship between Jane and Petra, and it was complex, intriguing and fun. Those were two people just too different to ever be truly close, but the circumstances have brought them together, they have to deal with each other on daily basis, and so they realize they might see eye to eye more often than they'd think. It's always interesting to watch something like that unfold. So, what do we get now? They have literally not spoken to each other all season long. Also, the narrator's enthusiasm about "the bitch being back" was an incredibly tone-deaf moment. I don't think more than like 2% of the viewers wanted Petra to be evil again, so it was really bizarre the show would pretend it's something everyone was anxiously waiting to happen. They have taken it back since, but it's still something that never should have happened in the first place.

I don't know. Judging from the letter to the fans (which I'm thoroughly unimpressed with, BTW, and I don't get why we're supposed to care for the creative process behind the final product instead of the product itself) and the current developments in most storylines, it seems like they really are interested in basically creating a new show. I don't think it was even remotely necessary at this point, but of course, if that's what they want, they're free to do it. It's just it doesn't mean I have to watch this new show. 

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Also, the narrator's enthusiasm about "the bitch being back" was an incredibly tone-deaf moment. I don't think more than like 2% of the viewers wanted Petra to be evil again, so it was really bizarre the show would pretend it's something everyone was anxiously waiting to happen.

Just to say I completely clocked that moment when it happened too, and I found it just as annoying as you did. It's astro-turfing, period. (That's when anyone manufactures grass roots support for something when that support actually doesn't exist).  As if that's what people were speculating about / hoping for / looking forward to when Petra came out of the coma.

Maybe they do want a new show. I don't recognizes the dynamics on screen. All I'm seeing are mechanics. All it looks like to me is they are running longer as a show so they have to stretch stuff out, and that's exactly how it comes across. Nothing has real value in its own right.

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In my opinion they should have moved on from the idea of Jane/Rafael once they saw the two lacked chemistry. Instead of killing off the guy she DID have chemistry with, to preserve what? A format? Because I do think that's the end game at this point. There is no other reason. It's having it both ways. Look, a perfect love but limited sub-arc story with Michael, but we keep our end game and format! Except the end game and format doesn't work. And adhering to it doesn't reflect well on the creativity of the writers. I can already name every beat of every Rogelio story as soon as it starts, so having a show laid out like this for Jane doesn't work. Everything in between is going to feel like a beat. The show is already feeling uninvested and mechanical.  The show has been running long enough for the writers to know what Justin Baldoni is and isn't as an actor. To barrel ahead despite is perverse. And they've set themselves up with a crap dynamic. What are we going to see? Petra, Rafael, Jane in separate romances? That doesn't cohere. A new triangle at the end of the day where the person Raf has chemistry with - Petra - is the third wheel because that's what a telenova demands? This is just annoying. I'm over the inability of a television show to switch it up, especially when that inability has torpedo'd some really good shows. Remember Ugly Betty? Yes, there was the Betty/Daniel group. There are people who show up for American versions of telenovas expecting and demanding the trope. But IMO writers have to write for what shows up on screen. With Ugly Betty, what showed up was Betty / Henry. But a story originally intended to be Henry's girlfriend falsely claiming he was the father of her baby became a story about Henry actually being the baby's father when the writers panicked and thought it was too soon to shut Betty down with her true love. They thought the show would run a long time. As it happened, the show, by forcing organic developments off the show because they didn't fit a formula destroyed itself and ended prematurely, never again really coming up with a strong story for Betty. I was annoyed that the writers felt "Happily ever after" was the only alternative to writing off Henry, so they "had to" write off Henry. As it turned out, they had to write him off about three more times after the first time and it still didn't really "take" because he was the only thing that felt true.

This feels like that, complete with every news outlet proclaiming that writing off Michael was genius. Sure it is.

As for Friends, and I know this is a tangent, Ross/Rachel was the worst. I think considerations like Matt LeBlanc getting signed for "Joey" in S8 did influence the show regressing back to Ross/Rachel though, so I forgive it.

Edited by DianeDobbler
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My heart echoes the many sad cries on here. I was COMPLETELY unspoiled and equally, completely in denial. So yeah, gutted. I've known women who were far too young too lose their husbands (tho they weren't as young as Jane)...and it's awful and terrifying and life-altering (I mean, duh).

The challenge or issue here, as I see it: yes, it's a telenovella with twists and soapy turns. BUT it's also a story firmly rooted in the most real possible relationships. Parents, friends, lovers (even Xo with Bruce - how many of us have a friend we can't believe is dating THAT idiot again?)...so Michael isn't some prop, here. He was a character that simply exuded realness, and his and Jane's marriage reflected that. Even with the show's crazier antics -- i.e. Petra being "locked in" -- there was grounding in a reality - in that case, insecurity about her ability to be a good mom.

And yeah, in real life, people die. If anything, I see Michael's death less as a telenovella trope and more of a nod to sad reality.

How does the show go on (I can't say "get beyond" - that feels like it dishonors the character) tonally? I don't know. I HOPE it's something that the writers have considered thoughtfully, because it will require a deft touch to stay true to the joyous roots of the show. But, for now, I'm in. I love Gina. I love Yael (sp). I love the relationships. I'm going to see if this show can surprise me.

But I'm bummed.

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I don't mind Jane's chemistry with Rafael, and I do like Justin. The reason why I preferred Jane/Michael is because while Rafael and Jane was based on over the top romanticism, Michael and Jane was based on imo real and realistic foundations. They knew each other, they were willing to talk and compromise, they had history. They were attracted to each other, they were willing to work on their relationship... they fit.  Meanwhile, Rafael seemed to be some impulsive urge that Jane's alter ego, taken from one of her romance novels, decided to pursue even though they were basically strangers having a baby together and forcing a relationship. It's why they couldn't work back then. I think they can make them work later if they want. Still, Michael's death is sad and so far I'm still on team Michael.

I do agree with someone upthread who said that ultimately this was about following the expected formula. Absolutely. I agree. I've thought from the beginning that Jane and Rafael would be left standing in the end, though for a little while I thought 'huh, maybe they really did change their minds about that." Well.... nope.

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From a different angle, remember the gym scene with Michael and Rafael? Michael had to get in shape for his physical, while Rafael was doing what looked to me almost like a narcissist workout (is there a reason a hotelier has to have a build that cut and defined? Couldn't he take it down a notch and still be fit.  There are male models who don't take it that far. Now male "glamour" models - they do.)? Michael seemed a bit thin and frail. I figured it was for the plot - he was paler, he was wearing sort of a plain loose polo shirt, and it was meant to contrast with Rafael and work on Michael's ego. But then I think back to his cop days and I wonder if Brett Dier didn't drop a few pounds to set up this plot point. I think he looked a bit thinner and more wan this season than in previous.

Edited by DianeDobbler
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I never liked particularly liked the character Michael or the acting skills of the person who plays him so this ep was, for me at least, an average awesome ep chocked full of great comedic and dramatic acting, visually amazing as usual (sets, makeup, hair, etc.) and totally engaging with twisty plot turns similarly to how Lost was imo.

Also, did anyone catch that it was Michael who told Jane about the unreliable narrator that led to her getting the job which she would have never gotten if Michael didn't point out the flaw in the writing? I wonder if they'll address that in future eps.

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41 minutes ago, DianeDobbler said:

(is there a reason a hotelier has to have a build that cut and defined? Couldn't he take it down a notch and still be fit.

They explained that when he and Michael had to change the tire.  I think Michael made some comment about Raf's workout and Raf explained that ever since he had cancer, he has been a little bit obsessed about taking care of his body.  I'm so used to characters on TV looking like that so I didn't think twice about it but it was nice that they gave that background.  IIRC, I think Michael also had a hard time breathing at that time?  Or maybe it was during a workout.  I seem to recall that and it hinted towards things not being right with Michael but he didn't want to go to the doctor because he thought he was okay.

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Also, did anyone catch that it was Michael who told Jane about the unreliable narrator that led to her getting the job which she would have never gotten if Michael didn't point out the flaw in the writing? I wonder if they'll address that in future eps.

I guess they could bring it up but I thought the show actually made it pretty obvious with Jane's reaction, having him help her with the research and then having her go to the publisher. 

I already have the ep deleted from my DVR but did Raf tell Michael he was proud of Michael for doing the LSAT or impressed?  I thought it was proud (like Jane told Michael at the end of the ep) but that seems strange the more I think of it and impressed seems to fit better. 

Edited by Irlandesa

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5 hours ago, DianeDobbler said:

Remember Ugly Betty? Yes, there was the Betty/Daniel group. There are people who show up for American versions of telenovas expecting and demanding the trope. But IMO writers have to write for what shows up on screen. With Ugly Betty, what showed up was Betty / Henry. But a story originally intended to be Henry's girlfriend falsely claiming he was the father of her baby became a story about Henry actually being the baby's father when the writers panicked and thought it was too soon to shut Betty down with her true love. They thought the show would run a long time. As it happened, the show, by forcing organic developments off the show because they didn't fit a formula destroyed itself and ended prematurely, never again really coming up with a strong story for Betty. I was annoyed that the writers felt "Happily ever after" was the only alternative to writing off Henry, so they "had to" write off Henry. As it turned out, they had to write him off about three more times after the first time and it still didn't really "take" because he was the only thing that felt true.

Haaaa...I remember what happened during the early years with that show and yes, Betty/Daniel (in my eyes) never could match the spark that was Betty/Henry. I stopped watching, but didn't Betty do a Kelly and chose herself and her career at the end of the series?

Edited by vixenbynight · Reason: Coding

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1 hour ago, trose said:

Also, did anyone catch that it was Michael who told Jane about the unreliable narrator that led to her getting the job which she would have never gotten if Michael didn't point out the flaw in the writing? I wonder if they'll address that in future eps.

I believe that Jane actually thanked Michael for bringing up the flaw in the writing project that she had to review. Wasn't that why he thanked her for the night they had?

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VixenbyNight, yes, I understand Betty "chose herself" but the show left open the possibility of Betty/Daniel down the line. I don't know explicitly what they did to suggest that, but fans still watching felt that was what the writers had done.

If we are fast forwarding four years, we are to believe that it's 2020 or 21 then? And Rogelio and his new girlfriend last four years? What about Catarina's story? What was the point? If there was one, why wasn't it ever on screen? This was a character that I thought would provide more storyline than she provided. For instance, I figured perhaps Petra and Jane would interact, Petra making some snarky remark about Caterina and then saying "Oh, I'm sorry. I know she's your cousin." And Jane doing that thing where she's trying to straddle what's polite and what she really means, like "Oh, no, it's ok - I mean, I hardly know her." because she's dying to vent a little, and then Petra pointing out she's not jealous of Caterina and Jane assuring Petra she isn't either, and then maybe the two of them doing a little frenemies style snooping on the side to figure out Caterina's deal. It seemed like a gimme. Instead - I just don't understand the point of this season so far.

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3 hours ago, vixenbynight said:

I stopped watching, but didn't Betty do a Kelly and chose herself and her career at the end of the series?

Not quite like Kelly (or at least what I've heard of Kelly's choice--I didn't watch the show.) Her choice was between going and staying and not between two men or romance vs. career.  She got a career opportunity in London and she decided to go.  Daniel realized he might have had more complex feelings for her beyond just friendship so he ended up going to London.  They ran into one another and he asked her to dinner.  She agreed.  They left it somewhat open ended whether or not it was between friends or friends with the potential for more. It was considered open ended because Daniel was shown to be aware of his feelings for Betty while they didn't show Betty have a similar awakening.  However, she was made aware of Daniel's feelings by his mother so when the dinner invitation came, she likely knew there could be more to it.  

Interesting perspective on Henry. I thought he was charming early as a recurring character.  Less charming once he became a regular and the show struggled to fit him in.  Then again, the show struggled with that in the second season overall.  While I still love the show, they make a good case for creating a plan to follow.  It became pretty clear that they didn't have one in place after the first thirteen episodes.  I did enjoy the show after those thirteen episodes and I thought the fourth season had some strong things but, unlike Jennie, I don't think they created milestones for Betty to hit.  And every season, those milestones serve as a homing device.  For instance, I know people feel like the first half of this season didn't quite have direction but I felt that way about last season too.  It wasn't until the second half of the season where there was a clear and distinct goal in mind and that was to marry Jane and Michael. 

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If we are fast forwarding four years, we are to believe that it's 2020 or 21 then?

The future is going to be the present. So a three year time skip but they're still going to make contemporary references related to current events similar to Rogelio and Darci's consent conversation.

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Catarina's story? What was the point? If there was one, why wasn't it ever on screen?

I thought it was going to be a way to explore Alba's past more.  That didn't quite pan out the way I thought it would.  But I do think her presence brought about some interesting things in the characters.  For Jane, Catalina's presence brought about some latent jealousy in Jane for the fact that she traveled and had all these life experiences.  Jane had to reconcile the fact that the travel and adventures that Catalina experienced would be out of her reach as Michael's wife and mother.  I'm not saying she was unhappy about her situation but rather there's usually a trade off.  It also eventually lead to Raf realizing that as much as he liked this woman, she might be the best partner for where he is in his life. 

Edited by Irlandesa

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The thing about Aortic Dissection, and I realize they threw a wrench in this with Michael being shot, is that there is NO warning. You could be like Rafael, super healthy and cut one day and have a dissection the next. One isn't usually frail or sickly then has a dissection. My husband was healthy and normal with no physical signs whatsoever and them bam, one day at 40...dissection.  They also can happen to women while giving birth. And they are also often caused by a defect, a bicuspid aortic valve, which you wouldn't know you had until you looked at it. We had our son's aorta checked because of his father's dissection. Luckily our sons aorta is normal.

Edited by JennyMominFL

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There are so many things that I want to say, but apart of me is afraid of stepping on people's hurt feelings. I will just some it up with a few basic points. I always expected Michael to die. I thought it should have happened in the premiere and pushing it back felt like it was something they were doing to make his actual death hurt more. Either way I'm kind of eh because Michael never resonated with me as a character because outside of his relationship with Jane, he wasn't much of anything. I did enjoy the storytelling for Petra even though it seemed to regress for a milisecond because for once it didn't involve crapping on Rafael or her pretending like she didn't do those awful things to him. Rather they were kind of like these old frenemies who played the tit-for-tat came, but when it came to push and shove, they were there to support each other. He was there to support her once he realized that she was melting down and she totally had his back about the going to prison thing. I was so moved by that scene when Justin is in tears in front of Petra. I hate how they killed Michael though. It was just so sad. I wish we got to see more than Jane's scream because that was just awful. I think that's what I hate the most about this plot-line. 

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I expected Michael to die last season because the narrator was so ominous. Then he got shot, got better, and they were happy and married and I went back to forgetting about Michael's fate because of his near death experience. I thought we would get at least one season of marital bliss before they would think of killing him off- I just wasn't mentally prepared this season. It sucks, and I feel emotionally manipulated. And I'm just as mad that I can't enjoy this show anymore, when it was the bright spot of my Monday night. JTV was fun and happy, and now with this death it can never be my happy show. 

Will still come to this board to see how the storyline is progressing, but I just can't watch Jane try to move on because it is going to be heartbreaking. I ugly cried enough on Monday.

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I think the point of the four year jump is she has moved on so we don't have to watch her do it. The show was definitely my happy place as well, not for shipper reasons, but because the writers seemed to have such a strong handle on the story. Pieces of story that many shows would have held onto, this show would quickly pay off - i.e., Petra artificially inseminating herself. Everyone knew about it pretty quickly.

This season hasn't been that much fun. Even the stuff that's praised, I'm sort of eh about. For example, Jane losing her virginity. It was only one episode, but DAMN did they beat a dead horse. I GET it. It might take work for even a couple that has chemistry and is in love to get themselves in sync so that both are fulfilled in the sack.  This was one case where I would have been happy with "less show, more tell" in getting that point across. If it had worked, it would have been great, but IMO it didn't really work.  And while I know why now, when Michael was trying out new careers, that was ridiculous. Even if he'd been good at it "I'm going to be a stand up" isn't a career, and we shouldn't have had to pretend that it was one. Even if he ended up the new Louis C.K., the reality is that for a long time he'd have been home during the day, doing stand-up at night and not earning any $$. Then all the new characters who were immediately treated as established characters. If all of this happened because the show was treading water waiting for Michael's death, that's not very adroit, and a stupid decision, IMO.

Edited by DianeDobbler

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Just watched this episode. This was a complete shock!!  I've been ill the last month and totally out of the loop so was catching up on my shows.  Also don't do much social media since the elections. I'm friggin' crying my butt off!! I don't expect that from Jane-not rip my heart out crying.  Maybe some happy or bittersweet crying or from laughing but this was just...not right.  

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I'm afraid that I just won't be able to enjoy the show as a comedy any more. This is far darker than the the show normally goes and, while the plot is twisty-turny, Jane the Virgin is tonally a straight forward romantic comedy (with admittedly more pathos than weaker examples of the genre). I'm supposed to laugh at Rogelio's cluelessness and well-manning narcissism? Or get invested in Petra's scheming and machinations? Won't happen for me.  My suspension of disbelief is shattered and it's not coming back anytime soon. 

This! I loved the show.  I was not a Jane shipper with anyone.  I just watched and enjoyed the show-all the characters, thought the format was clever and different.  I even appreciated them going the route of Jane and Michael marrying. Showing that a happy couple doesn't have to ruin a show. But this??? I don't care if there is a time lapse in the show, there isn't a time lapse in my mind.  I still just watched Michael die and everything on the show now will be tinged (is that the right word?) with that sadness.  As Gin and Tonic said above, I'm now suppose to laugh at Rogelio and Petra? What the hell?!!

 My mind went to the show M.A.S.H. (yes, I'm old) which was categorized as a comedy but it was also about war and death and had many heart-wrenching moments. Col. Blake's death as an example.  But it was a straight up dark comedy or even dramedy.  We knew that was what it was and that is wasn't always laughs. There were some definitely shocking moments but that was the tone of the show.  Some other comedies may have "teaching" moments when someone would die but it wasn't a main character.  Also in some Norman Lear's comedies, we'd usually get a bit of seriousness.  Jane was not a dark comedy. If they planned to kill Michael off then make him a baddie that we don't care about dying.  

 Personally for me I just don't think I can watch it again.   At least for a long time. Don't even think I can re-watch the first seasons. The Jane the Virgin I enjoyed is gone.   And what pisses me off the most is that I'm having such an emotional reaction to this! It's a TV comedy for god's sake!  

*sigh*Gonna miss the show. 

Edited by DotCotton
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I was spoiled, but didn't realize going in, that this was that episode. The fact that our Narrator opened with a vignette from Michael's life, and not that of Jane Gloriana Villanueva gave me pause.

It was a good episode with some great moments. The recreation of Jane & Michael's first date was as magical as anything I've seen on television. It felt real. 

And even though I am #TeamMichael, I can accept his heartbreaking demise for the sake of the story.  (see what I did there.) What will be tougher is accepting no Brett Dier, no fantastic chemistry between Gina and Brett on my screen each week, and most of all, no #brogelios. In that way, it mirrors so many senseless losses we all bear in our real lives. We can eventually accept death, but we can't so easily accept the hole in our every day existence caused by our loved one's passing. It won't be so easy, but I want to see the rest of Jane's story  

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16 hours ago, DotCotton said:

 Jane was not a dark comedy.

No but this argument always confuses me a little.  Serious and dramatic things have happened on this show.  The first season alone saw two breakups, Rafael's father dying and ended on a kidnapping cliffhanger.  They were sad and involved a lot of tears. 

So what's different?  Is it that we knew Jane would get Mateo back?  Is it that Emilio barely had a presence so even though Luisa and Raf were sad, we knew they'd get better and we wouldn't feel his loss as much?  And Michael is a character more fans were invested in so even if Jane gets better, the audience will still feel it? 

I get the argument from that POV but this show is definitely a dramedy.  

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I always thought that someone being artificially inseminated against their will, having it derail all their plans and being basically guilted into having the baby because it was the father's supposed last chance to procreate (and then it turning out not to be)... already was kind of a dark story to be telling. I know on the show it's all dressed up in bright colors and quirky events and true love and cute babies and happy family, but just the idea of that has always been horrifying to me. So it doesn't surprise me that Jane's life continues to be totally messed up and unfair.

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1 hour ago, Irlandesa said:

No but this argument always confuses me a little.  Serious and dramatic things have happened on this show.  The first season alone saw two breakups, Rafael's father dying and ended on a kidnapping cliffhanger.  They were sad and involved a lot of tears. 

So what's different?  Is it that we knew Jane would get Mateo back?  Is it that Emilio barely had a presence so even though Luisa and Raf were sad, we knew they'd get better and we wouldn't feel his loss as much?  And Michael is a character more fans were invested in so even if Jane gets better, the audience will still feel it? 

I get the argument from that POV but this show is definitely a dramedy.  

This is exactly the difference for me (I bolded the above lines).  Now the show is a dramedy,  I don't ever remember shedding tears with this show like I did last night.   Rafael's father dying was never even meant to be a tearjerker imo.  It was all just part of the Sin Rostro story line.  Not to be taken seriously.   The death of Rafael's father and Mateo's kidnapping where we knew he would be okay all worked in the tone of the show for the first couple of seasons.  If they want to kill Michael off and keep the tone of the show as before don't let us get invested in him.  Don't let his death be so tragic.  Kill him off screen, make him a villain.  As I said before I was completely unspoiled.  If I had known that the show was taking a more serious turn or if it had truly been a dramedy  in previous episodes, then I wouldn't be angry about his death.  As Lebanna said above the show presented itself to us "dressed up in bright colors and quirky events and true love and cute babies and happy family" and that is what I signed up for when I went to watch this episode.  

Maybe it is still too soon for me, I just watched the show last night, but I can't see getting the joy out the show as I did before.  It is almost like it has lost its innocence, which I know isn't the right word.  Don't know how to express it.  Maybe it just got too real for me and now I can't get the "real" out of my head. It will be awfully hard for me to watch the show now as quirky, etc. when I have Michael's death and the life he shared with Jane, Mateo and Rogelio fresh in my mind.  Far too tragic.  

The show is still excellent and I've loved it but I am not up to going through the emotions with Michael flashbacks,etc.  I already have too much real emotion in my life to deal with.  Jane was a fun escape from it.  I just don't see it being that way for me any longer.  Maybe in a while I'll revisit it.  Just not now.  And yes I know I'm taking Michael's death far too seriously, dammit. Grrrrr!!! It should not have affected me so strongly!!! Damn this show!

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I agree- I'm mad at myself for taking a TV show so seriously but making Jane a widow made this show not fun anymore. Yes, there were deaths that affected Raf and there was the Sin Rostro storyline, but they didn't veer this show into a depressing storyline for Jane. I'm sure that this is all overreacting without watching the time jump, and how the writers will deal with it, but I'm still pissed damn it! 

I still think about the last scene (can't watch it again) and start getting teary eyed. Maybe in a month or two after reading on here how the storyline is going is when I will attempt to watch again. Thanks in advance to everyone who is going to see how Chapter 3 pans out so my emotional self doesn't have to watch.

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1 hour ago, DotCotton said:

I don't ever remember shedding tears with this show like I did last night.   Rafael's father dying was never even meant to be a tearjerker imo.

I don't know if Emilio was supposed to be a tearjerker but that death and Raf learning his mother basically sold him led to him breaking up with Jane.  And whether or not a person cried at that, it was played for max heartbreak and drama so I do think it was meant to be a tearjerker.  And the show let Jane live with it for a few episodes.  They also played with heartbreak when she broke up with Michael in the second season after he attacked Raf--albeit with a time jump of a few months.  Now neither made me cry, nor did I cry at Michael's death.  Well crafted tearjerker storylines rarely do it for me. It's always the unexpected and cheesy tearjerker things that get to me.  (Think the lame Christmas Shoes song which I hate but it gives me goosebumps every time....darnit.) But I could tell I'd be tearful if I were more empathetic.

Now that's not to say I don't understand your feelings in a way.  Perhaps not the devastation over Michael.  That seed was planted in the first season and hinted at generously.  But I did drop this show for a while when it wasn't quite bringing me the happy and there a few political satire shows that I used to love to watch but have had to avoid lately because I can't take it.  I just think that this show has had very serious and sad events but done well not to wallow in them too long.  I will be curious to see what the tone is tomorrow.  

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On 2/7/2017 at 3:47 AM, Jillybean said:

I listened to the phone call twice and all I could make out was "blood pressure" and "aortic separation." It's amazing how they were able to determine Michael's cause of death before Jane was even notified. Only on a TV show...

It was the way Jane was told of Michael's death, the reason for his death, and how soon it was known, which made me think that Michael died in the hospital after being shot in the hallway by Rose and that Jane had been living in a world of depression since then.  I thought that some of the season's happenings--Jane and Michael marrying and moving into a place of their own, the revelation that Rafael was not Emilio's biological son, Xiomara's romance with Bruce and some other things that occurred--might have been dreams of Jane's but I realized that I was just making up some explanation so that Michael's death right then would have been unlikely.

 

On 2/7/2017 at 0:26 PM, tennisgurl said:

It just hit me that Mateo wont even remember Michael, beyond pictures and videos. He wont even remember his step dad playing with him and his talking sock puppet and taking care of him or anything. Still not doing well.

 

On 2/7/2017 at 9:31 PM, AdorkableSars said:

Can we please also mourn the loss of baby Mateo? I'm going to miss that kid...older Mateo is cute too, but I'll miss baby Mateo...I did not emotionally prepare for all of this!!!!!

One of the things that I'll miss most because of the time jump will be the absolutely adorable, big eyed, big cheeked little actor that plays Mateo.

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Wow they totally got me with that ending.

I thought Michael was going to die but when they didn't kill him off at the beginning of the season I got lulled into a false sense of security. I admit it, they blindsided me. 

Great episode except for the Rose stuff. It's just getting too ridiculous. Plastic surgery doesn't change somebody's basic bone structure! Too ludicrous. And what the hell is Luisa thinking anyway? Ergh.

RIP Michael. But maybe now Rafael will get Jane back. He deserves something good in his life.

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I get why they wanted to forward three years. What I don't get is why they did it right away. They should have let him die and have her find out. And they should have finished the episode there. Then they should have had two more episodes of reactions and mourning and stuff. THEN a three year gap. Let us feel the loss for a couple week's at least. Not make us jump into a new reality RIGHT AWAY

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So... Just finished this one. Uh.....

Excuse me a sec.

AJ-Lee-Screaming-In-Frustration-Shakes-T

Okay, that's slightly better.

God. Damn. Show. I cannot think of the last time a character death has affected me like this one has. Maybe Ms. Calendar from Buffy The Vampire Slayer's second season.

Though there is one thing that I'm realizing. This was the end of part two. The end of part one was the season one finale when Mateo was born and was kidnapped by Sin Rostro. Does this mean Michael was originally going to die in the season two finale, but they just delayed it?

On 2/7/2017 at 3:26 PM, tennisgurl said:

It just hit me that Mateo wont even remember Michael, beyond pictures and videos. He wont even remember his step dad playing with him and his talking sock puppet and taking care of him or anything. Still not doing well.

3
 

And now I'm crying, again. Thanks, you jerk*

 

*I do not actually think you are a jerk.

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10 hours ago, Last Time Lord said:

Though there is one thing that I'm realizing. This was the end of part two. The end of part one was the season one finale when Mateo was born and was kidnapped by Sin Rostro. Does this mean Michael was originally going to die in the season two finale, but they just delayed it?

According to the showrunner, Michael was always meant to die*, but they delayed it even longer because of the reception to Michael/Brett Dier. So it's possible that he was supposed to die earlier in season 2. So I could believe that Michael's time was supposed to be up in the season 2 finale, but they decided to give him a proper sendoff once they started planning season 3. 

*Apologies for not remembering which interview I read this from. I don't think I'm remembering wrong, but I could be. Maybe he was just meant to not be Jane's endgame.

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3 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

According to the showrunner, Michael was always meant to die*, but they delayed it even longer because of the reception to Michael/Brett Dier. So it's possible that he was supposed to die earlier in season 2. So I could believe that Michael's time was supposed to be up in the season 2 finale, but they decided to give him a proper sendoff once they started planning season 3. 

*Apologies for not remembering which interview I read this from. I don't think I'm remembering wrong, but I could be. Maybe he was just meant to not be Jane's endgame.

Thanks for letting me know about that. 

In a lot of ways, his death was perfectly placed. It wasn't the mid season finale, or the first episode back. It was just this random episode at mid season, and then everything changed. 

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I've just been binge watching all the available seasons on Netflix (to figure out where to watch what's aired of S4) and have been slowly reading through the season and episode threads as I go.  I guess I'm in the minority because Michael's death didn't upset me at all.  Jane's reaction was heart breaking but losing Michael as a character just felt "meh" to me.  To paraphrase Rogelio, he just never "popped" for me.  From the very first episode and some of the narrator's first lines...where he introduces Jane first and then switches to 8 whatever miles away to introduce Rafael...I understood this to be a story mostly about Jane but also about Rafael.  Due to the circumstances they've obviously had a lot of their storylines intersect but each one has also had plot lines that have been independent of each other.  That's also been true of a lot of the secondary characters.  Petra, Xo, and Rogelio in particular have had their own crazy stuff happening apart from either Jane or Rafael.  Michael always stuck out to me as being almost completely defined by his relationship to Jane.  And as such, his presence usually felt contrived to me.  Even after the first main push of the Sin Rostro storyline was done in the first half of S1 Michael was still somehow always at the Marbella.  Then after Matteo was born he was somehow always showing up at the Villanueva house.  He felt shoehorned in there and I found it annoying.  It was like the in-show telenovela writers brainstorming how to bring Santos back from the dead using whatever flimsy rationale.  Michael's constant presence felt, to me, like an intrusion at points in the story when it didn't feel natural.  It felt flimsy.  If the character had some spark I could've made allowances but that wasn't the case.  To me the character was so much milquetoast.  Nice guy but mostly just an accessory to Jane's story.  So, no, I don't mind his loss.

 

That said, I do know what it's like to lose a character that I DO love and so I don't blame those who feel they can no longer watch the show.  I've been known to do that myself.  Sometimes I've been able to go back at a later time, after I've had my own time to mourn, and find that I can still enjoy the show.  I don't yet know how the three year time jump will work but I'm not ruling out its success.  Too much time watching a character mourn starts to wear thin fast.  I also watch Lethal Weapon on tv, where one of the main characters also tragically lost his wife.  Halfway into the first season I was groaning for him to Just. Move. On. Already.  And moving on in way negates the love that Jane and Michael shared.  I may not have been a big Michael fan but I understand that the show intended them to love each other very much.  That love isn't diminished when Jane moves on with her life.  And showing the strength and courage it will take for Jane to put herself out there again, to open herself up again...well, that seems very Jane-like to me.

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I haven't watched a single episode of this show since this episode.  Partly, that was because I loved Michael and thought he and Jane were incredible together.  Partly, that was because Rafael and Jane have never had any chemistry (as pretty as he is, Baldoni has chemistry with almost none of the other actors) and I resent the show's inexorable push to have them end up together (we all know it's happening).  Partly, that was because my own dad passed away two days after this episode, and I just could not watch this show anymore.

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I'm sorry you lost your father.  My deepest condolences. I can certainly see how that has created a negative association with this show.  Real life always trumps entertainment.  I hope you've been able to find comfort in your family and in your memories and that you and your family can find a place of peace.

 

As for chemistry, that's always subjective.  For me it was the opposite.  I always thought Jane and Michael had about as much spark as a soggy newspaper  (thought he had better chemistry with Rogelio tbh) while Jane and Rafael had some definite chemistry.  To each their own.  :-)

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Thank you.  It's been strange, obviously awful, and weirdly manageable because my sister and I have received so much love and support from those around us.  You just...get through it.

That's funny, I thought Rafael had a lot more chemistry with Michael than he did with Jane! :-D

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