S01.E13: Karma Chameleon

[Primetimer]

But let's take some time to rank those that always get left behind.

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[Boofish]

7 hours ago, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

Not that he deserved to die, but I just stopped and realized how much of a shitty person and brother that bartender was.

He spent parts of the episode getting phone calls from his sister, and then explained that she lived alone with a kid and was having flooding problems - in the middle of a possible tornado - but instead of going to make sure everything's alright with his family, he ignores all else but the attractive stewardess he wants to slip the sausage [& man-naise] to. 

Before rebuttals, yes I know, the bar was right next to (if not actually part of) the TEI, but just personally speaking, the safety and well-being of my sister and her kid(s) - in the present situation - is most likely going to prevent my sex drive getting and/or staying in overdrive.  Is it possible the tornado warning had been called off by the time the 'night' at the bar ended?  If so, that's even worse.  IE, didn't need to worry about being caught in it if went to check on the family. 

Maybe the sister called back and told him things were fine [had help from a neighbor, etc].  But without explanation, he's left looking like a heel.

So I guess I'm alone in thinking that the nephew is the killer Wyatt was looking for? They mentioned the sister and troubled kid in a trailer park twice. Once too many for it to be insignificant. I was wondering if they got married and took custody of the nephew who in turn killed Jessica. He left the nephew alive which is why Jessica is still dead

[maczero]

24 minutes ago, Sandman said:

It's not murder, but it is an accident in which Wyatt bears some responsibility -- moral if not legal. Certainly Wyatt feels responsible.

Wyatt bears a lot more than some responsibility.  I'd say all.  Wyatt threatened and kidnapped the man.  The victim died while trying to escape his attacker so I'd say this at least qualifies as involuntary manslaughter.

[withanaich]

Sorry not sorry, but I’m glad Wyatt’s wife is still dead. It’s terrible for the other people who love her, but he’s an ass and he was way, way, way out of line. And because it’s this show, I’m sure there won’t be any other consequences for all the crap Wyatt pulled (stole the Lifeboat, got a man killed, fucked around in the past like a clumsy dummy, lied to Rufus), so maybe he needed to chase a man to his death to realize that YOU’RE NOT GETTING YOUR WIFE BACK, YOU MORON. Now if only Flynn would realize that the tragedy of his life can’t be undone by mucking around in the past, and Lucy would stop freaking out on Homeland Security about their empty promise to magic her sister out of nonexistence.

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I honestly thought that the twist was going to be that Drew Roy wasn't the father, but Rapey Airport Guy wound up raping her after Drew Roy and her were done with their hook-up. She then told everybody that Drew Roy was the father rather than admitting she got raped.

My husband thought Wyatt was going to end up sleeping with the woman to keep her away from the bartender, and end up being the one to father his wife’s killer. Which would have been awesomely ironic, and not resulted in a presumably innocent man getting killed because Wyatt is a hapless dumbass. No, Wyatt didn't intentionally kill him, but he was directly responsible for his death.

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Not that he deserved to die, but I just stopped and realized how much of a shitty person and brother that bartender was.

He spent parts of the episode getting phone calls from his sister, and then explained that she lived alone with a kid and was having flooding problems - in the middle of a possible tornado - but instead of going to make sure everything's alright with his family, he ignores all else but the attractive stewardess he wants to slip the sausage [& man-naise] to. 

 

I'm pretty sure the roads were closed, though? Which is why the guy was worried: he couldn't get to his sister, and then the phones went out too and he couldn't call her either. It is funny that instead of asking a cop to check on his sister or something, he very quickly forgot about her and started hooking up with the stewardess instead.  There were a lot of things about this episode that highlighted how clumsy the plotting is on this show sometimes. The best thing, as usual, was Rufus. I could watch him geek out over old TV shows all day. "MANIMAL!"

[benteen]

I was thinking it would be revealed that the bartender's nephew was the killer with hat fact that he got mentioned twice.

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IIRC, he never confessed to the murder of Wyatt's wife.  Flynn told Wyatt it was him, and when Wyatt asked him in prison, he broadly hinted that he was her killer.  Obviously, he was lying, and taking credit for a murder he never committed.  Maybe just to screw with Wyatt's head.

The serial killer implied that he did that but if Wyatt knew anything about serial killers, then he should have realized that serial killers lie.  A LOT.  It's not uncommon for them to confess to killings that they didn't actually do.

[dubbel zout]

I thought this was the worst episode so far. Of course Wyatt didn't get his wife back. As always, Rufus is stuck doing nothing, though his geeking out at PacMan and all the '80s TV shows was great. Please, Show, give Malcolm Barrett more to do!

I was really irritated that Lucy agreed to destroy the lifeboat only after she gets her sister back. Way to think of the greater good, Lucy. UGH. And you'd think that Wyatt not getting Jessica back might be an inkling Lucy won't get Amy back, but no.

This episode dragged, I thought. Or maybe there wasn't enough of a B or C story. I never really cared what Rittenhouse was up to, and the bits of additional information we learned this ep didn't change my feelings.

[Latverian Diplomat]

11 hours ago, KaveDweller said:

 It seems like pretty bad planning that Wyatt didn't account for the plane landing early. I know planes are known for being late, but it's kind of an important event. He should have been there an hour ahead of time.

Or you know, since he has a time machine, just go back half an hour and try again?

In fact, the dad, being a local resident, was a much better target for interference. Just make sure he doesn't make it to work that day. Problem solved.

Also, Wyatt, researched the people and the circumstances, but somehow missed that there was a major storm that closed roads for an extended period? 

[GoMocs]

If Rittenhouse is the problem, the original guy, just go back to when he was a kid and kill him...why do all these crazy attempts to manipulate history if you can just "nip it in the bud"?

[tennisgurl]

Oh my God, a Mannimal reference! This episode automatically gets a million points! Rufus is just the best. No wonder that 80s chick was all over him.

Sadly, Rufus geeking out about 80s things was probably the highlight of the episode, besides some good acting from our main cast. Like, I actually did feel bad for Wyatt was he was getting dragged away, screaming about Jessica. Mostly just because of the acting though. Wyatt himself is an idiot and kind of an asshole. He screwed majorly with the timeline, and got a guy killed. Yeah it was an accident and he felt bad, but if it wasn't for him, that guy wouldn't have been out in a tornado, and he wouldn't have died. Bartender guy might have been a bit selfish, but he didn't deserve to die. Now his sister and her kids and the rest of his family will mourn him, because of what Wyatt did. He was selfish, plain and simple. Its understandable that he wants to save his wife, but this episode just proves that Wyatt is totally not the right guy for this mission. There really wasn't another military person without a recently deceased spouse? Anywhere? How can he still be a part of the team at this point? He has two jobs, to kill Flynn and protect the time stream, and he sucks at both! Maybe I would be more forgiving of Wyatt if we actually knew Jessica? As of now, she's just the Tragic Perfect Wife of every action hero ever, but who was she? What was she like, what were her hopes and dreams and quirks? All we know about her is that Wyatt loved her and...she was nice? She better have been freaking amazing if Wyatt has threatened to repeatedly ruin history for her.

Speaking of show don't tell, I'm really going to need to be shown Rittenhouse doing something evil soon. All anyone ever does is talk about how awful Rittenhouse is and how they want to control/rule the world or something and Flynn is standing up to them, but...why? Because, from where I'm standing, Flynn is one the we have seen murder tons of people, collaborate with Nazis and serial killers, and try to mess up history in ways that will certainly screw over countless people and history, and could possibly just cause history to just say "screw it" and implode, while Rittenhouse just hangs around being ominous and wanting to "control" stuff. I need to SEE Rittenhouse being evil if they're our Big Bads! Show us people they've killed, lives they've ruined! Show us how they killed MLK Jr., started the Great Chicago Fire, cancelled Firefly, something! Because, from where I'm standing, their just in some kind of stupid social club, while Flynn is a murder happy asshole. At least Anthony admitted they were just as bad as Rittenhouse. RIP Anthony.

That diner was so freaking 80s I felt like we had accidently wandered into San Junipero. And there were no awesome historical figures this week to do all the work for our main heroes! At least next week looks promising. Save us awesome historical characters, your our only hope!

[basiltherat]

I chuckled at the Flock of Seagulls'y hairdo as the boys arrived at the airport.  (Also, the kitchen in the bar may have been also where the bathrooms were, since a few of the guys met back there.)

No chuckling at Wyatt because I was too busy shouting at inept idiot Wyatt to cut off the guy's you-know-what or at least give him a kick in the gonads.

An episode clearly not fitting for Anthony's swan song.  As a fan of The Stand, I found it amusing that Trashcan died with a bomb in his hand intended for his boss, an evil guy with a five letter name beginning with "F".

[Sandman]

1 hour ago, withanaich said:

There were a lot of things about this episode that highlighted how clumsy the plotting is on this show sometimes. The best thing, as usual, was Rufus. I could watch him geek out over old TV shows all day. "MANIMAL!"

Agreed on both counts. Also, the Latverian Diplomat raises a decent point: if you have an actual, functioning time machine, you get a do-over, by definition.

Edited January 31, 2017 by Sandman

[Bort]

1 hour ago, maczero said:

Wyatt bears a lot more than some responsibility.  I'd say all.  Wyatt threatened and kidnapped the man.  The victim died while trying to escape his attacker so I'd say this at least qualifies as involuntary manslaughter.

If someone dies while you're committing a felony (i.e. kidnapping), legally it's still murder. Either way, it's a moot point, but I wonder what part of causing the guy's death will weigh on Wyatt more: that, or that it didn't undo Jessica's death. (My guess is the latter.)

[withanaich]

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Maybe I would be more forgiving of Wyatt if we actually knew Jessica? As of now, she's just the Tragic Perfect Wife of every action hero ever, but who was she? What was she like, what were her hopes and dreams and quirks? All we know about her is that Wyatt loved her and...she was nice? She better have been freaking amazing if Wyatt has threatened to repeatedly ruin history for her.

That's exactly why I don't care about Wyatt's Dead Wife Drama. I don't know her. I don't know anything about her, except that story he told to Bonnie and Clyde, and I'm sorry, but the actor and the writing are just not selling me on why I should care about this. I don't know why they felt they needed to shoehorn it in. I shouldn't be HOPING that one of the heroes fails the little mission he set for himself, but I am, because the whole thing is such a drag, has nothing to do with what we're watching this show for, and takes up precious minutes that could be spent explaining any one of a number of things they really should have explained already. 

At least Lucy's family drama is tied to Rittenhouse and the larger plot. If they're going to claim that Jessica was tied to or killed by Rittenhouse, then A) they should have been dropping some bigger breadcrumbs and B) they need to go ahead and make that reveal soon. I still won't like Wyatt, but at least it might give him some emotional relevance. 

[saber5055]

I thought this ep was pretty fun, and proved that no matter how much you know or how hard you try, it ain't easy to change fate. I liked Wyatt this time (even the stews thought he "was cute.") but he was still a dumbass on how to stop the bartender. As many here have commented, there were so many easier and better ways to decommission him. And what's with him getting all verklempt about that guy accidentally dying when he didn't blink an eye shooting Germans and Mexicans and wanting to kill Jess in cold blood, to say nothing of all the guys he (I'm guessing) killed in combat. And why was Wyatt jumped and arrested at the end and not Rufus? They both were in on the Eyeball theft. And WTH is Rittenhouse anyway. I can't even follow that line and what it has to do with going back to all of these historic events to change them. But ... whatever, I guess. Meanwhile, Rufus is my new tv boyfriend.

[Boofish]

The worst part of it all is that Wyatt did to the bartender's family what was done to him. Left a man dead for someone to find and they will NEVER know what happened to him.  He is the sole heir to the Massengill fortune and any ounce of empathy I had for him is now gone.

[Goldmoon]

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Show us how they killed MLK Jr., started the Great Chicago Fire, cancelled Firefly, something!

The trope of "arson, murder and jaywalking," heh?  The unfortunate thing is that Matt Lanter, as far as I know, is under contract to be the "hero" of this show.  If this were real life, Wyatt would be thrown in Gitmo.  Even if Jessica were alive again, he would never see her because he would be doing life in prison for treason.  I hope they arrested Rufus too.  He is the only character I really like and sympathize with (Christopher isn't bad) but he stole the time machine.  Consequences, writers. 

I think they are implying that Rittenhouse is like the Dominionists/Vorlons.  That the order they would bring to the universe is on their terms: Conservative, all-white, Christian, only heterosexual, and strong believers that humans should have dominion over animals and not consider them to be creatures who feel pain and fear.  That everyone will be thrill to see the Rapture even though it will destroy the planet, but hey, Heaven!  As far as I can tell, Flynn is working for Rittenhouse, not against them.

[iMonrey]

This show is so frustrating. I really thought this episode was a step in the right direction, right up until the end. And then this happened: Lucy says Wyatt's wife is "still dead" but that the other two women killed by the same man were now alive.

Wait . . . what??? There is no way for Lucy to know that the timeline has changed because she didn't go on the trip this time. She cannot perceive both timelines. The way that should have gone down is Lucy saying "What other two women? There were never any other women associated with Jessica's death."

Remember . . . any time the time travelers "change" history, the people in present day perceive the new timeline as having always been that way. Otherwise, Lucy's mother would be all "Where's Amy? and Christopher et. al. would have been all "Wait, the history books changed and now it says someone other than John Wilkes Booth shot Lincoln!" But that's not how it works. Lucy's mother is not aware of any other time in which she had a daughter named Amy, and when Lucy & Co. returned from 1865, everyone at Mason Industries remembered Lincoln being shot by some rando. They'd never heard of Wilkes Booth.

Honesty . . . this show is so sloppily written the writers don't even have a grasp of how time travel works. That's bad enough, but even little details are off. Wyatt and Rufus were decked out in full Miami Vice regalia but those fashions weren't even made possible until 2 years later. Wyatt asks the cop if he was wearing a seat belt and the copy quips "No, because I'm not nine years old. HELLO. Cars in 1982 were already manufactured with seat belts that had to be fastened in order to start the damn car. It's the 80s, not the 50s. Who's writing this crap, 12-year olds?

It was also another fine example of Hollywood not understanding how tornadoes work. They seem to think they're like Hurricanes, with extended winds that last for hours. NO. You can be under a tornado watch or even warning and the skies can be perfectly clear and the winds calm. Tornadoes are generally at the leading edge of a storm. If it's raining and windy the tornado has already passed you by.

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I think Lucy knowing that Jessica was still dead was not a result of her own memories/knowledge 're-writing' itself to conform to the changes wrought by Wyatt&Logan's trip, but because she had looked at info from a database.  Noticeably indicated when Rufus grabbed the tablet she was holding and backing her up, saying the other two women were alive but Jessica was still dead.

That doesn't explain it either unless Mason has devised some sort of temporal shielding for their databases. Once Wyatt prevented the killing of the other two women there should not have been any way for present day characters to have any knowledge they had ever been killed. Period.

[dubbel zout]

I don't need to know more about Jessica. She'll still be dead, Wyatt will still be mourning her, and I still won't care.

[LoneHaranguer]

11 hours ago, phalange said:

Lucy found out her dad is part of an organization trying to destroy the country.

Rittenhouse and the country are entwined and Flynn has been risking the latter to take down the former. The organization wants to meddle in its own interest, so, if anything, they want to better the country. Not that that won't have collateral damage, but things are going to suck for some folks regardless of the timeline.

1 hour ago, Latverian Diplomat said:

In fact, the dad, being a local resident, was a much better target for interference. Just make sure he doesn't make it to work that day. Problem solved.

They didn't know dad was the bartender. Apparently, Wyatt's research on him stopped with getting a photo.

[tennisgurl]

28 minutes ago, Goldmoon said:

Conservative, all-white, Christian, only heterosexual, and strong believers that humans should have dominion over animals and not consider them to be creatures who feel pain and fear.  That everyone will be thrill to see the Rapture even though it will destroy the planet, but hey, Heaven!  As far as I can tell, Flynn is working for Rittenhouse, not against them.

That's how their founder seemed to be, but it seems like things have changed in Rittenhouse. They had that black female doctor who was a Rittenhouse agent, and her family had been with them for generations in the 1970s, so they don't seem to be racist or sexist anymore, and the Bad Dad seems to be all into bringing Lucy into the fold. So, I think Rittenhouse just seems to be the typical "Evil People Who Sit in Poorly Lit Rooms and Rule the World" types, without any real philosophical or theological ideology. Or maybe they do. Again, what drives me nuts is that we don't know anything about these people. We know that their founder in the revolutionary war era was an asshole, but so were lots of people back then, by todays standards. We don't know what they want now, other than "control". And, as shown by the Doc in the 70s, they seem to have gotten more progressive, even if it was just for pragmatisms sake. If Flynn is supposed to be tearing apart history and murdering people to stop these guys, we need something to actually make us see how awful they are.

[CooperTV]

I have a couple good things to say about the episode. None of them directly related either to the A plot or to the B plot. Firstly, everyone looked really pretty in this. I think make-up team did amazing job. I particularly liked Jiya who looked stunning! I think those 1980s affected the make-up department's brains for a while. Also: Rufus's and Wyatt's color-coordinated matching outfits? Wyatt has some skills!

Secondly, that scene with Lucy and Wyatt when he came to say goodbye. My heart! And then they made a call back to that  in Lucy's conversation with Jiya with all that mushy BS that if someone cares and loves other person, they'd say goodbye and be honest. So much anvils, writers!

Wyatt and Rufus's Excellent Adventure was boring. Not only it was bottle episode, it was creepier version of Pretty in Pink meets The Terminator meets awkward gay jokes (WTF with that?). Not only it was exercise in futility for Wyatt, as everyone already guessed someone else killed St. Jessica, but he had to be somewhere in the middle of a sliding scale of the creeps preying on Serial Killer's Mom, caused a death of perfectly fine dude and suffered even more psychological damage. At least those nameless victims of the serial killer are alive now, I guess??

Anthony had the weirdest arc on this show, and it just... ended, and they refused to explain anything outside of "Everything is garbage, destroy all time machines!". Okay then. BTW, Garcia Flynn s the actual worst, and I want Rittenhouse to end him, and then Team Eyeball to end Rittenhouse.

Oh no, Lucy's family drama and the Rittenhouse dad. How exciting.

[BooBear]

1 hour ago, saber5055 said:

I thought this ep was pretty fun, and proved that no matter how much you know or how hard you try, it ain't easy to change fate. I liked Wyatt this time (even the stews thought he "was cute.") but he was still a dumbass on how to stop the bartender. As many here have commented, there were so many easier and better ways to decommission him. And what's with him getting all verklempt about that guy accidentally dying when he didn't blink an eye shooting Germans and Mexicans and wanting to kill Jess in cold blood, to say nothing of all the guys he (I'm guessing) killed in combat. And why was Wyatt jumped and arrested at the end and not Rufus? They both were in on the Eyeball theft. And WTH is Rittenhouse anyway. I can't even follow that line and what it has to do with going back to all of these historic events to change them. But ... whatever, I guess. Meanwhile, Rufus is my new tv boyfriend.

All of this but in no way did I think this episode was fun.  I cringed so hard at how incompetent Wyatt was. I really thought when he went back he would have been prepared but he MISSED the flight. YOU HAD ONE JOB!  But at that point I would have taken no further chances and immediately lured that guy (maybe mom)  to a room and knocked him out. DONE. But no, Wyatt still kept playing with it.   I don't buy the whole fate is playing with you. They were stuck in a hotel during a twister watch... that is going to keep them bumping into each other. But Wyatt should have known the entire night back and forth. And then for that poor innocent guy to die like that... tragic.  This guy is supposedly Delta Force but it seems more like he is in the slow group.  I think Wyatt was verklempt because this guy was sort of completely innocent and as was pointed out above he sort of did to someone else's family what was done to him. 

Equally tragic was Anthony's death and did I miss it, who is piloting the pod?  I was bored by Lucy's storyline. I think the three of them make the most effective team.

I think the writers might be going for Wyatt as some key to the Rittenhouse plot. Because I see zero chemistry with Wyatt I would prefer if he turned out to be her brother.  But there has to be some non-competance related reason for them continuing to keep him around.

[meep.meep]

5 hours ago, Randomosity said:

Ha. Because I was both curious about the show's setting and also a map dork, I froze the screen while they were 'tracking' Lucy. While she was first walking down a city block, the tracker had her on highway 280 in the middle of NOT the city, way south of SF, closer to Palo Alto. Then when they lost her signal, the map was back in SF, showing Market/Mission/downtown/civic center. Then when it blinked back on, it was on the highway again, but a good chunk further north in San Bruno, near the airport. How hard would it have been to just stay on the downtown map? Jeez :P

They were supposed to be in San Francisco?  (you can tell how deeply I pay attention during this)  Because the one thing that doesn't occur here are tornadoes.  Pretty much ever.  They are flukes.  We don't get convection storms, we get atmospheric rivers.  

They need to fan wank some dialog about how the time machine can only get within an hour, that the settings aren't that precise.  Because otherwise, why not go back 30 minutes and meet the plane?  

For next season, I predict they will make a new machine, but its glowy lights will be red!

[Randomosity]

9 minutes ago, meep.meep said:

They were supposed to be in San Francisco?  (you can tell how deeply I pay attention during this)  Because the one thing that doesn't occur here are tornadoes.  Pretty much ever.  They are flukes.  We don't get convection storms, we get atmospheric rivers.  

They need to fan wank some dialog about how the time machine can only get within an hour, that the settings aren't that precise.  Because otherwise, why not go back 30 minutes and meet the plane?  

For next season, I predict they will make a new machine, but its glowy lights will be red!

San Francisco for the modern scenes. It's apparently where Mason Industries is based. The 1983 tornado was in Ohio (which is not even super tornado-y itself, but still, more likely there than SF, for sure.)

[dubbel zout]

46 minutes ago, BooBear said:

Equally tragic was Anthony's death and did I miss it, who is piloting the pod?

The lady they brought back last week. Emma, I think is her name.

[Bort]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

That doesn't explain it either unless Mason has devised some sort of temporal shielding for their databases. Once Wyatt prevented the killing of the other two women there should not have been any way for present day characters to have any knowledge they had ever been killed. Period.

After Lucy said Jessica was still dead, Rufus was the one who said the other two women were still alive. I don't know how he was able to tell this information from looking at the tablet Lucy had, unless maybe it was an article that, by his perception, had said that three women were dead but now just said it was Jessica.

51 minutes ago, BooBear said:

Equally tragic was Anthony's death and did I miss it, who is piloting the pod?

Emma, the beer-loving former pilot that Flynn retrieved last episode. She said she could still pilot it.

[benteen]

The Rittenhouse storyline is such a mess.  It's the interaction between the characters, the eras that they visited and the guest stars that are the real strength of this show.

[Shanna Marie]

14 hours ago, Randomosity said:

Do people actually wear hideous robes like that though?

I do. I have hideous robes for each season -- the fuzzy (and getting threadbare) pink one for winter, a long satin one (fraying at the cuffs) for moderate weather, and a short satin one for warm weather. That's why I thought she looked rather authentic. Bonus for the robe not being a matched set with the pajamas and the pajamas not even looking like a matched set.

11 hours ago, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

Before rebuttals, yes I know, the bar was right next to (if not actually part of) the TEI, but just personally speaking, the safety and well-being of my sister and her kid(s) - in the present situation - is most likely going to prevent my sex drive getting and/or staying in overdrive. 

That was my thought. While he might not have been able to go do any good for his family, you'd think he'd have had other things going on and to worry about that would have kept him from being all that interested in banging a stewardess. Tornado warnings are generally over pretty quickly, and if he could have got away from the bar to go up to the flight attendant's room for sex, then he could have been checking on his sister. That doesn't mean he deserved to die, but it might suggest where his son got some of his genes.

14 hours ago, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

Man, the '80s really were super laid-back.  It seems the bar patrons spent as much time in the unattended kitchen as the actual bar.

It actually reminded me of an incident that happened with me about a year and a half before this episode took place. My family was driving across West Texas and had stopped for the night at a roadside motel. We were eating at the motel's restaurant, which was a separate building in the courtyard of the motel, when a killer dust storm hit -- so bad we couldn't even see the motel from the restaurant. It was a complete blackout, but red because it was red dust. Everyone who was in the restaurant was stuck there because it would have been dangerous even crossing the parking lot to get to the motel room. And we pretty much did wander all over the place, hanging out with the staff, going to the back where the restrooms were, which meant going through the kitchen. The chef had a watermelon that he sliced to share with everyone, and then he passed out desserts. It ended up being kind of a fun time, at least for me as a kid.

2 hours ago, kariyaki said:

If someone dies while you're committing a felony (i.e. kidnapping), legally it's still murder. Either way, it's a moot point, but I wonder what part of causing the guy's death will weigh on Wyatt more: that, or that it didn't undo Jessica's death. (My guess is the latter.)

I got the feeling it was already weighing on him before they went back to the present. He had tears in his eyes as they were buckling up, and he was really upset and freaked out. The only thing that kept him going and got him through it was reminding himself that he'd saved Jessica's life. Then he got back and learned that he hadn't, and he completely snapped. When they were dragging him away, he was hysterical and couldn't accept the knowledge.

[possibilities]

My idea of not hurting anyone includes not holding them at gunpoint or otherwise threatening them. I imagine that the stewardess left in the motel room was not only traumatized by the intrusion, but also by the inevitable news story about the guy being found dead in the parking lot later.

[Sandman]

It's probably a reach to say that the "gift" of being part of Rittenhouse that's "in [her] blood" includes an ability to perceive multiple timelines, right?

Yeah, that's what I thought.

2 hours ago, LoneHaranguer said:

The organization wants to meddle in its own interest, so, if anything, they want to better the country. Not that that won't have collateral damage, but things are going to suck for some folks regardless of the timeline.

Well, technically, the members of Rittenhouse may only have their own self-interest in mind. They might not even bother with the fiction of acting for the greater good -- though these shadow hierarchies usually mess about with that sort of self-justifying claptrap -- at least the television versions. (Except maybe the Stonecutters.)

And, hey, I have no trouble believing that these yahoos are behind the cancellation of Firefly. Maybe they're even suppressing unaired episodes, who knows? Except the Mothership makes me think of CBS, rather than Fox; go figure.

[Netfoot]

1 hour ago, meep.meep said:

why not go back 30 minutes and meet the plane?

Because 30 minutes later, they would encounter themselves arriving late for the party!

[withanaich]

2 minutes ago, Sandman said:

It's probably a reach to say that the "gift" of being part of Rittenhouse that's "in [her] blood" includes an ability to perceive multiple timelines, right?

Yeah, that's what I thought.

I assume Creepy Bio-Dad meant that she's a direct descendant of Rittenhouse Jr. (the creepy little twerp she stopped Flynn from killing). That would be a pretty neat twist, which I also assume means we will never actually learn what "gift" dude was referring to, even if the show does get picked up for another season. 

There is no way Lucy could have remembered the "original" timeline (the one in which the serial killer was conceived) unless she started a new journal and got Wyatt to take it on board with him. And asking us to assume that's what happened is just a bit much, even for this show. 

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

5 hours ago, Boofish said:

So I guess I'm alone in thinking that the nephew is the killer Wyatt was looking for? They mentioned the sister and troubled kid in a trailer park twice. Once too many for it to be insignificant. I was wondering if they got married and took custody of the nephew who in turn killed Jessica. He left the nephew alive which is why Jessica is still dead

That is a really good and interesting spec.  I never even thought about giving it a chance.  Would certainly drive Wyatt crazy if true.

5 hours ago, withanaich said:

I'm pretty sure the roads were closed, though? Which is why the guy was worried: he couldn't get to his sister, and then the phones went out too and he couldn't call her either. It is funny that instead of asking a cop to check on his sister or something, he very quickly forgot about her and started hooking up with the stewardess instead.

Damn, I did forget - or didn't register - those mentions. 

I guess maybe I'm too square or whatever; if I can't actually check on them - or have someone trustworthy to do so - my worry about it all is probably going to prevent me wondering how I'm going to seduce a woman so I can get lucky for the night.

Edited January 31, 2017 by iRarelyWatchTV36

[iMonrey]

Quote

After Lucy said Jessica was still dead, Rufus was the one who said the other two women were still alive. I don't know how he was able to tell this information from looking at the tablet Lucy had, unless maybe it was an article that, by his perception, had said that three women were dead but now just said it was Jessica.

There was nothing in the news to link Jessica's death to the other two women. It was Flynn who told Wyatt this serial killer was also responsible for Jessica's death. If it was common knowledge, or even speculated on, Wyatt would have already known about the guy. So what the hell was Lucy looking at? An article about Jessica's death? There wouldn't have been any mention of the two other women in that article since nobody (except Flynn) had ever linked them to Jessica's death.

Look - this was just very sloppy writing. The writers were trying to short-hand the fact that Wyatt did manage to prevent the birth of the serial killer (hence "the two other women are alive") but that either Flynn and/or the killer lied about also killing Jessica, or else someone else ended up killing Jessica. 

The show has demonstrated, time and again, that the writers simply do not care to deal with the ramifications and implications of time traveling. Every time the team returns from a trip to the past, they have altered history in some way or another. And the writers just don't want to deal with it. Lack of ability, lack of interest - I don't know. Bottom line, I agree with the recapper Chris Huff: " I don't think the writers have been respectful enough with the way they treat the mechanics of time travel, and they asked the viewers to provide them with a trust that hadn't been earned."

[Dowel Jones]

If the phones were out, wouldn't it be as likely that the power would be out, seeing as how the same poles carry both wires?

As the cop would have seen Wyatt's ID and the flight attendant could also give a good description of him for reference, wouldn't he be on some kind of BOLO list?  Even 20 years later, if they kept evidence around, he might get tripped up while enlisting in the Army.  Pretty big risk, there. 

Too bad Jessica didn't survive and ended up working for Rittenhouse.

Let's hope that Wyatt and Rufus at least took the time to retrieve some 1980's cash instead of trying to palm off some oversized Lincoln and Jackson money on the bartender.

[blackwing]

I enjoyed this episode, and I guess Wyatt has grown on me, because I really felt bad for him.  In the early episode when he tried Western Unioning a telegram to Jessica from 100 years or so in the past, I just laughed at him.  But I felt bad for him here.  He finally learned the name of Jessica's killer and he really thought that this was going to save her.  I know there probably have to be consequences for his actions but I hope not long term.  I do like the three characters as a team.

I couldn't care less about Anthony.  I don't believe for an instant that he blew up the ship.  Maybe something detonated, but it was just the bomb after Flynn discovered him and killed him.

Seems pretty obvious that Lucy is going to work with Rittenhouse, and keep a journal which somehow gets future-zapped back to present day.  Maybe Flynn finds it in the mothership one day.  

16 hours ago, benteen said:

If Wyatt knew anything about serial killers, he would have known that you NEVER trust serial killers.  They often confess to murders that they didn't commit, along with the ones that they did commit.  The guy in prison technically never confessed to Wyatt but just seemed to be playing mind games.  I like Wyatt a lot but he is really inept at all this.

To be fair to Wyatt, that guy was named as the killer by Garcia Flynn.  Flynn gave him the name as a show of good faith.  Then the guy confessed and said he knew who Wyatt was, making it seem like the guy was paid to kill Jessica.  There was no reason for Wyatt not to believe him.

5 hours ago, withanaich said:

My husband thought Wyatt was going to end up sleeping with the woman to keep her away from the bartender, and end up being the one to father his wife’s killer. Which would have been awesomely ironic, and not resulted in a presumably innocent man getting killed because Wyatt is a hapless dumbass. No, Wyatt didn't intentionally kill him, but he was directly responsible for his death.

I thought the same.  I thought Wyatt was going to be desperate and determine this was the only thing he could do to prevent her from hooking up with the bartender.  Then he returns to 2017 and Lucy tells him that nothing has changed, Jessica is still dead and the story is unchanged.  Then he realises that he has to be the father mentioned in the story.

Regarding the nephew being the one who was the actual serial killer... I think that's an interesting theory, but I don't think that can be right.  Because the death of the bartender wiped out the existence of the killer we saw, and as a result, Rufus said the other two women are still alive.  So he was in fact their killer.  He just wasn't Jessica's killer, or if he was, Rittenhouse just found someone else to do it.

On 1/25/2017 at 5:51 PM, Just Here said:

Wait, they aren't going to Mississippi in 1870?

{Obligatory Karma Chameleon music video embed}

Thanks for this!  I haven't seen this video in over 30 years... I remember seeing it a lot back in the day when MTV actually showed videos and all I could remember about it was that it was set on a riverboat.  Completely forgot about the "story" of the guy who robbed all the women.  And listening to the lyrics, I STILL have no idea what the song is about.  I want to say that I think it's vaguely about being yourself, and if you aren't, then the Karma Chameleon is going to bite you and you get your just desserts?  Not sure how that applies to the pickpocket other than he got his karmic justice.  And I am still clueless about what red gold and green have to do with it.

They obviously picked this as the episode title because they were going to the 80s, and the fact that this was the title pretty much telegraphed the predictability of the fact that Wyatt would "do something" and that Jessica would still be dead.   

Edited January 31, 2017 by blackwing

[txhorns79]

Quote

The show has demonstrated, time and again, that the writers simply do not care to deal with the ramifications and implications of time traveling. Every time the team returns from a trip to the past, they have altered history in some way or another. And the writers just don't want to deal with it.

While I didn't love Stephen King's book 11/22/63, I did like the concept he offered of the past pushing back on people who tried to alter things, (i.e. the closer the main character got to altering the past in substantial ways, the more "the past" would place things in his way to try and stop him).  I feel like Timeless has shown some of the bad outcomes that occur when you mess with the past, but isn't really willing to take things all the way on that.     

[Bort]

16 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

While I didn't love Stephen King's book 11/22/63, I did like the concept he offered of the past pushing back on people who tried to alter things, (i.e. the closer the main character got to altering the past in substantial ways, the more "the past" would place things in his way to try and stop him).  I feel like Timeless has shown some of the bad outcomes that occur when you mess with the past, but isn't really willing to take things all the way on that.     

I'm going to respond to this in the Time Travel thread.

[Clanstarling]

3 hours ago, LoneHaranguer said:

They didn't know dad was the bartender. Apparently, Wyatt's research on him stopped with getting a photo.

Wyatt specifically said he was the bartender when discussing his research, to my recollection - basing this not only because I think I remember it, but because I looked for the bartender when they walked into the bar (and I hadn't paid attention to the photo).

2 hours ago, meep.meep said:

They were supposed to be in San Francisco?  (you can tell how deeply I pay attention during this)  Because the one thing that doesn't occur here are tornadoes.  Pretty much ever.  

We had one in Sunnyvale, in the South Bay, back in 2000, I think it was. Maybe 1999. I remember driving on an overpass, seeing the funnel cloud and thinking "that can't be a tornado," but it was. Fortunately it did not do much damage.

As for the time traveler's base being in San Francisco - I totally thought they were in the east, close to DC. Nothing about what they've shown looked like the Bay Area to me until this episode, and those were just basic city streets.

Frankly, I think Rufus not telling his girl showed a lot of consideration and love. Wyatt telling Lucy, maybe. But it feels pretty strange to me to call it that when the guy is sneaking off to save his wife, presumably the love of his life. (To be fair, I was pissed off that Tom Hanks got over his wife, the love of his life, so quickly in Sleepless in Seattle and therefore hated the movie, so my perception isn't necessarily common)

Edited January 31, 2017 by Clanstarling

[Randomosity]

8 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

Nothing about what they've shown looked like the Bay Area to me

Probably because they're filming in Vancouver, which is definitely not SF. Although I agree, I could be convinced by yesterday's street shots.

 

8 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

(To be fair, I was pissed off that Tom Hanks got over his wife, the love of his life, so quickly in Sleepless in Seattle and therefore hated the movie, so my perception isn't necessarily common)

Hadn't it been a few years? Seems reasonable to me... Then again, I've never been in the position of having to get over a spouse's death, so I guess I can't really comment ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Maximum Taco]

3 hours ago, meep.meep said:

They need to fan wank some dialog about how the time machine can only get within an hour, that the settings aren't that precise.  Because otherwise, why not go back 30 minutes and meet the plane? 

He can't go back 30 minutes and try again, because then there would be two Wyatts and two Rufuses (Rufi?) existing in the same time. Suppose, they show up at 1:30 discover the plane landed early and then go back to 1:00. When 1:30 rolls around again there would be two of each of them (the two that showed up at 1:30 and the two more that showed up at 1:00 and let half an hour pass.) They've already said they can't visit a time where they already exist, that includes the time traveller versions of themselves, not just their past selves.  

It's the same reason why they can't just go back to the Hindenburg crash (or any of their previous trips) and save Lucy's step-dad to get her sister back (or fix history, or try again to catch Flynn), they were all present in that time.

Edited January 31, 2017 by Maximum Taco

[Shanna Marie]

57 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

Frankly, I think Rufus not telling his girl showed a lot of consideration and love. Wyatt telling Lucy, maybe. But it feels pretty strange to me to call it that when the guy is sneaking off to save his wife, presumably the love of his life.

I thought that trying to parallel those two didn't quite track. Wyatt told Lucy not out of some kind of trust or bond (though he wouldn't have told her if he hadn't trusted her), but to protect her, so that she could be the one to report him. Rufus telling Jiya would have not only put her at risk, but would have ruined Wyatt's efforts to protect Rufus. If the bosses had ever found out that Rufus had told anyone else anything, it kind of ruins Wyatt pretending to be forcing Rufus at gunpoint.

And it is kind of hard to see a man telling a woman that he's heading off to try to bring his dead wife back as a sign of true love for anyone but his wife.

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, Randomosity said:

Probably because they're filming in Vancouver, which is definitely not SF. Although I agree, I could be convinced by yesterday's street shots.

 

Hadn't it been a few years? Seems reasonable to me... Then again, I've never been in the position of having to get over a spouse's death, so I guess I can't really comment ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

It's been a long time since I saw it (given that Hanks and I were both young and the movie just out), but as I recall it was far shorter time period than that. A fan of the film would know better. I only remember my dismay at the time, not the specifics. But I only mentioned it as an example of how I don't always react to "love" plots the way many do.

22 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

I thought that trying to parallel those two didn't quite track. Wyatt told Lucy not out of some kind of trust or bond (though he wouldn't have told her if he hadn't trusted her), but to protect her, so that she could be the one to report him. Rufus telling Jiya would have not only put her at risk, but would have ruined Wyatt's efforts to protect Rufus. If the bosses had ever found out that Rufus had told anyone else anything, it kind of ruins Wyatt pretending to be forcing Rufus at gunpoint.

And it is kind of hard to see a man telling a woman that he's heading off to try to bring his dead wife back as a sign of true love for anyone but his wife.

Yes, you said it far better than I.

Edited January 31, 2017 by Clanstarling

[KaveDweller]

8 hours ago, withanaich said:

My husband thought Wyatt was going to end up sleeping with the woman to keep her away from the bartender, and end up being the one to father his wife’s killer. Which would have been awesomely ironic, and not resulted in a presumably innocent man getting killed because Wyatt is a hapless dumbass. No, Wyatt didn't intentionally kill him, but he was directly responsible for his death.

I thought that too. It would have been very ironic and sad for Wyatt. Plus the idea of fathering a kid in the past opens up the door for a lot of interesting storylines. Even if the kid didn't kill Jessica, he would have a kid who is almost his own age and who he could meet as an adult.

7 hours ago, GoMocs said:

If Rittenhouse is the problem, the original guy, just go back to when he was a kid and kill him...why do all these crazy attempts to manipulate history if you can just "nip it in the bud"?

Flynn tried to do that in the Benedict Arnold episode. It didn't work so well for him, mainly because Lucy wouldn't let him kill the original Rittenhouse's kid. Maybe if she did, this would all be over.

6 hours ago, iMonrey said:

That doesn't explain it either unless Mason has devised some sort of temporal shielding for their databases. Once Wyatt prevented the killing of the other two women there should not have been any way for present day characters to have any knowledge they had ever been killed. Period.

None of the present characters DID have any knowledge of the other women being killed. Lucy remembers that Jessica died and that  Wyatt went back to save them, because that didn't change. When she heard that the machine was back, she knew that since she remembers Jessica dying it didn't change, so she probably pulled up the story on her death to see what details were there while they were getting out of the machine. She didn't say anything about the other women. No one from the present did.

After she said Jessica was alive Rufus took the tablet. He was back in time so he would have the original memories. They showed him bent over the tablet for a few seconds before he said anything, so it looked like he was looking up something. Mason probably has some database of people, and Rufus probably looked up the names of the other women. Or maybe he just Googled them and saw that they have active Facebook pages or something. It was a super fast search (because it's TV), but there was definitely time where he appeared to be working with the tablet. 

9 hours ago, Boofish said:

So I guess I'm alone in thinking that the nephew is the killer Wyatt was looking for? They mentioned the sister and troubled kid in a trailer park twice. Once too many for it to be insignificant. I was wondering if they got married and took custody of the nephew who in turn killed Jessica. He left the nephew alive which is why Jessica is still dead

I think they just kept mentioning the sister and nephew to try and make the bartender a sympathetic character, and not just some random dude who has one night stands and fathers serial killers. And so we'd know someone was going to miss him after Wyatt killed him.

2 hours ago, Randomosity said:

Hadn't it been a few years? Seems reasonable to me... Then again, I've never been in the position of having to get over a spouse's death, so I guess I can't really comment ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

In Sleepless in Seattle it was a year-in-a-half since the wife had died.

I think I liked this episode less than others, because the chemistry between the three leads was lacking. Rufus and Wyatt alone in the past just didn't work as well as when Lucy is there. There was also a lack of an interesting historical character to meet. I guess the bartender and the woman were supposed to fill that role, but it just didn't work as well for me.

[Bort]

3 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

I thought that trying to parallel those two didn't quite track. Wyatt told Lucy not out of some kind of trust or bond (though he wouldn't have told her if he hadn't trusted her), but to protect her, so that she could be the one to report him. Rufus telling Jiya would have not only put her at risk, but would have ruined Wyatt's efforts to protect Rufus. If the bosses had ever found out that Rufus had told anyone else anything, it kind of ruins Wyatt pretending to be forcing Rufus at gunpoint.

And it is kind of hard to see a man telling a woman that he's heading off to try to bring his dead wife back as a sign of true love for anyone but his wife.

Except that the best way to protect Lucy would've been to not tell her anything and steal the Lifeboat the way they did. They didn't need her to report anything, the alarms went off the second they initiated the launch. 

So I was in the same mindset as Jiya, Wyatt likes Lucy, though his mission to save his dead wife means they're a long way off from coupledom because he is sooo far away from moving past it, I don't even think he's started.

4 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

As for the time traveler's base being in San Francisco - I totally thought they were in the east, close to DC. Nothing about what they've shown looked like the Bay Area to me until this episode, and those were just basic city streets.

They had established west coast in the Vegas episode, because when Flynn got back (his base is in the same city somewhere), he and his goons drove to Vegas to pick up that nuclear device they stole and buried out there. I figured California, but hadn't really ascertained where until this episode.

[dargosmydaddy]

9 hours ago, Goldmoon said:

I hope they arrested Rufus too.  He is the only character I really like and sympathize with (Christopher isn't bad) but he stole the time machine. 

But Wyatt went through the charade of pretending Rufus was his hostage, which I could see the higher ups not believing but going along with just for the sake of there's still no replacement for Rufus. They'll pretend he was an unwilling participant so they can still have a pilot.

I loved Rufus geeking out over The A-Team! "Beast from the Belly of a Boeing" was a great episode.

Could anyone tell if bland-looking Wyatt-replacement in the preview was the same guy they almost replaced him with last time?

[ketose]

20 hours ago, green said:

Again, people CAN go back to a time they were alive in.  They just can't meet themselves there without pretty bad things happening to them.  Rufus said that twice and some people posted his quotes in the last episode's thread.  And it has already been down twice by the late, lamented Anthony who dies in the current time but not in the two times he was in but his double was elsewhere.  To wit, 1969 (moon landing) and 1972 or 1973 (Watergate).

In other news Wyatt looks in the mirror and sees Flynn staring back at him.  Two idiot peas in a pod.

The show can pretty much decide that Anthony is younger than he looks, or that being in the pod "protected" him in 1972. I'm more curious about the mechanism for not being in the same time / place because what makes you who you are is kind of arbitrary from a molecular standpoint.

 

18 hours ago, bros402 said:

1. I did not think this took place in San Francisco at all. If they had said they were on the west coast, I would've thought Seattle, if anything - shows usually portray SF as hilly... or sunny.

2. Since Lucy didn't travel this time, were her memories modified for this, or for all of the past things? Does traveling in the previous episodes protect her from her memories of those events changing?

It seems like the people not in the pod only know where and when the pod was when it came back. Lucy usually figures out why from that alone. I assume she remembers Wyatt's wife because she's still dead. I'm not sure how they knew about the other women.

 

I am tired of this show being "The Misdeeds of Rittenhouse" rather than a time travel show. Flynn is cutting a bloody swath through history and yet nothing changes. It makes it very obvious that Rittenhouse exists only because the writers need it to. The Legends of Tomorrow is almost more logical.

[augmentedfourth]

Trying to work out the logistics of what would have happened if Wyatt had been successful makes my head hurt. So he tells Lucy he's going to steal the lifeboat to go back in time in an effort to save his dead wife, Lucy tells Agent Christopher (and I'm assuming Jiya, and who knows who else)...and then when he shows up, they'd be wondering why he stole it in the first place? I guess it's like in previous episodes, where they come back to a world where some random guy shot Lincoln and not John Wilkes Booth. There has to be a line where one minute, you know Lincoln's killer was John Wilkes Booth, and the next, you know that Lincoln's killer was never caught. But how often in your daily life do you think about who shot Lincoln? Here, the present team seemed pretty focused on the stolen lifeboat and Wyatt's reason for stealing it (when they weren't dealing with Anthony, anyway), so it seems like it would be more of an abrupt change. Ugh. Like I said, headache.

 

That said, I'm not as worked up over the two other women. As others have pointed out, Rufus did grab the tablet and was the one to reveal that they were still alive. Someone with a better memory than me will know, did anyone else beside Rufus know about the two other women? If not, then my ramblings in the previous paragraph don't apply. ;)

 

I also thought Wyatt was going to wind up sleeping with the stewardess to prevent her from sleeping with the bartender. (Though I didn't consider him fathering the killer - that would have been an interesting twist!) And then I thought she might sleep with the other guy and still father the killer. Oh well. But I totally called Anthony's death, so at least I can put something in my win column for the night.

 

Rufus is awesome. The end.

[Bort]

24 minutes ago, dargosmydaddy said:

Could anyone tell if bland-looking Wyatt-replacement in the preview was the same guy they almost replaced him with last time?

Yes, it was him. I recognize the actor from the last season of the show, Motive. 

[Raja]

22 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Speaking of Miami Vice, when Wyatt and Rufus walked into the bar, I got a Crocket and Tubbs flash.

I got a flash of Crocket and his undercover alter ego Burnett. Besides being black and white like most buddy cop teams from Starsky and Hutch (for me) on forward each partner had his unique style for easy visual reference. Even Ponch and Jon on CHiPs had different colored gloves and Jon had a ash baton on his motorcycle to match his tan gloves. Philip Michael Thomas Tubbs/Cooper had his own unique look and wasn't a clone of Don Johnson's look used for the show and became the normal look associated with Miami Vice

 

When the officer made a quip about 9 year olds wearing seat belts, it reminded me going into the Army in 1984 the Commanding General of Fort Riley ordered all soldiers to wear seat belts and for motorcycle riders to have on reflective vest. The State of California followed shortly after my discharge but in the late 70s new cars were starting to be fitted with automatic seat belts and noise makers for those who refused to wear them.