S08.E05: Another Catfishing

[Alapaki]

3 hours ago, laurakaye said:

This has been Kody's MO from Day One.  When confronted with the unpleasant and messy emotions of his women-folk, he goes into his frozen-caveman mode, as in: "if I sit here real still, and make my expression as blank as possible, and tune out whichever wife is talking to me, maybe she'll get frustrated and go away, and then I can take a nap on whichever wife's couch I will find the least amount of stress/noise/children/household tasks."  He is the King of Avoidance, and his wives are paying the price for marrying this overgrown pretty-boy who fancies himself a highly desirable, free and easy, laid-back surfer dude.  Jerk.

I think that someone who studies this sort of thing would have a field day analyzing Kody's body language.  

In his TH's, and in situations where he's "holding court" over his wives and kids, he pulls the steepled-hands/fingers move that's such an indicia of affecting superiority.  If you look up "steepled fingers", you'll see it's a classic move that supervisors use to keep their subordinates in line. 

But then whenever he's in a setting with a third party, especially one whose "authority" or opinions he can't easily dismiss, he goes into the crossed-arms shell (like he'd cover his ears and go "la la la" is he could).  

This was most obvious during that "session" with Nancy, near the end.

And, the thing is, in the most abstract sense he really does have a legitimate grievance with Meri's "relationship" with the catfisher.  But the fact that he's found a system that affords him three officially sanctioned side-pieces, combined with his grossly misplaced pride (which won't ever allow him to admit he got cucked by a woman) will never allow him to air that grievance (at least not on TV).

[Wings]

13 hours ago, Armchair Critic said:

Outline of the Catfishing from All About The Tea

Thank you.  I missed that season so I am catching up now.  Very helpful.  Surely Kody listened to her voice mails.  If only they weren't so hell bent on manipulating what is shown on TV.  Sigh.

I have changed my tune.  Their reaction to Mariah being gay was legit.  They are incapable of acting, that was very real.  The couch chat where Janelle said she will find the right person was taped at the end of this season.  They do that on the Bachelor with the THs, too. 

13 hours ago, Madding crowd said:

I don't think we can say Meri shouldn't be lonely or depressed; those are emotions you cannot control. And volunteering is a good thing, but it's not likely to provide deep emotional connections. I have experienced loneliness during periods when my husband was working three jobs; I think there is a special kind of loneliness a married woman experiences that single people don't. Once you are married, you expect your spouse to provide a certain amount of companionship as well as sex and emotional support. If you are not getting it, you will be lonely. I am also sure Meri's feelings and actions are well known by Kody, if not discussed on air. As far as her needing to get forgiveness from the other wives-I'm not sure how I feel about that. It seems like Kody has individual relationships with each wife and those relationships should have some element of privacy from the others. As far as the comments that Meri should spend her time taking care of the other kids; I believe she does spend some time with the kids. However, Christine has her mom living in, Robyn has her niece, and Janelle has no little kids. None of them work either, so they don't require babysitters.

I have been finding this whole season kind of boring. I have a mild dislike for some of the Browns, but no hatred so I am not watching in order to see a lonely, sad women be punished because she fell for a scammer. I thought the engagement pictures of Tony and Mykelti were all kinds of cheesy which fits in with the general tone of the family. Mariah's announcement? I don't know-it seemed an odd way to announce it. My nephew came out as gay a few years ago and his parents are extremely supportive. But they still had to get used to it, and Meri will too. If your child tells you they are gay, it is not that it is worse or better than being straight, it is just different. And being different in any way takes some time. 

My final thoughts on the catfish thing: I'm not sure I can agree that Meri is breaking the rules of their religion. The AUB religion they once embraced became the church of Kody, and now seems to be not much at all. They were originally against kissing, now Mykelti and her fiancé are teaching the younger girls how to French Kiss. The divorce between Meri and Kody was not done for any religious reason but because Robyn wanted the legal marriage. So, I think Meri and the other wives are really in a limbo land which is part of the reason they are so unhappy. I don't see Kody as being in love with any of them anymore (he was in love with Meri and then Robyn), and I think they are all unhappy in their own way. 

I agree with every word.  Good post.  

[hisbunkie]

1 hour ago, islandgal140 said:

What an asshat!  Seriously, I don't expect anything less from someone who once stated that he isn't responsible for his wives mental/emotional well-being. Kody said this in response when they were interacting a few seasons back with that other plyg family and the man stated he felt responsible for his wives emotional well-being and fulfillment.

Hold on!  Do emotionally healthy adults feel responsible for the emotional well being and fulfillment of their partners? Really?  

[ReadMeLattice]

21 hours ago, 3girlsforus said:

This is interesting. If this does apply to whatever the Browns believe and they could ditch Kody for a more 'middle of the road' heaven, I'd do it. Why be in hell now for higher level of heaven that still includes Kody when you can be happy now and be in a decent heaven later too that would be even better because Kody wasn't in it.

-polygamist families get their own planets in the celestial kingdom, where they create spirit babies for eternity

-Disobedient wives or those who don't obey the gospel go to the telestial kingdom (middle) or terrestrial kingdom (bottom). People from the celestial kingdom can visit them but they can never go to the celestial kingdom. They can't be with their families forever.

- outer darkness is only for people who have felt the Spirit and deny it.

(Former Mormon) 

[Natalie68]

15 hours ago, seasick said:

It seems the other wives are somewhat sympathetic and supportive to Meri, some of it out of loyalty to the family unit, but on the other hand I think they are pissed and rightfully so.   They all tried to go the extra yard to be  supportive and make Meri feel relevant when Meri spoke to them all about dealing with empty nest when Mariah first left and then the decision not to have another baby etc.    But then to find out that Meri's distancing behavior,  weight loss, refusal to engage with the others wasn't depression in need of support, but rather  from cyber-sexing it up in an online affair was a kick in the teeth.  I'm sure they felt suckered and used.  

It appears Meri has always held herself aloof from the other two wives and never wanted to be a part of the whole which is why I think the other two are okay with ignoring Meri. They stepped up that time but I'm sure they're saying to themselves "never again".  Her lack of honesty and openness to a friendship or relationship overall is very disrespectful to everyone.  When she was going to help Robyn with SWC she bailed on that "to go back to school" (and she didn't) which would have amounted to a few hours a week. Robyn had 4 kids.  It crushed Robyn and that was the purpose. It was a show of dominance from Meri because Robyn offered Meri her working uterus and Meri perceived that somehow Robyn might feel superior and Meri felt  'less than".   I think Robyn has really tried with Meri but she has had it too.  Meri is just a suck.  She gives nothing back.  She gave Robyn the benefit of having a legit marriage for the sake of the adoption because there was no reason not to. The affair made Meri's ' legal marriage" all the more meaningless so why not.  It was no sacrifice.  The catfish scandal proved once again that Meri is self-absorbed and doesn't feel as though she owes it to anyone to share of herself or be honest.    Meri feels above all that.   She''s basically a very jealous, bitter and self-pitying woman whether she faces it or not.  

I was glad they were revisiting the catfish scandal and Kody and Meri's relationship because it was such a huge elephant in the room.  Still.   Everything else was a farce until that was addressed. I think TLC finally realized it.  It was like they were stepping over a dead body in the room for every wedding or whatever else dumb thing they were up to until Meri could come clean --but of course that didn't happen.  Her attempts to save face just makes her look more foolish.  It's easy to see how she could believe those lies because she seriously thinks we can't see thru hers, even after the truth has been splattered over every form of media.     

I understand how and why Meri got sucked in and I truly am sympathetic to that.   Sometimes you don't know how empty or lonely you are feeling until someone hits that spot and then it's like an addiction.  I think most adults would truly understand that if she had just been honest with herself and others and had just been human about it. 

I wish Mariah's big secret was about changing her major--I think doing a whole deep-breath "big announcement" about it was strange.   It made a bigger deal about it than it is. and I don't think the show could force them to do it that way if the girl wanted to relay it in a low-key manner.  It's so common and accepted now, it's pretty much of a big 'so what'.  She knows her family is going to accept her for it.   To me,  ELLEN was "brave'".  The fight is over now.  These days she's just another kid who is gay.   And frankly I think the whole thing has a little odor to it.  I'm not one who usually would doubt someone's sexual orientation, but in this case I think it may be a  premature call.  Two sisters taking over the family with their weddings, and Mariah's lost in the shuffle.  Mariah discovers her mother could be wrapped up in someone other than Mariah and decides to reject mom and  punish her ad infinitum for not being perfect and having a human failing.  Wonder where she learned to withhold affection from those who crossed her  (real or imagined). Guess she's managed to get Herself the dominant, upper hand there.   So I'm sure she has a need to distinguish herself somehow and to have another reason to distance herself from Mom and claim now that Mom can never understand or relate to her.  I hope she's always 'free to be' whatever that turns out to be but this smells of more rebellion, shock value and punishment.  I think she's a cruel kid.  

I live in uber liberal CA and run a venue in a very liberal school.  Every Fall quarter we have the Coming Out Monologues where students either come out for the 1st time or talk about their experience coming out to their friends and family.  It is NOT common and accepted unfortunately and many of these students, again in liberal CA, talk of horrible consequences for coming out and I always end up in tears (tell my staff to have kleenex handy).  

Whether Mariah is truly a lesbian, bisexual, questioning, it isn't our business and who knows where she will be in a year but to question her own personal label is not giving her the respect she deserves and sounds somewhat condescending (not that that was your intention).  Take people at face value.

[ReadMeLattice]

I'm still not really sure why Kody should take responsibility for an affair. I'm sorry but monogamous or poly, cheating is cheating. If they were monogamous and Kody was a similar sort of asshole (aka not abusive but not really very good as a husband either), we wouldn't be blaming him for the affair, we'd say we kind of understood her feelings but it was really wrong to cheat. Remember, these are *Meri's* beliefs. If my husband took three other wives I'd go off with somebody else too, but only because it's not in my religion and personal beliefs that he would be allowed to! 

[zenme]

I feel Kody should feel,  perhaps not responsibility, but some real concern with how his partner is feeling, and if he's aware that his actions or his behavior have impacted Meri, he should want to address that. 

[ReadMeLattice]

@seasick, unfortunately that's not true at all (that it's a so what now). I wish it was when it's not. When I came out as bi I was disowned, told I was disgusting and should have never been born, etc., by my parents, and they aren't very conservative. My birthday was soon after that and my mom didn't say a word to me. Later she emailed me that she wished she'd had an abortion. Many of my friends had similar or much worse experiences (being beaten, kicked out of the house, losing a job, excluded from all family events). And I'm in my 20s so this was not long ago. 

"The fight is over now" is sooooo untrue. Laws still exist that allow discrimination against gays in the workplace. Hate crimes continue in large numbers. People still get physically or sexually assaulted for being trans or gay. Therapists still tell people they're just confused. People still get fired, disowned or shunned for it.

Edited January 3, 2017 by Lm2162

[Wings]

16 minutes ago, hisbunkie said:

Hold on!  Do emotionally healthy adults feel responsible for the emotional well being and fulfillment of their partners? Really?  

 In a marriage it is necessary to keep your finger on the pulse.  When one person is distressed by the others actions or words it is time to talk about it without blame or shame.  It doesn't necessarily mean one is right or wrong.  You have to show up and be present in a marriage.  

Both are responsible for keeping the marriage on track, their emotional health rests on each individual by participating in the damn marriage! 

They have no clue, clearly. 

I don't think either Kody or Meri are emotionally healthy so this is never going to happen. They both sweep things under the rug.  This marriage is over and done, there is no coming back.  

This plural marriage is on the verge of ruin.  I think they will continue to manipulate the footage unless TLC steps in to take the reins.  It would make a far more interesting show if it Meri left.  I would love to see how they handle it.  

Come on Meri, move to Atlanta, Carolyn is in the same-ish situation.  Free your self and buy a bunch of books on relationships and marriage before you date anyone.  She is a mess.  I feel badly for her even though she irritates me. 

[zenme]

I think I get what you're saying, Lm2162. I'm a liberal sort, and fully support my gay friends and family, but sometimes I wonder if I would feel differently if it were my own children. I would like to think not, but one can never know unless they actually experience something how they may react. We've come so far in our society, but we have much farther to go. I'm sorry for your pain.

[camom]

I think that if one of my (adult) children told me the he or she was gay, my initial response would not be one of joy.  I come from a generation where this was simply not accepted or discussed.  I would still love my child, of course, and would fully accept it, but my immediate reaction would leave me feeling torn.  And I don't have the religious baggage that these people have.

[ReadMeLattice]

7 minutes ago, zenme said:

I think I get what you're saying, Lm2162. I'm a liberal sort, and fully support my gay friends and family, but sometimes I wonder if I would feel differently if it were my own children. I would like to think not, but one can never know unless they actually experience something how they may react. We've come so far in our society, but we have much farther to go. I'm sorry for your pain.

Well, hopefully you wouldn't go as far as *my* parents lol, but yes, a lot of people who feel they're "accepting" don't realize how deep their internalized homophobia goes. 

I can't have any sympathy for that due to my experience (my parents made it about them and their feelings), but I do think it's important to note, as the gay marriage law made a lot of people go "OK, that one's work!" Yeah, no.

Edited January 3, 2017 by Lm2162

[Granny58]

14 minutes ago, wings707 said:

This plural marriage is on the verge of ruin.  I think they will continue to manipulate the footage unless TLC steps in to take the reins.  It would make a far more interesting show if it Meri left.  I would love to see how they handle it.  

Come on Meri, move to Atlanta, Carolyn is in the same-ish situation.  Free your self and buy a bunch of books on relationships and marriage before you date anyone.  She is a mess.  I feel badly for her even though she irritates me. 

Listen up TLC and Meri - This WOULD make an interesting show.  Scenes could go back and forth, see how Meri is doing and compare it to the pligs.  I see nothing but a win-win here.   

[Alapaki]

26 minutes ago, Lm2162 said:

I'm still not really sure why Kody should take responsibility for an affair. I'm sorry but monogamous or poly, cheating is cheating. If they were monogamous and Kody was a similar sort of asshole (aka not abusive but not really very good as a husband either), we wouldn't be blaming him for the affair, we'd say we kind of understood her feelings but it was really wrong to cheat. Remember, these are *Meri's* beliefs. If my husband took three other wives I'd go off with somebody else too, but only because it's not in my religion and personal beliefs that he would be allowed to! 

But, to paraphrase Kody's tweet (which was posted upthread), assigning some responsibility to Kody doesn't exonerate Meri.

Is it possible for 4 women to be truly fulfilled in a plural marriage?  I don't know.  What I do know is that Kody Brown is not the man to use to test that proposition.  

Is the wives' fulfillment beside the point, or not part of the equation?  Again, I don't know.  But then I guess that would be a whole other kettle of (cat)fish.

I checked out of the Real Housewives franchises when it got to the point that entire seasons were consumed with fights over stuff that happened off-screen (usually on social media) but which were, for whatever reason, not acknowledged onscreen.  And this show is getting to the same place.

My understanding is that pyramid schemes (let's call MLM what it is) are rampant in Utah, Nevada, and other nearby areas, and that there's something about Mormonism (or other cultural factors that coincide with a certain strain of Mormon communities) that either attracts them, fosters them, or at least allows them to flourish.  

It seems like the catfish's entree to Meri was 100% through her involvement in a pyramid scheme.  And that makes sense, since pyramid schemes almost by definition attract both grifters and easy marks.  But the only reason I know about that aspect of the story is from reading this board!  

That element of the story would be actually interesting, informative and insightful into the lifestyle and the community that the show is ostensibly meant to depict.  Ignoring that element, for whatever reason, just makes the whole thing (to use a word someone used upthread) inauthentic.

[TurtlePower]

Just now, Granny58 said:

Listen up TLC and Meri - This WOULD make an interesting show.  Scenes could go back and forth, see how Meri is doing and compare it to the pligs.  I see nothing but a win-win here.   

Sure would. 

Nonetheless, Meri needs to get out and establish something for herself, even if it's not a show. 

[Wings]

20 minutes ago, Granny58 said:

Listen up TLC and Meri - This WOULD make an interesting show.  Scenes could go back and forth, see how Meri is doing and compare it to the pligs.  I see nothing but a win-win here.   

I would love that, too as I mentioned!  My imagination can run wild on this.  I don't understand their finances, that may be the glue that binds.  Now if TLC would tell Meri that's she will still be part of the show it could help her bail.  That could start a chain reaction of sorts.  She would need seed money.  We have been around the bush many times as to who really owns the houses.  If that has been discovered, I missed it.  

I am tired of the catfish story and Mariah coming out.  She will be fine. She most likely has gay and lesbian friends at school, thus having the courage to come out and move on openly. 

Edited January 3, 2017 by wings707

[ReadMeLattice]

How can you be tired of her coming out? It was 5 seconds lol! The rest of the show was all sidestepping around the catfish for the 8,000th time. 

[3girlsforus]

1 hour ago, Lm2162 said:

I'm still not really sure why Kody should take responsibility for an affair. I'm sorry but monogamous or poly, cheating is cheating. If they were monogamous and Kody was a similar sort of asshole (aka not abusive but not really very good as a husband either), we wouldn't be blaming him for the affair, we'd say we kind of understood her feelings but it was really wrong to cheat. Remember, these are *Meri's* beliefs. If my husband took three other wives I'd go off with somebody else too, but only because it's not in my religion and personal beliefs that he would be allowed to! 

He is responsible for the emotional abuse and neglect of his wife. She was wrong to cheat. That is on her. But basically abandoning his role and responsiblity as a husband while expecting her to be his wife causes real emotional pain. That's on him. He wants to say she cheated and now she needs to fix herself but he's completely removed from the situation. It doesn't work that way in a marriage. 

[zenme]

Yeah. I'm tired of the catfish story too. It's been caught, fried, and served up with a side of cole slaw. Sick of it! 

Hmm...now that I think of it, Meri sure was adamant that people understood she believed the catfish to be a man and not a woman.  I guess she could have some hang ups about Mariah's being homosexual after all. 

[TurtlePower]

2 minutes ago, 3girlsforus said:

He is responsible for the emotional abuse and neglect of his wife. She was wrong to cheat. That is on her. But basically abandoning his role and responsiblity as a husband while expecting her to be his wife causes real emotional pain. That's on him. He wants to say she cheated and now she needs to fix herself but he's completely removed from the situation. It doesn't work that way in a marriage. 

I'd like this 100 times if I could.

[Wings]

1 minute ago, Lm2162 said:

How can you be tired of her coming out? It was 5 seconds lol! The rest of the show was all sidestepping around the catfish for the 8,000th time. 

Lol!  

It isnt a big deal to me.  We raised our sons amidst fabulous gay and lesbian friends.   It has been part of my entire life.  I would not have been upset in the least, if one of my sons had been gay.  My parents had a gay couple who were friends back in the 50s!   They weren't out in society but to their friends they were.  As a kid I was dazzled by their Haywood Wakefield furniture.  

[Marigold]

I am very surprised that the family did not suspect Mariah is gay. 

Most of us here suspected and if anyone has seen her social media, it should've crossed their mind.   Family had no idea?  Really?  How is that possible? 

I think the Browns are going to have to publicly support Mariah because they are painted in a corner.   If they shun Mariah for her personal life (gay) then they can be shunned for their personal choices (polygamy).  

When the cameras are rolling, Kody is going to be as accepting and open minded as he possibly can. Kody has enough smarts to play his role. The other wives will also play along.  

Privately, I don't think the family is OK with it.  Remember Meri saying "we don't go weird".  And I think Meri is going to be viewed as a total failure as a mother by her religion and her own family...and herself.   

I also don't think that was a re-enactment.  One of the few scenes that seemed real to me.  I'm sure producers set it up hoping Meri would flip a table or someone would have a religious freak out.  

[ladle]

So here's the situation: I go to my OnDemand to turn on this show, and the description says it's three hours long... which I figure MUST be a typo, right?  Then I turn it on, only to see that it is really that long.  I tell myself I'll suffer through as much of it as I possibly can, except that about ten seconds into the "previously on," my cable mysteriously turns off.  And I restart it, and it does that three times.  Now I'm not a superstitious person, but I have the sneaking suspicion that my TV might be on strike because I make it play this dreck every week.  And I can't blame it, except that it seems like stuff actually happened this time!  Please tell me it's not actually necessary to watch it, and I can just catch up on the snark here??

[Kohola3]

Quote

Family had no idea?  Really?  How is that possible? 

While every single adult is as dumb as a box of rocks, I don't believe for a hot minute that this was a surprise.  Mariah has been posting crap online for months.  She has umpteen brothers and sisters.  No way in hell nobody knew.  The whole "outing" was just another producer-driven plot point to keep the gravy train running.  

 

6 minutes ago, Marigold said:

Privately, I don't think the family is OK with it.  Remember Meri saying "we don't go weird".  And I think Meri is going to be viewed as a total failure as a mother by her religion and her own family...and herself.  

I fully agree.  One face for the public, one for behind closed doors.  Religious cult members are notoriously intransigent.

[Marigold]

1 minute ago, Kohola3 said:

While every single adult is as dumb as a box of rocks, I don't believe for a hot minute that this was a surprise.  Mariah has been posting crap online for months.  She has umpteen brothers and sisters.  No way in hell nobody knew.  The whole "outing" was just another producer-driven plot point to keep the gravy train running.  

 

I

The coming out seemed real. But they HAD to have suspected.  It's just so obvious. 

Although, maybe not?  Janelle is very checked out.  Christine was unaware that Mykelti was dating Tony so maybe she didn't suspect.  Meri? Maybe parents see what they want to see. Robyn probably suspected and kept her thoughts to herself. 

[ladle]

12 minutes ago, Marigold said:

I am very surprised that the family did not suspect Mariah is gay. 

Granted, I didn't see the episode (TV on strike and all that) but didn't "Sam" say that Meri had told "him" that Meriah was gay?  Like, well before any of this had even happened?

Sigh.  I feel like I'm missing out, but I guess it's just as well.  I only have a 2-hour window while my kid naps, anyway.  If only I had a sister wife to help me raise her (and share cankersores with me).  Stupid monogamy! 

[ghoulina]

35 minutes ago, 3girlsforus said:

He is responsible for the emotional abuse and neglect of his wife. She was wrong to cheat. That is on her. But basically abandoning his role and responsiblity as a husband while expecting her to be his wife causes real emotional pain. That's on him. He wants to say she cheated and now she needs to fix herself but he's completely removed from the situation. It doesn't work that way in a marriage. 

But we later learned that Meri TOLD him to stay away. I don't think Kody is an amazing husband. But, for one, I don't think most men would be amazing if they had 4 wives. It's nearly impossible. When both parties choose this lifestyle, they're setting themselves up for failure, IMO. Also, I think Meri was happy as long as she was queen bee. She was generally able to lord herself over passive Jenelle and peacemaker Christine. But Robyn was another issue. The dynamic really changed then. Should Kody have been more perceptive and worked harder to keep harmony? Sure. But I also think Meri plays a lot of passive aggressive games, likes to make herself out to be a victim and a martyr, and leaves you not knowing if you're coming or going. I think Kody is tired of trying to work on things with her because she makes it damn near impossible. And, at the end of the day, if things were THAT bad, she should have left before breaking her vows. 

[ReadMeLattice]

Exactly @ghoulina, when she told him to stay away I don't see how that's neglect. Wouldn't coming around when she specifically told him not to be violating her consent? 

[Marigold]

I'm reading here that Meri told Sam that Mariah had a girlfriend?

Seriously, Meri seems to be a pathological liar. I am beginning to think she has some serious mental health problems and not just a little wacky from being married to Kody and three other women.

Meri needs a psych eval.  Something is really wrong with her.  

[RedheadZombie]

3 hours ago, Roslyn said:

And that is why they won't have a "successful" and "fulfilling" polygamous family.  At the heart is the man and how he juggles all the women and children.  Kody has never been successful, and he doesn't care about their womanly emotions.  The biggest and most glaring thing wrong with the family is Kody.  He isn't a leader, he's as AssHat.

I didn't care much for that other polygamous man either, but when he said that if his wives were jealous, then it was his issue and he is failing them somehow...I did agree with him.  That statement shot holes through Kody and showed him for the selfish narcissist that he is. Even his show opening line "love should be multiplied, not divided" is a huge joke!!  For him the love and adoration is multiplied.  Wives, children.  Everyone wants Daddy's attention when he arrives (until they are old enough to get what everything is about anyway), yet the love that the wives and children RECEIVE...that is divided and divided some more.  I guess he should have paid more attention in that class...you know..the one with plusing and minusing.

I think the other polygamist you're referring to is Brady Williams.  I think he was a much better representative of a "proper" polygamist husband.  The guy looked absolutely exhausted at all times, and worked hard in his construction business.  He greeted each of his children every morning, and said goodnight to each of his wives.  They weren't as secretive as the Browns, but they refused to answer questions about birth control (my guess is they use it, and their families would disapprove).  They actually had a SL, which was shown and not just talked about, involving the first wife manipulating Brady's time when he was with his third wife.  It pretty much outed the first wife's guilt, which she claimed was unintentional.  But I felt that wasn't something we would see with the Browns.  The Williams family also had four of the six parents working, and the other two were students.  Although by the end, the last wife, who had a repeat reoccurrence of NOT having breast cancer, was encouraged to quit her full time job because they felt she was too stressed.  I also remember that the wives deferred discipline to Brady, and they ate together as a gigantic family unit five nights a week.  I'm not saying I would want to be a wife in that family, but they certainly received more support from at least one other wife, and their husband.

1 hour ago, Lm2162 said:

-polygamist families get their own planets in the celestial kingdom, where they create spirit babies for eternity

-Disobedient wives or those who don't obey the gospel go to the telestial kingdom (middle) or terrestrial kingdom (bottom). People from the celestial kingdom can visit them but they can never go to the celestial kingdom. They can't be with their families forever.

- outer darkness is only for people who have felt the Spirit and deny it.

(Former Mormon) 

Again, this reminds me of Scientology. 

[Galloway Cave]

1 hour ago, wings707 said:

In a marriage it is necessary to keep your finger on the pulse.  When one person is distressed by the others actions or words it is time to talk about it without blame or shame.  It doesn't necessarily mean one is right or wrong.  You have to show up and be present in a marriage.  

I've said it before and I'll say it again- the wives treat their marriages as monogamous marriages and Kody treats them as polygamous marriages. You saw a prime example of that at the end of the therapy session with Nancy. Their viewpoints are diametrically opposed and they will struggle every step of the way till; they die. Those four women will NEVER get what they want (even Robyn) until they all split up. In the meantime, Kody gets everything he wants. 

3 minutes ago, RedheadZombie said:

And that is why they won't have a "successful" and "fulfilling" polygamous family.

A successful and fulfilling plyg family is only available to a man. Never a woman.

[RedheadZombie]

30 minutes ago, Marigold said:

I am very surprised that the family did not suspect Mariah is gay. 

Most of us here suspected and if anyone has seen her social media, it should've crossed their mind.   Family had no idea?  Really?  How is that possible? 

I think the Browns are going to have to publicly support Mariah because they are painted in a corner.   If they shun Mariah for her personal life (gay) then they can be shunned for their personal choices (polygamy).  

When the cameras are rolling, Kody is going to be as accepting and open minded as he possibly can. Kody has enough smarts to play his role. The other wives will also play along.  

Privately, I don't think the family is OK with it.  Remember Meri saying "we don't go weird".  And I think Meri is going to be viewed as a total failure as a mother by her religion and her own family...and herself.   

I also don't think that was a re-enactment.  One of the few scenes that seemed real to me.  I'm sure producers set it up hoping Meri would flip a table or someone would have a religious freak out.  

I didn't blame Meri for that "weird" comment.  They were talking about how people ask if they all share the same bed, with the implication being they participated in wild orgies.  They're pretty uptight about their sex lives, remember how Robyn said a wife's pregnancy was painful because it was physical proof that Kody was having sex with them.  So having people believe they all have sex together would be trying on these strangely puritanical people.  I think the audience isn't the only one realizing it's gross to share sexual partners with your sister wife.

[Absolom]

28 minutes ago, Kohola3 said:

While every single adult is as dumb as a box of rocks, I don't believe for a hot minute that this was a surprise.  Mariah has been posting crap online for months.  She has umpteen brothers and sisters.  No way in hell nobody knew.  The whole "outing" was just another producer-driven plot point to keep the gravy train running.  

They had to know.  Not to mention they get plot outlines for filming frequently including lines or points to cover. Nothing on the show is a surprise or shock to them. 

[RedheadZombie]

2 minutes ago, Galloway Cave said:

I've said it before and I'll say it again- the wives treat their marriages as monogamous marriages and Kody treats them as polygamous marriages. You saw a prime example of that at the end of the therapy session with Nancy. Their viewpoints are diametrically opposed and they will struggle every step of the way till; they die. Those four women will NEVER get what they want (even Robyn) until they all split up. In the meantime, Kody gets everything he wants. 

A successful and fulfilling plyg family is only available to a man. Never a woman.

The post you responded to was credited to me, but I don't believe those are my words.  I actually think polygamy is quite difficult on the women and the men - especially if the men care at all about the happiness of their wives or children.  And while everyone seems to think these guys just want to bang multiple women, I remember Bill from Big Love having to take Viagra to please his wives.  He once asked for a night to himself a week, and the wives responded, "NO!".

[lookeyloo]

1 hour ago, camom said:

I think that if one of my (adult) children told me the he or she was gay, my initial response would not be one of joy.  I come from a generation where this was simply not accepted or discussed.  I would still love my child, of course, and would fully accept it, but my immediate reaction would leave me feeling torn.  And I don't have the religious baggage that these people have.

I was in my 50s when my son came out about 20 years ago.  It explained a lot.  For a minute I thought, well, I won't have grandchildren from him, we are Jewish (not religious but certainly identifiable) and now he is a member of two hated minorities, and I hope he stays safe, and then I thought, he is my son and I love him, so while I had to think about some things differently, nothing much changed.  He has a wonderful life, we love his husband, and moved to be closer to them.  I don't think we had "joy" when he told us, but, it wasn't misery or unhappiness either.  And life goes on.  

18 minutes ago, Lm2162 said:

Exactly @ghoulina, when she told him to stay away I don't see how that's neglect. Wouldn't coming around when she specifically told him not to be violating her consent? 

Sometimes people say the opposite of what they mean, hoping the other person will say "no you mean too much to me to agree to that".   I think if Kody came by and said to Meri "I love you and I want you" she would have liked that.  Healthiest of communication?  No.  Relatively common?  Probably.

[Marigold]

17 minutes ago, RedheadZombie said:

I didn't blame Meri for that "weird" comment.  They were talking about how people ask if they all share the same bed, with the implication being they participated in wild orgies.  They're pretty uptight about their sex lives, remember how Robyn said a wife's pregnancy was painful because it was physical proof that Kody was having sex with them.  So having people believe they all have sex together would be trying on these strangely puritanical people.  I think the audience isn't the only one realizing it's gross to share sexual partners with your sister wife.

Oh definitely.  I understood she was talking about people thinking the wives having group sex or sex with each other.

It was an interesting comment for a polygamist to say.   One person's "weird" is another person's "normal". She wants others to accept her normal...she might want to be more accepting of other people's normal. Now with Mariah coming out...  Is gay "weird"?  

I hope Meri will find peace with Mariah...  I think Meri loves Mariah very much and they will find their way.  But that "weird" comment from years ago makes me think it will be a bit bumpy. 

[questionfear]

1 hour ago, Marigold said:

I am very surprised that the family did not suspect Mariah is gay. 

Most of us here suspected and if anyone has seen her social media, it should've crossed their mind.   Family had no idea?  Really?  How is that possible? 

I think the Browns are going to have to publicly support Mariah because they are painted in a corner.   If they shun Mariah for her personal life (gay) then they can be shunned for their personal choices (polygamy).  

When the cameras are rolling, Kody is going to be as accepting and open minded as he possibly can. Kody has enough smarts to play his role. The other wives will also play along.  

Privately, I don't think the family is OK with it.  Remember Meri saying "we don't go weird".  And I think Meri is going to be viewed as a total failure as a mother by her religion and her own family...and herself.   

I also don't think that was a re-enactment.  One of the few scenes that seemed real to me.  I'm sure producers set it up hoping Meri would flip a table or someone would have a religious freak out.  

I wonder if Mariah purposely allowed it/wanted it to be a part of show for the optics. Her family can't cut her off/throw her out/send her to conversion therapy without TLC and every single viewer knowing about it now. She's basically protecting herself by being so open. 

I haven't watched the show all the way through in forever, but I believe her. She exists in a world where she's supposed to get married to a man and pop out babies. You don't torpedo that publicly for a few minutes of airtime. It also fits with her deep, deep desire to be far away from her family. Even if she had lived at UNLV, she would have been in constant fear of running into Kadoofus while also trying to come out.

I might be projecting here, because I opted to go several states away instead of to the very good program in the next town over, because I wanted space to come out and be myself without fear of running into my parents. Funnily enough, a few years ago my wife and I were walking in that same town, when we suddenly heard frantic pounding from the window nearby-my parents were out to dinner with friends and were waving hello. I pulled out my phone and texted my mother in all caps "THIS IS WHY I DIDN'T GO TO [STATE SCHOOL]." 

[Alapaki]

1 hour ago, ghoulina said:

But we later learned that Meri TOLD him to stay away. I don't think Kody is an amazing husband. But, for one, I don't think most men would be amazing if they had 4 wives. It's nearly impossible. When both parties choose this lifestyle, they're setting themselves up for failure, IMO. Also, I think Meri was happy as long as she was queen bee.

This is where I come down on the issue as well.  Kody's made sure to get that little detail (about Meri essentially kicking him out) a few times now.  Setting aside all of the polygamy stuff, here's a guy whose wife basically kicks him out, which he goes along with, thinking that she just "needs space", only to learn that what she needed was privacy to carry on an online relationship.  I think Kody could be excused for being pretty pissed off.  

But he's so committed to this phony idea of himself as some exalted patriarch that he can't acknowledge that's what happened.  Because it exposes him as being inadequate.  

So he's willing to go along with the storyline that he chose a certain family dynamic and it turned out that Meri was just too weak to dill with it.  That way, his getting cheated on is not the result (however direct or indirect) of his own neglect of Meri, but of her weakness as a polygamous wife.

I also totally agree with the "queen bee" observation.  In fact, while we were watching this last night my (only) wife remarked that she'd expect to see these four women getting together constantly to commiserate over how inadequate and incompetent Kody was, because it's fairly routine for lady-friends to commiserate (even if good-naturedly) about their husbands.  And that sort of dynamic might actually make this particular Brown plural marriage work a lot better for everyone.

But, I observed to her that the dynamic in this plural marriage is totally different and that they are all (to a greater or lesser degree) competitive to be the queen bee.  I can't imagine any of these four honestly airing any complaint about Kody to any of the others (outside of the very benign kidding we see in their couch-testimonials [all of which, interestingly, seem to be instigated by Christine]).  I don't think any of them would dare risk allowing one of the others to have that ammunition to use against them ("hey Kody, Meri said she thinks you're . . . . ").  I don't think they'd even trust Janelle, who seems completely uninterested in being queen bee, with that sort of information.

[ghoulina]

1 hour ago, Galloway Cave said:

I've said it before and I'll say it again- the wives treat their marriages as monogamous marriages and Kody treats them as polygamous marriages.

Such a simple way of putting it, but so spot on. They agreed to this, but in a lot of ways, they're really not cut out for it. I think Jenelle probably handles it best because she's so low maintenance and actually LIKES just chilling in her house with her kids. When she had to live with the other women it was probably harder for her. 

I do think individual relationships are important, but the women seem to compete with each other a lot, as if they're still trying to win him. I supposed a lot of that is pretty natural. But it's hard to watch. 

59 minutes ago, RedheadZombie said:

The post you responded to was credited to me, but I don't believe those are my words.  I actually think polygamy is quite difficult on the women and the men - especially if the men care at all about the happiness of their wives or children.  And while everyone seems to think these guys just want to bang multiple women, I remember Bill from Big Love having to take Viagra to please his wives.  He once asked for a night to himself a week, and the wives responded, "NO!".

I do think it can be rough on the men as well. I think Brady from MFW put a LOT more effort into his marriages and children than Kody does, and he looked completely drained at all times. On the one hand, I can't feel sorry for them - they chose this. So did the wives. But on the other hand, I don't think all of the men are out for some big power play or sexual gratification. I think that's definitely the case with the more fundie types, but not all. And some may be drawn to it for less than noble reasons, but still struggle just as much as the women. 

[RHOSingapore]

1 hour ago, ladle said:

Granted, I didn't see the episode (TV on strike and all that) but didn't "Sam" say that Meri had told "him" that Meriah was gay?  Like, well before any of this had even happened?

Sigh.  I feel like I'm missing out, but I guess it's just as well.  I only have a 2-hour window while my kid naps, anyway.  If only I had a sister wife to help me raise her (and share cankersores with me).  Stupid monogamy! 

Hi Ladle - I'm home sick and saw the 3 hours On Demand, so came here instead….I think this thread gives you the most bang for your buck!!

[toodles]

6 hours ago, Lsk02 said:

I think Meri's Instagram and other social media shows the LLR sales starting in October. She could have already been wearing the weird double layered cardigans before she bought in, so who knows. I don't remember when Mykelti got engaged, but it seems like it was after both that and Maddie's wedding. 

She was wearing a long, gray duster when I saw her at the STRIVE thing.  She looked nice in it.

[Wings]

It is a possibility that the scene with Mariah coming out, was filmed at another time much, much earlier when TLC realized the cat was out of the bag online.  They knew they had to film it, right then.  They then proceeded to fit that story line in after the wedding. Their reactions appeared to be real as did the preview.  

Or,  maybe  her coming out was already taped so she felt free to post what she chose.  She might have told TLC directly, too.  

Looking for continuity will be the proof of this theory. Hair a little different, something.  I already noticed Mariah's eye brows looked distinctly different in the two shots we saw.  

Their reactions appeared genuine.  

Edited January 3, 2017 by wings707

[Sista Snarky]

The Catfish posted a recap on the Blog.

It'll take about 3 hours to read it. ?

[RedheadZombie]

4 minutes ago, Sista Snarky said:

The Catfish posted a recap on the Blog.

It'll take about 3 hours to read it. ?

Ugh.  Why give the psychopath more attention?  Has she even admitted she's not a man yet?

[Madding crowd]

As long as people keep reading the catfish blogs and reporting them back as gospel, she will continue on. I refuse to read or believe anything she says.

[Sista Snarky]

3 minutes ago, Madding crowd said:

As long as people keep reading the catfish blogs and reporting them back as gospel, she will continue on. I refuse to read or believe anything she says.

I never saw anyone report what the  Catfish says as gospel.

It's related to the show...since Meri is still carrying on about the details of what happened. 

[Madding crowd]

A lot of things being reported that Meri said or did are directly from JO's blog or reported by one of her 'friends' or assistants. People are also stating things from the tell-all book that JO wrote. I have no problem discussing what is on the show, but I personally won't read anything written by the scammer.

[hisbunkie]

3 hours ago, zenme said:

I feel Kody should feel,  perhaps not responsibility, but some real concern with how his partner is feeling, and if he's aware that his actions or his behavior have impacted Meri, he should want to address that. 

Totally agree with this! 

The point that I'm trying to make, not very successfully,is that if you look at these four marriages individually they are not very different than many in America today, in the past and in the future.  Many people in marriages remain there because it is not that bad.  There is a lot of hypocrisy out there.  People remain in marriages because they basically like each other, they get along, they would rather be together than not and life goes on.  

[toodles]

22 hours ago, LotusFlower said:

Things are definely much better now, and easier for young ppl. to come out, but there's still a lot of homophobia in society, especially in religious circles.  Mariah not only came out to her Fundamentalist Mormon family, but one where her bed-hopping father said that the thought of one of his wives being intimate with another man was "vulgar" and "sickened" him.  To think that he's ok with his daughter having sex with a woman - even though he says he's accepting of it, no way do I believe him.  This family (or TLC) has shielded their religious views for a reason.

All the Browns need to sit down and STFU if they are not OK with Mariah's different lifestyle.  They jam their alternate lifestyle down the throat of everyone they meet.  Not to mention made money off of it.   

The kids had no choice in how they were raised.  Maybe they would have liked a monogamist upbringing.  Instead they had asshat Kody dragging all four wives to their parent-teacher meetings.  And it was on TV for all their friends and classmates to see.  They had to accept this lifestyle whether they liked it or not.  Granted, this is the life they knew.

Now it's time for them to accept Mariah's choice.  I know that being gay is not necessarily a choice, but it was the best word I could think of. Maybe someday she will find someone to love and will have a family.  But it won't be the kind of family like the other kids have.  At least so far.   The Browns are people living outside of the norm.  Mariah will find what works for her and her norm could be entirely different.  Dill with it Browns.

Edited January 4, 2017 by toodles

[Sista Snarky]

20 minutes ago, hisbunkie said:

Totally agree with this! 

The point that I'm trying to make, not very successfully,is that if you look at these four marriages individually they are not very different than many in America today, in the past and in the future.  Many people in marriages remain there because it is not that bad.  There is a lot of hypocrisy out there.  People remain in marriages because they basically like each other, they get along, they would rather be together than not and life goes on.  

I understand your point.

Many couples married for 20+ years are way beyond the "honeymoon phase" 

IMO Meri & Kody putting on the show that they were still in that phase with the "lover lover lover" & loving blank stares when they were actually struggling for 5 years (when the show started) created a bad illusion for unrealistic expectations. Meri wanted that to seriously be reality...when it wasn't.