Joy and Austin: This One Time At Family Camp

[GeeGolly]

To be diagnosed with PTSD one has to meet certain criteria (simplified): the event, at least one persistent intrusive symptom, avoidance of internal and/or external reminders, persistent negative thoughts, changes in reactivity/arousal - all lasting longer than one month.

I'm not sure we can get there with Joy by knowing of an event and a few Bible quotes. 

Edited December 5, 2021 by GeeGolly

[Westiepeach]

20 minutes ago, Lady Whistleup said:

My guess is that it hits Joy hard because she's a true believer. She has probably truly believed that as long as she believed in God and followed all the Gothard rules, her life would go swimmingly. She had checked every single box, dotted all her i's and crossed her t's. 

Just like Anna, no?

[GeeGolly]

Please forgive my frustration, but coming from a therapist's view it sometime feels like huge leaps to me. Like constipation meaning bowel obstruction, sore throat meaning rheumatic fever or a skin lesion meaning leprosy. That combined with the sensitive nature of childhood sexual abuse, kicks my clinician brain and empathy into high gear. Again, my apologies.

Lets hope for everyone's sake all the Duggars are "walking through" a stressful "season of life" and will be fine when the trial is over.

[Future Cat Lady]

22 minutes ago, Lady Whistleup said:

My guess is that it hits Joy hard because she's a true believer. She has probably truly believed that as long as she believed in God and followed all the Gothard rules, her life would go swimmingly. She had checked every single box, dotted all her i's and crossed her t's. 

If she really believes the Gothard shit, she would thank Josh for making her a better person.

I know we all want to believe that the girls realize their brother is POS, but they could really just be uspet because Josh is being persecuted by the evil government.

[Tuxcat]

It's stressful being in the public eye. It's stressful being a mother with two young children. It's stressful losing a baby at 20 weeks. It's stressful having a brother on trial who might go to prison. It's stressful having a divided family - questioning their history. I would think its stressful to have a cousin tweet every day about righteousness. Joy was just a baby. She's been processing since 2015 at the very least - hopefully longer. Right now she's probably just dealing with the totality of everything on her plate - and therefore finds herself asking God - why...why..why. I just want to live happily ever after but this crap keeps happening... I don't think anyone can pin anything down here. We honestly have no idea. 

[Churchhoney]

48 minutes ago, Lady Whistleup said:

My guess is that it hits Joy hard because she's a true believer. She has probably truly believed that as long as she believed in God and followed all the Gothard rules, her life would go swimmingly. She had checked every single box, dotted all her i's and crossed her t's. 

That's probably what Joe told her to do back when he talked her out of her alleged faith crisis of a few years ago. ....Just follow all the rules and totally do our parents' bidding and Jesus'll make everything right for you. 

If the Caldwell/JB-and-M bustup is as intense as some have indicated, I am wondering whether Joe might possibly be questioning some of his hardline, simple beliefs these days. He may be finding himself torn between two sets of super-godly parents ..... who up to now seem to have claimed to be leading worshippers of the same correct Jesus...... Makes me wonder how he thinks about that and handles it. 

[madpsych78]

I wonder if Joy was aware of the whole Josh thing for the past several years, but is now hit for the first time with her parents' role in all of this. The fact that Boob indicated in court that he could not recall details of what happened to the girls may give some of them pause. 

I can see Austin being a true believer, but I also don't think he's that naive either. It does seem like he is supportive of Joy and hopefully that will continue to be the case.

[Cinnabon]

2 hours ago, Westiepeach said:

Just like Anna, no?

She’s not bright enough to have made that connection.

[emmawoodhouse]

7 hours ago, CountryGirl said:

Agreed. Joy is learning, likely for the first time, what happened to her as a very young child. And that her parents did nothing to help her or her sisters heal. Oh no, they were sacrificial lambs for golden child SexPest. 

How Joy or her sisters or any CSA survivor choose to address what happened to them is entirely their business and they owe no one any details about that. 

It’s no wonder the majority of survivors keep silent about what happened to them. 

If she's just learning what happened to her, that would mean she never read the police report. Speaking to the girl's lawsuit, how can she claim distress if she didn't know what happened to her until Bobye Holt testified? 

eta Joy was still a minor when the lawsuit was filed. I never thought that this was an action the girls would have taken on their own (except maybe Jessa, but she brushed it all off as "NBD"). Boob, however, is very litigious. I don't think there would have been a lawsuit without Boob's meddling.

Edited December 6, 2021 by emmawoodhouse

[Nysha]

1 hour ago, emmawoodhouse said:

eta Joy was still a minor when the lawsuit was filed. I never thought that this was an action the girls would have taken on their own (except maybe Jessa, but she brushed it all off as "NBD"). Boob, however, is very litigious. I don't think there would have been a lawsuit without Boob's meddling.

Pest's actions with his sisters was allowed as evidence due in part b/c of the lawsuit. Once again, JB is ultimately responsible for causing his daughters unnecessary pain.

[emmawoodhouse]

1 minute ago, Nysha said:

Pest's actions with his sisters was allowed as evidence due in part b/c of the lawsuit. Once again, JB is ultimately responsible for causing his daughters unnecessary pain.

Yes, the same judge is presiding over the girls' lawsuit.

[Cinnabon]

2 hours ago, emmawoodhouse said:

If she's just learning what happened to her, that would mean she never read the police report. Speaking to the girl's lawsuit, how can she claim distress if she didn't know what happened to her until Bobye Holt testified? 

eta Joy was still a minor when the lawsuit was filed. I never thought that this was an action the girls would have taken on their own (except maybe Jessa, but she brushed it all off as "NBD"). Boob, however, is very litigious. I don't think there would have been a lawsuit without Boob's meddling.

Right, she had to have known what happened to her if she is claiming “distress” in the lawsuit. Otherwise she wouldn’t be one of the victims names.

[Zella]

19 minutes ago, Nysha said:

Pest's actions with his sisters was allowed as evidence due in part b/c of the lawsuit.

Do you mean allowed in evidence in the current CSAM trial? Because my understanding is that has nothing to do with the lawsuit and is admissible because federal law allows for the inclusion of prior history of sexual abuse in relation to sex crimes, even if it's never been charged, in a way that is really quite unusual legally speaking. 

Edited December 6, 2021 by Zella

[emmawoodhouse]

25 minutes ago, Zella said:

Do you mean allowed in evidence in the current CSAM trial? Because my understanding is that has nothing to do with the lawsuit and is admissible because federal law allows for the inclusion of prior history of sexual abuse in relation to sex crimes, even if it's never been charged, in a way that is really quite unusual legally speaking. 

You are correct. It has nothing to do with the lawsuit. I responded to a different angle (re the judge), but the video I posted on the Smuganna thread explains the law very clearly. 

Edited December 6, 2021 by emmawoodhouse
Forgot which thread I was posting in!

[Zella]

1 minute ago, emmawoodhouse said:

You are correct. It has nothing to do with the lawsuit. I responded to a different angle (re the judge), but the video I posted explains the law very clearly. 

Yeah I could be interpreting this incorrectly--lawyers stop me now--but my understanding is even if the molestations had not been made public before now, that evidence of what he did as a minor would still be admissible, provided someone was willing to testify about it. 

[emmawoodhouse]

I think that's correct because the judge is allowing Bobye's testimony. The presence of the police report is immaterial to what she said. I wonder if the police report will be introduced. It was part of Boob's testimony, but the judge threw it out. 

Edited December 6, 2021 by emmawoodhouse

[Minivanessa]

7 hours ago, Zella said:

Yeah I could be interpreting this incorrectly--lawyers stop me now--but my understanding is even if the molestations had not been made public before now, that evidence of what he did as a minor would still be admissible, provided someone was willing to testify about it. 

Taking this to the Smugs topic.

 

[Churchhoney]

19 hours ago, Cinnabon said:

I HATE vaguebooking. Joy, just say what you’re feeling. Preferably to people you actually know.

Unfortunately, though, I don't think poor old Joy has had any chance to learn better ways to do this.

How many times have we talked about the Duggars' huge reliance on meaningless cliches for communication and about the possibility -- which I think is a certainty -- that the siblings have very little real, specific conversation among them?.....I'm pretty sure they were mainly raised to be snitches so they don't trust each other and to talk and write entirely in those churchy-Gothardy meaningless cliches......JB and M sign birthday cards to their own kids "Mom and Dad Duggar." All your communication goes on media, not direct. 

Joy's only friend appears to be Carlin -- who comes from the same church and cult background. And even if those two have stumbled into a better mode of talking things through -- and I certainly hope they have -- Carlin lives hundreds of miles away, so she's not very available for conversation....

Unfortunately, good ways to deal with problems don't just come naturally to most people -- they have to be learned from somewhere (and there are barriers to Joy even reading in a book how to work things through -- her family doesn't believe in any books but the Bible, and I fear she can barely read...)......And I'm pretty sure everybody who surrounds her does things the same way. 

I wish somebody could swoop in and help Joy learn better ways of working things through, but I can't imagine where that knowledge would come from.....Maybe Jill, now that she seems to be talking more with people who aren't so nuts.....But it's not clear what's happened to the Jill-Joy connection, either....

This situation the Duggars are in would be horribly difficult for anybody. But this family's in a worse position than many, I think. I don't think Joy'll be able to change her unhelpful habits any time soon, unfortunately.........And now she's raising kids in the same habits, I suppose. 

 

[Churchhoney]

11 hours ago, Cinnabon said:

Right, she had to have known what happened to her if she is claiming “distress” in the lawsuit. Otherwise she wouldn’t be one of the victims names.

Except that I've never believed the girls had much if anything to do with filing that lawsuit. JB and his lawyers thought that one up. ......

There's no way in hell four young still-brainwashed Gothard women got the idea to file that lawsuit to get money. .....And Joy as the youngest and possibly the very worst educated of the four would probably have been just dragged along for the ride even if the older sisters did understand. 

Do we imagine that JB would insist that, for ethics' sake, his daughters had to understand and assent to the nature of the lawsuit before the lawyers could claim that it involved their feelings? Nah. All JB ever cared about in the suit was the money and winning and getting back at someone who let out some facts that dimmed his reputation. 

If we didn't know that before, I think we saw it pretty clearly in his willingness to say in court that he doesn't even remember what he heard about the girls' molestation. (which seem to have gone on for about three years...!!!) That's JB -- lawsuit originator -- making clear that he never cared about their distress -- let alone about how and what they understood about the claimed distress. 

Edited December 6, 2021 by Churchhoney

[CountryGirl]

11 hours ago, emmawoodhouse said:

If she's just learning what happened to her, that would mean she never read the police report. Speaking to the girl's lawsuit, how can she claim distress if she didn't know what happened to her until Bobye Holt testified? 

eta Joy was still a minor when the lawsuit was filed. I never thought that this was an action the girls would have taken on their own (except maybe Jessa, but she brushed it all off as "NBD"). Boob, however, is very litigious. I don't think there would have been a lawsuit without Boob's meddling.

What I meant by just learning what happened was that she's hearing the unfiltered, non-Jim Boob, non-sanitized explanation of what happened to her and her sisters for possibly the first time (no way to know for certain). The same explanation that Jess and Jill parroted on Fox News. 

[CountryGirl]

17 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

Except that I've never believed the girls had much if anything to do with filing that lawsuit. JB and his lawyers thought that one up. ......

There's no way in hell four young still-brainwashed Gothard women got the idea to file that lawsuit to get money. .....And Joy as the youngest and possibly the very worst educated of the four would probably have been just dragged along for the ride even if the older girls did understand. 

Do we imagine that JB would insist that, for ethics' sake, the girls had to understand the nature of the lawsuit before the lawyers could claim that it involved the girls' feelings? All JB ever cared about in the suit was the money and winning and getting back at someone who let out some facts that dim his reputation. 

If we didn't know that before, I think we saw it pretty clearly in his willingness to say in court that he doesn't even remember what he heard about the girls' molestation. That's JB -- lawsuit originator -- making clear that he never cared about their distress -- let alone about how and what they understood about the claimed distress. 

I agree with you that this this lawsuit has Jim-Boob all over it from its very inception. That his daughters are going along with it is not at all surprising as that's pretty much their entire lives in a nutshell - following Daddy's rules. 

[Westiepeach]

Maybe it's Monday and I haven't had enough coffee yet... but what is the deal with this upcoming lawsuit from "the girls"? Please explain it to me like I am stupid (or refresh my memory).

[GeeGolly]

10 minutes ago, Westiepeach said:

Maybe it's Monday and I haven't had enough coffee yet... but what is the deal with this upcoming lawsuit from "the girls"? Please explain it to me like I am stupid (or refresh my memory).

The girls are suing multiple entities, that at one point included InTouch and various employees and departments of the sheriff's office, for releasing, poorly redacting and publishing the police report, thus making their story public.

Not sure who remains in the case at this point.

[ginger90]

20 minutes ago, Westiepeach said:

Maybe it's Monday and I haven't had enough coffee yet... but what is the deal with this upcoming lawsuit from "the girls"? Please explain it to me like I am stupid (or refresh my memory).

I sent you an link to an article.

[Westiepeach]

21 minutes ago, ginger90 said:

I sent you an link to an article.

Thank you! I remember it all now!

[wait.what]

Ok, hear me out…..

I think the sisters are so cult brain washed that they feel guilty that their abuse is being used to bolster the persecution of their brother.

maybe they ALL ARE supporting Josh and think he is being framed by the satanic forces of the World. 
 

I think she is saying that josh is suffering like Job suffered. 

even IF he is found guilty, he will be compared to Job and praised for his “enduring faith and loyalty to God.”

I don’t believe any of them will ever believe or at least admit to believing that Josh is guilty of anything  

 

This cult is so damaging. And f’ed up. 

[CountryGirl]

@wait.what, I can see that.

It might be easier for them to wrap their head around that line of thinking.

Particularly when the alternative is to realize this:

That after the first incident of abuse, nothing was done by their parents to stop it until THREE YEARS LATER (and I would argue that JB and M's actions and lack thereof qualify them as abusive as they created an environment for it to happen and, more significantly, did nothing to prevent it from reoccurring)

That what happened to them was whitewashed and rug-swept

That a "confession" and "apology" by their abuser (and not even to them) was enough for the adults in the situation to brush their hands and say, "well, that's that"

That since then, their abuser's life has been allowed to go back to normal and they are expected to "keep sweet"

That even when the truth surfaced, they show support for their abuser and, following their parents' terrible example, minimize and excuse what happened

That when the AM scandal broke, showing a pattern of sexual deviance and depravity, they were put in the position of once again, defending these actions and worse, were placed once again in close proximity to their abuser

It really isn't that surprising that they continue to support Josh and that even Jill is conflicted when being the background to their eldest brother's foreground is all they've ever known. 

 

[emmawoodhouse]

Joy posted a brief statement in her IG stories. Can someone c/p for the masses? 

They say they agree with the verdict, and that they are praying for Anna and HER children. Burn. 

[Absolom]

 

[emmawoodhouse]

Thanks @Absolom! Whenever I do a screenshot, it's too large to post. 

[auntieminem]

It is good that Joy (and Austin) saw and accepted the truth. I hope this helps Joy free herself from her parents lies and control.  

[truebluesmoky]

I never thought I would be thankful for Austin and Derrick, but those two have turned out to be the real, decent men in this whole mess of people and seem to really have their wives’ well-being as their top priority.

[Zella]

I think I liked this statement the most. (Not that it's a contest.) But I found the simple directness of it refreshing. If Austin and Joy went to court with truly open minds that were willing to accept Josh could be innocent, I'm sure the evidence that was presented was a very rude awakening. 

[Cinnabon]

41 minutes ago, auntieminem said:

It is good that Joy (and Austin) saw and accepted the truth. I hope this helps Joy free herself from her parents lies and control.  

I just hope she sees JB and M’s part in it all. 

[emmawoodhouse]

9 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

I just hope she sees JB and M’s part in it all. 

As I noted in another thread, I am hoping that Joy's eyes are beginning to open. It's rumored that Austin and Anna went at it, and that's why the Forsyths spent Thanksgiving in Texas.

[Cinnabon]

2 minutes ago, emmawoodhouse said:

As I noted in another thread, I am hoping that Joy's eyes are beginning to open. It's rumored that Austin and Anna went at it, and that's why the Forsyths spent Thanksgiving in Texas.

Interesting! I wonder if Jeremy regrets having allowed Josh to be a guest in his home last year?

[emmawoodhouse]

Did Jeremy have a choice? 

[Zella]

So, what's the Austin/Anna rumor? This is news to me. 👀

Edited December 13, 2021 by Zella

[emmawoodhouse]

2 minutes ago, Zella said:

So, what's the Austin/Anna rumor? This is news to me. 👀

That's all I know. I have no clue why Austin would ever interact with Anna, but I suppose anything is possible. 

[SMama]

11 minutes ago, emmawoodhouse said:

As I noted in another thread, I am hoping that Joy's eyes are beginning to open. It's rumored that Austin and Anna went at it, and that's why the Forsyths spent Thanksgiving in Texas.

What did I miss regarding Austin and Anna? 

[Zella]

Yeah a lot of these rumors make it sound like Fundie Fight Club has been going down--that's a reality TV show I'd pitch to TLC, actually--but I'm thinking it's more likely things have just been tense and awkward more than an actual fight/confrontation. But who knows. I could see the relatives who accepted Josh's guilt finding Anna likely insisting on his absolute innocence pretty exasperating and it escalating from there. 

[emmawoodhouse]

Yeah, I imagine that the only people who still believe in Smuggar's innocence are his parents and his wife. And maybe Hilaria. 😁

[Zella]

1 minute ago, emmawoodhouse said:

And maybe Hilaria. 😁

I fear this may cause problems between her and Jason, based on his Instagramming lately. 

[SMama]

19 minutes ago, emmawoodhouse said:

Did Jeremy have a choice? 

Why wouldn’t he? It’s his grifted rental house, perhaps I’m missing something, again. 

[Cinnabon]

47 minutes ago, emmawoodhouse said:

Did Jeremy have a choice? 

I assume he could have refused to host his wife’s abuser.

[CalicoKitty]

It would not surprise me if JB just announces he is coming for a visit and tells everyone involved when he will show up.  After all, he told the judge that he would not accept some pieces of evidence.  I really think that he thinks that he rules everyone and everything around him.  And showing up at Jeremy's is a family matter, and he is the umbrella, after all.

[GeeGolly]

Did Josh and Anna visit the LA last year? Or was it before the pandemic?

Somehow the Forsyth statement seems more powerful and vulnerable to me. Maybe because Joy and Austin don't play to the media as much and didn't put out a statement after the arrest. Just a very honest statement that they didn't insert themselves or anything else into.

No matter who you are, having a family member who wanted to watch CSA, must be very hard.

[emmawoodhouse]

26 minutes ago, CalicoKitty said:

It would not surprise me if JB just announces he is coming for a visit and tells everyone involved when he will show up.  After all, he told the judge that he would not accept some pieces of evidence.  I really think that he thinks that he rules everyone and everything around him.  And showing up at Jeremy's is a family matter, and he is the umbrella, after all.

This is why I don't think Jeremy had a choice in the matter. Thankfully, they had their motorhome, so hopefully Smuggar didn't grease up Jeremy's sweet leather furniture too badly.

[Zella]

Responding to the Jeremy stuff in the Vuolo thread. 

[sagittarius sue]

8 hours ago, Zella said:

Yeah a lot of these rumors make it sound like Fundie Fight Club has been going down--that's a reality TV show I'd pitch to TLC,

We'd all be there for that!  That might be the reality show of my dreams!