S03.E07: Killer Frost

[ruby24]

I don't like the episodes where the team is depressed and gloomy. I miss the light, Supergirl-esque tone of the first season. I dislike angst on this show. Cisco is like a different person this season.

[ottoDbusdriver]

I'll have to re-watch, but what was the peptalk count this episode ?

[maxineofarc]

31 minutes ago, ruby24 said:

I don't like the episodes where the team is depressed and gloomy. I miss the light, Supergirl-esque tone of the first season. I dislike angst on this show. Cisco is like a different person this season.

He IS a different person, because this Cisco has only ever existed in the "corrected" universe. For all we know he's had entirely different experiences we never got to see and haven't heard anything about. That's why this season is making me crazy; I was a confirmed Cisco fangirl for two seasons and now I have no idea if I'm still supposed to be invested in him or not.

35 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

And I love how moralistic Julian is -- Oh you are not an honest man aren't deserving of being a CSI and a member of the police force so quit.  And then he goes and pulls out his Death Eater uniform.  Projection much?

I don't know, man, I really think there's something more going on here. Julian seemed VERY sincere when he chewed Barry out, and his rigid sense of morality has been a constant for him all season. He seemed more than a little upset to be hearing Savitar calling to him as Alchemy calls to nascent metas, even though Alchemy knelt to Savitar last episode. He might be projecting but I don't think he knows what he's doing.

[mrspidey]

14 hours ago, phoenics said:

So - Caitlin isn't responsible for her actions because "it was the powers"?  That's BS.  It literally flies in the face of the entire show and what the show laid out early on.  The powers are supposed to bring out what's already there.

Pretty sure they aren't. You're getting Metahumans mixed up with Inhumans. Most of the Metas got their powers via random contact with their surroundings during the particle accelerator explosion. I don't think there's any kind of plan at work here. 

As for the episode: I'm confused. Where we supposed to be surprised by the reveal that Julian is Alchemy??

Edited November 23, 2016 by mrspidey

[Lady Calypso]

As much as I did like Barry actually earning consequences for Flashpoint, there is one thing that bugs me about the whole thing and has me defending Barry to an extent. They know that he changed the timeline. Back in 3x02, he told them that things were different. And then he drew the timeline and showed them that this timeline was completely different from his original timeline. They should have known that things would be different. But that's not the main issue, since I can buy that their anger clouded this part. My main issue is that Barry ASKED them if they wanted to know. His specific line was: "I will tell you what's different. All of you, if you want to know. But you have to live with those differences because I can't go back and change it again, but at least you'll know. And you deserve that choice". Nobody took him up on it. Cisco was upset because he blames Barry for his brother's death. But everyone else had the chance to ask him what was different. 

So basically the blame game? Yes, it's on Barry for changing things. He's ultimately to blame for this whole mess being created. But Wally, Caitlin, and Cisco blaming Barry for not telling them about the changed future? Yeah, that's on them for not asking. Barry would have told them because it was their choice. That part is NOT on Barry. 

[bettername2come]

One thing I forgot to say in my first post: GREG GRUNBERG! Can he be Joe's new partner? He makes a good detective, they're all acting like he's been there the whole time anyway, and I don't think Joe has to worry about his kids dating him. He should stay.

[blugirlami21]

10 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

He told them he changed things but he didn't tell Cisco that his brother was alive in the previous timeline and Barry told Caitlin that her suddenly having powers was because of his changing the timeline.

Umm.....

I don't know what it is but I don't care about Sara being turned into a boy.  I just don't and I genuinely like Diggle.  And what I gleaned from what Iris said is that we don't know that these things wouldn't have happened anyway in regards to Cisco and Caitlin's issues.

That's all I've been trying to say Lady Calypso.  DearEvette said it pretty concisely as well.  I'm over the blame game.  Yes, Barry did an awful thing and the result is a world with consequences not just for him.  And I completely understand being upset about the changes and/or Barry pretty much making world changing decisions for his own personal gain.  But he laid it all out for everyone early on and he asked them if they wanted to know what was different.  They demurred and now they want to be mad and upset about those changes they didn't want to know about a couple of weeks ago.  The changes are permanent.  Cisco and Caitlin crying about them week after week lately does them nor Barry any favors.  He can't do anything other than apologize at this point.  

I really wish that they hadn't done this storyline tbh.  It does no one any favors and we have yet to see the characters or the show gain anything useful from it that I can see.

[Aeryn13]

I didn`t think the pacing worked well here because once again everything just went on too quickly for my taste. Caitlin uses her powers, next scene Caitlin looks conflicted, next scene Caitlin is evil. Way too quickly. And it is already resolved by the end of the episode. Granted, the issue might only be shelved but why not give the whole storyline some room to breathe? I`m no friend of shows trying to wring wangst from every little thing but this stuff with Caitlin could have yielded some legitimately juicy stuff for a few eps. Instead, everything is back to kinda status quo in time for x-over week. Which is an issue of pre-planning really.

Not that there weren`t some good scenes here but it could have been so much more. I liked that Caitlin got to call out Barry on some of the things that he freaking needed to be called out on. Barry is a very likeable dude and he certainly means well but what he did in the Season 2 Finale was monumental and so far he has pretty much skated in terms of any real consequences.

In that regard I`m happy that things with Cisco weren`t also hunky dory here at the end. I WANT them to make up again but it has to be earned, not lightning-switched. IMO Barry subconsciously has begun to apply speed to everything in his life, including his emotional process. When he came to Cisco at the end, it sounded like he wanted to make sure things were okay between them. Well, it has only been what, hours? With what Cisco learned here, you have to allow for a period of hurt and anger before any "okay" can enter the equation. Usually for humans that means weeks, if not months. Slow down, Barry.

On the one hand I liked Iris being supportive but on the other it veered somewhat into enabling again. Yes, Barry can`t run his mind in circles of "if only I hadn`t", what`s done is done and that serves noone but he should legitimately mulling over some guilt and regret. "Hey, maybe Caitlin would have gotten powers and Dante would have died anyway" is such a neat way of thinking that allows the mind to absolve yourself of responsibility.

Equally, showing support there in the end when he told them he was made to quit is one thing. But it did not need to devolve into another "all hail the bestest hero ever" thing either.

Julian being Alchemy was so obvious, I was almost sure it couldn`t be. Sigh. And even though it was the "villain blackmails hero" scene, again, I couldn`t disagree with what Julian said. I completely understand why someone has one rule for loved ones and one for all the rest but then you got to accept being called out for it, too.  

Meanwhile Savitar is super-uber-powered. Maybe they should rework the opening narration into "my name is Barry Allen and I`m pretty sure I`m like the 8th-fastest person alive".   

HR worked much better here, more subdued. 

Quote

They demurred and now they want to be mad and upset about those changes they didn't want to know about a couple of weeks ago.  The changes are permanent.  Cisco and Caitlin crying about them week after week lately does them nor Barry any favors.  He can't do anything other than apologize at this point.  

This was the first episode they brought it up. And to be honest, I expected more of an acknowledgment from Barry. I`ve seen him look more guilty and offer more heartfelt apologies for much lesser things. Grant Gustin usually excels at these things so either it was script or direction. 

Edited November 23, 2016 by Aeryn13

[blugirlami21]

Wally brought it up last week.  Any complaints about not knowing about the other timeline get lumped together for me.  Caitlin also brought it up and her and Barry had a moment.  I just don't want to keep going over it week after week.  Ymmv.

[Aeryn13]

Caitlin and Barry talked about it last week once everyone learned that Caitlin had powers. At that point, IMO it was warranted that he tell her the truth about the other timeline, even unasked. Equally, Cisco only learned about Dante being alive in this episode. And up until this episode noone really called Barry to task for Flashpoint in general. So to me it really feel fresh right now. And it was sorely needed at this point. If this goes on for ten episodes and Barry just tiredly says "I`m sorry" each time, then I`d agree it was played out.  

What I find really weird is how different Arrow and Flash handle this stuff. When Oliver messes up, at least three people each episode give him a piece of their mind for at least 6-7 episodes in a row. It gets to that "oh, come on" point so quickly, that I`m more on his side since the calling out seems to excessive. With Barry, they go too far in the opposite direction for me. I can`t feel too sympathetic because compared to what he did, I just don`t see and feel the emotional consequences and the acknowledgment of such. A happy medium between both extremes would be what I want to see.      

Edited November 23, 2016 by Aeryn13

[johntfs]

1 hour ago, maxineofarc said:

He IS a different person, because this Cisco has only ever existed in the "corrected" universe. For all we know he's had entirely different experiences we never got to see and haven't heard anything about. That's why this season is making me crazy; I was a confirmed Cisco fangirl for two seasons and now I have no idea if I'm still supposed to be invested in him or not.

I don't know, man, I really think there's something more going on here. Julian seemed VERY sincere when he chewed Barry out, and his rigid sense of morality has been a constant for him all season. He seemed more than a little upset to be hearing Savitar calling to him as Alchemy calls to nascent metas, even though Alchemy knelt to Savitar last episode. He might be projecting but I don't think he knows what he's doing.

I'll note that Savitar wanted him to become Alchemy, which indicates that he used to have the function but quit (perhaps because every time he gave powers to someone they became villainous assholes).

Meanwhile we again note that having superpowers and a vagina is contraindicated.  The male power fantasy of having superpowers can only be handled by someone with a penis.  No girls allowed (unless they're like superhot sex objects, then maybe...)

[cambridgeguy]

Quote

It does no one any favors and we have yet to see the characters or the show gain anything useful from it that I can see.

They had to show that traveling back in time to fix history is a not a viable option.  It worked out great when Barry stopped the Weather Wizard and Vandal Savage.  All of the trouble from the end of season 1 came from how Barry made the trip, not his actions in the past, so he was 2 for 2 in terms of changing history at the end of season 2.  The truth is there's still no compelling reason why Barry can't travel back in time for short periods (a couple of days) to fix a problem unless there's a massive ripple effect for any trip.

Quote

Meanwhile we again note that having superpowers and a vagina is contraindicated.  The male power fantasy of having superpowers can only be handled by someone with a penis.  No girls allowed (unless they're like superhot sex objects, then maybe...)

As opposed to the guys, who just happen to be attractive men?  They need to limit the powers of team Flash in general, otherwise they're pretty much unstoppable.  Plus the vast majority of metahumans are evil regardless of gender.

[GHScorpiosRule]

This is going to be vastly unpopular but...

Caitlin or Killer Frost (since it was the latter saying the words) just needs to shut up about how it's Barry's fault that Ronnie is dead; or that he "died" the first time. Ronnie made the choice to sacrifice himself the first time when the Particle Accelerator exploded.  That is all on Eobard as Wells. Barry didn't ask or make Ronnie jump into that black hole at the end of the first season, either. Eddie made the choice to kill himself to stop Thawne.

Dante being dead is Barry's fault-since that was a result of Flashpoint. I suppose since Cisco loved Dante, that can account for his grief, Dante treated Cisco like shit, and he was an asshole, so pardon me for not giving any fucks that he's not around.

And since I don't watch Arrow, I don't care about Baby Sara.

And who's to say Dante and Baby Sara aren't because of Legends of Tomorrow? I know, I know, it's a stretch. But I'm tired of this blaming Barry when they said they didn't want to know.

What I have to say about Wally I'll post in the previous episode since he was a nonentity here, except I hate that he's faster than Barry.

I'll just sit here at my table for one as Barry's lone fan.

[srpturtle80]

1 hour ago, bettername2come said:

One thing I forgot to say in my first post: GREG GRUNBERG! Can he be Joe's new partner? He makes a good detective, they're all acting like he's been there the whole time anyway, and I don't think Joe has to worry about his kids dating him. He should stay.

I agree! I got so excited when I saw him! I hope he sticks around.

[ruby24]

I like Barry but mostly when he's overeager and dorky and funny. I don't particularly like the gloomy, mopey version. At all, really.

[KirkB]

21 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

This is going to be vastly unpopular but...

Caitlin or Killer Frost (since it was the latter saying the words) just needs to shut up about how it's Barry's fault that Ronnie is dead; or that he "died" the first time. Ronnie made the choice to sacrifice himself the first time when the Particle Accelerator exploded.  That is all on Eobard as Wells. Barry didn't ask or make Ronnie jump into that black hole at the end of the first season, either. Eddie made the choice to kill himself to stop Thawne.

Dante being dead is Barry's fault-since that was a result of Flashpoint. I suppose since Cisco loved Dante, that can account for his grief, Dante treated Cisco like shit, and he was an asshole, so pardon me for not giving any fucks that he's not around.

And since I don't watch Arrow, I don't care about Baby Sara.

And who's to say Dante and Baby Sara aren't because of Legends of Tomorrow? I know, I know, it's a stretch. But I'm tired of this blaming Barry when they said they didn't want to know.

What I have to say about Wally I'll post in the previous episode since he was a nonentity here, except I hate that he's faster than Barry.

I'll just sit here at my table for one as Barry's lone fan.

You're not at that table alone, because I mostly agree with you.

The majority of bad things that happened in the first season, yes, are on Thawne. And yes, Eddie chose to sacrifice himself, as did Ronnie. Though technically Ronnie died in the black hole because Barry caused it to happen in the first place.

I'm not particularly bothered by Dante being dead either. I feel for Cisco, but it's not as if Barry went back in time and got behind the wheel of the car that ran over Dante.

I do watch Arrow and Baby Sara bothers me not so much because I care about the character as I don't understand why they did it. It only seems designed to piss viewers off. No one in the show except Barry and Felicity know the difference.

If I understand what Caitlin said, Wally isn't faster than Barry, he's just faster than Barry was when he started out. And you could chalk that up to him getting a more concentrated dose of particle accelerator juice, or perhaps the fact there was some essence of Barry in the mix.

Edited November 23, 2016 by KirkB

[kitmerlot1213]

I think a lot of Cisco's drama regarding Dante's death stems from the brothers unresolved personal family angst and that is not on Barry.   Perhaps once Cisco has processed his guilt along side his grief, he and Barry can repair their friendship.

I think DP's portrayal of Caitlin's fear and worry over becoming Killer Frost was well done.  Caitlin has always been rather closed off and I'm sure she's deeply concerned about her tendency towards coldness.

[futurechemist]

Well I suppose we should be happy that Julian hating metas because he's a self-hating, closeted meta wasn't quite as cliched as Julian hating metas because a meta killed his parents.

Barry : Caitlin :: Xander : Dark Willow.  I think the show owes Joss Whedon a royalty check.

Did Flashpoint replace Captain Singh with Detective Greg Grunberg? (I forget the character's name)

[TobinAlbers]

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Julian being Alchemy was so obvious, I was almost sure it couldn`t be. Sigh. And even though it was the "villain blackmails hero" scene, again, I couldn`t disagree with what Julian said. I completely understand why someone has one rule for loved ones and one for all the rest but then you got to accept being called out for it, too.  

I'm holding out there is a twist with Julian being Alchemy because having it be him was just so annoyingly lazy I wanted to throw something at the tv. And I overlook a lot of stuff in my TV usually.

And you know what? I didn't hate Julian cashing in on the 'favor' that Barry promised him just 20 seconds earlier because Barry just said he'd do anything to protect Caitlin. You can't say you'll do anything and then be shocked when they ask you to do something and pissed about the request they asked for. Did Barry really think it'd just be covering a shift for Julian or doing some extra scut work around the lab? The reveal of Julian being Alchemy aside, Caitlin kidnapped, assaulted, and threatened to kill Julian. Julian is right to be pissed and leery of anyone who would protect her when it was obvious she had lost control of herself.

And Team Flash what happens the next time she gets pissed and goes rogue? It was convenient that three of the people Caitlin physically hurt were Alchemy and Alchemy acolytes so we're not supposed to feel like they deserve any consideration (Same thing when Flash punched Julian so hard he was out for an entire day which Barry shrugged off as 'oops'. Really, Mr. Hero?) and the other two people she assaulted were her friends who knew her before she broke bad for a moment and inclined to forgive her but Caitlin pulled some criminal crap that should not be overlooked just because we knew her when and she's going through a 'tough time'.  Or at the very least Julian (pre Alchemy reveal) should not have been expected to have warm fuzzies towards her nor Barry for asking for Julian's help in protecting her -especially given Julian's feelings about metas which Barry knew. Nor should Barry have been surprised that Julian would not want to work with him anymore and would use the situation to his advantage to force Barry out.

We all know Julian will be humbled in the end and need Barry's help which he will give because at the end of the day he IS awesome and that Julian will leave CCPD in the end, but for now I ain't mad at Barry's professional setback. 

As far as finding specialists to help with taking away powers Caitlin's mother and Tina McGee among a number of other DC scientists could/should be working on this, you'd think. 

[legaleagle53]

8 minutes ago, TobinAlbers said:

And you know what? I didn't hate Julian cashing in on the 'favor' that Barry promised him just 20 seconds earlier because Barry just said he'd do anything to protect Caitlin. You can't say you'll do anything and then be shocked when they ask you to do something and pissed about the request they asked for. Did Barry really think it'd just be covering a shift for Julian or doing some extra scut work around the lab? The reveal of Julian being Alchemy aside, Caitlin kidnapped, assaulted, and threatened to kill Julian. Julian is right to be pissed and leery of anyone who would protect her when it was obvious she had lost control of herself.

And Team Flash what happens the next time she gets pissed and goes rogue? It was convenient that three of the people Caitlin physically hurt were Alchemy and Alchemy acolytes so we're not supposed to feel like they deserve any consideration (Same thing when Flash punched Julian so hard he was out for an entire day which Barry shrugged off as 'oops'. Really, Mr. Hero?) and the other two people she assaulted were her friends who knew her before she broke bad for a moment and inclined to forgive her but Caitlin pulled some criminal crap that should not be overlooked just because we knew her when and she's going through a 'tough time'.  Or at the very least Julian (pre Alchemy reveal) should not have been expected to have warm fuzzies towards her nor Barry for asking for Julian's help in protecting her -especially given Julian's feelings about metas which Barry knew. Nor should Barry have been surprised that Julian would not want to work with him anymore and would use the situation to his advantage to force Barry out.

We all know Julian will be humbled in the end and need Barry's help which he will give because at the end of the day he IS awesome and that Julian will leave CCPD in the end, but for now I ain't mad at Barry's professional setback. 

Points taken.  It's also not that hard to believe given the fact that Julian and Barry hated each other from the get-go and that each wanted the other gone from the CCPD yesterday.   Yes, I know we're supposed to hate Julian for hating Barry when everyone else in Barry's orbit just loves him, but I agree with you that Julian had a point and that it's probably for the best that Barry was forced to resign in order to protect Caitlin.

And Cisco is going to need a LOT of time and space away from Barry in order to process the grief and pain that just started afresh after Caitlin's revelation before Cisco will realistically ever be able to forgive Barry.  Even then, as Caitlin and Jay both told Barry, some things, once broken, can never be completely fixed "like new."

[GHScorpiosRule]

3 hours ago, futurechemist said:

 

Did Flashpoint replace Captain Singh with Detective Greg Grunberg? (I forget the character's name)

No. We saw Singh put in the position of Principal when Julian reported Barry's tardiness and disappearances in the second episode.

I had no problem with Barry punching Julian. I also didn't see Barry trying to change Julian's mind about quitting in exchange for his silence. He accepted it. 

So I suppose Central City only has one police  department, eh?

I did laugh at Julian telling Barry that he didn't deserve to be a CSI, as if being one is more important, more prestigious than say, being a cop, or fireman. CSIs are techs, despite what the CSI franchise tried to tell me.????

Edited November 24, 2016 by GHScorpiosRule

[Aeryn13]

Quote

You can't say you'll do anything and then be shocked when they ask you to do something and pissed about the request they asked for. Did Barry really think it'd just be covering a shift for Julian or doing some extra scut work around the lab?

I think so, yes. And I can`t even blame him because until this episode there hasn`t really been much fall-out from the people of his inner circle. I`ll exclude the black hole opening in the Season 1 Finale because they all knew it could happen and they all still agreed to the fuckery. But Flashpoint, that was something Barry did on his own and the reactions till now have been unrealistically hunky-dory. So these are probably reactions he does expect. 

Barry is really inately likeable and people thus respond well to him but to expect someone to cover for their assailant in such a scenario as it happened here would be a tall order. Even if you got along well with them. They framed Julian`s request as horrible and mean via Iris and Joe. Later they cemented that with the Alchemy reveal. But if Julian were really just who he said he was, what he basically said was "I can`t work with someone like you". And he shouldn`t be the one to have to leave. So from a good guy, it might have come across as somewhat harsh but IMO not cruel and not even unreasonable. People who promise to do everything in shows usually get asked for much, much worse. 

[TobinAlbers]

36 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

 

Barry is really inately likeable and people thus respond well to him but to expect someone to cover for their assailant in such a scenario as it happened here would be a tall order. Even if you got along well with them. They framed Julian`s request as horrible and mean via Iris and Joe. Later they cemented that with the Alchemy reveal. But if Julian were really just who he said he was, what he basically said was "I can`t work with someone like you". And he shouldn`t be the one to have to leave. So from a good guy, it might have come across as somewhat harsh but IMO not cruel and not even unreasonable. 

ITA. And another thing is that from Julian's POV Barry was asking Julian to cover what Caitlin did on Barry's word that it was taken care of and wouldn't happen again when a) Julian thinks Barry word is crap most days and b) as far as Julian knows Barry isn't a meta and has zero means to stop Caitlin if she's inclined to use her meta powers to threaten someone else.  

I adore Barry. 99.9% of the time I can forgive him almost everything but this was an example I hate in fiction of the hero just expecting everyone else to go along with him because he usually does get his way in these things. Even with his asking Cisco ' We're gonna be cool, right?' That was pushing for reconciliation so he'd feel better when he should've been giving him some space to process things. I want Cisco and Barry to work things out and think they will as Cisco is smart enough and big hearted enough to realize that Barry's actions held no malice and came from a place of hurt and frustration and he's remorseful for the entire thing. They're friends and family and you can and do forgive each other for mistakes and try to do better by them in the future.

In the case of Julian, he owes Barry no such consideration because they have a contentious professional relationship and was just attacked by someone who is part of a group of people he fears and hates. Barry was treating him like he was a friendly acquaintance who would roll with it, but Julian let him know that an outsider looking at this situation isn't amused by what appears to be Barry's vague promises and flippancy. 

Iris and Joe I expect to be Barry's cheerleaders but yeah, her overreaction grated because it was meant to push that Julian was being a complete bastard when he wasn't really. Not totally. 

[Trini]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

But Flashpoint, that was something Barry did on his own and the reactions till now have been unrealistically hunky-dory.

[Not specifically responding to Aeryn13] The thing with Flashpoint is, only Barry (and Savitar, Alchemy, the Wells') know that there are any changes. Everyone else* (who didn't get transformed by Alchemy) in this new timeline have been living their lives -- they can't miss what they never experienced. Yes, Barry's time traveling caused changes and a new timeline; but it seems a little odd to me that the people within this timeline would directly blame Barry for certain things, especially when they know nothing can be done about it now. While Dante is dead, and Caitlin has powers here, there's also the timelines where Cisco is dead, and Hartley Rathaway is an enemy. So not every change is detrimental, there are just different circumstances.

But then the writers seem to be ignoring that unless it's part of the threat-of-the-week, which is another issue. ::siiiiighhh::

 

*(Although, Cisco should be able to 'vibe' alternate timelines)

[phoenics]

10 hours ago, mrspidey said:

Pretty sure they aren't. You're getting Metahumans mixed up with Inhumans. Most of the Metas got their powers via random contact with their surroundings during the particle accelerator explosion. I don't think there's any kind of plan at work here. 

As for the episode: I'm confused. Where we supposed to be surprised by the reveal that Julian is Alchemy??

I'm not confused.  I'm basing this off of Barry's dialogue with Tony in Season 1 where he says that the powers just make people more of who they already are.  Tony turned bad as a meta because he was already bad.  Barry was good because he was already good.  Thus, with that established canon, there is no real reason why Caitlin would have turned bad just for getting powers.  They should have made her just hungry for heat instead - a heat vampire.  That would have been better and we would have had good Caitlin struggling against the damage her powers were doing to innocent people - because she couldn't help herself.

[phoenics]

8 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

This is going to be vastly unpopular but...

Caitlin or Killer Frost (since it was the latter saying the words) just needs to shut up about how it's Barry's fault that Ronnie is dead; or that he "died" the first time. Ronnie made the choice to sacrifice himself the first time when the Particle Accelerator exploded.  That is all on Eobard as Wells. Barry didn't ask or make Ronnie jump into that black hole at the end of the first season, either. Eddie made the choice to kill himself to stop Thawne.

Dante being dead is Barry's fault-since that was a result of Flashpoint. I suppose since Cisco loved Dante, that can account for his grief, Dante treated Cisco like shit, and he was an asshole, so pardon me for not giving any fucks that he's not around.

And since I don't watch Arrow, I don't care about Baby Sara.

And who's to say Dante and Baby Sara aren't because of Legends of Tomorrow? I know, I know, it's a stretch. But I'm tired of this blaming Barry when they said they didn't want to know.

What I have to say about Wally I'll post in the previous episode since he was a nonentity here, except I hate that he's faster than Barry.

I'll just sit here at my table for one as Barry's lone fan.

I'm sitting with you.  I'm usually very critical of Barry, but Caitlin went too damn far and blamed Barry for mess that wasn't even on him.  She also came at him as though he hasn't lost anything when he's lost both of his parents - both because of crazy speedsters - one who tried to kill him when he was a boy.  

And I'm firmly in the camp with those who think Cait's "be evil with no consequences to herself" card is bull.  Oh and she was extremely hurtful.  Iris was right to build Barry up - it wasn't enabling because he was literally about to fall apart.  Bashing him or chastising him in that moment would have been counterproductive and useless.  Iris helped him get his head back on straight so he could lead again.  Cait tears him down (she's done that since S1 btw), while Iris always builds him up.  And let's not forget that it was Iris who called him out in Paradox because she suspected something was up.  Gah - it's like Iris gets heat when she questions Barry and when she supports him.

Edited November 24, 2016 by phoenics

[BkWurm1]

21 hours ago, rtms77 said:

I honestly think that Caitlin's change could be physical or mental. I see her change as a allegory about mental illness. It warps you and changes you. You need counseling and drugs to control it, hence the cuffs at the end she was wearing to control her power taking over. Maybe this was the final breakdown/meltdown that pushed her over the edge. She comes from a high achieving family, she worked hard to be successful at an early age and got chosen by a brilliant scientist to work at a prestigious lab. Suddenly it all collapse on her, she loses her finance/husband twice, watches him turn into something she can't control, watches him sacrifice himself and die, gets manipulated by a crazed killer who kidnaps her, abuses her, meets her evil doppelganger and watches her get killed and then she gets powers out of nowhere thanks to Barry's time meddling. That is enough to send anyone over the edge.

She obviously was fighting the effects on her the whole time until Barry called her out and the normal Caitlin came back. How long she stays is up to her. Not to mention that in the real world I think it's been documented that tumors etc can have an effect on a persons personality etc. So there are  a couple of ways that she could be going bad or good or just in the middle. We don't know how this Caitlin Snow body reacted to the explosion or why she did when the normal time line seemed to leave her alone?  Maybe like Jesse and Wally she was caught in the energy wave instead of being protected? Who knows since the show insists on leaving the actual story off stage and let the gaping holes be filled with "Flashpoint" every time something comes up.

The thing is, the show could have used all the crappy stuff in Caitlin's life and then showed that getting powers was one too many things but that's not what it's done.  It's said that using her powers makes her cold hearted which makes no sense compared to how every other person has reacted to getting powers.  The powers don't make them evil, they just give them more power to do stuff and a lot of time that leads them to think they are above the law, but it's always in the past depended on the person.  

 

4 minutes ago, phoenics said:

I'm not confused.  I'm basing this off of Barry's dialogue with Tony in Season 1 where he says that the powers just make people more of who they already are.  Tony turned bad as a meta because he was already bad.  Barry was good because he was already good.  Thus, with that established canon, there is no real reason why Caitlin would have turned bad just for getting powers.  They should have made her just hungry for heat instead - a heat vampire.  That would have been better and we would have had good Caitlin struggling against the damage her powers were doing to innocent people - because she couldn't help herself.

Yeah, Caitlin going evil just because she has cold powers doesn't work with how the show has has shown getting powers in the past.  They probably didn't go with the more obvious heat vampire reason so they could easily resolve it for now.  Still, there's something really off with how they've always had this fear that Caitlin was one step from going evil.   

[rubyred]

This current trend in time-traveling shows is so damn exhausting. I could keep up with it on Dr Who because it was Dr Who and I could basically ignore the lack of consistency because of the actors/characters and they were traveling through space as well as time. But the way it's half-assed on the CW shows, and now there's this huge theory about alternate timelines on Westworld -- ENOUGH. I don't need there to be alternate damn timelines in every freaking show I watch, and yet you can't get away from them. Despite the fact that the concepts of consistent worldbuilding and logical consequences - stating whatever the rules are for time travel - are apparently not in budget because they're not consistent from show to show or episode to episode.

But here we are. "Flashpoint" is now code for "this is the reason everything sucks and it's all your fault Barry." To me this is such an oversimplification I completely check out once the word is uttered. I think if you're going to believe in the concept of timelines, you have to allow for the fact that there are an infinite number of potential timelines co-existing. Just as there are alternate Earths, there are alternate timelines. Flashpoint, in and of itself, did not DO anything. Flashpoint is an alternate timeline influenced by any number of coincidences, possibilities, probabilities, etc. So maybe Dante died in this timeline called "Flashpoint". But he's alive in any infinite number of other timelines. So suck it up, Cisco, damn. I love this character but frankly I always thought Dante was a prick and good riddance (and I feel no guilt about it, because Dante is a fictional character and even thinking about this to this extent is dumb because the timeline didn't cause anything, they've stated point blank Dante was killed by a drunk driver which means it was an ACCIDENT.) Argh! /rant

[maryle]

  I love Iris,  Caitlin and Cisco and they were all use wisely in the episode.

Cisco and Caitlin reaction to Barry mess up are logical and Iris got to reassure her man.

I loved the episode and the little bargaining of Julian was a nice little twist. I still find Harry funny but I wish for a bigger storyline for him

[wilnil]

13 hours ago, KirkB said:

Though technically Ronnie died in the black hole because Barry caused it to happen in the first place.

Maybe I'm misremembering this because everyone says Barry created the singularity, but the way I remember it:

1. Barry goes back in time intending to save his mother but is intercepted by his older self, who signals him to back off.
2. He returns to the present, having made no change in the past at all and thus breaking out of his deal with Eobard; so he attacks Eobard the instant he's back. No singularity at this point.
3. Eobard gets the better of him in the fight, so to keep Eobard from killing Barry, his ancestor Eddie shoots himself to death. Eobard disintegrates flashily (no pun intended).
4. Now the singularity appears and quickly grows to city-engulfing size.

That sequence says to me that Eddie inadvertently created it via the paradox he engineered.

[EmilyBettFan]

I watched this episode after not watching any of season 2 and I enjoyed Caitlin. They need to use her more this way. Danielle really delivers as killer frost. Also I know why I don't watch this show consistently like I do with Arrow. Almost everyone involved with the show tell Barry so many times in each episode how he's the greatest. 

When really he's not. This is why I just can't get into it like season 1. Even though they did that back then to. It's just too much.

Edited November 25, 2016 by EmilyBettFan

[ElectricBoogaloo]

My biggest issue this week was with Barry saying "him and I." That's at least 100 demerits in my book.

13 hours ago, futurechemist said:

Barry : Caitlin :: Xander : Dark Willow.  I think the show owes Joss Whedon a royalty check.

Barry telling Caitlin she would have to kill him in order to talk her down from the edge of crazy reminded me of EVERY season of The Vampire Diaries when someone inevitably flips off the humanity switch and then someone has to convince them to come back from a serial killer spree (just last week on TVD, Bonnie set a house on fire and almost died to get Enzo's humanity back). But yeah, Barry's "you'll have to kill me" ploy was very Yellow Crayon Speech.

[johntfs]

18 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

No. We saw Singh put in the position of Principal when Julian reported Barry's tardiness and disappearances in the second episode.

I had no problem with Barry punching Julian. I also didn't see Barry trying to change Julian's mind about quitting in exchange for his silence. He accepted it. 

So I suppose Central City only has one police  department, eh?

I did laugh at Julian telling Barry that he didn't deserve to be a CSI, as if being one is more important, more prestigious than say, being a cop, or fireman. CSIs are techs, despite what the CSI franchise tried to tell me.????

The CSIs determine what the evidence says.  They decide that your fingerprint or DNA matches the sample (or not).  So if Barry favors certain people/metas over others, he can enforce that favoritism as a CSI.  He can corrupt/alter a sample or evidence to show that no, Caitlin didn't do it even if she did.  And if he's sure someone else is guilty but the evidence isn't there, he can manufacture some.  This has happened before.  If Barry wants special treatment for his friends, then Julian is right.  Barry really shouldn't be in a position to give that special treatment.

As for Julian, I get the feeling that he used to be Alchemy but quit.  Perhaps because he was "burned" before.  Suppose he gave somebody weather-control powers with the idea that they could turn deserts into garden and they use it to bring tornadoes so they can rob banks.  Julian's bitterness toward metas might be less that they're abusing their gifts and more that they're abusing his gift that he gave to them.  "Right, so I gave you the power to generate and control electricity to prevent blackouts and provide clean energy and you're using it to be carnival attraction, "The Human Lightbulb."  Well, no point giving powers to more shiteheads.  I'm bagging this Alchemy gig as a bad idea."

[KirkB]

As far as we know, all Alchemy does is give people powers. Why would Savitar want/need that? He's the god of speed. What does he get out of populating the world with more super powered people, some of which (like Wally) are bound to stand against him?

[ottoDbusdriver]

Was Savitar created by the particle accelerator explosion and just biding his time for 2 seasons ?

Did he even exist in this timeline BEFORE Flashpoint occurred ?

Enquiring readers want to know.  :)

Edited November 24, 2016 by ottoDbusdriver

[Aeryn13]

I think messing with the timeline too much, i.e. creating an alternative universe and then destroying it again and remaking the old timeline in the process might create such ripples, other speedsters take notice. Earth1 must act like a huge beacon. But somehow the episode gave me the feeling it`s personal for Savitar. He has plans for Caitlin? Why her especially? She wasn`t even one of the people he had Alchemy power up.    

[phoenics]

5 hours ago, KirkB said:

As far as we know, all Alchemy does is give people powers. Why would Savitar want/need that? He's the god of speed. What does he get out of populating the world with more super powered people, some of which (like Wally) are bound to stand against him?

I think he gets something out of their power after the fact.  I recall some comic lore vaguely that he absorbs their energy after a point?  I dunno.  Something about when they shed their husks?  I tried to go back to find the reference online, but couldn't... so maybe it was in my imagination.

[AD35]

Quote

Meanwhile Savitar is super-uber-powered. Maybe they should rework the opening narration into "my name is Barry Allen and I`m pretty sure I`m like the 8th-fastest person alive".   

 

LOL, with all of these speedsters that the show loves to put in, each one somehow faster than Barry, they really should consider changing Barry's statement about being the fastest man alive.  Right now I think he'd qualify as the 6th fastest person (after Savitar, Zoom, Reverse Flash, Jesse Quick and Wally).

Edited November 24, 2016 by AD35

[phoenics]

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I think messing with the timeline too much, i.e. creating an alternative universe and then destroying it again and remaking the old timeline in the process might create such ripples, other speedsters take notice. Earth1 must act like a huge beacon. But somehow the episode gave me the feeling it`s personal for Savitar. He has plans for Caitlin? Why her especially? She wasn`t even one of the people he had Alchemy power up.    

Wait - I missed this?  When did Alchemy or Savitar say that he has plans for Caitlin?

[Primal Slayer]

On 11/23/2016 at 4:15 PM, futurechemist said:

Barry : Caitlin :: Xander : Dark Willow.  I think the show owes Joss Whedon a royalty check.

Did Flashpoint replace Captain Singh with Detective Greg Grunberg? (I forget the character's name)

Nah, if it were Cisco (which it shouldve been) that talked Caitlin down, that would be more equal to Xander/Dark Willow. It would be like if Buffy was the one who talked Dark Willow down, the friendship is there but not as much history as Xander/Willow who've been bffs since forever like Cisco/Caitlin have.

[rtms77]

I disagree that the various powers don't have physical or mental changes on the people they affect. Cisco is now having mini strokes. When using his powers, Barry got accelerated healing, Citizen Steel was healed from hemophilia , Ronnie was a mental case before figuring out what happened to him. So for some gaining these powers can alter them physically at least. So why can't they alter you mentally/psychology? What's to say that Caitlin use of her powers each time alters her brain chemistry to the point she becomes a sociopath or even psychopathic.

[KirkB]

I see what you're saying but it's not entirely the same thing. Barry may have a hyper accelerated metabolism but he is still the same goofy, wants to help people guy he was before the particle accelerator exploded. Steel wasn't cured I don't think, if he's hurt when he's not metal he can still have a problem, but again the powers didn't fundamentally change him except the metal skin. Ronnie was only a mental case because he had two minds clashing. And neither Ronnie nor Stein were different people from who they had been. Even the villains who got powers were the same people afterwards. Barry's bully, who got similar powers to Steel, was just as much of a bully as he'd always been. Peekaboo was a law breaking thief who never really wanted to hurt anyone and didn't become a murderer because she could teleport. Zoom was a psychopath even before he got the powers. Yes, Cisco is suffering from mini strokes, and that is one of the more consistent things. We have seen people whose powers can actually physically damage or affect them in some manner. Caitlin, as far as I can recall, seems to be the only one who has demonstrated a psychological alteration akin to disassociate identity disorder. Given the rather lax 'rules' of this verse I'm not saying such a thing can't happen, I'm just curious why Caitlin is the only person it seems to have happened to.

Edited November 25, 2016 by KirkB

[Argenta]

On 11/23/2016 at 6:56 PM, GHScorpiosRule said:

This is going to be vastly unpopular but...

Caitlin or Killer Frost (since it was the latter saying the words) just needs to shut up about how it's Barry's fault that Ronnie is dead; or that he "died" the first time. Ronnie made the choice to sacrifice himself the first time when the Particle Accelerator exploded.  That is all on Eobard as Wells. Barry didn't ask or make Ronnie jump into that black hole at the end of the first season, either. Eddie made the choice to kill himself to stop Thawne.

Dante being dead is Barry's fault-since that was a result of Flashpoint. I suppose since Cisco loved Dante, that can account for his grief, Dante treated Cisco like shit, and he was an asshole, so pardon me for not giving any fucks that he's not around.

And since I don't watch Arrow, I don't care about Baby Sara.

And who's to say Dante and Baby Sara aren't because of Legends of Tomorrow? I know, I know, it's a stretch. But I'm tired of this blaming Barry when they said they didn't want to know.

What I have to say about Wally I'll post in the previous episode since he was a nonentity here, except I hate that he's faster than Barry.

I'll just sit here at my table for one as Barry's lone fan.

I'll join you. Agree with everything you said above. A lot of posters here give Barry a really hard time about the timeline changes he's made - unfairly, iIMO. Changing things to bring his parents back was not objectively the right decision, but I feel it was understandable in the face of the trauma he'd been through witnessing them both be brutally murdered. And the 'original' timeline (i.e. the one in which his mom was killed) was not even the 'correct' one to start with - it only existed as a result of Eobard's malevolent interference. 

It all can't be changed now, and berating Barry won't make things any better. He didn't directly cause Ronnie's or Eddie's or Dante's death.

On a lighter note, quite entertaining to see anti-metahuman Julian as Savitar's bitch :p

Edited November 25, 2016 by Argenta

[johntfs]

35 minutes ago, Argenta said:

 

On a lighter note, quite entertaining to see anti-metahuman Julian as Savitar's bitch :p

Except it really didn't come off that onscreen to me.  It seemed more like Savitar was asking Julian to become Alchemy (again?).  Which indicates a more equal relationship between.  Perhaps Savitar was the first meta Julian/Alchemy made.

[Trini]

Another reason I'm kinda sad that Barry no longer a CSI: I'm going to miss him and Julian being SO DONE with each other.

 

18 hours ago, phoenics said:

Wait - I missed this?  When did Alchemy or Savitar say that he has plans for Caitlin?

It was the acolyte that Caitlin visited that said Savitar had plans for her.

[GHScorpiosRule]

13 minutes ago, Trini said:

Another reason I'm kinda sad that Barry no longer a CSI: I'm going to miss him and Julian being SO DONE with each other.

Yeah. And no more of Barry saying "It 'tis."

[Trini]

I noticed this when I watched, but I couldn't fully make out what the sign said on my TV screen: Frozen reference.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Wait - I missed this?  When did Alchemy or Savitar say that he has plans for Caitlin?

The disciple Caitlin cornered said it. I don`t think the writers would have put it in there if nothing is supposed to come from it. 

[BkWurm1]

On 11/24/2016 at 3:19 AM, wilnil said:

Maybe I'm misremembering this because everyone says Barry created the singularity, but the way I remember it:

1. Barry goes back in time intending to save his mother but is intercepted by his older self, who signals him to back off.
2. He returns to the present, having made no change in the past at all and thus breaking out of his deal with Eobard; so he attacks Eobard the instant he's back. No singularity at this point.
3. Eobard gets the better of him in the fight, so to keep Eobard from killing Barry, his ancestor Eddie shoots himself to death. Eobard disintegrates flashily (no pun intended).
4. Now the singularity appears and quickly grows to city-engulfing size.

That sequence says to me that Eddie inadvertently created it via the paradox he engineered.

All I know is that just traveling back to save his mother risked creating the singularity whether he made changes or not and shortly after Barry returned from doing what he was warned might create the breach, the breach was created.  No previous warnings were made about a sudden paradox causing the singularity, just the act of the time travel.  So Barry still gets the credit/blame in my book.    ;)

[Kromm]

Did they really say "ultraviolet cold signatures"?

I actually always had the impression that Infrared was used for that, but maybe that's only for warmer temps. Because apparently the show kind of got this right, if I am interpreting this correctly:

http://pubs.rsc.org/en/Content/ArticleLanding/2013/TC/C3TC30763H#!divAbstract