S01.E06: The Watergate Tape

[KaveDweller]

I'm really getting curious how Flynn got the journal from Lucy. They know he went right to 1937 after he stole the machine, right? They know that from tracking him.  So did he have access to the time machine before that? 

[benteen]

I really enjoyed this episode once again.  This show continues to be a lot of fun and getting better and more interesting all the time.  I liked how they tied the missing minutes of the Nixon tape to Rittenhouse.  Strong episode for the Flynn character.  I was amused at Matt Lanter saying "Jedi Mind Trick" considering he was the voice of Anakin Skywalker for years on The Clone Wars.  I also laughed at Rufus saying that Lucy was his side piece.

Although I couldn't help but notice that I knew more about Watergate than Rufus the Genius.  He barely seemed to know what happened, he didn't know about missing 18 minutes and he had never heard about Deep Throat?  Seriously on that last one?  I can get Mark Felt not coming to mind right away...it was only within the last few years that his identity was revealed (the show did a great job of incorporating that in the story now that the information is known) but Rufus the Genius had no idea what Deep Throat was?  Come on...

The setting for next week's episode has me very excited.

[methodwriter85]

The idea that Anthony might be a future person, thus explaining how he can travel back to 1972 despite clearly being over 50, is pretty mind-blowing!

[possibilities]

I was expecting the secrets to come out because the team trusted and confided in each other. I don't know why I expected that, but that's how my mind worked, especially after Lucy and Rufus went to bat to keep Wyatt in the group "because we trust him." So, having them get outed against their wills was interesting. Not sure if I like or dislike it, just sinking in that they went for "uneasy alliance due to necessity" rather than "increased bonding due to building trust." 

[wanderingstar]

"I can barely single agent." Rufus is a gem. 

Wyatt is so corny with his righteous indignation and his boring ass dead wife angst.

OTOH, Rufus and Lucy are fun together. 

On a shallow note - good Lord Goran Visnjic is pretty!

Edited November 16, 2016 by Gillian Rosh

[Shanna Marie]

13 minutes ago, possibilities said:

I was expecting the secrets to come out because the team trusted and confided in each other. I don't know why I expected that, but that's how my mind worked, especially after Lucy and Rufus went to bat to keep Wyatt in the group "because we trust him." So, having them get outed against their wills was interesting. Not sure if I like or dislike it, just sinking in that they went for "uneasy alliance due to necessity" rather than "increased bonding due to building trust."

I suppose they were going for creating a bond and a sense of trust to raise the emotional impact when the revelations came out. If those revelations had come out before the trust developed, there would have been less of a sense of betrayal.

[orza]

45 minutes ago, benteen said:

Although I couldn't help but notice that I knew more about Watergate than Rufus the Genius.  He barely seemed to know what happened, he didn't know about missing 18 minutes and he had never heard about Deep Throat?  Seriously on that last one?  I can get Mark Felt not coming to mind right away...it was only within the last few years that his identity was revealed (the show did a great job of incorporating that in the story now that the information is known) but Rufus the Genius had no idea what Deep Throat was?  Come on...

It has nothing to do with being a genius, it's cultural. Lucy knew all about what the establishment white men were up to then and Rufus had detailed knowledge of Eldridge Cleaver and Black activism at that time. What was accomplished back then had more of a lasting impact on his life than anything a bunch of crooked white dudes did.

[dr pepper]

This week on "Nerd Soul Brother", we discover that Rittenhouse is the Illuminati. Oh, that explains everything. A century spanning conspiracy of political domination so above mundane issues that you can be born into it even if you are of a disfavored (especially considering it was founded when the Federalists were the latest flavor in avant garde thinking) ethnicity. But if you derail US history sufficiently, eventually you'll create a timeline in which they won't decide to murder Flynn's family. Flynn is smarter than Doctor Who, he knows how to destroy a fixed point in time.

And speaking of ethnicity, didn't Rufus just eat it up when he had a chance to use his skin as an all access pass? Get down, Rufus! Too bad there wasn't time to pick up some hand embroidered bell bottoms and a few Hendrix LPs.

In other news, Wyatt resists the Last Temptation, and everyone agrees that they can't trust each other but promise to anyway. Happy ending!

I hope the next episode tightens things up.

Edited November 16, 2016 by dr pepper

[KaveDweller]

25 minutes ago, orza said:

It has nothing to do with being a genius, it's cultural. Lucy knew all about what the establishment white men were up to then and Rufus had detailed knowledge of Eldridge Cleaver and Black activism at that time. What was accomplished back then had more of a lasting impact on his life than anything a bunch of crooked white dudes did.

It makes sense that he knew more about Black activism and that it's what he remembered. But knowing what happened to Nixon is some pretty basic stuff that they teach in high school history. And there are several movies about it. I can believe he wouldn't know Deep Throat's real identity, but never hearing the name seems a bit odd.

But I guess they have to have one character not know things, so another character has reason to explain it to the audience. The writers must have assumed some viewers wouldn't know what Deep Throat meant.

[Moose135]

1 hour ago, methodwriter85 said:

The idea that Anthony might be a future person, thus explaining how he can travel back to 1972 despite clearly being over 50, is pretty mind-blowing!

But if he is from the future, how was he working on the time machine in the present day, then returned to the present day again after the Las Vegas trip?  If you can't come back to the same place more than once, he shouldn't have been able to return like that.

And trying to think that all through has given me a headache, and I'm going to bed...

[benteen]

30 minutes ago, KaveDweller said:

It makes sense that he knew more about Black activism and that it's what he remembered. But knowing what happened to Nixon is some pretty basic stuff that they teach in high school history. And there are several movies about it. I can believe he wouldn't know Deep Throat's real identity, but never hearing the name seems a bit odd.

But I guess they have to have one character not know things, so another character has reason to explain it to the audience. The writers must have assumed some viewers wouldn't know what Deep Throat meant.

Exactly.  Watergate is the biggest political scandal of all-time.  Everyone knew about it and white Watergate was before Rufus's time, he would know about it too.  Not knowing Felt was Deep Throat is one thing but not knowing an informant named Deep Throat helped expose Watergate?  That is basic stuff that even kids know.  I knew about it when I was a kid and Watergate was before my time.

I laughed when Denise told Wyatt that when he sees Flynn, he could blind him with his suit.

Edited November 16, 2016 by benteen

[Dowel Jones]

2 hours ago, dr pepper said:

and a few Hendrix LPs.

It gripes me that when I go into a used record store the prices are usually three times what I paid for the original album.  I could make a killing.

 

1 hour ago, benteen said:

Not knowing Felt was Deep Throat is one thing but not knowing an informant named Deep Throat helped expose Watergate? 

One of the funniest damn things I've ever heard was a black comedian (I've forgotten who) made the comment that he wanted to thank Nixon because the only black man involved with the Watergate scandal was the security guard who busted the burglars in the first place.

Ben Linus needs a cameo in this show, or maybe even a multi-episode arc.

[Ariah]

Perhaps Anthony instructed Flynn how to fly the time machine? The new version may be more intuitive than the lifeboat only Rufus knows how to fly.

That would explain why Flynn was able to land in 1972. Also, Anthony was nowhere to be seen.

They should have added a question from Rufus about it, drop just two lines to clarify. Maybe they did and it was cut.

Anyhow, liked the episode. I'm still in the minority that likes Wyatt (and is not ashamed of that).

[legaleagle53]

10 hours ago, dr pepper said:

This week on "Nerd Soul Brother", we discover that Rittenhouse is the Illuminati. Oh, that explains everything. A century spanning conspiracy of political domination so above mundane issues that you can be born into it even if you are of a disfavored (especially considering it was founded when the Federalists were the latest flavor in avant garde thinking) ethnicity. But if you derail US history sufficiently, eventually you'll create a timeline in which they won't decide to murder Flynn's family. Flynn is smarter than Doctor Who, he knows how to destroy a fixed point in time.

That's not what Flynn said.  He reminded Wyatt that he can't simply go back and prevent Rittenhouse from murdering his wife and daughter. Because Rittenhouse was founded only three years into the American Revolution (1778), he blames the US for somehow allowing/encouraging Rittenhouse to grow into the ruthless organization it has become, so he feels that by radically altering our country's history, he can eventually create a timeline not in which Rittenhouse didn't decide to murder his wife and daughter, but a timeline in which Rittenhouse never existed at all.

Edited November 16, 2016 by legaleagle53

[green]

6 hours ago, KaveDweller said:

They were kind of vague about it in the pilot, but seemed to clarify this last night. In the pilot, Wyatt asked why they didn't just go back to 5 minutes before Flynn stole the time machine, and Rufus told him because you couldn't go back to "a time where you already exist, where you might meet a double of yourself." Later in the pilot Wyatt asked if they could go back to the Hindenburg and try again, and Rufus told him no, because you can't go back to a place you might meet yourself. A place you already existed and a time you already exist are not the same thing, so they kind of contradict each other, but he did reference running into your other self both time. It left it open to the idea that you could go back to a time where you existed if it was a completely different place.

But last night when Wyatt asked Flynn about going back to save his wife and kids, Flynn said you couldn't go back to a time where you already existed, without a reference to meeting yourself. So this supports that you can't go back to any year where you exist regardless of place. But since they were still talking about a place where Flynn existed, I'm sure if the show decides they want people to go back to a more recent time they can explain it away. There have been worse continuity errors.

I don't know why they have Wyatt be the one to keep asking this question. It makes him look kind of slow.

It's also a bit flawed. I get that he is grief-stricken, but he lives in the US, right? If  that's where he met his wife? Because if he destroys the country in order to destroy Rittenhouse, his wife will probably not know him and his kid will probably not exist.

I don't think so at all.  Since they were talking about the incident where the Rittenhouse thugs murdered his wife and daughter I thought it was pretty obvious they meant a re-do of that incident which would mean Flynn would run into himself.  Thus he is hopping around in history instead trying to save them using Lucy's journal as bread crumbs.

And changing the country to be Rittenhouse-free doesn't mean the US is necessarily destroyed.  Besides Flynn is suppose to have been a CIA field operator working in eastern Europe when his family was murdered so his family could well be there and not in the US.

4 hours ago, KaveDweller said:

I'm really getting curious how Flynn got the journal from Lucy. They know he went right to 1937 after he stole the machine, right? They know that from tracking him.  So did he have access to the time machine before that? 

I'm assuming he either got it from some Rittenhouse person he tracked down in current time or that Anthony had it perhaps after making a trip to the future.

3 hours ago, orza said:

It has nothing to do with being a genius, it's cultural. Lucy knew all about what the establishment white men were up to then and Rufus had detailed knowledge of Eldridge Cleaver and Black activism at that time. What was accomplished back then had more of a lasting impact on his life than anything a bunch of crooked white dudes did.

Watergate is American History 101 starting in elementary school and isn't "cultural" since it involved the fall from grace (and office) of the president of the United States.  What?  Blacks can't know about Watergate?  Does that mean Afro-Americans don't know about the Wright Brothers too or Neil Armstrong on the moon since they were white dudes.  Sometimes famous events in history are just that.  Nothing "cultural" about it at all. 

And I assume everyone who is white knows about Eldridge Cleaver and the Black Panther Party too.  I would be shocked if only blacks somehow knew about them.  I'm white and I've always known all about them. 

Bottom line.  History is color-blind.  Stuff happens to human beings of one color doesn't mean it is segregated from the knowledge of people of other races.

[bros402]

56 minutes ago, green said:

I don't think so at all.  Since they were talking about the incident where the Rittenhouse thugs murdered his wife and daughter I thought it was pretty obvious they meant a re-do of that incident which would mean Flynn would run into himself.  Thus he is hopping around in history instead trying to save them using Lucy's journal as bread crumbs.

And changing the country to be Rittenhouse-free doesn't mean the US is necessarily destroyed.  Besides Flynn is suppose to have been a CIA field operator working in eastern Europe when his family was murdered so his family could well be there and not in the US.

I'm assuming he either got it from some Rittenhouse person he tracked down in current time or that Anthony had it perhaps after making a trip to the future.

Watergate is American History 101 starting in elementary school and isn't "cultural" since it involved the fall from grace (and office) of the president of the United States.  What?  Blacks can't know about Watergate?  Does that mean Afro-Americans don't know about the Wright Brothers too or Neil Armstrong on the moon since they were white dudes.  Sometimes famous events in history are just that.  Nothing "cultural" about it at all. 

And I assume everyone who is white knows about Eldridge Cleaver and the Black Panther Party too.  I would be shocked if only blacks somehow knew about them.  I'm white and I've always known all about them. 

Bottom line.  History is color-blind.  Stuff happens to human beings of one color doesn't mean it is segregated from the knowledge of people of other races.

I wouldn't say Watergate is covered in Elementary School. Hell, I never learned about it K-12 in any history class. Where did I learn about it? Pop culture. Think of all the times it has been covered in various forms of media - combine the various versions together and you get [roughly] the gist of it

[maczero]

Are Flynn's thugs also from the future or does he hire random goons when he goes back in time?

[sjohnson]

^^^The first references to the "BLA" in the show were extremely disorienting, until I realized the show had totally fictionalized everything else about it.

[withanaich]

Quote

Watergate is American History 101 starting in elementary school and isn't "cultural" since it involved the fall from grace (and office) of the president of the United States.  What?  Blacks can't know about Watergate?  Does that mean Afro-Americans don't know about the Wright Brothers too or Neil Armstrong on the moon since they were white dudes.  Sometimes famous events in history are just that.  Nothing "cultural" about it at all. 

And I assume everyone who is white knows about Eldridge Cleaver and the Black Panther Party too.  I would be shocked if only blacks somehow knew about them.  I'm white and I've always known all about them. 

I can promise you that there are plenty of Americans who don't know jack shit about Watergate OR the Black Panthers. Not much to do with race, just the fact that there is no standardized curriculum for anything in this country, including history. People who DO have those specific details are either over a certain age (because maybe they were teaching all this stuff in depth at some point), got into it at an early age for some reason, or studied it later on in college. I'm sure most adults have heard of Watergate, Deep Throat, and the Black Panthers, but if pressed, probably wouldn't know enough to answer specific questions about them. Just like most Americans, regardless of race, could tell you "the Wright Brothers discovered flight," but don't know their first names or where it happened. Like bros402 said, a lot of things about history that "everyone knows" are more cultural knowledge that you cobble together than anything else. This show, assuming the real details were presented accurately, was probably the first time I got a clear explanation of what happened and where and how and to whom during the Watergate scandal. Which is sad, yes, but not surprising. 

Anyway ... I'm glad everyone on the team's secrets are out, even if I don't love the way it happened. I've been screaming for Rufus to tell them what's going on, and for him to end up being a double agent, but I do NOT care for Master Sergeant Milquetoast pretending he had the authority to order him to do it. His freakout was way out of proportion because Lucy not disclosing her talks with Flynn was just a dumb, odd oversight, and while Rufus actually betrayed the others, he had a damn good reason. I wish one of them would have told Agent Crybaby to shut it. 

[Granny58]

On 11/14/2016 at 11:13 PM, KaveDweller said:

Have we seen Lucy's father before? The background music made it seem like we had and I can't remember him

Yes, in the car threatening the pilot (sorry, can't remember his name).

[Granny58]

On 11/15/2016 at 1:37 AM, Netfoot said:

This is the guy threatening Rufus in the car:

This is the guy Lucy visits at the end of the show:

Similarity of wrinkles between eyebrows, shape of left ear, etc, would suggest they are one and the same.

I thought they were different people too, glad I'm not alone in that.  My husband had to point it out to me.  By the way, I think Flynn and the woman lead (why can't I remember names this morning!) will prove to be married in the future.  

[orza]

8 hours ago, green said:

Watergate is American History 101 starting in elementary school and isn't "cultural" since it involved the fall from grace (and office) of the president of the United States.  What?  Blacks can't know about Watergate?  Does that mean Afro-Americans don't know about the Wright Brothers too or Neil Armstrong on the moon since they were white dudes.  Sometimes famous events in history are just that.  Nothing "cultural" about it at all. 

And I assume everyone who is white knows about Eldridge Cleaver and the Black Panther Party too.  I would be shocked if only blacks somehow knew about them.  I'm white and I've always known all about them. 

Bottom line.  History is color-blind.  Stuff happens to human beings of one color doesn't mean it is segregated from the knowledge of people of other races.

Not everyone is interested in all aspects of American history. Some people are more interested in those events that had an effect that they can personally feel today. Watergate is not that event for many people. How people filter their knowledge and rank it in importance can certainly be cultural. I know plenty of people who have some general knowledge of Watergate but have very limited interest in the details, and that is not just POC. Many Americans are ignorant about many important historical events and persons. Not everyone retains everything they learned in school, if they were even paying attention to begin with.

Edited November 16, 2016 by orza

[vibeology]

8 hours ago, green said:

Watergate is American History 101 starting in elementary school and isn't "cultural" since it involved the fall from grace (and office) of the president of the United States.  What?  Blacks can't know about Watergate?  Does that mean Afro-Americans don't know about the Wright Brothers too or Neil Armstrong on the moon since they were white dudes.  Sometimes famous events in history are just that.  Nothing "cultural" about it at all. 

The number of stories I've heard from people who don't make it that far in history class is astounding. In APUSH if you start with Columbus, most people don't make it past WWII before the semester/year runs out. My high school history class (Canadian so a few less wars) made it to the 1960s and then we were out of time. My US History class in university had to rush to finish WWII. This isn't something that gets covered for everyone everywhere. And of course history is cultural.

Rufus wasn't alive for Watergate. He probably knows some stuff, but as someone a few years younger than Rufus should be (based on Malcolm Barrett's age) I can honestly say I know a basic outline but not much else. I've heard people use names connected to the scandal like Halderman or Ehrichman but I have no idea who they are and how they're connected. Add to it that Rufus has other interests and would have had to study physics at a pretty high level to be a part of a time machine creating group and I can see how this wasn't something that stuck for him even if he's encountered it before.

[legaleagle53]

23 minutes ago, orza said:

Not everyone is interested in all aspects of American history. Some people are more interested in those events that had an effect that they can personally feel today. Watergate is not that event for many people. How people filter their knowledge and rank it in importance can certainly be cultural. I know plenty of people who have some general knowledge of Watergate but have very limited interest in the details, and that is not just POC. Many Americans are ignorant about many important historical events and persons. Not everyone retains everything they learned in school, if they were even paying attention to begin with.

That's very true.  I was only 11 when Watergate happened, and all I really remember about it was that it was very serious and that I was feeling very scared because I didn't know what would happen if the President were to be impeached over it.  The details went right over my head, and it's only now as an adult that I can look back and understand what was going on and just WHY it was so serious and why Nixon resigned before he could be impeached -- and how and why the country was able to move on afterwards.  When you're only 11, such details are simply irrelevant to you.

Edited November 16, 2016 by legaleagle53

[Raja]

12 hours ago, dr pepper said:

 

And speaking of ethnicity, didn't Rufus just eat it up when he had a chance to use his skin as an all access pass? Get down, Rufus! Too bad there wasn't time to pick up some hand embroidered bell bottoms and a few Hendrix LPs.
 

Going with the skin color theme Jimi Hendrix crossed over, Rufus going for his albums would be like a future time traveler going for  Darius Rucker because they shared skin color but not pop cultural preferences 

[Akenta]

I'm still on the fence with this show.  I like the plots with the characters enough to keep watching.  I like time travel in general.  I don't care for the history part of the shows.  Would be better if they didn't focus on major events and just used the general time instead.  Nixon being involved with Rittenhouse - that was a little too much for me.  I guess there is a point to all of it...

[Lugal]

I thought this was their best ep yet.  We finally get some answers.  Spot on about Rittenhouse being the Illuminati.  Nice to get some insight in to Flynn too, so he's not the villain everyone thought he was.

With Rufus and Lucy out working together and Wyatt tied up, it showed that the show would be fine with just Lucy and Rufus.

[dubbel zout]

20 minutes ago, Akenta said:

Nixon being involved with Rittenhouse - that was a little too much for me.

For me, too. But the conspiracy has to be big enough to drive the story. I basically ignore the more ludicrous aspects of it. Of course there are going to be coincidences that are ridiculous.

[orza]

They need an overarching element like the Rittenhouse story to tie it all together and provide a serialized story that viewers will come back for. Without that it would be a procedural showing the gang visiting a different time period each week for what purpose?

[Shanna Marie]

10 hours ago, Ariah said:

Perhaps Anthony instructed Flynn how to fly the time machine? The new version may be more intuitive than the lifeboat only Rufus knows how to fly.

That would explain why Flynn was able to land in 1972. Also, Anthony was nowhere to be seen.

It's also possible that the time machine itself is a kind of bubble that doesn't count as being in that time -- as long as you stay in the machine, you're not really in that time, so you can visit any time. That would give them some flexibility with piloting. The pilot can go to any time, whether or not he was alive or whether or not he's always visited. He just has to stay in the ship the whole time.

[LoneHaranguer]

1 hour ago, orza said:

Not everyone retains everything they learned in school, if they were even paying attention to begin with.

That may be just as well, as what is taught in public school is highly propagandized and you don't learn the truth unless you watch boring documentaries or take history classes in college. For example, Fulton didn't really invent the steamboat, he just brought them to the Mississippi, there are at least three other contenders to the Wright Bros for flight, and slavery was just the moral face to a war that was really more about financial and Constitutional issues. 

10 hours ago, green said:

And I assume everyone who is white knows about Eldridge Cleaver and the Black Panther Party too.  I would be shocked if only blacks somehow knew about them.  I'm white and I've always known all about them. 

I'm terrible with names, so Eldridge Cleaver was a name I knew I'd heard, but couldn't have identified.

[TobinAlbers]

10 hours ago, Ariah said:

Anyhow, liked the episode. I'm still in the minority that likes Wyatt (and is not ashamed of that).

I like Wyatt, too.  But yeah he does have a cliched backstory. I still vote/wish they had it that he lost a husband rather than a wife just to mix it up but then that'd be veering too close to another bad TV trope. And I still hope that while futzing around in the past that when Wyatt comes back to the future he finds that he's still a widower but now with a kid that he had with his late wife. Then he's going to be really protective and determined to protect the kid from Rittenhouse.

Anyhoo I liked how he took charge tactically and called them both out and then 'righted' the situation by making Rufus a double agent and let them both know that at the moment he doesn't trust them. It actually makes Rufus and Lucy closer and have a bond as needing to make up for their choices. However, Wyatt obviously is being set up for allying with Flynn on the personal note of losing your wife.

10 hours ago, green said:

It's also a bit flawed. I get that he is grief-stricken, but he lives in the US, right? If  that's where he met his wife? Because if he destroys the country in order to destroy Rittenhouse, his wife will probably not know him and his kid will probably not exist.

I think Flynn could live with that. He knows he may not get everything right and will have to settle for saving his wife so that she at least has a happy future . But what I think will happen is that Flynn will ultimately be forced to cross his own timeline to save his family. His future self will die thwarting the murder attempt and save his past family -including himself- or he saves them and travels back to the present and dies from 'parts of him missing' like the previous time traveler Rufus referred to.  I think it depends on if you cross with yourself do BOTH versions of you die or is it the time traveling version of you?

As much as I love GV, the show can survive without him as the antagonist/anti-hero and would be a great twist in the narrative. Also his past self would still be alive in the current timeline (if my theory of just the time traveler dying rather than both versions), just with a family, so he could still be a CIA operative that pops up every now and again to aid the strangers that helped save his family.

Edited November 16, 2016 by TobinAlbers

[benteen]

Still not buying Rufus never hearing the term Deep Throat.  It's too smart not to know that.

Quote

And speaking of ethnicity, didn't Rufus just eat it up when he had a chance to use his skin as an all access pass? Get down, Rufus! Too bad there wasn't time to pick up some hand embroidered bell bottoms and a few Hendrix LPs.

Yeah, that was fun.  At least time traveling missions from the 70s on should be a lot more safer for him.

[dubbel zout]

26 minutes ago, TobinAlbers said:

I like Wyatt, too.  But yeah he does have a cliched backstory.

I'm neutral on Wyatt, but I don't think his backstory makes him any more interesting or layered. Why can't he just be dedicated to serving his country? Not every character in every drama on TV has to have a tragic past.

[orza]

27 minutes ago, benteen said:

Still not buying Rufus never hearing the term Deep Throat.  It's too smart not to know that.

I can buy it. Since Deep Throat is a direct reference to a well-known porn movie of the time and a specific sex act depicted in the film, I can see lots of teachers glossing over that to avoid embarrassing questions and just talking about a secret informant.

[AV8n]

It's become pretty apparent from reading this thread that Lin-Manuel Miranda needs to get to work on a Watergate musical ASAP.

I'll admit I'm kinda bummed that the writers have crapped all over the theory that Flynn is anything more than a low-level NSA operative who stumbled across some Rottenhouse intel and decided to go scorched earth when they killed his family. But I guess limo guy as Lucy's father does open some possibilities. What's the over/under on Ebony Elon being the kid in Doc's family photo? Nah, probably not.

[benteen]

43 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

I'm neutral on Wyatt, but I don't think his backstory makes him any more interesting or layered. Why can't he just be dedicated to serving his country? Not every character in every drama on TV has to have a tragic past.

I like Wyatt but I agree.  Every character doesn't have to have a tragic past.

[DFWGina]

What about Lucy's missing sister?  Is that never going to be spoken of again???

[Dowel Jones]

1 hour ago, benteen said:

Still not buying Rufus never hearing the term Deep Throat.  It's too smart not to know that.

I did like the reaction of the lady outside the phone booth when Rufus said, "We're off to talk to Deep Throat."  She definitely recognized the reference.

[cynic]

3 hours ago, vibeology said:

The number of stories I've heard from people who don't make it that far in history class is astounding. In APUSH if you start with Columbus, most people don't make it past WWII before the semester/year runs out. My high school history class (Canadian so a few less wars) made it to the 1960s and then we were out of time. My US History class in university had to rush to finish WWII. This isn't something that gets covered for everyone everywhere. And of course history is cultural.

Rufus wasn't alive for Watergate. He probably knows some stuff, but as someone a few years younger than Rufus should be (based on Malcolm Barrett's age) I can honestly say I know a basic outline but not much else. I've heard people use names connected to the scandal like Halderman or Ehrichman but I have no idea who they are and how they're connected. Add to it that Rufus has other interests and would have had to study physics at a pretty high level to be a part of a time machine creating group and I can see how this wasn't something that stuck for him even if he's encountered it before.

I am a little older than Rufus and I was an honors student all through school. We didn't cover Watergate in any of my classes. We were lucky if we could get Vietnam in. I feel bad for kids today. There's even more history now!

I know the reference to Deep Throat, but I must've picked it up from movies/books/tv. Still, even though I'm a big nerd, read tons of non-fiction, and love history, I still couldn't tell you much about it.

[vibeology]

5 minutes ago, Dowel Jones said:

I did like the reaction of the lady outside the phone booth when Rufus said, "We're off to talk to Deep Throat."  She definitely recognized the reference.

I thought the joke there was that she recognized the term from the porn movie and was shocked to hear it. They went back to June 20, 1972. Would anyone know about Deep Throat (the source) by that point?

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

Timeless Finally Solves The Watergate Tapes Mystery

But raises some interesting questions about where our crew is headed.

[iMonrey]

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It could just be that the characters don't really know, and it's all conjecture based on the one time they mentioned in the pilot. If they knew the rules for sure, they wouldn't have found out the hard way what happens if you break them.

That's a good point. They haven't done a good job of establishing the rules beyond "no do-overs," and that part seems fairly obvious from the standpoint of a weekly TV show needing to move forward rather than repeating the same story over and over again. There are apparently only 2 time machines - the one hijacked by Flynn, and the "life boat" prototype. We don't know how many tests were made before Flynn stole one of them. They apparently discovered that running into one's self proved disastrous but beyond that? There may be little aside from extrapolation based on that one event. We'll have to wait and see if they go back to the 90s or early 2000s.

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Because Rittenhouse was founded only three years into the American Revolution (1778), he blames the US for somehow allowing/encouraging Rittenhouse to grow into the ruthless organization it has become, so he feels that by radically altering our country's history, he can eventually create a timeline not in which Rittenhouse didn't decide to murder his wife and daughter, but a timeline in which Rittenhouse never existed at all.

This is where the show has a problem. Going back to 1937 is not going to prevent Rittenhouse from ever existing if they were founded in 1778. Neither is going back to 1865, and neither is going back to 1962. Presumably, in each instance Flynn had a plan to destroy Rittenhouse by altering a key moment in time, but none of those plans would have prevented it from being formed in the first place. He'd have to go back to 1778 or earlier if he wants to accomplish that.

And exactly how many precise moments in time, or historical events, can Flynn try to alter in order to destroy Rittenhouse before he runs out of chances? That's where the premise is eventually going to run out of options or become absurd. Assuming he never reaches his goal by the end of this season he will have failed to sufficiently alter history 22 different times. At what point does he give up? They can't keep chasing their tails forever.

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Are Flynn's thugs also from the future or does he hire random goons when he goes back in time?

That's another good question because they keep taking out various goons in various timelines. I think Wyatt shot most of them in 1962. Does Flynn have a bunch of spares at the ready whenever he returns to the present? "All right numbers 12, 13, and 14 - you're up!" On the other hand, recruiting new goons every time he travels back in time would be a monumental task. The "lifeboat" time machine that Lucy, Wyatt and Rufus are using only holds 3 passengers. It's unlikely the other time machine holds more than that and assuming Anthony is always one of the passengers, where does all the other goons fit?

[legaleagle53]

1 hour ago, DFWGina said:

What about Lucy's missing sister?  Is that never going to be spoken of again???

First, I believe Lucy did mention her in this episode.  Second, she's not "missing."  She simply never existed, except in Lucy's memories.

[Chaos Theory]

I have no idea what my school taught.  I went to a upper middle class high school but it was late 80s/early 90s.  I heard of the Nixon tapes and Deep Throat but had no idea who he was. Heard of the Black Panthers but not Eldridge Cleaver.  

[AV8n]

Eldridge Cleaver was married to June Cleaver, right? So that's how she got fluent in Jive!

[Moose135]

4 minutes ago, AV8n said:

Eldridge Cleaver was married to June Cleaver, right? So that's how she got fluent in Jive!

That reminds me of a cartoon I saw a hundred years ago: "The Cleaver boys, Wally, Eldridge, and The Beaver"

[green]

7 hours ago, maczero said:

Are Flynn's thugs also from the future or does he hire random goons when he goes back in time?

Yeah Flynn and Anthony must have their own organization at this point if they are churning out Red Shirts to get killed for them each new trip.

12 hours ago, bros402 said:

I wouldn't say Watergate is covered in Elementary School. Hell, I never learned about it K-12 in any history class. Where did I learn about it? Pop culture. Think of all the times it has been covered in various forms of media - combine the various versions together and you get [roughly] the gist of it

Rant: This is so sad.  A president of the United States was impeached then he would have been put on trial so he quickly resigns to avoid all that.  That is a really REALLY big deal.  One of the biggest governmental crisis in the history of the country ever. 

What DO they teach in American history these days?  Because come to think of it I remember hearing most high school students didn't know who America was fighting in the largest, most bloodiest war in all of human history (WWII).  Those that threw out names tended to guess the Russians or the Chinese.  And some of these same people repeat like dumb parrots "thank you for your service" without even bothering to learn anything about what the soldiers did and went through because they can't be bothered to learn.

No wonder we will soon have the government we totally deserve to live under given our lack of historical prospect.  Without history it is like living in Flatland.  You are missing a major dimension in the world that ties everything together and gives you the vision to see where you should go because you know where you have come from.

3 hours ago, Lugal said:

I thought this was their best ep yet.  We finally get some answers.  Spot on about Rittenhouse being the Illuminati.  Nice to get some insight in to Flynn too, so he's not the villain everyone thought he was.

With Rufus and Lucy out working together and Wyatt tied up, it showed that the show would be fine with just Lucy and Rufus.

I so wouldn't mind Wyatt being tied up every episode though a gag would help as well.  The writers really laid an egg with that character.  And I too loved the Lucy and Rufus chemistry without him around.

[Netfoot]

2 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

Not every character in every drama on TV has to have a tragic past.

Are you sure?  Because both Wyatt and Flynn do, and Daisy Deadpan has a tragic present.  And that's in this one show alone!

[MzLiz]

I am really disappointed to hear all the negativity about Wyatt. I really like him. ?

I like that we at least got some back story in this episode.

As soon as Lucy was getting ready to knock on her dad's door, I was like, oh crap, I just know it'a going to be that guy that has been threatening Rufus and sure enough it was.