S01.E06: The Watergate Tape

[green]

2 minutes ago, Netfoot said:

Are you sure?  Because both Wyatt and Flynn do, and Daisy Deadpan has a tragic present.  And that's in this one show alone!

And don't forget Rufus could have a tragic future regards his family if he doesn't play ball with Rittenhouse.  There is enough past angst, current angst and possible future angst for everyone it seems.

[dubbel zout]

17 minutes ago, green said:

A president of the United States was impeached then he would have been put on trial so he quickly resigns to avoid all that.

Nixon was not impeached. He resigned before the House of Representatives voted on the Articles of Impeachment. (If that's what you were saying, it was a bit unclear.)

[vibeology]

40 minutes ago, green said:

What DO they teach in American history these days?  Because come to think of it I remember hearing most high school students didn't know who America was fighting in the largest, most bloodiest war in all of human history (WWII).  Those that threw out names tended to guess the Russians or the Chinese.  And some of these same people repeat like dumb parrots "thank you for your service" without even bothering to learn anything about what the soldiers did and went through because they can't be bothered to learn.

APUSH - AP US History starts pre-Columbus (though they barely cover that) and moves forward chronologically. There are only so many hours of classroom time and what happens in pretty much every case I know of from American friends (and I know anecdotal evidence isn't worth too much) is that they get to about WWII before the semester/year is over and they have to do review before a three hour exam. Post WWII doesn't get much coverage only because there doesn't end up being enough time. The truth is history is vast and for everything that does get covered, a hundred things don't. No one can know everything. Which is one thing I liked so far. Lucy has gaps in her knowledge. She didn't know the Black Panther movement all that well because its not something that gets covered in textbooks and classes all that often. Rufus knew it because it was something he had an interest in. That's believable. Wyatt knew the Alamo because he grew up in Texas and it was a big deal. People remember the things that resonate with them personally so I like that we're seeing that through our three main characters.

[vibeology]

Sorry. Double post.

Edited November 16, 2016 by vibeology

[proserpina65]

2 hours ago, vibeology said:

I thought the joke there was that she recognized the term from the porn movie and was shocked to hear it. They went back to June 20, 1972. Would anyone know about Deep Throat (the source) by that point?

Only Woodward and Bernstein.

[Lugal]

So we also know that Lucy was accepted into the project not because of her historical knowledge, but due to her bloodline.

2 hours ago, cynic said:

I am a little older than Rufus and I was an honors student all through school. We didn't cover Watergate in any of my classes. We were lucky if we could get Vietnam in. I feel bad for kids today. There's even more history now!

I'm also a few years older than Rufus and Watergate and Vietnam were considered recent history and so they weren't really covered in history class.  Since the History curriculum is set by the local school districts, and what is taught varies anyway.  Growing up in southeastern Pennsylvania, we learned a lot more about Robert Fulton (took a field trip to his house) and James Buchanan (another field trip) than most other kids from elsewhere.

1 hour ago, green said:

I so wouldn't mind Wyatt being tied up every episode though a gag would help as well.  The writers really laid an egg with that character.  And I too loved the Lucy and Rufus chemistry without him around.

And without Wyatt they were actually able to score a few points against not only Flynn, but Rittenhouse as well.

[stanleyk]

5 hours ago, TobinAlbers said:

I like Wyatt, too.  But yeah he does have a cliched backstory.

I do, too. And I don't think his backstory is any more overwrought than the other two; they're all ridiculous, or heading that way. I'll also go against the grain by saying I don't much care for the actor playing Rufus. The character I like okay, but the actor is a little hammy for my taste. Lighten up on the brow-furrowing! So much brow-furrowing!

Don't really have a clue what's going on with the larger Rittenhouse plot, and don't much care, because I'm sure it will turn out to be a disappointing MacGuffin. But this show is as dumb and pretty much as fun as Legends of Tomorrow. Maybe it's inevitable that shows that have teams of people traveling through time to save history end up being the exact same kind and level of mindless entertainment.

[dubbel zout]

1 hour ago, stanleyk said:

Don't really have a clue what's going on with the larger Rittenhouse plot, and don't much care, because I'm sure it will turn out to be a disappointing MacGuffin.

It wants to rule the world. Zzzzzz.

If the show wanted to shake things up, Rittenhouse should be made up of women and POC, not a bunch of old white guys.

[Netfoot]

39 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

Rittenhouse should be made up of women and POC, not a bunch of old white guys.

Why not Pinky?  And The Brain?

[iMonrey]

Quote

What DO they teach in American history these days?  

I'm as old as dirt so I don't know about "these days" but back in my day American history was a very dry lesson in battles, names and dates covering the Revolutionary War and the Civil War. That's about it. But to be fair, even if modern American history classes cover Watergate, "Deep Throat" might not even come up.

Quote

I am really disappointed to hear all the negativity about Wyatt. I really like him.

I like the actor OK but I'm afraid he may have been woefully miscast because he's just a little too boyish looking and pretty to play a bad-ass soldier type. And the writing doesn't do him any favors either, he's coming off more and more incompetent with each passing episode.

[KaveDweller]

18 hours ago, green said:

I don't think so at all.  Since they were talking about the incident where the Rittenhouse thugs murdered his wife and daughter I thought it was pretty obvious they meant a re-do of that incident which would mean Flynn would run into himself.  Thus he is hopping around in history instead trying to save them using Lucy's journal as bread crumbs.

Well like I said, they are leaving it open for if they want to change things down the line. But previously they made a point of saying the problem was running into yourself, but Flynn said the rule was just about time. 

5 hours ago, iMonrey said:

This is where the show has a problem. Going back to 1937 is not going to prevent Rittenhouse from ever existing if they were founded in 1778. Neither is going back to 1865, and neither is going back to 1962. Presumably, in each instance Flynn had a plan to destroy Rittenhouse by altering a key moment in time, but none of those plans would have prevented it from being formed in the first place. He'd have to go back to 1778 or earlier if he wants to accomplish that.

Does Flynn know he has to go back to 1778? Maybe that's why he wanted to find Doc, because she knew when it was founded.

4 hours ago, green said:

What DO they teach in American history these days?  Because come to think of it I remember hearing most high school students didn't know who America was fighting in the largest, most bloodiest war in all of human history (WWII).  Those that threw out names tended to guess the Russians or the Chinese.  And some of these same people repeat like dumb parrots "thank you for your service" without even bothering to learn anything about what the soldiers did and went through because they can't be bothered to learn.

Okay, so FYI, I work for a large educational publisher. Our American history books currently being used/sold have an entire section devoted to Nixon/Watergate at the elementary, middle school, and high school levels, with more details in the high grades. "Deep Throat" is only specifically mentioned in the high school book. Different states teach American history at different points and some places don't use the whole book (or are supposed to and run out of time) so they may not cover it. Lots of places split American history into two years now too.  But anyway, it is in the history books. The books are all based on state standards, so if it's in one publisher's books it will be in all of them.

I am Rufus's age and I learned about Watergate in an American Government class in high school. We watched All the President's Men in class, cause my teacher tried to be cool. But I was a total nerd and didn't know Deep Throat was a porn reference until the movie Dick a few years later.

And changing the country to be Rittenhouse-free doesn't mean the US is necessarily destroyed.  Besides Flynn is suppose to have been a CIA field operator working in eastern Europe when his family was murdered so his family could well be there and not in the US.

Flynn specifically said he was trying to destroy the US because Rittenhouse is so entwined with the country. 

I couldn't remember where his family was from. If the wife was European, then it makes more sense.

[Dowel Jones]

20 minutes ago, KaveDweller said:

But I was a total nerd and didn't know Deep Throat was a porn reference until the movie Dick a few years later.

Which is probably why most high schools don't really bring the FBI source into a discussion of Watergate, as the teacher would have to answer the inevitable question "Why did they call him Deep Throat?" and from there the class is off the rails.

[dubbel zout]

Teachers can mention the source—though it was never revealed at the time that he was FBI—without saying he was nicknamed Deep Throat.

High schoolers know about porn. I don't think it's that distracting to mention the nickname. A good teacher would be able to bring the discussion back to the main points.

[KaveDweller]

18 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

Teachers can mention the source—though it was never revealed at the time that he was FBI—without saying he was nicknamed Deep Throat.

High schoolers know about porn. I don't think it's that distracting to mention the nickname. A good teacher would be able to bring the discussion back to the main points.

A really good teacher would use the porn connection to get the kids interested and remember it. 

[Raja]

7 hours ago, iMonrey said:

 

That's another good question because they keep taking out various goons in various timelines. I think Wyatt shot most of them in 1962. Does Flynn have a bunch of spares at the ready whenever he returns to the present? "All right numbers 12, 13, and 14 - you're up!" On the other hand, recruiting new goons every time he travels back in time would be a monumental task. The "lifeboat" time machine that Lucy, Wyatt and Rufus are using only holds 3 passengers. It's unlikely the other time machine holds more than that and assuming Anthony is always one of the passengers, where does all the other goons fit?

The way I understood it was "the lifeboat" was the prototype and Flynn stole the actual mission model. I would have to look at the pilot again to see how many mooks went with Flynn when he "kidnapped Bruhl and hijacked the mothership. But I would suppose that it had a bigger payload and if the mothership was disabled the lifeboat would shuttle back to pick up the time travelers two at a time.

[Maverick]

3 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

It wants to rule the world. Zzzzzz.

If the show wanted to shake things up, Rittenhouse should be made up of women and POC, not a bunch of old white guys.

 I'm not sure how one old white guy means all of Rittenhouse is the same.  The fact that Doc, not to mention the fact her family, were a part of Rittenhouse and Doc was entrusted with a crucial piece of info speaks to the contrary.  

[Dowel Jones]

1 hour ago, dubbel zout said:

Teachers can mention the source—though it was never revealed at the time that he was FBI—without saying he was nicknamed Deep Throat.

High schoolers know about porn. I don't think it's that distracting to mention the nickname. A good teacher would be able to bring the discussion back to the main points.

While all that is certainly true, I'm willing to bet there would be at least one class clown who would bring it up in a less than scholarly tone. And then the teacher would have to spend more than a few minutes of class time reeling in the herd.  More importantly, though, is that someone from the class goes home and says "We're talking about Deep Throat today" to their less than understanding parents, who go right to the principal (and the media), and the whole thing blows up (pardon the pun) in the teacher's face.  It's certainly happened before.  Anyway, speaking of going off the rails, I'll leave the discussion at anyone's else's doorstep and fold my box now.

Edited November 17, 2016 by Dowel Jones

[ratgirlagogo]

22 hours ago, Dowel Jones said:

On 11/15/2016 at 10:53 PM, dr pepper said:

and a few Hendrix LPs.

It gripes me that when I go into a used record store the prices are usually three times what I paid for the original album.  I could make a killing.

What?  I bought Jimi Hendrix's  albums when they came out and the standard price for an LP at the time was 2.99.  Nine bucks doesn't seem like much of a killing to me.  

 

It's scary how little Americans know about their own history.  I guess that explains our current situation. :(

Edited November 17, 2016 by ratgirlagogo

[orza]

2 hours ago, Dowel Jones said:

Which is probably why most high schools don't really bring the FBI source into a discussion of Watergate, as the teacher would have to answer the inevitable question "Why did they call him Deep Throat?" and from there the class is off the rails.

Exactly. No one wants to be that teacher who lost her job for talking about blow jobs during the history lesson.

[dr pepper]

11 hours ago, cynic said:

I am a little older than Rufus and I was an honors student all through school. We didn't cover Watergate in any of my classes. We were lucky if we could get Vietnam in. I feel bad for kids today. There's even more history now!

Heh. I have a book on the history of Britain that was printed in 1850. I also have one from the 1980s. They are the same size.

[cynic]

Comparing the two and seeing what gets omitted, reevaluated or even changed has to be fascinating.

[thuganomics85]

I guess it was about time to get to an episode where the team starts fracturing a bit and being put at odds.  Finding out that one teammate has been working behind your backs for a shady organization and the other has been having conversations with a creepy dude whose entire plan is based off a journal from the team member's future self, would cause some trust issues!

The mission didn't hold too many surprises, but Wyatt being captured did make things a bit interesting, with Rufus and Lucy having to be off on their own, which was fun.  And it involving the Black Liberations Movement was another nice change, because it made Rufus be the one to more or less take charge, while Lucy had to be the one to face more opposition and side-eyes.  Also enjoyed the return of the nicknames.  Any time someone called Rufus "Kanye", made me laugh more then it should.

Equally, Wyatt was actually a bit more interesting opposite of Flynn instead, even if the dead wife story really isn't bringing anything new to the territory.

Not surprised that it sounds like Flynn didn't kill his family, but it was Rittenhouse instead.  Flynn's still not a good guy, due to all the deaths and general time-traveling fuck-ups, but I wouldn't be surprised if this all leads to a shaky alliance between everyone, to take on Rittenhouse, who is likely the biggest threat.

Speaking of which, so it looks like Lucy's father is actually Evil Limo Rittenhouse guy.  Hmm...  And Mason seems to be really reluctant in all of the scenes with Rufus and that guy, so I'm wondering if they have something over him and he isn't a true Team Rittenhouse.

Is Denise/Sakina Jaffery ever going to factor into this story more?  Because right now it really feels like a waste of her talents. 

[bros402]

15 hours ago, vibeology said:

The number of stories I've heard from people who don't make it that far in history class is astounding. In APUSH if you start with Columbus, most people don't make it past WWII before the semester/year runs out. My high school history class (Canadian so a few less wars) made it to the 1960s and then we were out of time. My US History class in university had to rush to finish WWII. This isn't something that gets covered for everyone everywhere. And of course history is cultural.

Rufus wasn't alive for Watergate. He probably knows some stuff, but as someone a few years younger than Rufus should be (based on Malcolm Barrett's age) I can honestly say I know a basic outline but not much else. I've heard people use names connected to the scandal like Halderman or Ehrichman but I have no idea who they are and how they're connected. Add to it that Rufus has other interests and would have had to study physics at a pretty high level to be a part of a time machine creating group and I can see how this wasn't something that stuck for him even if he's encountered it before.

With my HS, AP US History started with Reconstruction. By the time of the AP test, we got to WW2 - we were a year into the US entrance to WW2 by the time of the test.

AP US history was a full year course at my school in Junior year. Sophomore year was Honors US History, which covered colonization through the Civil War. You had to take Honors US in order to take AP US (which was called AP US History 2 at my high school)

[possibilities]

14 hours ago, orza said:

They need an overarching element like the Rittenhouse story to tie it all together and provide a serialized story that viewers will come back for. Without that it would be a procedural showing the gang visiting a different time period each week for what purpose?

Funzies? Research? I think if the visits were interesting enough, they could make a time travel procedural and people would watch. It would be an adventure. Hell, people like simulations of past times (battle re-enactments, Medieval Times, museums, Downton Abbey....); I can easily imagine actually visiting the real thing would be a huge draw even just as a tourist endeavor.

12 hours ago, DFWGina said:

What about Lucy's missing sister?  Is that never going to be spoken of again???

Lucy made a deal that she would only continue with the missions if they helped her fix things to get her sister back. I think the subject will come up again.

17 minutes ago, thuganomics85 said:

Is Denise/Sakina Jaffery ever going to factor into this story more?  Because right now it really feels like a waste of her talents

I'd really like to know whose side she's on, and for her to have more personality in general.

I sort of miss the blowing papers, even if I loved it when they got paper weights. The show needs a little camp to keep the ridiculous parts from being annoying.

[dr pepper]

Almost forgot, one good thing that could come out of this is that Doc influences Eldridge Cleaver so that he never invents dildo pants.

https://books.google.com/books?id=Xr8DAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA22&lpg=PA22&dq=eldridge+cleaver+pants&source=bl&ots=Dyao0E30E_&sig=7J__KN00tuQPqbrQS42kZs2yBJc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiitsGxwK_QAhVT1GMKHXcXB8QQ6AEIaDAQ#v=onepage&q=eldridge cleaver pants&f=false

[Mrs OldManBalls]

When Lucy was climbing in the window to rescue Wyatt, seeing her giant purse come into the room before anything else cracked me up. Might not have been intentional humour, but it worked.

[BooBear]

6 hours ago, bros402 said:

With my HS, AP US History started with Reconstruction. By the time of the AP test, we got to WW2 - we were a year into the US entrance to WW2 by the time of the test.

I also never got past WW2. Though we spend forever on WWI.  I would have done better to stay home and watch the history channel. Which my sister did and got her GED.

This was a good episode because it shook up the pattern and I think they got new writers because since the castle episode everything has improved. My only quibble is that Flynn still seems stupid. Not only is he randomly picking things to change history which seems like it would be a strategy out of Mike the Plumber's big plan he has failed almost every time. Sad to say but he has to win one.  It might be better if he won one, got his wife and kids back, and gave them back their time machine and everyone just let sleeping dogs lie.  But at least here we got some explanation.

[sjohnson]

Yes, Flynn basically loses every week. Even if he might get a little something, he doesn't succeed in his planned major rewrites of history. But this doesn't damage the character in most people's eyes, I think because most people find Goran Visnjic sexy. Wyatt on the other hand is part of basically saving history, albeit with minor damage, but since he doesn't do what no one in the world can do when Flynn is in the present, kill Flynn, he's perceived as a terrible character. The only difference I'm seeing is that Wyatt's perceived as pretty rather than sexy, because his character is supposed to be more macho. At this point, I'm concluding it's because Visnjic is about six inches taller. 

And at this point also, I'm concluding the issue isn't going to die and it's going to pervade all commentary. Which is sort of a shame, the time travel stuff could be fun to talk about.

[Clanstarling]

On 11/14/2016 at 10:37 PM, Netfoot said:

This is the guy threatening Rufus in the car:

This is the guy Lucy visits at the end of the show:

Similarity of wrinkles between eyebrows, shape of left ear, etc, would suggest they are one and the same.

This feels like the whole "is it a white dress with gold stripes - or...) bit that went around the internet for awhile. To me it is clearly the same actor - but I've seen him in many roles, so I'm familiar. Just goes to show how different "threatening in a business suit and dark lighting" can be than "friendly in casual clothes in daylight"

 

22 hours ago, vibeology said:

The number of stories I've heard from people who don't make it that far in history class is astounding. In APUSH if you start with Columbus, most people don't make it past WWII before the semester/year runs out. My high school history class (Canadian so a few less wars) made it to the 1960s and then we were out of time. 

This is very true. I don't know how far today's kids get in history - but I graduated in 1973 (Watergate was kinda my jam) - and we barely got to WWII. You have to lose a lot of detail to make it through our history. I spent one year in a German high school - and they taught history in a very different way (since there is a lot more history to cover). History was broken up into eras - and then each year taught one era. My class (8th grade) was studying the Middle Ages.

[BooBear]

2 hours ago, sjohnson said:

Wyatt on the other hand is part of basically saving history, albeit with minor damage, but since he doesn't do what no one in the world can do when Flynn is in the present, kill Flynn, he's perceived as a terrible character. The only difference I'm seeing is that Wyatt's perceived as pretty rather than sexy, because his character is supposed to be more macho. At this point, I'm concluding it's because Visnjic is about six inches taller. 

My issue with Wyatt is that his character was selected for the mission and built up as a certain type.  That type being, allegedly, the muscle and military skill of the operation.  And the actor they hired does not at all conform to that. In addition, he almost never gets a win.  What do the writers expect the audience to think? Let Wyatt get the drop on Flynn once and a while.

I am ok for now... with Flynn messing up because he is largely someone thrown into events. But he should soon figure out this plan is not working and stop and come up with something that will. And I truly don't see why he has to get rid of Rittenhouse to achieve change in his own life.  Can he got back in time and take his wife and daughter from the past into the present with this time machine?  Problem solved.

[vibeology]

2 hours ago, sjohnson said:

Yes, Flynn basically loses every week. Even if he might get a little something, he doesn't succeed in his planned major rewrites of history. But this doesn't damage the character in most people's eyes, I think because most people find Goran Visnjic sexy. Wyatt on the other hand is part of basically saving history, albeit with minor damage, but since he doesn't do what no one in the world can do when Flynn is in the present, kill Flynn, he's perceived as a terrible character. The only difference I'm seeing is that Wyatt's perceived as pretty rather than sexy, because his character is supposed to be more macho. At this point, I'm concluding it's because Visnjic is about six inches taller. 

And at this point also, I'm concluding the issue isn't going to die and it's going to pervade all commentary. Which is sort of a shame, the time travel stuff could be fun to talk about.

For me, they both have fairly clichéd backstories and neither has been all that successful at their goal but I have to spend more time with Wyatt so those things have more time to bug me. Yes Visnjic is, to me, much hotter but if these roles were reversed, I can't imagine finding Wyatt suddenly engaging. I don't hate Wyatt or anything and I get that part of making a TV show work is that the bad guy can't get killed week 2 but I do think the writing has done the clunkiest job with his story of the four characters we spend the bulk of our time with. We've had basically the same story about his wife told to us twice now, we learned nothing new the second time and its (and as a result he is) the least connected with the larger mystery.

[Netfoot]

11 hours ago, dr pepper said:

We didn't cover Watergate in any of my classes.

But certain events are so sweeping in their effect, it is difficult to see how anybody can be without at least a passing knowledge of what went on.  

I never studied Watergate at school, and wouldn't consider myself a scholar of the event.  But I've read enough books, seen enough movies and TV, heard enough conversations to know the basics.  Nixon, Watergate Hotel, spying on the opposition, Woodward/Redford and Bernstein/Hoffman, Deep Throat, trial, tapes, missing minutes, "I am not a crook", threat of impeachment, resignation.  Surely, everybody who doesn't live under a rock on Fernando de Noronha knows this?

It's like saying you never heard about the assassination of JFK.  Or asking who was MLK.  Or don't know what Neil Armstrong did.  What sort of Instagoogle Tweetface mind-numbed existence must you be living in?

[green]

11 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Speaking of which, so it looks like Lucy's father is actually Evil Limo Rittenhouse guy.  Hmm...  And Mason seems to be really reluctant in all of the scenes with Rufus and that guy, so I'm wondering if they have something over him and he isn't a true Team Rittenhouse.

Is Denise/Sakina Jaffery ever going to factor into this story more?  Because right now it really feels like a waste of her talents. 

Mason was shown as being scared of Rittenhouse in a couple of earlier episodes almost begging Rufus to not quit because Mason knew what would happen to him if he did.  He also indicated that Rittenhouse was controling him out of fear tyoo.

As for the Homeland Security lady she is officially the last to know there is a Rittenhouse and is the only one still in the dark.  She was there when Lucy first asked who Rittenhouse was and she said she had never heard of him/it in a way that said she never did to me unlike Mason's denial.

What I see for her future is that she will learn that the deputy head of Homelend Security -- the guy who came out to fire Wyatt in person instead of just sending a memo to her to do it -- is a Rittenhouse operative.  Because dramatically why would the writers have her not do that via orders from the top and send out another character to do it?

So once she belatedly learns something about Rittenhouse and it somehow ties in with the real reason Rittenhouse wants Wyatt removed from the team she will become part of the Larger Alliance of Strange People and Odd Balls and Guys Who Can't Shoot Straight vs the bad guy Rittenhouse Group that encapsulates all crazy Mason conspiracy theories into one with some Illuminati seasoning.  Cool.

4 hours ago, BooBear said:

I also never got past WW2. Though we spend forever on WWI.  I would have done better to stay home and watch the history channel. Which my sister did and got her GED.

This was a good episode because it shook up the pattern and I think they got new writers because since the castle episode everything has improved. My only quibble is that Flynn still seems stupid. Not only is he randomly picking things to change history which seems like it would be a strategy out of Mike the Plumber's big plan he has failed almost every time. Sad to say but he has to win one.  It might be better if he won one, got his wife and kids back, and gave them back their time machine and everyone just let sleeping dogs lie.  But at least here we got some explanation.

So they give out GEDs now if your answer to every history question on tests in "ancient aliens"?  (Sorry, I can't resist any chance to make a History Channel / Ancient Aliens joke).

And no they didn't get new writers.  The head writer/show runner had the whole season sketched out this way from the very start.  See the spoiler thread for more details.  Now that it is past tense I can say he said he didn't believe in leaving the audience hanging all season waiting for answers so put the first big reveal in the 6th episode (this one) from the start.

[morriss]

I feel sorry for Flynn.  He is not really a bad guy like Lucy, Rufus and Wyatt's bosses are making him out to be.    Thought Lucy being the side piece was quite funny....lol  

[blackwing]

Count me in among those who are not at all surprised that Rufus had never heard of Deep Throat.  I am a little older than Rufus and I am willing to bet that most people my age don't know anything about Watergate.  They know of it, and probably that it led to Nixon's resignation, but as far as details, I bet most people are fairly clueless.  As others have commented, many high school history classes are lucky to make it to World War II.

I liked that Lucy was mostly out of her element and I liked seeing Rufus taking the lead.  I don't mind Wyatt, I would agree he looks young to be in the position he is, but he's otherwise not so bad.

[Dowel Jones]

2 hours ago, green said:

So they give out GEDs now if your answer to every history question on tests in "ancient aliens"?  (Sorry, I can't resist any chance to make a History Channel / Ancient Aliens joke).

It was Hitler and the occult conspiracy.

[BooBear]

2 hours ago, green said:

And no they didn't get new writers.  The head writer/show runner had the whole season sketched out this way from the very start.  See the spoiler thread for more details.  Now that it is past tense I can say he said he didn't believe in leaving the audience hanging all season waiting for answers so put the first big reveal in the 6th episode (this one) from the start.

Oh like Lost.

[legaleagle53]

5 hours ago, BooBear said:

I am ok for now... with Flynn messing up because he is largely someone thrown into events. But he should soon figure out this plan is not working and stop and come up with something that will. And I truly don't see why he has to get rid of Rittenhouse to achieve change in his own life.  Can he got back in time and take his wife and daughter from the past into the present with this time machine?  Problem solved.

Nope.  No crossing your own timeline, remember?

4 hours ago, Netfoot said:

 What sort of Instagoogle Tweetface mind-numbed existence must you be living in?

I am SO stealing this for future use!  :)

[Clanstarling]

On 11/16/2016 at 10:40 AM, Dowel Jones said:

I did like the reaction of the lady outside the phone booth when Rufus said, "We're off to talk to Deep Throat."  She definitely recognized the reference.

 

On 11/16/2016 at 10:55 AM, vibeology said:

I thought the joke there was that she recognized the term from the porn movie and was shocked to hear it. They went back to June 20, 1972. Would anyone know about Deep Throat (the source) by that point?

The movie came out on June 12, 1972. So although she could have been reacting to that (which was my initial thought, knowing that for some reason it was a big hit with middle class married couples), the timing would be a little tight there. I think they made the comment in the show itself that Woodward and Bernstein hadn't met with Deep Throat at this point (though they did start meeting with him in June).

17 hours ago, orza said:

Exactly. No one wants to be that teacher who lost her job for talking about blow jobs during the history lesson.

Just wait until the Monica Lewinsky section of the lesson plan....now that's on the official historical record.

4 hours ago, Netfoot said:

Or don't know what Neil Armstrong did.

Oh, I bet there are plenty who don't know that one, sadly.

I enjoyed seeing at least two or three outfits that I actually wore back in 1972, and they didn't even look odd to me. :)

[legaleagle53]

1 hour ago, morriss said:

I feel sorry for Flynn.  He is not really a bad guy like Lucy, Rufus and Wyatt's bosses are making him out to be.    Thought Lucy being the side piece was quite funny....lol  

Yeah, the "WTF?" look she shot Rufus had me laughing out loud.

[wilnil]

I've got to go along with everyone who's said Flynn's plan is crazy -- if Rittenhouse is that entangled with U.S. history, eliminating it would surely change so much about the timeline that these people and institutions wouldn't even exist anymore, so Flynn would come back to a present where, say, the South Canadian Confederation government immediately arrested him for having a false ID (" 'Garcia Flynn'? There's no such person in our records.") and confiscated the time machine, with no Mason Industries around to claim it as their property.

(Editing to add: This wouldn't be the case so much with the Watergate or von Braun interventions, even if they were successful, but now he's going back to the French and Indian War, fer chrissakes! Damn, what if he accidentally gets George Washington killed?)

Edited November 17, 2016 by wilnil

[dubbel zout]

5 hours ago, Netfoot said:

Fernando de Noronha

I love him!

5 hours ago, Netfoot said:

Or don't know what Neil Armstrong did.

He helped fake the moon landing, duh.

[dargosmydaddy]

10 hours ago, Mrs OldManBalls said:

When Lucy was climbing in the window to rescue Wyatt, seeing her giant purse come into the room before anything else cracked me up. Might not have been intentional humour, but it worked.

I had the same reaction to Lucy flailing into the telephone booth that Rufus was in. I know it was supposed to be funny (Lucy making Rufus jump), but it was all the more hilarious because Lucy (or perhaps an overenthusiastic Abigail Spencer) kind of hit into the booth like a drunk bird.

[KaveDweller]

2 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

Just wait until the Monica Lewinsky section of the lesson plan....now that's on the official historical record.

Well if people don't get to Watergate in a chronological history, they'll never get to Clinton. History is not a priority to today's teachers, which is really scary for the future.

1 hour ago, wilnil said:

I've got to go along with everyone who's said Flynn's plan is crazy -- if Rittenhouse is that entangled with U.S. history, eliminating it would surely change so much about the timeline that these people and institutions wouldn't even exist anymore, so Flynn would come back to a present where, say, the South Canadian Confederation government immediately arrested him for having a false ID (" 'Garcia Flynn'? There's no such person in our records.") and confiscated the time machine, with no Mason Industries around to claim it as their property.

His plan does seem rather emotional. But there was a year between when his family died and when he stole the time machine, so he must have formed some plan in that time.

[possibilities]

If peopel aren't learning about Watergate or Neil Armstorng, I suppose it's too much to think they learn about the Iran-Contra scandal or Clarence Thomas/Anita Hill? In that case, I guess I have to have a much bigger gratitude level for even twisted crumbs of historical reference in my crazy time travel show.

[Shanna Marie]

I honestly don't remember whether or not we got to Watergate in high school history. I know we had the Colonial era to the Civil War in 8th grade, then did Reconstruction to the present in 11th grade. But in 11th grade our teacher was the head football coach, so his way of teaching was to tell us to read the chapter and then answer the questions at the end of the chapter while he read the sports section of the newspaper. I'm kind of a history nerd, so I read ahead and got through the whole book, and now I don't remember where the class actually stopped. And my dad used to teach military history in a university ROTC program, so history was just a part of fun at home. Then I went to journalism school, so we got into Watergate some there. I know a lot about Watergate, but I'm not clear how much I absorbed when it was going on and I was a small child (I remember watching Nixon's resignation but not really understanding anything other than it was a big deal and my parents telling me to be quiet while they watched), how much I picked up from talk at home, reading newspapers, reading ahead in the history book, or college.

But since Deep Throat's identity was recently outed and it all got back into the news again, wouldn't the concept be at least vaguely familiar? And there was a "Deep Throat" character on The X-Files, referring to that. I'd have thought that it was all part of a general vague cultural awareness, even if you didn't know details, and these days, you'd be more likely to think of Watergate than know it came from a movie.

[iMonrey]

Quote

Does Flynn know he has to go back to 1778? Maybe that's why he wanted to find Doc, because she knew when it was founded.

Hmm - good point. I guess we don't know how much he actually knows about Rittenhouse at this point. I forgot it was the Doc who told Lucy when Rittenhouse was founded, not Flynn.

Quote

Flynn specifically said he was trying to destroy the US because Rittenhouse is so entwined with the country. 

Actually, his response to Flynn was more along the lines of "collateral damage." I don't think his specific goal is to annihilate American history - he just wants to stop/destroy Rittenhouse, and if he screws up American history in the process, he doesn't care because it's worth the price to him.

Whatever little road map that Lucy's journal provides him must surely pinpoint specific dates and events that will harm Rittenhouse, specifically, rather than America in general, if he hopes to prevent Rittenhouse from murdering his wife and child.

Quote

If people aren't learning about Watergate or Neil Armstorng, I suppose it's too much to think they learn about the Iran-Contra scandal or Clarence Thomas/Anita Hill? In that case, I guess I have to have a much bigger gratitude level for even twisted crumbs of historical reference in my crazy time travel show.

The problem with history books and (many) history teachers is that too many of them seem to prioritize battles and wars.  I was never interested in history in school because it was nothing but rote memorization of this battle on this date, that battle on that date, this battle on this date, that battle on that date, etc. That was literally it. We had to memorize every little battle that took place during the civil war or the revolutionary war. There weren't interesting tidbits about people or scandals, it was just battle, date, battle, date, battle, date. 

I think a lot historians are just fascinated with battles and war and that's all they really want to teach because they think that's all that matters.

[shapeshifter]

I was living in Canada in a commune without running water or TV or radios or newspapers when Watergate broke. Somehow, somewhere I did hear about it after I came back to the States.

[snarktini]

On 11/17/2016 at 6:41 AM, Clanstarling said:

This feels like the whole "is it a white dress with gold stripes - or...) bit that went around the internet for awhile. To me it is clearly the same actor - but I've seen him in many roles, so I'm familiar. Just goes to show how different "threatening in a business suit and dark lighting" can be than "friendly in casual clothes in daylight"

 

Right? To me it was obviously the same guy, and I'm not even very good with faces! It helped that I expected it to be him. He got a lot of screen time, just as Lucy was looking for Mystery Dad.

Like the many other stories here, my AP US History class stopped at WWII plus a few days covering the timeline (wars, Presidents) of the next couple of decades, and that's it. Some of it is time, for sure. My teacher was big into the Civil War, that was our time suck. What I've also heard -- and it's a very compelling argument -- is that schools aren't in a hurry to get farther. WWII is the last war everyone agrees we were the good guys. History gets a lot more controversial especially once you hit the 60s and 70s because our parents/grandparents were alive then and may get pissed if that material is taught in ways that they disagree with. All of history is complicated and multi-sided, but the more time passes, a "consensus" version of events (sometimes that means sanitized) gets encoded in the books and there are fewer people alive to remember and disagree. The Vietnam War is a perfect example. Over time, secrets have been revealed and now we can all sides more clearly. But in 1990, when I was in AP History in a public school alongside peers whose parents served and/or protested, it would have been radioactive. 

My history education from the 50s-70s on came from my parents at the dinner table. Stories about Vietnam, Goldwater, Tricky Dick, Eisenhower. I never learned Deep Throat's name, though, at any point.

[Moose135]

2 hours ago, snarktini said:

Right? To me it was obviously the same guy, and I'm not even very good with faces! It helped that I expected it to be him. He got a lot of screen time, just as Lucy was looking for Mystery Dad.

I wasn't expecting him, but as soon as I saw him I realized it was the same guy.  Had Lucy seen him at some point, because from her reaction, it looked like she knew he was the bad guy, but I didn't remember if anyone on the team other than Rufus had met him.

I guess history was easier when I was growing up - there wasn't as much of it! ;-)

I was 12 when they caught the Watergate burglars, and remember joking about the news story.  I was getting ready to start high school after the summer when Nixon resigned, so I lived through all of that.  I don't remember history classes getting past WWII - in fact I'm not sure we even got that far, either in HS or college.  I did take a "Modern History" elective in college, but it was primarily focused on US politics in the first 30-40 years of 20th Century than anything else.