S01.E05: The Game Plan

[NutMeg]

Kevin's scenes were all good, but a little detail that stuck me me is how he was amazed at William's voice, I hope it comes to something. When my son was very young (3-4), he wanted to record voices, and I was amazed at the idea. Two years later, my dad died, and I wish I had a recording of his voice. I know, I know, why does this show bring back so many memories, right? The one that got to me was about the people who died and are in the painting (or are they? I may have already lost it at that point and just wanted them to be in that damn painting. Lost my younger brother when he was in his 20s and still sometimes "talk" to him, in an abstract sense, which will only make sense to those of you unfortunate enough to have lost a person that you loved).   

[PRgal]

Never, ever, ever pause ANYTHING live.  Not just games (especially playoffs/finals), but debates and even award shows.  Except, maybe, a kooky ABC musical (which usually sucks compared to a live stage production or the movie). 

[GodsBeloved]

11 hours ago, BuckeyeLou said:

I loved Kevin's scenes with William and also his scenes with his nieces, those little girls are so cute.

I LOVED when Annie said we're listening. She and Tess are beyond precious.

[GodsBeloved]

11 hours ago, pianogirl73 said:

I think that was supposed to be when Jack died because they showed the hat from the his great great? grandfather. 

Ah, that makes sense but then why wait until now to pack up things belonging to Jack? Ok. Now I'm confused LOL

[GodsBeloved]

11 hours ago, AuntieL said:

I just started watching this show last week and I thought I was sucked in then. Then I watch this week and Rebecca's friend is wearing the same Steeler hat my mother gave me 15 years ago that I still wear. Wow did they get the Pittsburgh steeler 70s/80s football scene right! I've lived in south Jersey for 30 years now and this took me right back home. 

The Steelers were my team back then and I was all giddy hearing Terry Bradshaw's name. Terrible Towels!!! Woohoo!!

Edited October 26, 2016 by GodsBeloved

[candall]

Nobody's more dedicated to "Alone Time" than I am.  (Even when I'm on trip with someone, it's understood that, sorry, I will need to be by myself for a bit, every single day.)  I've been a solo act my whole life--I need to replenish my mojo.

And yet, I still think you all are being too hard on Toby.  People said he was pushy when he arranged for her to sing, which turned out to be a positive thing for her.  People said he was overbearing when he wouldn't accept that their whole relationship, even the intimate moments, would come second to her brother calling and beckoning--but that wasn't a healthy behavior and we got that adjusted.

 

He made some mistakes with the football game--primarily pausing the live action (who does that?)--but is Kate not now in a much better place, with the dad-urn wearing a jaunty hat and her cuddled up on the couch and laughing with her boyfriend, than she has been--watching God knows how many football games alone, cradling her late father's cre-mains?

 

I don't see any "guilt tripping" or the "all about him" picture.  ("All about him" definitely serves Doritos and hot Rotel dip, not jicama.)  I see a guy who makes some blunders in spite of his good intentions, who keeps going because he's fallen in love with a woman who happens to be extremely neurotic.

[GodsBeloved]

What I found ironic about Toby this episode is he kept pushing Kate to watch the game with her then asked why she came over when she really didn't want to. 

[BusyOctober]

The Toby character is really getting unlikable.   I think the writers think they're being non-judgemental &  politically correct by showing the audience how 2 overweight people can find love! They are desirable!  They are able to have relationships!  Just like all the skinny, more telegenic people!  I find it condescending. 

I think they see Toby's unrelenting persistence as "proof" of his feelings for Kate.  What was their pitch in the writers room? "She's super fat, but he super likes her!  Look at all the stuff he does to show how into her he is!  Crafty stalker cards!  Kidnapping Whisking her off to the nursing home to sing against her will! Inserting himself in her private personal football tradition after being told repeatedly she wanted to be alone for one goddamned night!  Making fun of every meal she serves to show her how stupid it is for her to try to eat healthy/lose weight!  Invites himself to a fancy Hollywood party because God forbid she goes with her brother on a quasi work related event without him and his stupid fedora!  Get it?  She's FAT but he STILL likes her!  A lot...like so much, he never listens to her... because she doesn't really know her own feelings, cos duh, she's fat, so, duh, no self esteem! We don't know if he even has a job because he is constantly in her face!  Dude, that's love!  What?  No! Of course it doesn't matter that he's fat too...he's a GUY.  The weight isn't an issue for men on TV. They can choose to be with skinny OR fat girls.  Look at Kevin James...fat as fuck and both his TV wives are hot."

Other than Toby's behavior with Kate, I do really like this show and every other character.  I knew Jack was going to end up being dead long before the urn showed up, but I still was a little misty.  Randall, Beth, William and the girls need to be on for the full hour.  I love them all so much.  Still waiting for that cancer cure to be revealed next week so William will be around to voice the Owl in Pixar's next movie.

Edited October 26, 2016 by BusyOctober

[NutMeg]

Toby is mostly there for now to let us get insight into what made Kate and what makes her tick. Maybe that will change later now, but for now I see it as his main purpose on the show.

[GodsBeloved]

10 hours ago, Amethyst said:

I thought of a Jackson Pollock painting

Lawd you just took me back to Matty Saracen and FNL.

[RachelKM]

54 minutes ago, candall said:

Nobody's more dedicated to "Alone Time" than I am.  (Even when I'm on trip with someone, it's understood that, sorry, I will need to be by myself for a bit, every single day.)  I've been a solo act my whole life--I need to replenish my mojo.

And yet, I still think you all are being too hard on Toby.  People said he was pushy when he arranged for her to sing, which turned out to be a positive thing for her.  People said he was overbearing when he wouldn't accept that their whole relationship, even the intimate moments, would come second to her brother calling and beckoning--but that wasn't a healthy behavior and we got that adjusted.

 

He made some mistakes with the football game--primarily pausing the live action (who does that?)--but is Kate not now in a much better place, with the dad-urn wearing a jaunty hat and her cuddled up on the couch and laughing with her boyfriend, than she has been--watching God knows how many football games alone, cradling her late father's cre-mains?

I am also very big into alone time and I also take breaks from people during vacations. But to me, this wasn't about "alone time" as much as it was a specific thing that was her ritual.  She didn't describe it as "alone time"; she described it as "a thing she does alone."  It was clearly important to her.  I've actually been pretty Toby neutral and trending positive.  He annoyed me in the pilot, was okay in the next episode, I sort of liked the Kate Day with the signing as it really showed he paid attention to what she says and incorporated it even though I thought it was too much, and I was down right on his side last week.

But this week, he was an ass.  He begged her to come to his house.  Then he invited a third person without telling her, when she made it clear this is a thing she does alone and she's tentatively including him.  And then he pauses it. And THEN he followed her home and had the gall to ask why she agreed to come then.  WTF?  

As for whether Kate is better off now including Toby rather than watching with her dad?  Maybe.  But that actually makes me resent it more because it feels like Toby's asshattery was rewarded both in-show and in the meta sense since it appears the show wants me to see it as a positive too.  I really don't think they get how pushy Toby comes across and tone deaf to boundaries. He should have asked why it was important to her and thereafter maybe asked if he could join her ritual.  That would have gotten them to the same place without his looking like an obtuse, pushy jerk. 

2 hours ago, luna1122 said:

Yeah, Toby definitely lost any good will he'd gained for me last week with this episode. He is so pushy and controlling and needy and annoying. I don't think he's a bad guy, but he definitely has boundary issues that would be a deal breaker for me.

I am sad about Jack, but like most everyone else, glad that he's not an absentee dad or in terrible health or something. We still don't know the story of how Rebecca and Miguel got together or when, I suppose there still could have been infidelity somewhere, but I do hope not. I'm very curious what happened to Miguel's wife, and also we now know there is extended family somewhere as well--Miguel's kids are the triplets' step siblings.

Both Jack and Beth annoyed me last nite, picking inopportune times to have BIG conversations. A bar in the middle of a super bowl game, AFTER you're married, is not the time to talk about having babies. In front of your uncomfortable friends, no less. I wanted to smack him. I never wanted kids, so I felt for Rebecca and tho she said she imagined them with children, it felt like a compromise she wasn't sure of. That's a big compromise. And Beth...couldn't have waited one more day to have the 'maybe i'm knocked up' convo with Randall? She couldn't have just enjoyed the gorgeous hotel room and had some shower sex with her hubby? I get it, she was freaking out and not feeling great. I get it. But I still felt bad for poor Randall and his dreams of one luxurious, kid free night.

I love that we got more insight into Kevin too. He hides his self doubt and insecurities with his good looks and inappropriate humor and superficial glibness. The dining room table scene was hilarious. I love his dynamic with William. His speechifying over his chaotic looking Pollack painting at the end got schmaltzy and overwrought, but that's this show, in general. I still really like it.

I also do think we got a flash forward with William's death, and that he's not gone yet.

Some of the questions about 'would this have happened all the way back then?'--meaning the late 70s, early to mid 80s--are making me feel really really old. Yes, we had sunscreen and interracial couples back then.

I agree as to Jack.  It was not only an unfair time to insist to have the conversation to Rebecca, but it was flat out rude to their friends.  Setting aside the fact that this is a conversation to be had before you get married, that is not a conversation you have in front of your friends, let alone at a super bowl party at a bar.   I definitely felt for Rebecca though.  It felt like they sort of had discussed it, obliquely, in the sense that it didn't seem like news that they both had difficult childhoods and Rebecca had likely said stuff that indicated her feelings, but Jack never thought she was serious... which I guess in the end, she wasn't.  Or maybe you're right that it was a compromise. 

I disagree about Beth, however.  I don't really think she could have genuinely participated in Randall's night of abandon and then told him.  She was freaking out and couldn't just put that aside so he could have his SEX! ROOM SERVICE! ROBES! Night.  She was supposed to participate in this night of wild crazy adult fun and she was stressed out of her mind and needed support. Beth looked ambivalent from the moment Randall said they'd take the room, but I think tried to go forward with the romantic night. Once they got to the room, though, Randall was planning a night of debauchery and she just couldn't do it.

I think someone above thought that it was super bowl in the present day portion of the episode.  It almost definitely was not.  I think it was just a Sunday football game from what I can tell.  It looked like the Steelers were playing the Sunday Night game (which would be a reason a non-football fanatic like Toby in LA would have a Steelers game available). It appears to be mid or late fall in the Big Three's present day based on clothes and scenery. (Which also works with the story that Kate/Kev were conceived at a super bowl party since that would have been in January making their birthday early/mid fall.) That said, every game is important to a serious fan.  I would be PISSED if someone paused my game at all, let alone to tell a totally unrelated story.

Edited October 26, 2016 by RachelKM

[Indy]

On 10/26/2016 at 1:33 AM, photo fox said:

Do people really tell their kids exactly when and where they were conceived? And how would they know for sure, unless they were almost never having sex?  

Sometimes, especially when your mother is an over-sharer.  According to her, I was the result of some action in a game room of a bar my parents frequented. A bar I myself have frequented. This is information I never needed.

On 10/26/2016 at 9:49 AM, AzraelKay said:

fyi, for those wondering about William's status after last night, This is what creater Dan Fogelman said in an interview:

 "The William part of it is meant to be this almost metaphysical glimpse at a hypothetical future. Ron Cephas Jones, the actor, is very much alive in episode 6, for instance, in present day. But we have this ominous thing looming in some kind of distant or near-distant future."

So he's not dead yet, but doesn't sound like William will have a very long future on this show.  Of course, it depends on how much "time" passes for Season 1.  So far, it's apparently only been a couple of weeks...

Good! I was prepared for dead Jack but I was not prepared for the Wise Owl do die just yet.  It didn't occur to me that we were doing flash-forwards (which, given the "Lost" comparison the creators used early on, should not be a surprise) so I figured this was a sly way to say William had died.  I love the William so I'm gad we get him for at least another episode. And I know I'll cry again when he dies for real. 

I'm glad that Randall and Beth aren't having another baby. Too much happening in the show for there to be a baby. 

I still hate Toby, and my hate grows more and more each episode. He has no boundaries and he's just so damned creepy.  Kate needs to move to NY and lose him. 

Edited October 28, 2016 by Indy

[candall]

4 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

As for whether Kate is better off now, including Toby, rather than watching with her dad?  Maybe.  But that actually makes me resent it more because it feels like Toby's asshattery was rewarded both in-show and in the meta sense since it appears the show wants me to see it as a positive too.  I really don't think they get how pushy Toby comes across and tone deaf to boundaries. He should have asked why it was important to her and there after maybe asked if he could join her ritual.  That would have gotten them to the same place without his looking like an obtuse, pushy jerk. 

Okay, I can meet you in the middle on this.

Before I read all the posts, my comment was going to be (a longer version of):  Good Lord, everyone in this show really needs to brush up on the communication skills!

[Trillian]

I'm going to defend Toby (whom, I will admit, I do rather like), because I think this plot line is where the show gets a little too contrived in the name of having a twist at the end.  Because, basically, I don't understand why she kept her father's death from him.  Why would that be a big secret worthy of the dramatic reveal - except for the fact that the writers wanted a big reveal?

In real life, she could've, and should've and (I think) would've, said "I used to watch the games with my father, and, since he died, I like to watch alone because [pick one or find another]: I feel like we're still watching together/I'm honouring his memory/I find it depressing that he's not with me".  She could even have added "I don't even let Kevin join me for games" and that would've stopped him cold.  And THEN, if he kept at it, he could be declared to be an ass.  

I find it a little bizarre that it had never come up in the first place that her dad is dead. These two are dating and not just f-buddies.  He had already told her he had been married before and he's met her brother, and she's met his aunt, so family talk must have come up (they must occasionally talk about something other than their weight, don't they?).  But, even if it hadn't,  it makes no sense that she wouldn't have given it as the reason for not watching with him because having a deceased parent is not a deep dark secret to which adults don't like to admit in public.

So, I blame the writers and not Toby (as if Toby has an existence independent of the writers! but, you know what I mean - I hope).  If they were going to have her act so weird about not telling him, they had to have him act so weird about getting it out of her.  And that contrivance disappointed me a little, since I otherwise pretty much worship the ground this show walks on.

[3girlsforus]

I realize that it had to be this way for the "big reveal" that Jack is dead, but I am the only one who thought it was odd that Toby didn't know that Kate's dad was dead? That seems like normal early relationship conversation, especially with everything they dealt with in terms of Kevin. You'd think since he met her brother and he knows Kevin was moving near her other brother, the 'well where are your parents' question would have been a natural progression.

It just felt contrived. I know - I was supposed to be all crying and emotional. 

[RachelKM]

6 hours ago, 3girlsforus said:

I realize that it had to be this way for the "big reveal" that Jack is dead, but I am the only one who thought it was odd that Toby didn't know that Kate's dad was dead? That seems like normal early relationship conversation, especially with everything they dealt with in terms of Kevin. You'd think since he met her brother and he knows Kevin was moving near her other brother, the 'well where are your parents' question would have been a natural progression.

It just felt contrived. I know - I was supposed to be all crying and emotional. 

I did find it odd and utterly unnecessary to the plot.  Kate didn't mention her dad as why she watched alone at the beginning episode.  I wasn't sure it wasn't because she loud and rowdy and doesn't like an audience or that she just takes it seriously and hates people interrupting.  And the conversation at the end happened so quickly, she could have easily just said "I watch with my dad" and Toby could have looked confused (because he was aware her father is dead) and then noticed the urn which Kate could have confirmed.  It would have been a reveal to the audience that Jack was dead, but still shown that Toby, her boyfriend of several weeks who has met her brother, is aware her father is no longer alive.

Edited October 26, 2016 by RachelKM

[random chance]

In addition to seeming contrived, I have to say, if someone I was dating liked to watch a football game with their dad's urn -- dressed in a hat, yet -- I think I would be easing on down the road. Although in this case I would have already run off after they stalked my ex.

[ShadowFacts]

40 minutes ago, Indy said:

Good! I was prepared for dead Jack but I was not prepared for the Wise Owl do die just yet.  It didn't occur to me that we were doing flash-forwards (which, given the "Lost" comparison the creators used early on, should not be a surprise) so I figured this was a sly way to say William had died.  I love the William so I'm gad we get him for at least another episode. And I know I'll cry again when he dies for real. 

I did not know about the 'Lost' comparison.  I really hope they don't go with sideways or alt-verse flashes.  That would be confuzzling. 

As long as Toby is a hot topic in this episode thread, my two cents is that I don't care for him as a plot device to reveal things about Kate, it just doesn't work for me.  I want something other than their interactions to be the way we know the character of the sister and daughter in this "us".  As BusyOctober said above, it's kind of condescending to have her defined mostly by her relationship to him.  Before Kevin moved, she was too defined by her attachment to him.  Now it seems Toby is stepping into that role, even though Kate resisted his attempts at the beginning of the episode.  I just don't care for the direction her character seems to be going. 

[taragel]

I wish I liked the actual writing on this show a bit more. (I too have yet to find it nearly as endearing or heartstring-tugging as Parenthood was so consistently.)

I like all the characters but agree on the contrivance for maximum manipulation, namely this "big reveal" on Jack. It was really so unnecessary. I thought they had changed the original script with the lines about him being dead because they changed their mind and wanted some sort of Milo presence in the present. But they didn't, so there was really no need to draw it out like that because any other conclusion would have been either hard to believe (divorce --after this great love story they're building?, stuck in some kind of home -- but no one ever calls or visits him?) or turn Rebecca into a bit of a villain (she cheated on him and left him for his best friend!, he's got some sort of life-altering chronic issue/disease and she's abandoned him!). 

Plus....Kevin. (I hope there's an episode titled "We Need to Talk About Kevin" at some point.) I don't quite get why he's so socially awkward. Vulnerable about not being loved enough and attention-needing, I get. The selfishness/myopicness I definitely get. But he's also really, really awkward. All of his "jokes" that were like lead anvils, zero ability to read a room and pick up on cues of how others feel toward him.... those don't seem like traits that a successful young actor would have in Hollywood. He doesn't seem to have any suaveness or charm or perception--and he would totally need that. I get that he's been cast for his body (and now Manny fame) mostly, but those guys usually also have some charisma. Something just doesn't jibe with his personality and his looks/success to me. This guy should have Toby's personality, honestly. (And maybe Toby should have his.) The painting explanation (and hey, if you can do abstract art like that--get yourself an Etsy store, Manny!) was good in theory but didn't really move me because of how heavy handed it was. In fact, I think everything about Kevin feels very flat and heavy-handed. I'd like them to give him much more subtlety.

I wondered if Justin (whom I loved as Oliver Queen on Smallville and do believe is a good actor and totally can pull off the hot, wealthy playboy with a vulnerable side thing) was just having a hard time with the character, but no, I think Kevin is just written kind of oddly, honestly. 

Toby...He's totally overbearing and that does seem to be the whole point of him--to push Kate out of her shell. (The show definitely thinks this is a "good thing" though and are totally not cognizant of how NiceGuyTM and inappropriate this behavior truly is.) But there was one scene last episode when he was talking about his ex-wife's betrayal that was really good--and I think there's way more of that to come. He totally covers with using humor and boisterousness--I'll be glad when they strip some of those layers away and he doesn't feel like he alway has to be "performing" for Kate. I also read somewhere that he's "interested in showbusiness", so I wonderered if he was maybe a stand-up comedian or an aspiring actor (there were hints that it could go that way in the Hollywood party episode.)

They're clearly trying to come up with different obstacles for this love story in every episode, but the cumulative effect is just making me think that Toby and Kate just are not really right for each other. They're just too different. I'd like to see them in agreement on something instead of at odds all the time so this relationship can seem to work for once, especially if we're saddled with it long-term.

Randall and Beth continue to be kind of too perfect for words.

I didn't even get that Randall was packing up William's things in that flash-forward scene. Seemed unnecessary honestly.

Forgot to say: I love Rebecca. A lot. And Jack is great too, mostly because he loves her and the kids so much, but I already feel like he can be kind of exhausting. With his moods. Having a pity party in a bar on Superbowl Sunday because your wife made an offhanded comment about not wanting kids that has clearly been a running inside joke between the two of you? Not a good look, Jack.

Edited October 26, 2016 by taragel

[Indy]

Just now, ShadowFacts said:

I did not know about the 'Lost' comparison.  I really hope they don't go with sideways or alt-verse flashes.  That would be confuzzling.  

I think it was used because of the multiple time periods being shown in the same episode, and the past being used to reveal things about the characters we are learning about in present day. Not because there will be alternative universes and hatches and stuff. Or at least I hope not.  If suddenly there are polar bears in this show, I am out.  OUT. 

[luna1122]

I wouldn't run off from someone who had a ritual of watching the games with their dad, even dead dad in a hat wearing urn. I'd maybe find that a little endearing. I would have run off after the ex-spouse stalking. But I also would have run away screaming from someone who won't take no for an answer and who keeps pushing boundaries in ways that imply that my norm is weird or unappealing--as in, it's crazy to want to be alone one damn night of the week.  Clearly, we all have different deal breakers, and they're very amusing and interesting to read.

I do agree Toby not knowing about Jack being dead is a contrivance, one which will probably reoccur on this show as it strains to keep the 'twists' coming. I do like the twists, but it might lead to too many inorganic storylines and wtf moments.

1 hour ago, RachelKM said:

 

I disagree about Beth, however.  I don't really think she could have genuinely participated in Randall's night of abandon and then told him.  She was freaking out and couldn't just put that aside so he could have his SEX! ROOM SERVICE! ROBES! Night.  She was supposed to participate in this night of wild crazy adult fun and she was stressed out of her mind and needed support. Beth looked ambivalent from the moment Randall said they'd take the room, but I think tried to go forward with the romantic night. Once they got to the room, though, Randall was planning a night of debauchery and she just couldn't do it.

 

I knew i'd get disagreement about Beth. Like I said, I get it. I just would have tried to hold out for one more day so we could have a nice night, I think. Or not, who knows? I just felt bad for hopeful, excited-about-shower-sex-burger-in-bed-eating- and  Florence-Foster-Jenkins watching Randall.

Quote

Plus....Kevin. (I hope there's an episode titled "We Need to Talk About Kevin" at some point.) I don't quite get why he's so socially awkward. Vulnerable about not being loved enough and attention-needing, I get. The selfishness/myopicness I definitely get. But he's also really, really awkward. All of his "jokes" that were like lead anvils, zero ability to read a room and pick up on cues of how others feel toward him.... those don't seem like traits that a successful young actor would have in Hollywood. He doesn't seem to have any suaveness or charm or perception--and he would totally need that. I get that he's been cast for his body (and now Manny fame) mostly, but those guys usually also have some charisma. Something just doesn't jibe with his personality and his looks/success to me. This guy should have Toby's personality, honestly. (And maybe Toby should have his.) The painting explanation (and hey, if you can do abstract art like that--get yourself an Etsy store, Manny!) was good in theory but didn't really move me because of how heavy handed it was. In fact, I think everything about Kevin feels very flat and heavy-handed. I'd like them to give him much more subtlety

I love the 'we need to talk about Kevin' idea! And he is insecure and inappropriately jokey. But I also think he's charming and funny and has tons of charisma.  Or...maybe I just think that cuz he's so handsome, but I also think that a lot of folks would also think that. Being hot covers a multitude of sins, unfortunately, or fortunately, however you may look at it.

Edited October 26, 2016 by luna1122

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Re: Kevin's terrible jokes -  I think it's a combination of things. First, he gets jokier when he's in situations where he's less comfortable. He act normal around Kate, and I think that's because he knows he can be himself around her. But when you see him in situations where he's feeling insecure or unsure of himself, he starts making lame jokes.  I can sympathize with that because I know I've been in similar situations where the stupidest things came out of my mouth because I was nervous or feeling awkward (and of course the word vomit just made me feel even more awkward and nervous).  Yes, you would think that anyone who is even a little bit successful in Hollywood would know how to read a room, joke appropriately, and generally be less awkward, but you also have to remember that being in show business means you're often surrounded by yes men and people with ulterior motives so they aren't going to say, "Gawd, what is wrong with you? Chill the fuck out!" For the record, I thought his joke about giving the kids sambuca and ambien was funny!

[DrSpaceman73]

2 hours ago, PRgal said:

Never, ever, ever pause ANYTHING live.  Not just games (especially playoffs/finals), but debates and even award shows.  Except, maybe, a kooky ABC musical (which usually sucks compared to a live stage production or the movie). 

Oh My God, I would have ripped Toby's head off had he done that in the middle of a football game. 

Really liked the speech at the end about life, death, ones legacy.  Loved the mostly gold and black (steelers colors) being show in the picture, even though I am not a Steelers fan. 

Not surprised about the dad being dead.

So those two were quite the alcoholics before the kids were born, huh?  Nothing like a shot in the morning.  I am a bit more sympathetic now to Jack in episode two, knowing it was not just him being a heavy drinker after the kids were born.  It was both of them before they were born.  And there was only about a year, year and a half between this episode and episode two when he stops drinking.  Gives it some perspective. 

I am just like Kate with football and the NFL.  I don't want other things going on, I am watching the game.  Its sacred time, about the only time all week I carve out 3 hours, the best I can anymore to watch with no distractions. 

[candall]

Not to mention Toby probably would have noticed the large shiny Chekov's Urn which apparently has been sitting on her mantel all this time.

[DrSpaceman73]

Quote

I didn't even get that Randall was packing up William's things in that flash-forward scene. Seemed unnecessary honestly.

I was confused about this, that makes sense now.  I was wondering if he died the next day, given that speech, and the ashes of Jack being shown.  A flash forward makes more sense. 

 

And Toby and Kate have not been together that long.  Given that last week she learned about his ex and many details she did not know before, though she was aware he was married, that's about it, I can see him not knowing the dad is dead. 

With his personality though I would think he sees that urn and would make some joke or comment asking who is in the urn as soon as he sees it in her place

Edited October 26, 2016 by DrSpaceman73

[truebluesmoky]

I just went back and watched it to be sure... in the football game scene with Jack, Rebecca, and The Big Three, when they are celebrating, Randall runs to Rebecca to hug her. Kevin celebrates on his own for a few seconds, then he joins Randall and Rebecca's hug, and Rebecca welcomes him in. I thought it was a nice moment for them as a family, so I just wanted it "on the record."

[DearEvette]

2 hours ago, GodsBeloved said:

I LOVED when Annie said we're listening. She and Tess are beyond precious.

Not only that,  but her face when she said "Hold up, what is this play even about?"  Her face told me that she was not impressed with what she was hearing so far.

I have to say I was a bit nervous when he was running lines with the girls, I hoped the play had a PG-rating. LOL.

Just now, DrSpaceman73 said:

I was confused about this, that makes sense now.  I was wondering if he died the next day, given that speech, and the ashes of Jack being shown.  A flash forward makes more sense. 

I don't think it was supposed to be the next day.  I think it was just supposed to show that life goes on, past , present, future, people live, affect each other and die.  The only person in the girls lives that they know who will die imminently is William, since he is terminal.  So it made sense given that it was woven into Kevin's painting speech.

[Ms Blue Jay]

15 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I am in the camp where like Kate, Toby is an imperfect character who make mistakes and can be liked anyway. 

For me they're not mistakes but his whole personality.

I have just not ever been a fan of Toby's.  I can't believe it's the same actor who played Benny in Stranger Things because I really liked him as Benny and was even attracted to him, which is so hard to believe against how I see Toby.  Pretty good acting.

Edited October 26, 2016 by Ms Blue Jay

[kris4n6]

10 minutes ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

So those two were quite the alcoholics before the kids were born, huh?  Nothing like a shot in the morning.  I am a bit more sympathetic now to Jack in episode two, knowing it was not just him being a heavy drinker after the kids were born.  It was both of them before they were born.  And there was only about a year, year and a half between this episode and episode two when he stops drinking.  Gives it some perspective. 

The kids were 8 in the episode where he quit drinking, so around 9 years or so between these two episodes.

I could forgive Toby pausing the game if he had waited for a commercial.  Or at least for the freaking end of the play!!!  Roethisberger had just thrown a pass, why the hell pause it at that exact moment for some stupid story???

I have a friend that pauses games all the time - but more she'll pause it at the beginning while we're getting food and such ready and then we can ffwd commercials.  Which is usually ok (except for when she decides to check her fantasy league in the middle, or during the Super Bowl when we all overrode her objections and there was no pausing allowed).

[GodsBeloved]

12 minutes ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

And Toby and Kate have not been together that long.  Given that last week she learned about his ex and many details she did not know before, though she was aware he was married, that's about it, I can see him not knowing the dad is dead. 

Kate knew Toby was married prior to last week.

[Ms Blue Jay]

14 hours ago, AuntieL said:

When Toby paused the game I was all "Dude!  Have you never met a football fan before?" 

It's not just football.   It reminded me of watching the final season of Friends surrounded by inconsiderate college roommates.

This is obvious and will probably make me sound silly, but Kevin's painting was also a metaphor for the show and how the show presents itself, sees itself and its characters: "This is Us".

Edited October 26, 2016 by Ms Blue Jay

[RachelKM]

1 hour ago, luna1122 said:

I knew i'd get disagreement about Beth. Like I said, I get it. I just would have tried to hold out for one more day so we could have a nice night, I think. Or not, who knows? I just felt bad for hopeful, excited-about-shower-sex-burger-in-bed-eating- and  Florence-Foster-Jenkins watching Randall.

I felt bad for Randall too.  I just don't know what else Beth was to do.  She didn't feel well and she was stressed and don't see how she could have reasonably faked it through the night Randall was describing under that circumstance.  I think she was prepared to have a romantic night with him and then tell him later, but he was planning a full boogity sexy wild vacation night.   Which I would be all for and she probably would too if she wasn't so stressed out.  I just don't think she could have reasonably participated in what Randall was describing in the emotional state she was in.   I think she just hit a wall.  But even if she hadn't told him and asked for a quieter evening it still would have rained on his parade.  It sucks for Randall and I feel for him, but I can't imagine Beth had many options.  I actually like that rather than try to play along unsuccessfully, they have the type of relationship where she just tells him why she cannot go all in tonight and they deal with it together. 

Edited October 26, 2016 by RachelKM

[Neurochick]

I didn't like it when Toby paused the football game; that just isn't done.

I don't think Toby is evil or horrible, his boundaries are just different.  People don't always have the same types of boundaries, some are lower than others.  In some homes, people talk while watching TV, in others they don't; neither way is wrong, just not the way YOU might do things.  I don't think Toby gives off a stalkerish vibe or anything sinister, his boundaries are just different.  That doesn't mean Kate should date him though; if someone can't respect your boundaries, that can break a relationship.

I kind of knew Jack was dead as soon as I saw Rebecca wearing the necklace he gave her.

I think it is interesting that out of the three, it is Randall, who has a similar type relationship with his wife that Jack had with Rebecca.  Randall and Beth reminded me a lot of Jack and Rebecca; the former went from really not wanting another baby, to thinking that maybe it wouldn't be so bad, and the latter started out with Rebecca not wanting children, and then realizing that maybe she did want children.  What I noticed is that both of these couples talked it out together.  I think Randall learned a lot about relationships by watching Jack and Rebecca.

[callmebetty]

28 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Re: Kevin's terrible jokes -  I think it's a combination of things. First, he gets jokier when he's in situations where he's less comfortable. He act normal around Kate, and I think that's because he knows he can be himself around her. But when you see him in situations where he's feeling insecure or unsure of himself, he starts making lame jokes.  I can sympathize with that because I know I've been in similar situations where the stupidest things came out of my mouth because I was nervous or feeling awkward (and of course the word vomit just made me feel even more awkward and nervous).  Yes, you would think that anyone who is even a little bit successful in Hollywood would know how to read a room, joke appropriately, and generally be less awkward, but you also have to remember that being in show business means you're often surrounded by yes men and people with ulterior motives so they aren't going to say, "Gawd, what is wrong with you? Chill the fuck out!" For the record, I thought his joke about giving the kids sambuca and ambien was funny!

Thank you. you put it better than I would have .  I'm the same way. I tell or say really bad "jokes" or am sarcastic and it's either cricket sounds or taken wrong . My sister on the other hand has it down pat and just is smooth in situations . 

I like Kevin and I'm glad we're getting out see more of his personality . I loved William and him together and like the fact he just hung with him no awkwardness even though this was his brothers biological father.

This show has got me. And like Parenthood , I know there will be episodes that I'll piss me off and I'll think about quitting it, I won't I'll stick with it til the bitter end. Because the all actors are just that good and I want to see what happens . 

[Lady Calypso]

1 hour ago, taragel said:

Plus....Kevin. (I hope there's an episode titled "We Need to Talk About Kevin" at some point.) I don't quite get why he's so socially awkward. Vulnerable about not being loved enough and attention-needing, I get. The selfishness/myopicness I definitely get. But he's also really, really awkward. All of his "jokes" that were like lead anvils, zero ability to read a room and pick up on cues of how others feel toward him.... those don't seem like traits that a successful young actor would have in Hollywood. He doesn't seem to have any suaveness or charm or perception--and he would totally need that. I get that he's been cast for his body (and now Manny fame) mostly, but those guys usually also have some charisma. Something just doesn't jibe with his personality and his looks/success to me. This guy should have Toby's personality, honestly. (And maybe Toby should have his.) The painting explanation (and hey, if you can do abstract art like that--get yourself an Etsy store, Manny!) was good in theory but didn't really move me because of how heavy handed it was. In fact, I think everything about Kevin feels very flat and heavy-handed. I'd like them to give him much more subtlety.

 

 I actually like that Kevin's so socially awkward and Toby's extremely confident with a side of jerk to him. I think actors are perceived to be confident and all that, but I've heard of several who are awkward in real life. We don't know when or why Kevin got into acting, but acting is being able to be a different person. Plus, it gives Kevin a lot more layers to work with. He can be more relatable, which is good. They are giving Kevin more time to be fleshed out and his journey will definitely annoy some because of how long it might take and how subtle it is, but I'm in for now. At least, I think his story is more subtle than Kate's or Randall's.

37 minutes ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

I was confused about this, that makes sense now.  I was wondering if he died the next day, given that speech, and the ashes of Jack being shown.  A flash forward makes more sense. 

I rewatched and if you listen to the dialogue during that scene, it's Kevin talking about the future, "years from now" and death, so it definitely is telling the audience that this is a flashforward. I didn't pick that up on the first watch. 

[Tiger]

I really want flashbacks to when Jack & Rebecca and Randall & Beth, respectively,

 first met and started dating, their weddings, etc., before the show goes on too long and the actors cant believably play twentysomethings even with a soft focus lens, make-up and strstegic lighting.  

51 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Re: Kevin's terrible jokes -  I think it's a combination of things. First, he gets jokier when he's in situations where he's less comfortable. He act normal around Kate, and I think that's because he knows he can be himself around her. But when you see him in situations where he's feeling insecure or unsure of himself, he starts making lame jokes.  I can sympathize with that because I know I've been in similar situations where the stupidest things came out of my mouth because I was nervous or feeling awkward (and of course the word vomit just made me feel even more awkward and nervous).  Yes, you would think that anyone who is even a little bit successful in Hollywood would know how to read a room, joke appropriately, and generally be less awkward, but you also have to remember that being in show business means you're often surrounded by yes men and people with ulterior motives so they aren't going to say, "Gawd, what is wrong with you? Chill the fuck out!" For the record, I thought his joke about giving the kids sambuca and ambien was funny!

I love that the show has given Kevin this personality because so many sucxessful and/or good looking people are awkward as fuck in social situations.  

[Ms Blue Jay]

4 hours ago, deaja said:

I assumed Jack was dead, but still felt gut punched. I do wonder if Miguel and his wife divorced or if she's dead too.

Oh no.  What if Jack and Miguel's wife were in a horrible accident together.  

[Trillian]

6 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

I don't think Toby is evil or horrible, his boundaries are just different.  People don't always have the same types of boundaries, some are lower than others.  In some homes, people talk while watching TV, in others they don't; neither way is wrong, just not the way YOU might do things.  I don't think Toby gives off a stalkerish vibe or anything sinister, his boundaries are just different.  That doesn't mean Kate should date him though; if someone can't respect your boundaries, that can break a relationship.

This! I was raised in a home where everyone talked through tv shows.  I didn't even realize this wasn't universally done until I got married to someone who believes tv should be watched in deep meditative silence.  And my husband didn't realize that I wasn't being rude until my sister was over to watch an important sports match in which we were all intensely interested   - and she and I talked throughout, driving him nuts.

It's the same with the whole dropping in unannounced thing of the last few episodes. When I was growing up, barely a week went by without someone in the extended family dropping in on another member of the family. And, while we have grown out of the habit in favour of the more reserved North-American way of doing things, we still will exclaim "why didn't you drop by" upon hearing a family member or close friend was within a 10 km radius and didn't do so.  On the other hand, I don't see my husband's family unless one of us has practically issued an engraved invitation. Different strokes.

[meep.meep]

12 hours ago, bybrandy said:

My theory is Kevin is all, "Um, guys, this house is huge...   There has got to be more than three bedrooms" and then he goes off opening doors until he finds a guest room or three that Randall and Beth have forgotten about.   William never did that because he's too polite to go opening closed doors in other peoples houses.   But Kevin?  He's a door opener.

My theory was the sofa, but I like yours better.

46 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

I don't think it was supposed to be the next day.  I think it was just supposed to show that life goes on, past , present, future, people live, affect each other and die.  The only person in the girls lives that they know who will die imminently is William, since he is terminal.  So it made sense given that it was woven into Kevin's painting speech.

In Kevin's defense, the girls are 10ish and William is 75ish.  Even if he didn't have cancer, he's likely to die fairly soon.  And *everyone* is going to die.  But Kevin's painting speech was a great way to tie everything  together.

[chocolatine]

23 minutes ago, meep.meep said:

My theory was the sofa, but I like yours better.

In Kevin's defense, the girls are 10ish and William is 75ish.  Even if he didn't have cancer, he's likely to die fairly soon.  And *everyone* is going to die.  But Kevin's painting speech was a great way to tie everything  together.

William has to be much younger than 75. That would have put him at 39 when Randall was born, but in the flashbacks he looked like he was in his 20s. He's probably in his early or mid 60s, he just looks rough because of his cancer and past drug use.

[Schweedie]

23 minutes ago, Tiger said:

I really want flashbacks to when Jack & Rebecca and Randall & Beth, respectively, first met and started dating, their weddings, etc., before the show goes on too long and the actors cant believably play twentysomethings even with a soft focus lens, make-up and strstegic lighting.  

Same, but I also feel this way about wishing for scenes with older Jack with our adult Randall, Kate and Kevin. Maybe we're already past the point where that would work given that I took it Jack died in 2005, but still.

I love Kevin being awkward. I got the impression that his agent saw him as a project and sort of steered him through to becoming famous, keeping his awkward side in check, but if he's left to deal with stuff on his own and he's unprepared? Awkward it is.

[Neurochick]

33 minutes ago, Trillian said:

This! I was raised in a home where everyone talked through tv shows.  I didn't even realize this wasn't universally done until I got married to someone who believes tv should be watched in deep meditative silence.  And my husband didn't realize that I wasn't being rude until my sister was over to watch an important sports match in which we were all intensely interested   - and she and I talked throughout, driving him nuts.

It's the same with the whole dropping in unannounced thing of the last few episodes. When I was growing up, barely a week went by without someone in the extended family dropping in on another member of the family. And, while we have grown out of the habit in favour of the more reserved North-American way of doing things, we still will exclaim "why didn't you drop by" upon hearing a family member or close friend was within a 10 km radius and didn't do so.  On the other hand, I don't see my husband's family unless one of us has practically issued an engraved invitation. Different strokes.

Thank you for this, I thought I was watching a different show.  I just don't see Toby as bad as most folks do.  He and Kate just have two different styles.

[chocolatine]

6 minutes ago, Schweedie said:

Same, but I also feel this way about wishing for scenes with older Jack with our adult Randall, Kate and Kevin. Maybe we're already past the point where that would work given that I took it Jack died in 2005, but still.

It could still work. If they're 36 in 2015, they were 26 in 2005. I'd like some flashbacks of the Big Three around the time they're finishing college and starting out with their adult lives, with dad dispensing some sage life advice.

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

Thank you for this, I thought I was watching a different show.  I just don't see Toby as bad as most folks do.  He and Kate just have two different styles.

I don't think he's bad. I thought he was bad in this episode.  Just like last episode I thought Kate was bad.  In short, they've both shown that they have boundary issues, only on different matters.

[ClareWalks]

Toby is a SHITHEAD. First of all, he was way too pushy about watching the game with Kate. Then he invited some rando over to watch with them. Then they wouldn't STFU during the game, which as a football fan myself I would not abide. Then he PAUSED the game on THIRD DOWN! Right when Roethlisberger is dropping back to pass?! WHAAAAAAAT?! I would have snatched the remote from that son of a bitch! Then Kate left, presumably to watch the damn game in peace like she wanted to anyway, and Toby's like "duhhhhh, why you leavin'?" Then Toby goes to her house and gets all whiny, like "why'd you come over then?" Maybe she wanted to let him in, and tell him about her dad, but then that random guy was there to kill the mood? Argh. Toby is the WORST, you guys. 

Loved Rebecca's evolution from learning about football to hating Terry Bradshaw to loving Terry Bradshaw :)

[topanga]

34 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

William has to be much younger than 75. That would have put him at 39 when Randall was born, but in the flashbacks he looked like he was in his 20s. He's probably in his early or mid 60s, he just looks rough because of his cancer and past drug use.

I forgot about Kevin asking William very nicely if he can read. That scene cracked me up a little.  I would think that William would look a little more unkempt, especially when Randall first met him. I'm sure Randall buys a lot of his clothes now, but even when he wasn't doing that, William looked more like an eccentric history professor than a recovering drug addict with metastatic cancer. 

2 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Re: Kevin's terrible jokes -  I think it's a combination of things. First, he gets jokier when he's in situations where he's less comfortable. He act normal around Kate, and I think that's because he knows he can be himself around her. But when you see him in situations where he's feeling insecure or unsure of himself, he starts making lame jokes.  I can sympathize with that because I know I've been in similar situations where the stupidest things came out of my mouth because I was nervous or feeling awkward (and of course the word vomit just made me feel even more awkward and nervous).  Yes, you would think that anyone who is even a little bit successful in Hollywood would know how to read a room, joke appropriately, and generally be less awkward, but you also have to remember that being in show business means you're often surrounded by yes men and people with ulterior motives so they aren't going to say, "Gawd, what is wrong with you? Chill the fuck out!" For the record, I thought his joke about giving the kids sambuca and ambien was funny!

Kevin's social awkwardness makes me like him more. In fact, I've liked him ever since his nervous audition when he mumbled "Baby say whaaat?" under his breath. 

[Arcadiasw]

When Toby asked, “What the hell did I do to deserve this?” when Kate served him breakfast in bed I said, “I’m wondering the same thing.”

Toby comes across as someone who wants to be included and when he’s not, he pesters until he’s included and when things don’t end in the way he wants, he blames the person he pestered and not himself. Kate told him twice she wants to watch football alone. It’s her thing. Toby couldn’t respect her wishes. Instead he kept insisting to watch with her and when she gives in, he invites his friend who is not into the game either! Then he had the nerve to say “Why did you agree to come over?” Kate could’ve said, “No” a thousand times and Toby still wouldn’t listen. All he sees is that he’s not included in something and he doesn’t like that.

Not sure if dating is allowed in the weight group or Kate and Toby don’t want the group to know and that’s the reason why Kate and Toby weren’t sitting next to each other. With Toby passing that card to Kate like they’re in school, the group certainly knows something is going on between them.

I’ve been in that situation being out with another couple and they get into a fight.  So uncomfortable. We left and it took them twenty minutes to notice we were gone. I like Jack and Rebecca actually work at their relationship. I really like the scene where Rebecca asked Jack to teach her football instead of sitting quietly bored or doing something else. That scene said a lot and it’s something I’ve noticed in couples who have broken up. One complains about the others love for sports, video games or TV shows and not once did they consider learning their partner’s love for something they didn’t understand. I’m glad Rebecca took the route to understand football. It brought her and Jack closer together and it became a family ritual and something Kate looks back on fondly. Still side eyeing Miguel. It looked like he has been waiting for the moment to pounce on Rebecca with his, “Is it a deal breaker?”

Now that Randall and Beth aren’t pregnant, there’s no reason they still couldn’t have loud hotel shower sex. Their evening was put on hold for an hour or so. Enjoy that free night in the hotel room! I think Beth may be stressed because of William and now Kevin staying with them. I’m glad the show went this route instead of adding a child when it’s not need. I’m looking at you Blackish. If Randall and Beth were done with kids he could’ve gotten snipped instead of putting it on Beth to take care of birth control. When Randall said he watched a show on CNN about Charleston I immediately thought Randall’s been watching Anthony Bourdain: Parts Unknown.

I rolled my eyes at Kevin asking William if he can read. Kevin is very oblivious. On second viewing of the breakfast scene, William is wearing glasses and he has a pencil in his hand so he’s obvious reading and writing something. Kevin was sitting across from William at breakfast and he has been there for days and he hasn’t noticed that? I’ll still punch Kevin if I were Randall. I guess he made up for his faux pau but that painting looked like a jumbled mess which fits Kevin to me right now. The girls are 8 and 10. Shouldn’t they have some idea about death by now? I understand Randall and Beth not telling the girls Grandpa is dying until he's visibly sick but at 8 and 10 they should know something without asking their uncle what happens when you die.

When Randall mourned for William, I noticed he was in the youngest daughter’s bedroom. I don’t understand the bedroom situation. Looking at the exterior of the house, it looks like it has at least five bedrooms. My only guess is that there are five bedrooms, three for Randall and Beth and the two girls and the other two have been made into an office or something.

[AdorkableSars]

16 hours ago, bybrandy said:

I wasn't feeling Toby in this episode but I generally like him.   But it isn't because of the grand romantic gestures.   I like him because he's sarcastic and funny and I like sarcastic and funny.   

Yeah, this was the first episode where I didn't like Toby. He needs to give Kate some space. And I really dislike how everytime she tries to serve him something healthy, he always has to have a snarky comment. And acting like a class clown during their group sessions (like the note passing in last night's episode)...he might not be taking the whole weight loss thing as seriously as Kate, but it's obviously important to her. So stop with making fun of her food choices, and let her have her own time. UGH. The only part of their storyline that I cared about was when Toby "met" Jack, and that was only for the Jack part. 

4 hours ago, GodsBeloved said:

I LOVED when Annie said we're listening. She and Tess are beyond precious.

They cast the actresses who play Tess and Annie perfectly. They are adorable girls, and good little actresses! I adored the scenes with Kevin, and the girls. They were funny, and then got way too real, but ended nicely. It was nice to see William being so encouraging and supportive of Kevin. 

Beth and Randall remain the best. I loved his excitement at all the things they could do at the hotel, only to have his dreams crushed. But then their scenes while waiting for the results of the pregnancy test were perfection. Fave TV couple right now, I must say.

The Jack and Rebecca scenes were good. I giggled everytime Miguel and his wife went to get another drink when they could tell things were about to get awkward again with Jack and Rebecca and their kid talk. And it was great to hear Mandy Moore sing, if only for a while! And now we have confirmation that Jack died :( Which sucks, but gives this show so many directions to go, storyline wise, in both the past and present storylines. And I'm excited to see what happens.

[wonderwoman]

Quote

I wish I liked the actual writing on this show a bit more. (I too have yet to find it nearly as endearing or heartstring-tugging as Parenthood was so consistently.)

See, I feel exactly the opposite. I found all that "heartstring-tugging" on Parenthood contrived. The writers always telegraphed the scenes that were supposed to make viewers cry. And, with one exception, that's why I never did. 

[marymon]

Toby bothered me by complaining about the breakfast he got (again).

But that pales in comparison to pausing a game.