Jill, Derick & the Kids: Moving On!!

[Obsidian]

Since we're speculating, maybe Jill wanted some privacy. Jill has been on TV almost as long as she can remember - not her choice - and then she and her headship have been on TV since. Is there evidence that she wanted that, or could Derick and Blob have pulled rank and 'convinced' her that she had to continue with it, and purpose to do so with a sweet countenance? Maybe someone stuck a camera in her face at a bad moment and Jill snapped. Derick should understand since Jill's selfie with him in the hospital bed post-surgery.

[floridamom]

Obsidian, I think if some privacy and time were the only issue, a statement would have been released about that. Derick could have done a short video asking for a break from the cameras and assure everyone that Jill & Sam are both healthy and well. No news from the delivery etc...and thank everyone for understanding. They'd be back after Jill recuperated.....but the didn't do that. So, speculation goes on and on.  Something out of the ordinary happened there, IMO>

[Marigold]

13 minutes ago, Obsidian said:

Since we're speculating, maybe Jill wanted some privacy. Jill has been on TV almost as long as she can remember - not her choice - and then she and her headship have been on TV since. Is there evidence that she wanted that, or could Derick and Blob have pulled rank and 'convinced' her that she had to continue with it, and purpose to do so with a sweet countenance? Maybe someone stuck a camera in her face at a bad moment and Jill snapped. Derick should understand since Jill's selfie with him in the hospital bed post-surgery.

Could be a possibility but then where would they get the money for their missioncation?  They need the fans to DONATE. 

[RedheadZombie]

On ‎7‎/‎25‎/‎2017 at 1:52 PM, zoomama said:

he looks like jessa! hope he is as healthy as he looks. darling baby!

Sammy does look a lot like Jessa.  But he bears a striking resemblance to Thomas Brodie-Sangster (Jojen, Game of Thrones).  He's got that old soul baby look - like his cousin Henry.  Maybe they will plot together to break away.

[RedheadZombie]

On ‎7‎/‎25‎/‎2017 at 2:06 PM, MelsW said:

I'm a longtime lurker here and think the medical/legal speculation on this thread is insane. I'm guessing the Dillard's were holding out on the photos, hoping for a People Magazine payday. Once they realized Sam's photos don't carry the price tag they hoped for, they were free to post on social media. Second theory is they wanted the interest and anticipation to build by holding out on social media posts, which if this thread is any indication, it worked.

I'm uncomfortable with the exaggerated speculation as well.  Prior to the birth, there was an almost salacious tone to the concern trolling.  Prophecies of gloom and doom.  Jill's ignorance and arrogance were going to kill her and Samuel.  Now poor little Sam has Down Syndrome speculation - he's just off according to some.  It's almost as if people don't want mother and child to have gotten off scot-free.  There has to be permanent, long lasting damage to satisfy all of those who predicted this disaster from the moment Jill announced her pregnancy.  It just strikes me as ill-wishing.  It's creepy, and I don't see this same maliciousness in the other threads. 

4 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

I suspect that Jill has a whopping case of PPD, hence her post-it post to God about working on her contentment. She may be resisting the notion that she can never have the VBAC of her dreams and feels inadequate. I'm sure she also realized that she won't be breeding an army for Jesus. She's probably an emotional wreck. 

Having said the above about speculation, I can't help but feel it's possible that Jill has suffered from untreated PPD from Israel's birth.  Since Michelle is purported to be high on Xanax 24/7, there's some acceptance of psychiatric meds.  Or is Michelle a special snowflake because she delivered 19 children herself?

[Marigold]

I was IFB and I do not think Michelle is taking medications at all.  That's the problem.  She needs them. 

IFB do not accept psychiatry.  Prayer can heal mental health issues.  It is also caused by a spiritual weakness. basically, pray harder. 

[Fuzzysox]

18 minutes ago, Marigold said:

 

IFB do not accept psychiatry.  Prayer can heal mental health issues.  It is also caused by a spiritual weakness. basically, pray harder. 

Jill might just be freaked out and hiding in the prayer closet til she can pray the PPD away.

[sometimesy]

 I hope they never ever say anything about Samuel and we get to conspiracy theories like Aliens and Zombies

[queenanne]

12 minutes ago, Marigold said:

I was IFB and I do not think Michelle is taking medications at all.  That's the problem.  She needs them. 

IFB do not accept psychiatry.  Prayer can heal mental health issues.  It is also caused by a spiritual weakness. basically, pray harder. 

Agreed, I sometimes laugh when I see people saying the opposite, because: Fundies wouldn't..   Their entire identity is tied up in it, and in considering "psychiatry" as something akin to witchcraft.  

We know they didn't seek out real psychiatric help for Josh, instead going to "manual labor and counseling"; they're not going to do it for Michelle.  

The people who won't darken the door of a restaurant that doesn't serve alcohol, won't resort to drugs.  Maaaaaaaybe, if a doctor prescribed post-natal to either Michelle or Jill; but they'd be vested and petrified into/against any one of their fellow fundies finding out, with a red-hot fear that cannot be understood by the secular.  "Well, from time to time everyone needs - " Nope,  fundies think prayer solves and cures everything.  Depression?  Psssssh.  No such thing.  You can just will yourself into cheering up, and if prayer hasn't done it, then you're a bad Christian.  They're only just now beginning to poke a toe into the ocean of heresy:

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/dec/22/evangelical-christian-church-mental-illness

The study indicated that although nearly half of evangelical Christians believe that mental illness can be overcome by “Bible study and prayer alone”, the thinking behind this belief is evolving. Whereas in 2007 evangelical writer and musician Carlos Whittaker was told by his pastor to not even speak about his struggle with anxiety, this year, prominent pastor Rick Warren hosted a day-long conference on addressing mental illness in partnership with the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention.

[JoanArc]

2 minutes ago, sometimesy said:

 I hope they never ever say anything about Samuel and we get to conspiracy theories like Aliens and Zombies

He looks fine. It's Jill that's the puzzle now. Maybe she'll never show her face in public again?

[jcbrown]

1 minute ago, JoanArc said:

He looks fine. It's Jill that's the puzzle now. Maybe she'll never show her face in public again?

If so, can we get whatever happened to her to also happen to Smuggar, Boob, and MEchelle?

[JoanArc]

Oh, I forgot, no People cover today? I see people posted the instagram pic of Sammy online. That's it? Really? Double plus ungood.

[Marigold]

7 minutes ago, queenanne said:

Agreed, I sometimes laugh when I see people saying the opposite, because: Fundies wouldn't..   Their entire identity is tied up in it, and in considering "psychiatry" as something akin to witchcraft.  

We know they didn't seek out real psychiatric help for Josh, instead going to "manual labor and counseling"; they're not going to do it for Michelle.  

The people who won't darken the door of a restaurant that doesn't serve alcohol, won't resort to drugs.  Maaaaaaaybe, if a doctor prescribed post-natal to either Michelle or Jill; but they'd be vested and petrified into/against any one of their fellow fundies finding out, with a red-hot fear that cannot be understood by the secular.  "Well, from time to time everyone needs - " Nope,  fundies think prayer solves and cures everything.  Depression?  Psssssh.  No such thing.  You can just will yourself into cheering up, and if prayer hasn't done it, then you're a bad Christian.  They're only just now beginning to poke a toe into the ocean of heresy:

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/dec/22/evangelical-christian-church-mental-illness

 

Yes.

An evangelicals are generally more modern than the IFB.  So highly unlikely that any of the Duggs are on medication. 
It makes sense if you look at Jill's little post-it Bible verse post.  She is struggling with something and praying for contentment. 

[Jynnan tonnix]

36 minutes ago, RedheadZombie said:

I'm uncomfortable with the exaggerated speculation as well.  Prior to the birth, there was an almost salacious tone to the concern trolling.  Prophecies of gloom and doom.  Jill's ignorance and arrogance were going to kill her and Samuel.  Now poor little Sam has Down Syndrome speculation - he's just off according to some.  It's almost as if people don't want mother and child to have gotten off scot-free.  There has to be permanent, long lasting damage to satisfy all of those who predicted this disaster from the moment Jill announced her pregnancy.  It just strikes me as ill-wishing.  It's creepy, and I don't see this same maliciousness in the other threads. 

Having said the above about speculation, I can't help but feel it's possible that Jill has suffered from untreated PPD from Israel's birth.  Since Michelle is purported to be high on Xanax 24/7, there's some acceptance of psychiatric meds.  Or is Michelle a special snowflake because she delivered 19 children herself?

I know what you mean about the exaggerated speculation, but I also have to believe that pretty much everyone here was hoping for a positive outcome. If anything, I think some of the tone suggesting a hint of anticipated schadenfreude was more geared toward a possible wake-up call for the family regarding their "pray it away" attitude. 

If, indeed, the case is that little Sammy Scott is fine but Jill is unable to have more children, I don't suppose that's an outcome most of us would see as tragic though,. Granted, it might seem that way to Jill, especially if she is already suffering from untreated PND, but in reality it could be a blessing in disguise. Jill clearly doesn't seem to have the personality and stamina to successfully raise a large family, so it's better for everyone involved if she is limited to just the two, and if some of the other Duggar offspring DO turn out to have a true heart for (many) children, they have a clear warning that trying to do the whole thing without prenatal monitoring topped off with a home birth may very well be a recipe for disaster.

[Absolom]

15 minutes ago, Jynnan tonnix said:

Jill clearly doesn't seem to have the personality and stamina to successfully raise a large family, so it's better for everyone involved if she is limited to just the two, and if some of the other Duggar offspring DO turn out to have a true heart for (many) children, they have a clear warning that trying to do the whole thing without prenatal monitoring topped off with a home birth may very well be a recipe for disaster.

Yes this.  I'm of the camp of might as well get the fantasy that all 19 kids' families can pump out 19 kids as easily as JB and Michelle did out the way early.  It can be liberating and educational for those that come after.  I doubt it's going to make much difference to Anna until something actually goes wrong with one of her pregnancies, but possibly the rest will pay at least a little attention.  Jinger and Jana seem to both already not be taken with the wild west approach to pregnancies and childbirth.

That said, I did not and do not wish anything bad on any of the Duggars.  It's simply statistics and real life are against them in this area. 

[queenanne]

19 minutes ago, Jynnan tonnix said:

I know what you mean about the exaggerated speculation, but I also have to believe that pretty much everyone here was hoping for a positive outcome. If anything, I think some of the tone suggesting a hint of anticipated schadenfreude was more geared toward a possible wake-up call for the family regarding their "pray it away" attitude. 

If, indeed, the case is that little Sammy Scott is fine but Jill is unable to have more children, I don't suppose that's an outcome most of us would see as tragic though,. Granted, it might seem that way to Jill, especially if she is already suffering from untreated PND, but in reality it could be a blessing in disguise. Jill clearly doesn't seem to have the personality and stamina to successfully raise a large family, so it's better for everyone involved if she is limited to just the two, and if some of the other Duggar offspring DO turn out to have a true heart for (many) children, they have a clear warning that trying to do the whole thing without prenatal monitoring topped off with a home birth may very well be a recipe for disaster.

It's also a potential caution flag on the possibility that MOTY Meechelle, is in fact the one who ruined her own daughters' stamina for producing and presenting her with the adoring grandblessings en masse.  remember the large quantities of people predicting Jill would be fantabulous earth mother because of how her "buddies" were bonded to her and carried on when she left to be married?  And ever since then she's been lackluster with Izzy at best.

[Caracoa1]

If Jill does still have her uterus ( and I wish her no harm) I believe she will continue to get pregnant regardless of what her attending emergency OB has told her.

[Absolom]

The only thing I take exception to is the hours of hard labor.  As Jessa showed us in her latest birth, they count labor beginning from at least water breaking no matter whether labor actually begins or not.  That isn't how hospitals count it.  And Jill herself said contractions started and stopped.  She took castor oil to get them going again. 

But yes, Jill has had enough life changing events in a short period of time to challenge the most sturdy individuals and she wasn't all that emotionally sturdy before it all began.

[SnarkyShark]

8 minutes ago, Janarella said:

I have empathy for Jill. She was completely unprepared for adult life... and her life of the past three years has been FREAKING HARD(!!!) by anyone's standards. 

I sometimes wonder if the past three years have helped Jill "grow up" in a sense, meaning she has a better understanding of what it takes to live as an adult in the world. I do not expect her sense of adulting to be on par with what you would expect for a normal person in their mid-twenties, but these are the Duggars after all.

However, it does not seem like Jill has developed more confidence or a better sense of independence (as it appears with Jinger). If anything, it strikes me as though she is more confused than ever. She was thrust into the roles of wife and mother in rapid succession, and she obviously tried to embrace the what she had been prepared for her whole life. Except then things turned out to be different from what she expected. No homebirth and then no VBAC. Marriage is not always sunshine and roses. Raising a kid is hard, thankless work. Being a missionary requires living away from home and surviving on your own. It also means having a sense of solidarity with the people in order to truly connect with them. 

The life Jill thought she wanted was never fully realized and did not turn out to be easy. Now she is having to deal with a broad mixture of emotions—disappointment because things have turned out differently than she wanted, hurt because of the criticism she has received on the internet, guilt because she has not lived up to others' or her own expectations, guilt again because she realizes she wants something different when she is not supposed to, and sadness because she cannot find satisfaction and prayer can only work so well. So where does Jill go from here? Pray more, because that is the answer to everything?

Jill just seems confused, probably because she is processing (more like stifling) a lot. I agree with those who have said before that she seems lost, and what I find depressing about it is that Jill's cult is not a place for her to find herself again. There is no self with Gothard, and so Jill will likely continue to drift, as confused and fearful as ever. 

[duggarshow]

On 7/25/2017 at 1:06 PM, MelsW said:

I'm a longtime lurker here and think the medical/legal speculation on this thread is insane. I'm guessing the Dillard's were holding out on the photos, hoping for a People Magazine payday. Once they realized Sam's photos don't carry the price tag they hoped for, they were free to post on social media. Second theory is they wanted the interest and anticipation to build by holding out on social media posts, which if this thread is any indication, it worked.

I totally agree with this.. Everything has been surmised from Down Syndrome to hysterectomy to death and more. It's quite sad, actually.

[jilliannatalia]

17 hours ago, Quof said:

There isn't a law targeted at mothers. The law prohibits midwives from attending VBACs, so mom would have to find a physician to attend the delivery at home or deliver with no trained assistance.  

Makes sense.

[laurakaye]

In addition to @Janarella's great post, add to it that Jill, while trying to emulate her mother's prolific loins, discovers that as soon as she has birthing complications, her mother responds by flying to Hawaii.  For that alone, I despise Michelle even more than I already did.  JB is a gutless doof and I expect that from him.  But Michelle blindly following her headship while things at home are not right is inexcusable.  And if you have that many kids, Michelle?  You can bet that things aren't always going to be smooth sailing and that you cannot just jet off on vacation when the mood strikes.  You stay home and mother your children, especially the ones who are struggling.  Of course, to do that, one must be mentally tuned-in to what is going on right under your nose, so I realize that what I'm asking from Michelle is not possible.  Still, it enrages me.

[Minivanessa]

8 hours ago, duggarfan said:

 Everything has been surmised from Down Syndrome to hysterectomy to death and more. 

True, but I believe that the "Down Syndrome!!/hysterectomy!!/death!!" extreme kinds of posts haven't gained much traction on this thread after they've popped up.  I haven't analyzed "likes" and responses statistically. But, for example, someone commented on a recent photo of Samuel that they saw signs of Down's Syndrome. And what happened? A forum member who's an OB-GYN in real life, replied that Samuel doesn't look like a Down's baby, and that post quickly drew the 25+ "likes" that means it turned a highlighted color on the page. It wasn't hammered to death by a slew of replies, but that was a strong show of disagreement with that bit of speculation. Frankly, IMO, the suggestion of Down's was extreme and not worth spending a lot of time on, and @doodlebug's well informed post was all that was needed to deal with it.

Also, upthread someone posted along the lines of "I heard from a friend whose mother-in-law's neighbor's sister's ex-husband works at the hospital, that Jill and Samuel have Zika." And the response was immediate - and not with everyone chiming in that, "oh, we believe it and that's horrible!" But instead, there were multiple comments that if any such hospital employee exists and said such a thing, they should be immediately fired because they violated the law (HIPAA). Sure, there's a Zika risk and IMO some people have hammered on that issue more than I agree with, but generally it's been out of concern for the health of Jill and her babies. When someone tried to go all sensational with "Leaks from the Hospital!!!" that didn't go very far.

Unlike all too many Internet venues, the discussions here are civil. If I read a post and think, "that's bullsh*t," I will either ignore it or frame a reply that expresses my opinion, and the relevant facts, in logical and civil terms. I suspect that many, or most, of the other members of this forum behave in similar ways. 

ETA: The speculation here on this topic ran its most rampant in the few days immediately after Samuel's birth. The really unusual silence from the Duggars/Dillards after Derick's initial tweet, the photo of newborn Samuel hooked up to the medical equipment, and Derick's editing his Instagram post to delete references to 40 hours of labor and a C-section - all provided fodder for discussion and speculation. Thanks again to @doodlebug who provided informed commentary on what the photo of newborn Sam indicated as to his treatment and condition (going to be in ICU after a rough start) which was non-inflammatory and reasonable. 

Edited July 27, 2017 by Jeeves

[zoomama]

17 minutes ago, Jeeves said:

 A forum member who's an OB-GYN in real life, replied that Samuel doesn't look like a Down's baby, and that post quickly drew the 25+ "likes" that means it turned a highlighted color on the page

 

is THAT why i get colored posts? never knew that. 

[tabloidlover]

23 minutes ago, Jeeves said:

True, but I believe that the "Down Syndrome!!/hysterectomy!!/death!!" extreme kinds of posts haven't gained much traction on this thread after they've popped up.  I haven't analyzed "likes" and responses statistically. But, for example, someone commented on a recent photo of Samuel that they saw signs of Down's Syndrome. And what happened? A forum member who's an OB-GYN in real life, replied that Samuel doesn't look like a Down's baby, and that post quickly drew the 25+ "likes" that means it turned a highlighted color on the page. It wasn't hammered to death by a slew of replies, but that was a strong show of disagreement with that bit of speculation. Frankly, IMO, the suggestion of Down's was extreme and not worth spending a lot of time on, and @doodlebug's well informed post was all that was needed to deal with it.

Also, upthread someone posted along the lines of "I heard from a friend whose mother-in-law's neighbor's sister's ex-husband works at the hospital, that Jill and Samuel have Zika." And the response was immediate - and not with everyone chiming in that, "oh, we believe it and that's horrible!" But instead, there were multiple comments that if any such hospital employee exists and said such a thing, they should be immediately fired because they violated the law (HIPAA). Sure, there's a Zika risk and IMO some people have hammered on that issue more than I agree with, but generally it's been out of concern for the health of Jill and her babies. When someone tried to go all sensational with "Leaks from the Hospital!!!" that didn't go very far.

Unlike all too many Internet venues, the discussions here are civil. If I read a post and think, "that's bullsh*t," I will either ignore it or frame a reply that expresses my opinion, and the relevant facts, in logical and civil terms. I suspect that many, or most, of the other members of this forum behave in similar ways.

ETA: The speculation here on this topic ran its most rampant in the few days immediately after Samuel's birth. The really unusual silence from the Duggars/Dillards after Derick's initial tweet, the photo of newborn Samuel hooked up to the medical equipment, and Derick's editing his Instagram post to delete references to 40 hours of labor and a C-section - all provided fodder for discussion and speculation. Thanks again to @doodlebug who provided informed commentary on what the photo of newborn Sam indicated as to his treatment and condition (going to be in ICU after a rough start) which was non-inflammatory and reasonable. 

Standing ovation for this post @Jeeves

[FakingItMakingIt]

I still think something has happened to Jill...but could it be that People didn't want them for a cover? Maybe they took their 40 hour labor, Jill is wonder women story to people and people said ok but it wont be a cover and they are having a toddler fit about not being special enough? If they cant have a people cover then nobody gets to know anything.

[flyingdi]

1 hour ago, laurakaye said:

In addition to @Janarella's great post, add to it that Jill, while trying to emulate her mother's prolific loins, discovers that as soon as she has birthing complications, her mother responds by flying to Hawaii.  For that alone, I despise Michelle even more than I already did.  JB is a gutless doof and I expect that from him.  But Michelle blindly following her headship while things at home are not right is inexcusable.  And if you have that many kids, Michelle?  You can bet that things aren't always going to be smooth sailing and that you cannot just jet off on vacation when the mood strikes.  You stay home and mother your children, especially the ones who are struggling.  Of course, to do that, one must be mentally tuned-in to what is going on right under your nose, so I realize that what I'm asking from Michelle is not possible.  Still, it enrages me.

Somehow from watching the show I never once got the feeling Michelle has any special love or bond with Jill.  Jill seems to crave her attention and Michelle doesn't seem to care. Maybe Michelle is jealous that Jill is Jim Bob's favorite.

[Churchhoney]

18 hours ago, Marigold said:

I think Jill is just DEVASTATED she had to have another C-section.  Two C-sections/two failed vaginal attempts means that her fertility is going to be limited. 

This is probably what has Jill in such bad shape. She believed the first birth would, of course, be a picture perfect home birth.  When that "failed" and she needed an emergency C-section, she was crushed.  This second pregnancy, she had her hopes on a picture perfect VBAC and now that "failed".  Sure, we all know women who have had 8 C-sections but that is not the standard.  Three or four is more likely.  And maybe when the OB was working on her, she was told she had a lot of scar tissue or something else that was not the best news for future C-sections. 

(I have had C-sections and during each surgery I have asked how things are looking in there; could I handle another pregnancy and C-section. I was so pleased during the last C-section that my scars had healed so well and was given the green light for another C-section if I wanted. Imagine Jill getting the opposite of that news? Especially after Jessa just had an uncomplicated home birth!)

We can all give opinions and advice on Jill not having such a large family but the fact is that Jill  wanted a large family and now all her plans & dreams are completely upside down and backwards.  Given Jill has such limited coping skills and is emotionally immature, she is really struggling. Mix in hormones, a post C-section recovery, a toddler and  Derick planning yet another missioncation asap, Jill is probably loosing her mind right about now.   

I originally thought maybe Samuel wasn't well but he seems to be OK. My bet is that Jill had a complicated C-section and was maybe told no more C-sections or only one more. 

Yeah, I agree with this. We all have our dreams and visions. Most of us here don't share Jill's particular one. But having the vision of your life that you've held and cherished since childhood destroyed would be a huge blow to anyone, no matter what that vision is.

And much worse for someone like Jill, who's not only been aggressively schooled to simply see no other options AND told that her whole worth in the universal scheme of things depends on this, how much more terrible is it going to be? .... Plus, the Duggars deliberately set out to raise fearful and rigid kids -- just lately people have been noting that Jessa, formerly believed to be tough and independent, is probably such a one as well -- and the rigid and fearful have a hard time adjusting even to small things, let alone to seeing their entire life plans crumble before their eyes. .... And Jill has already noticed that she actually doesn't want to be a missionary -- which also was a blow to her vision of herself. 

I'll be surprised if this isn't pretty much the explanation.

[Patricia07]

As to People magazine, etc., someone should tell Jill that the world doesn't revolve around her (or whatever she says to Izzy.)

[Churchhoney]

11 hours ago, SnarkyShark said:

 

However, it does not seem like Jill has developed more confidence or a better sense of independence (as it appears with Jinger). If anything, it strikes me as though she is more confused than ever.

The thing is, though, the Duggar kids were raised to fear the world and everybody in it completely and to be rigid as hell about virtually everything.......

Then, at the exact same time, they were loudly and repeatedly told that they were being prepared to be absolute world beaters -- that they were being given the best possible preparation for all aspects of life, that unlike virtually any other kids anywhere they were being prepared to enter adulthood fully fledged and ready to handle everything, "daddy" was giving them the best possible training to fly fly fly for Jesus! Josh was going to be a great Christian political star. The girls were "best-selling authors!" on subjects they knew nothing about, They all went on the morning shows!

We know that they were taught these two completely contradictory things because they've repeatedly asserted the second. And the first is obvious from the way we've seen them raised and the things we know they "learned" in their "schooling" and cult training.

That's a positively crazy-making upbringing because it makes you into a weak and scared person while simultaneously  telling you that you'll be the strongest person out there. When you get messages that mixed -- and that strongly enforced -- you're a complete psychological and mental mess entering young adulthood, and you almost certainly don't realize that you are, which makes it even worse and harder to get past.

And when you're that much of a mess entering adulthood, you can't just mature and gain independence in the natural way that many people do. Your whole mindset is completely unsuited for that -- and not in just one way but in two ways. Jill's upbringing was abnormal to a dangerous degree. And with that kind of a background, independence could actually be an impossible achievement, I think. And, if it is possible, it can only happen by means of tons and tons of self-reflection (which you have zero experience with and may not even be smart enough to do very well); lots and lots of time; and, probably, professional counseling.

Note that, while half the Duggar kids are now "of age," not one has attained a normal independence yet. I think that for a while a lot of people thought Jessa was sailing to it because she's the "strong" one, the 'independent" one, the "rebel." But by the comments I'm seeing on the recent shows, she's revealing that she, too, is a rigid, fearful mess. ANd while Jinger may be on a different path, she hasn't been tested very much yet. She lives in the states not in a country where she doesn't speak the language (they're learning Spanish in Laredo -- but they don't actually need it there), with a husband who seems himself to be super-confident and who -- notably -- hasn't seen his own dreams shattered, as Derick has, so he's going to be of more help. And she hasn't yet had health problems post-marriage or seen her husband have them. And we don't even know her dream, so we don't know that, like Jill's dream, it's been shattered. And yet Jinger still looks very clingy to a lot of people (I don't know, because I don't watch the show.) ..... And as for the other older kids -- two have never left home, one has crept back....and the young-20-somethings are all hanging there, too.

Their path to any kind of real independence will be very very rocky in every case, I expect.

Edited July 27, 2017 by Churchhoney

[Genevrier]

2 hours ago, laurakaye said:

You stay home and mother your children, especially the ones who are struggling.  Of course, to do that, one must be mentally tuned-in to what is going on right under your nose, so I realize that what I'm asking from Michelle is not possible.  Still, it enrages me.

Someone might want to remind her that she also has children at home herself that are still in the single digits of age. It appears she has decided she's in a new season of life now-done raising children and ready to count up her grandchildren, but she's not finished the motherhood season yet. If she didn't want to be raising children for several decades, she ought to have stopped having them. 

[Nysha]

16 hours ago, Marigold said:

I was IFB and I do not think Michelle is taking medications at all.  That's the problem.  She needs them. 

IFB do not accept psychiatry.  Prayer can heal mental health issues.  It is also caused by a spiritual weakness. basically, pray harder. 

I hope Michelle is being medicated, because not only do I think she needs it but it's the only explanation that makes sense given her behavior and demeanor for the past several years. My PA gave me a script for anti-depressants, perhaps, after Jubilee's birth/miscarriage, Michelle's OB gave her a script to help her sleep/relax/whatever and they continue to get it refilled.

[Marigold]

43 minutes ago, Nysha said:

I hope Michelle is being medicated, because not only do I think she needs it but it's the only explanation that makes sense given her behavior and demeanor for the past several years. My PA gave me a script for anti-depressants, perhaps, after Jubilee's birth/miscarriage, Michelle's OB gave her a script to help her sleep/relax/whatever and they continue to get it refilled.

Nysha, I really hope that is happening and Michelle is being taken care of.  I don't think so at all. The IFB and Gothard are solid in their hatred of psychiatry.

I think the erratic and strange behavior is her just collapsing under the trauma of Jubilee and all of Josh's scandals and criminal behavior. 

[SongbirdHollow]

On 7/26/2017 at 0:11 PM, nightmeri said:

I hope this is an ok question to ask: IF the Dullards were told they should not have more children or were told to wait 24 months, does that medical "diagnosis" allow them to use birth control? Or must they practice abstinence/abstain at certain times?  I remember Jill saying "Derricks Room" in DA, which I assumed to mean they slept apart. Maybe that is causing depression or anxiety. She was taught that a happy marriage includes constant friskiness...

The Duggars vowed at the time of their marriages that they would "allow GOD to determine the size" of their families. Not man. If they take this literally this means damn the diagnosis, full speed ahead.

[Missy Vixen]

19 hours ago, Marigold said:

Could be a possibility but then where would they get the money for their missioncation?  They need the fans to DONATE. 

Occam's Razor, folks.

Again, there's nothing else going on but RATINGS and DONATE.

[saylubee]

1 hour ago, SongbirdHollow said:

The Duggars vowed at the time of their marriages that they would "allow GOD to determine the size" of their families. Not man. If they take this literally this means damn the diagnosis, full speed ahead.

Jill was still breastfeeding Izzy at 18 months, so likely she was using that as a form of birth control (not perfect, but better then nothing) to delay Samuel's conception.  Other then that, it was in God's hands.

[doodlebug]

1 hour ago, SongbirdHollow said:

The Duggars vowed at the time of their marriages that they would "allow GOD to determine the size" of their families. Not man. If they take this literally this means damn the diagnosis, full speed ahead.

There is no doubt in my mind that Michelle was strongly advised to stop getting pregnant after Josie (she may well  have been advised of this a few kids earlier).  And, yet, what happened? Less than a year later, knocked up again.  And I don't for one minute believe she started using contraception after that; she just got close enough to menopause that it didn't happen again.

These folks view giving birth as their only purpose in life and a woman who sacrifices her own health or life in pursuit of it is a holy martyr.  I don't believe that there is anything any medical professional could say to Jill that would cause her to use birth control.

[xwordfanatik]

2 hours ago, Marigold said:

Nysha, I really hope that is happening and Michelle is being taken care of.  I don't think so at all. The IFB and Gothard are solid in their hatred of psychiatry.

I think the erratic and strange behavior is her just collapsing under the trauma of Jubilee and all of Josh's scandals and criminal behavior. 

I agree with you.  Scary how this fundy cult resembles Scientology in many ways.  

No psychiatry and no medications.  How is this helpful, I wonder?

[lianau]

4 hours ago, Genevrier said:

Someone might want to remind her that she also has children at home herself that are still in the single digits of age. It appears she has decided she's in a new season of life now-done raising children and ready to count up her grandchildren, but she's not finished the motherhood season yet. If she didn't want to be raising children for several decades, she ought to have stopped having them. 

I think Mechelle checked out of raising her children after the laundry room breakdown and since then Jana and the J-Slaves have done the job . I don't think the kids miss her when she's not around since she's not actually the one raising  them . 

[BitterApple]

52 minutes ago, lianau said:

I think Mechelle checked out of raising her children after the laundry room breakdown and since then Jana and the J-Slaves have done the job . I don't think the kids miss her when she's not around since she's not actually the one raising  them . 

I remember a scene during the original series where Michelle and Boob were leaving to go out of town. They were making a huge production of it, and none of the children even glanced up from what they were doing to say good-bye. I agree it's no different for the kids whether their parents are around or not. They get same amount of non-attention either way. 

[queenanne]

6 hours ago, Churchhoney said:

The thing is, though, the Duggar kids were raised to fear the world and everybody in it completely and to be rigid as hell about virtually everything.......

Then, at the exact same time, they were loudly and repeatedly told that they were being prepared to be absolute world beaters -- that they were being given the best possible preparation for all aspects of life, that unlike virtually any other kids anywhere they were being prepared to enter adulthood fully fledged and ready to handle everything, "daddy" was giving them the best possible training to fly fly fly for Jesus! Josh was going to be a great Christian political star. The girls were "best-selling authors!" on subjects they knew nothing about, They all went on the morning shows!

We know that they were taught these two completely contradictory things because they've repeatedly asserted the second. And the first is obvious from the way we've seen them raised and the things we know they "learned" in their "schooling" and cult training.

That's a positively crazy-making upbringing because it makes you into a weak and scared person while simultaneously  telling you that you'll be the strongest person out there. When you get messages that mixed -- and that strongly enforced -- you're a complete psychological and mental mess entering young adulthood, and you almost certainly don't realize that you are, which makes it even worse and harder to get past.

And when you're that much of a mess entering adulthood, you can't just mature and gain independence in the natural way that many people do. Your whole mindset is completely unsuited for that -- and not in just one way but in two ways. Jill's upbringing was abnormal to a dangerous degree. And with that kind of a background, independence could actually be an impossible achievement, I think. And, if it is possible, it can only happen by means of tons and tons of self-reflection (which you have zero experience with and may not even be smart enough to do very well); lots and lots of time; and, probably, professional counseling.

Note that, while half the Duggar kids are now "of age," not one has attained a normal independence yet. I think that for a while a lot of people thought Jessa was sailing to it because she's the "strong" one, the 'independent" one, the "rebel." But by the comments I'm seeing on the recent shows, she's revealing that she, too, is a rigid, fearful mess. ANd while Jinger may be on a different path, she hasn't been tested very much yet. She lives in the states not in a country where she doesn't speak the language (they're learning Spanish in Laredo -- but they don't actually need it there), with a husband who seems himself to be super-confident and who -- notably -- hasn't seen his own dreams shattered, as Derick has, so he's going to be of more help. And she hasn't yet had health problems post-marriage or seen her husband have them. And we don't even know her dream, so we don't know that, like Jill's dream, it's been shattered. And yet Jinger still looks very clingy to a lot of people (I don't know, because I don't watch the show.) ..... And as for the other older kids -- two have never left home, one has crept back....and the young-20-somethings are all hanging there, too.

Their path to any kind of real independence will be very very rocky in every case, I expect.

And yet, let's not forget that you're also getting the message, that while you're prepared to be glorious Christian politicians etc., you're, as you point out in the Jinger thread, not supposed to be looking after "glory", because that's "vainglorious".  So, the Duggars are really schooling the children into mediocrity, because it's only OK to be mediocre; like Jeremy now rewriting history to say that it was necessary for him to be a soccer league washout, because he was too prideful about it and always seeking glory.  The most any Christian is really supposed to aspire to, is to be a boring worker bee cog wielding a wrench as the "preaching mechanic", and so forth; because to say you think you *can* be, for example, the fundie, well, even Norman Rockwell, would be "vainglorious" of you.  The Duggars have actually inherited a puffed-up sense of ego and pride that tells them they're great; while simultaneously telling them they're supposed to be "humble" (i.e., worthless, lower than dirt and the snake's belly, etc).

31 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

I remember a scene during the original series where Michelle and Boob were leaving to go out of town. They were making a huge production of it, and none of the children even glanced up from what they were doing to say good-bye. I agree it's no different for the kids whether their parents are around or not. They get same amount of non-attention either way. 

Man, I used to hate that when I babysat... parents forcing the infant gurgling happily away in my arms to watch them walking out the front door ("BYE BABY!  WE'RE GOING NOW!", etc., etc;), for what purpose?  Specifically trying to make the kid cry and be miserable?  I always wanted to say "You know, all that makes me do is think you people had children for the purpose of feeding your egos, because I can't think of any other reason why you'd want to gin up your perfectly happy kidlet to cry, when s/he is loving me, and probably won't notice you people have walked out the door for two hours, as she's eight months old."  I mean, shouldn't they WANT their children to be content and not suffused in heartbreaking bawling as much as possible?  

[GeeGolly]

On 7/26/2017 at 4:15 PM, Kokapetl said:

I think Jill probably had a yuuuge mental breakdown, possibly with psychosis. Or perhaps the hospital's doctors couldn't ignore a glaring psychiatric issue that the family had been ignoring. 

On 7/26/2017 at 4:24 PM, Sew Sumi said:

Jill would certainly refuse any professional help, and as her post demonstrated, is trying to pray away her depression, guilt, feelings of inadequacy, etc.

If Jill was having symptoms of severe PPD and especially with psychotic features there's a strong possibility she would not be able to refuse services. Safety of self and others trump the Fundy card.

[Sew Sumi]

But who would report her? If she's had her stitches removed (or do they dissolve?), and  if Sammy is off the breathing machine (it's portable, but we can't see his feet for signs of possible cords), she's certainly going back to her midwife for post-natal care. Would the crunchy midwife refer Jill for care should she have any form of PPD? I truly have no idea how this works outside of the conventional medical community.

[duggarshow]

8 hours ago, Jeeves said:

True, but I believe that the "Down Syndrome!!/hysterectomy!!/death!!" extreme kinds of posts haven't gained much traction on this thread after they've popped up.  I haven't analyzed "likes" and responses statistically. But, for example, someone commented on a recent photo of Samuel that they saw signs of Down's Syndrome. And what happened? A forum member who's an OB-GYN in real life, replied that Samuel doesn't look like a Down's baby, and that post quickly drew the 25+ "likes" that means it turned a highlighted color on the page. It wasn't hammered to death by a slew of replies, but that was a strong show of disagreement with that bit of speculation. Frankly, IMO, the suggestion of Down's was extreme and not worth spending a lot of time on, and @doodlebug's well informed post was all that was needed to deal with it.

Also, upthread someone posted along the lines of "I heard from a friend whose mother-in-law's neighbor's sister's ex-husband works at the hospital, that Jill and Samuel have Zika." And the response was immediate - and not with everyone chiming in that, "oh, we believe it and that's horrible!" But instead, there were multiple comments that if any such hospital employee exists and said such a thing, they should be immediately fired because they violated the law (HIPAA). Sure, there's a Zika risk and IMO some people have hammered on that issue more than I agree with, but generally it's been out of concern for the health of Jill and her babies. When someone tried to go all sensational with "Leaks from the Hospital!!!" that didn't go very far.

Unlike all too many Internet venues, the discussions here are civil. If I read a post and think, "that's bullsh*t," I will either ignore it or frame a reply that expresses my opinion, and the relevant facts, in logical and civil terms. I suspect that many, or most, of the other members of this forum behave in similar ways. 

ETA: The speculation here on this topic ran its most rampant in the few days immediately after Samuel's birth. The really unusual silence from the Duggars/Dillards after Derick's initial tweet, the photo of newborn Samuel hooked up to the medical equipment, and Derick's editing his Instagram post to delete references to 40 hours of labor and a C-section - all provided fodder for discussion and speculation. Thanks again to @doodlebug who provided informed commentary on what the photo of newborn Sam indicated as to his treatment and condition (going to be in ICU after a rough start) which was non-inflammatory and reasonable. 

OMG!! THANK YOU for explaining why certain posts turn pink. :)

Also, I agree with you that most of the doomsday posts didn't receive a lot of likes, but it's just the notion that some folks seem to want the worst possible outcome that saddens me.

[Jynnan tonnix]

6 hours ago, Nysha said:

I hope Michelle is being medicated, because not only do I think she needs it but it's the only explanation that makes sense given her behavior and demeanor for the past several years. My PA gave me a script for anti-depressants, perhaps, after Jubilee's birth/miscarriage, Michelle's OB gave her a script to help her sleep/relax/whatever and they continue to get it refilled.

I wonder (not that Michelle is true mother of the year material in real life to start with), whether she would have had an easier time had Josie been her last pregnancy. After 19 kids, having the last time at bat be a strikeout has to be a bit difficult...

[ginger90]

Derick tweeted

Derick Dillard @derick4Him

The Bible has always been, and will continue to be, the most relevant book ever. Have you read and considered it?

11:54 AM - 27 Jul 2017

One of the responses

Rambling Kite @RamblingKite 1h

Replying to @derick4Him

It's a bit dry. Have you tried harry potter?

Think he'll delete it? I can't stand Derick's "tone".

[bigskygirl]

26 minutes ago, ginger90 said:

Derick tweeted

Derick Dillard @derick4Him

The Bible has always been, and will continue to be, the most relevant book ever. Have you read and considered it?

11:54 AM - 27 Jul 2017

One of the responses

Rambling Kite @RamblingKite 1h

Replying to @derick4Him

It's a bit dry. Have you tried harry potter?

Think he'll delete it? I can't stand Derick's "tone".

Breaking in to say I cannot stop laughing at the Harry Potter comment. I like people with a good sense of humor. I will now take my heathen self to the Prayer Closet.

[Jynnan tonnix]

6 minutes ago, bigskygirl said:

Breaking in to say I cannot stop laughing at the Harry Potter comment. I like people with a good sense of humor. I will now take my heathen self to the Prayer Closet.

Same here! Anyone strait-laced enough to see the Harry Potter reference as some sort of threat really needs a few good, deep breaths of "real world" air.

[MamaMax]

I haven't really been able to keep up with this thread, can someone give me a summary of Sammy's birth and what followed?

[GeeGolly]

2 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

But who would report her? If she's had her stitches removed (or do they dissolve?), and  if Sammy is off the breathing machine (it's portable, but we can't see his feet for signs of possible cords), she's certainly going back to her midwife for post-natal care. Would the crunchy midwife refer Jill for care should she have any form of PPD? I truly have no idea how this works outside of the conventional medical community.

I was answering yours and Koka's post. If medical professionals noticed symptoms that might indicate severe PPD they would have Jill evaluated. If she was deemed a danger to herself or others she would be transferred to a psychiatric floor for a minimum of 72 hours for evaluation and treatment.