Jill, Derick & the Kids: Moving On!!

[EAG46]

I suppose an Orthodox Jewish translation would be different from the progressive Conservative version I was raised with.  But the books are all in the same order...which is what I was really talking about.  They don't have some books missing and other books in other places.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanakh

[ginger90]

"Where we serve in Central America, Bibles are a commodity. Every Bible we purchase is gone immediately. Will you help us supply Bibles? Pledge $20 a month to purchase Bibles."

So a bible is a commodity, yup. Perhaps an adjective would help, Jill. Ugh.

[Ripley68]

Jilly did say that Derk was going to ESL classes. If he needs a translator to "minister" how can he possibly teach an ESL class?

[ariel]

49 minutes ago, EAG46 said:

 Have any of these Duggar dillweeds ever been in a synagogue?

I hope not. They would probably behave like a bunch of insensitive rubes.  Maybe try to hand out a fundy tract or two.

Edited April 20, 2017 by ariel

[Churchhoney]

54 minutes ago, EAG46 said:

"Right kind of Bible"?  Really?  Actually I was surprised to learn that there *are* differences between Catholic and Protestant Bibles.  

In 19th-century America there were riots, including some with deaths, over the fact that some public schools wanted to allow Catholic kids to read the Catholic-Church-preferred bible edition (with slightly differing translation and slightly differing content when it comes to books included) for class bible readings instead of forcing them to read the Protestant-preferred version. Apparently, some Protestants thought that their children would be damned or something just by having those slightly different bibles in the classrooms being read by other kids. 

We're a weird species.

7 minutes ago, ariel said:

I hope not. They would probably behave like a bunch of insensitive rubes.  Maybe try to hand out a fundy track or two.

Yep. They've been seen in a DC Ethiopian restaurant and on an Edinburgh street, among other places. Not what you'd call acceptable cultural ambassadors. 

25 minutes ago, Ripley68 said:

Jilly did say that Derk was going to ESL classes. If he needs a translator to "minister" how can he possibly teach an ESL class?

Well, I actually know some people who've taught ESL in Korea and Japan for years on end while speaking hardly a word of the languages of those countries. I even know one who wrote a book on teaching ESL in Japan without knowing any Japanese beyond "hello" and "goodbye" really. So Der isn't the only one. 

On the other hand, maybe Der is a student in the class. Although he certainly needs it much less than the actual Duggars generally do. 

Edited April 20, 2017 by Churchhoney

[BitterApple]

Regarding Izzy, I think it's pretty common for kids to suck up to their parents when they want something, but that's behavior I usually associate with older children. Izzy is barely two, does he really have the mental capacity to scheme for a bite of apple? And why don't they just get him his own goddamned apple if he likes them so much? The kid's asking for fruit, not diamonds and gold, ffs.

For some reason I think they resent Izzy. The way they write about him makes it sound like he's some annoying burden they're forced to deal with rather than a toddler going through normal stages of development.

Edited April 20, 2017 by BitterApple

[JoanArc]

Quote

We're so outraged at all the Duggars all the time but I expect we'd be shocked shocked shocked to learn how many other people are saying the exact same things. And saying it to applause because this kind of thing is construed as hewing to the true traditions and making Christianity great again. The Duggs and Duggar adjacents just happen to be saying it on public media that reaches a lot of people who aren't in their groups. So we have a tendency to blame them, in particular, and think they're some kind of unique jerks.

Oh I know their beliefs are banal. More's the pity.

 

Quote

It all just feeds their worst delusions. I can't wait for them to be off tv so their fame starts to shrink and fade. Don't know when that'll ever be, though.

Oh, I agree with you there. I kind of hope it goes until there's enough marriages and endless babies that the whole thing will collapse without the TLC support. It might propel at least a few of them into the real world

 

Quote

For some reason I think they resent Izzy.

Just like Michelle seems to resent her blessings. You make a good point.

Edited April 20, 2017 by JoanArc

[doodlebug]

55 minutes ago, Mollie said:

, iBig problem:  The King James Version wasn't written in Spanish!

I'm sure its been translated to Spanish at some point, but I am sure Derick and Jill and their mission pals believe it is far better and Godly for everyone to have a King James Bible rather than a Catholic one; even if they can't read the KJV because its in English.

As far as ESL class, do we know that Derick is a teacher and not a student?  Maybe after several years of marriage to Jill who is barely literate and not articulate, he wants to brush up.

Edited April 20, 2017 by doodlebug

[GeeGolly]

3 hours ago, ariel said:

What I don't understand is that many of the people they are trying to preach to are Catholics & probably own a bible or have access to one. 

But is it the RIGHT Bible? KJB?

Oops, didn't realize I hadn't read the next page in the thread.

Edited April 20, 2017 by GeeGolly

[sometimesy]

28 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

Regarding Izzy, I think it's pretty common for kids to suck up to their parents when they want something, but that's behavior I usually associate with older children. Izzy is barely two, does he really have the mental capacity to scheme for a bite of apple? And why don't they just get him his own goddamned apple if he likes them so much? The kid's asking for fruit, not diamonds and gold, ffs.

For some reason I think they resent Izzy. The way they write about him makes it sound like he's some annoying burden they're forced to deal with rather than a toddler going through normal stages of development.

Whoops.. when I quoted the apple thing it wasn't a real quote. I was mocking the 'apple' incident when they were in Arkansas and Izzy wanted some of Jill's apple. I did not make that very clear. Sorry. I have no idea what Izzy does to manipulate them. I like to imagine he is like Stewie and he threatens to tell the family secrets if they don't let him play in his  time machine, and he has traps for Jill all around the house (falling shower curtains). 

[RazzleberryPie]

1 hour ago, Ripley68 said:

Jilly did say that Derk was going to ESL classes. If he needs a translator to "minister" how can he possibly teach an ESL class?

Maybe he can benefit from English as a Second Language classes. He needs to master English before he can try Spanish.

There's no way he can teach an ESL class, even advanced conversational classes where Spanish speakers just need some practice to perfect their English.

[MargeGunderson]

On 4/19/2017 at 5:16 PM, louannems said:

http://people.com/tv/jill-duggar-dillard-husband-derick-love-being-parents-far-from-mastering-it/

I really can't believe the Dullards are in People magazine again.  Derick claims that Izzy is manipulative!  And that his human nature is still there!  Oh, I feel so sorry for the way they are raising him!

Perhaps the Dullards need a reminder that Jesus was both (hu)man and God. It's in the Bible (even KJV).

[Churchhoney]

2 hours ago, sometimesy said:

Whoops.. when I quoted the apple thing it wasn't a real quote. I was mocking the 'apple' incident when they were in Arkansas and Izzy wanted some of Jill's apple. I did not make that very clear. Sorry. I have no idea what Izzy does to manipulate them. I like to imagine he is like Stewie and he threatens to tell the family secrets if they don't let him play in his  time machine, and he has traps for Jill all around the house (falling shower curtains). 

If only every Duggar couple produced a Stewie. Or six.

[Christina87]

3 hours ago, BitterApple said:

Regarding Izzy, I think it's pretty common for kids to suck up to their parents when they want something, but that's behavior I usually associate with older children. Izzy is barely two, does he really have the mental capacity to scheme for a bite of apple? And why don't they just get him his own goddamned apple if he likes them so much? The kid's asking for fruit, not diamonds and gold, ffs.

For some reason I think they resent Izzy. The way they write about him makes it sound like he's some annoying burden they're forced to deal with rather than a toddler going through normal stages of development.

They definitely seem to resent him, and don't do a good job of hiding it. I would love to see how different things would have been if they'd stayed in Arkansas. Sure, Jill was clingy and morose, lost in the big ole house, but if she'd had a baby, she wouldn't have time to visit derick at work, etc. I could see Jana being a regular, and the two of them having fun figuring out how to care for Izzy and get everything else done. I think the fact that they went out of the country so quickly made Izzy like a bad souvenir of a bad time. Jill missed her family, and simply lacked the coping skills to grieve and bond with Izzy at the same time. 

I also feel that Jill, for as clingy as she is, considers child rearing "woman's work," as JB was not too involved with the kids until they were school aged. I'm sure she saw someone like Jana being her child rearing partner in crime, but instead she is living in CA with derick invading her "mommy" territory. He said something about "tag team parenting," and for a couple who preaches the fundie way, Jill does a lot outside the home, and derick does a lot inside the home. On the other hand, I'm thinking derick expected Jill to work in some capacity, and he sees her wailing, lying around while her sisters clean her house and asks himself what happened to his life! I don't think either were totally honest about gender roles and children upfront, and they are paying the price with this child!

[YupItsMe]

I seem to have missed it, did they say if the baby they are expecting is a girl or boy?

[doodlebug]

26 minutes ago, Christina87 said:

They definitely seem to resent him, and don't do a good job of hiding it. I would love to see how different things would have been if they'd stayed in Arkansas. Sure, Jill was clingy and morose, lost in the big ole house, but if she'd had a baby, she wouldn't have time to visit derick at work, etc. I could see Jana being a regular, and the two of them having fun figuring out how to care for Izzy and get everything else done. I think the fact that they went out of the country so quickly made Izzy like a bad souvenir of a bad time. Jill missed her family, and simply lacked the coping skills to grieve and bond with Izzy at the same time. 

I also feel that Jill, for as clingy as she is, considers child rearing "woman's work," as JB was not too involved with the kids until they were school aged. I'm sure she saw someone like Jana being her child rearing partner in crime, but instead she is living in CA with derick invading her "mommy" territory. He said something about "tag team parenting," and for a couple who preaches the fundie way, Jill does a lot outside the home, and derick does a lot inside the home. On the other hand, I'm thinking derick expected Jill to work in some capacity, and he sees her wailing, lying around while her sisters clean her house and asks himself what happened to his life! I don't think either were totally honest about gender roles and children upfront, and they are paying the price with this child!

And, unfortunately, the child is paying the biggest price of all.  I think you're right, though, Jill, of all the older girls, was least capable of coping without the family nearby.  I also think, to a large extent, their choices in El Salvador are due to her clinginess and inability to cope without Derick by her side. Jill couldn't tolerate being in Arkansas, on the family compound, while Derick spent a typical workday in an office.  She surely would decompensate completely at the notion off being separated from her headship in Danger America for any length of time. I suspect that part of the bargain in going down there was Derick promising that they would only be separated briefly and infrequently.  I think that is one of the major reasons why the division of labor has changed.  Jill has to be with Derick every moment lest she expire from loneliness, therefore, she has to go out with Derick as he preaches to the heathens, and he's got to help wrangle Izzy because she is not able to cope on her own. 

I also think Jill has a fair amount of resentment towards Izzy, because she is already on her last nerve, barely surviving emotionally herself, and there he is, being a needy little toddler, expecting HER to take care of HIM.  She married Derick to be taken care of, remember the example her mother set.  It just didn't occur to Jill that so much of her baby's needs were going to be HER responsibility; her example of motherhood was Michelle; crankin' 'em out and handing 'em off.  She thought her life would magically work out just the same.

I think that, in Jill, there is a perfect storm of warped upbringing coupled with depression and anxiety, which has lead to the current situation.

Edited April 21, 2017 by doodlebug

[doodlebug]

8 minutes ago, YupItsMe said:

I seem to have missed it, did they say if the baby they are expecting is a girl or boy?

"It's a boy and Jill says the Salvadoreans refer to him as Samuelito, so we're betting on Samuel for his name, a darned sight better than Israel.

[Nysha]

24 minutes ago, doodlebug said:

I also think Jill has a fair amount of resentment towards Izzy, because she is already on her last nerve, barely surviving emotionally herself, and there he is, being a needy little toddler, expecting HER to take care of HIM.  She married Derick to be taken care of, remember the example her mother set.  It just didn't occur to Jill that so much of her baby's needs were going to be HER responsibility; her example of motherhood was Michelle; crankin' 'em out and handing 'em off.  She thought her life would magically work out just the same.

 

In addition to this, having her own baby is a lot different than raising her mother's babies. I'm sure she had moments when her siblings were behaving in ways out of her control, that she told herself that "my baby will never do that" and now that she has her baby and he is just as unpredictable and age-appropriately "disobedient" as her siblings and she is stuck with him.

[riverblue22]

5 hours ago, ginger90 said:

"Where we serve in Central America, Bibles are a commodity. Every Bible we purchase is gone immediately. Will you help us supply Bibles? Pledge $20 a month to purchase Bibles."

So a bible is a commodity, yup. Perhaps an adjective would help, Jill. Ugh.

Yes, bibles are a commodity that they can count.  They will finally be able to show something for their efforts--"we handed out 200 bibles during the last six months!"  So far, they have only been able to point to banana bread and candy as their gifts to the community.  And who knows, maybe Gothard gives credit for every Catholic bible taken out of circulation!

[ariel]

2 hours ago, Christina87 said:

He said something about "tag team parenting," and for a couple who preaches the fundie way, Jill does a lot outside the home, and derick does a lot inside the home.

What are these many things Jill does outside the home?

[WhineandCheez]

Quote

"Where we serve in Central America, Bibles are a commodity. Every Bible we purchase is gone immediately. Will you help us supply Bibles? Pledge $20 a month to purchase Bibles

"And while you are at it, also pledge so we can purchase pork bellies and Frozen concentrated orange juice (FCOG)" 

Disclaimer:  all my commodities background comes from dating a guy who traded but moreso, from watching "Trading Places" many times"

Quote

I seem to have missed it, did they say if the baby they are expecting is a girl or boy?

It will be whatever PEOPLE says it will be!!!

DONATE BITCHES!

Edited April 21, 2017 by WhineandCheez

[questionfear]

16 hours ago, Mollie said:

That's only true if you are looking at the Hebrew/Aramaic text.  English translations used by Jews come in many different versions.

This is especially true with Reform Judaism, where some versions of the prayerbooks will change to gender neutral or include the names of matriarchs where traditional texts only list the patriarchs.

[TresGatos]

20 hours ago, Lisa418722 said:

I don't have children, but how in the hell can a two year old be manipulative?  How dare Israel tell his "Papi" he loves him (even if he is wanting something). I guess human nature, in Derick's eyes is another sin???   My dog can look at me with those "puppy dog eyes" and make me melt and depending on what I'm eating, she might get a bite.  Does that make her manipulative as well?

Obviously you have failed in your blanket training of your dog. Nike!

Seriously though, you apparently treat your animal with more love and compassion than poor Izzy seems to get.

[Jynnan tonnix]

On 4/19/2017 at 5:42 PM, doodlebug said:

They're pathetic!  Is Derick trying to say that his goal as a parent is to eliminate Izzy's human nature?  How sad is that?  Also, if Izzy is 'manipulating' Derick by telling him he loves him, where did he learn that?  Kids learn from example.  As for Jill, claiming she asks for parenting advice all the time, I don't believe it for a second.  She never asks for guidance on anything else in her life (except maybe from her parental units). She's a Duggar, she has an inflated sense of her own abilities.  Just like she seemingly didn't ask anyone for help as she mismanaged her own labor and delivery, I don't think she is asking anyone's opinion as she mismanages her son's childhood, the little sinner.

In any case, their entire religion seems to rest of the fact that humans are always going to be miserable sinners because of their nature, no matter how hard they try. Thus the need for a savior. Find a person who never sins, and the entire premise is shot. So no matter how much they might sound as thought they are complaining, it's really some strange variety of humble bragging, reinforcing the necessity of Jesus. I hate to sound like a broken record, but, again, I just don't get it; how is a life constantly trying to balance striving to never sin while feeling that nothing you can ever do of your own nature can ever be anything but dirty rags anything even close to joyful?

As far as Israel being "manipulative", I'd say that it's simply a case of him responding to whatever positive reinforcement he gets.

[doodlebug]

35 minutes ago, Jynnan tonnix said:

In any case, their entire religion seems to rest of the fact that humans are always going to be miserable sinners because of their nature, no matter how hard they try. Thus the need for a savior. Find a person who never sins, and the entire premise is shot. So no matter how much they might sound as thought they are complaining, it's really some strange variety of humble bragging, reinforcing the necessity of Jesus. I hate to sound like a broken record, but, again, I just don't get it; how is a life constantly trying to balance striving to never sin while feeling that nothing you can ever do of your own nature can ever be anything but dirty rags anything even close to joyful?

As far as Israel being "manipulative", I'd say that it's simply a case of him responding to whatever positive reinforcement he gets.

It just makes me so sad that they not only think their kids are godawful sinners, but they treat them as such.  How can anyone listen to their 2 year old tell them he loves them and then turn around and complain that he's manipulative?  I am a little relieved that someone probably says those words to Izzy or he wouldn't know them; but c'mon! 

More personal stories: my nephew died in an accident at age 5.  If anyone would ever suggest to me that he didn't go directly to heaven or that he had ever committed any sins at all in his whole lifetime, I'd strangle them where they stood.  My mom had some cousins who were born again fundies.  Despite that, she had fond childhood memories and we would visit them and my mom kept in touch by phone and mail.  When my nephew died, these wackadoos sent my sister and her husband a letter.  Not a letter of condolence; but a letter telling them that, as evil Catholics, they were going to hell unless they repented and found the Lord.  So, if they ever wanted to see their son again, they'd better get out there and get saved.  Or as my sister said, "It was a ransom note from Jesus."  Anyway, after a lot of thought, my sister decided to show my mother the letter just so she'd know.  My mother never saw them or spoke to them again; tore up every letter they ever sent without opening it.  Good riddance.

Edited April 21, 2017 by doodlebug

[Jellybeans]

5 minutes ago, doodlebug said:

It just makes me so sad that they not only think their kids are godawful sinners, but they treat them as such.  How can anyone listen to their 2 year old tell them he loves them and then turn around and complain that he's manipulative?  I am a little relieved that someone probably says those words to Izzy or he wouldn't know them; but c'mon! 

More personal stories: my nephew died in an accident at age 5.  If anyone would ever suggest to me that he didn't go directly to heaven or that he had ever committed any sins at all in his whole lifetime, I'd strangle them where they stood.  My mom had some cousins who were born again fundies.  Despite that, she had fond childhood memories and we would visit them and my mom kept in touch by phone and mail.  When my nephew died, these wackadoos sent my sister and her husband a letter.  Not a letter of condolence; but a letter telling them that, as evil Catholics, they were going to hell unless they repented and found the Lord.  So, if they ever wanted to see their son again, they'd better get out there and get saved.  Or as my sister said, "It was a ransom note from Jesus."  Anyway, after a lot of thought, my sister decided to show my mother the letter just so she'd know.  My mother never saw them or spoke to them again; tore up every letter they ever sent without opening it.  Good riddance.

I am sorry about your nephew.  Those kind of comments are not restricted to fundies...a Baptist family member asked me if I was sure I'd see my daughter in heaven again since we were of different religions.

I blame those kind of comments on stupid people. 

[TaxNerd]

19 hours ago, ginger90 said:

"Where we serve in Central America, Bibles are a commodity. Every Bible we purchase is gone immediately. 

This terrible sentence has me picturing locals trading bibles as payment for goods and services, where they are eventually resold to the Dullards.  

[doodlebug]

3 minutes ago, Jellybeans said:

I am sorry about your nephew.  Those kind of comments are not restricted to fundies...a Baptist family member asked me if I was sure I'd see my daughter in heaven again since we were of different religions.

I blame those kind of comments on stupid people. 

Sorry for your loss, it's been 26 years next week; but, this time of year, he's very close.  And, yes, people are stupid.  After the funeral, my sister remarked, "I will never again go to a funeral and not know what to say.  And I sure as he** won't say something stupid"  And she didn't.   She's now next to her boy forever.

As for the Duggars, I believe there is a family picture in the Dictionary to illustrate the word 'stupid'.

[Jellybeans]

I lost my daughter several years ago but it does not make me an expert on what to say- so I say as little as possible and as much as necessary.  One must be willing to listen more and talk less...hard to do when religion gets in the way.  

Everyone is different when it comes to loss.

[StaceyNotStacie]

21 hours ago, BitterApple said:

Regarding Izzy, I think it's pretty common for kids to suck up to their parents when they want something, but that's behavior I usually associate with older children. Izzy is barely two, does he really have the mental capacity to scheme for a bite of apple? And why don't they just get him his own goddamned apple if he likes them so much? The kid's asking for fruit, not diamonds and gold, ffs.

For some reason I think they resent Izzy. The way they write about him makes it sound like he's some annoying burden they're forced to deal with rather than a toddler going through normal stages of development.

I wonder if Jill resents him because of how he was born. They had the whole granola home birth going on and he not only was born in a hospital, but he was a C Section. As soon as that happened, poor little Izzy went on her sh!tlist. All of her plans changed after that. She had to wait longer to get pregnant again and Jessa beat her to baby #2. If there was PPD, he was probably blamed for that and he was probably a nuisance as soon as he started moving because she didn't have helpers since she was in Central America. 

[BitterApple]

Just now, Stacey1014 said:

I wonder if Jill resents him because of how he was born. They had the whole granola home birth going on and he not only was born in a hospital, but he was a C Section. As soon as that happened, poor little Izzy went on her sh!tlist. All of her plans changed after that. She had to wait longer to get pregnant again and Jessa beat her to baby #2. If there was PPD, he was probably blamed for that and he was probably a nuisance as soon as he started moving because she didn't have helpers since she was in Central America. 

I think it definitely had something to do with it. After all, she was supposed to be the "midwife" and the "expert" in all things baby. Not only did she royally fuck up her delivery and miss obvious signs Izzy was in distress and needed a hospital, she had to let the real professionals step in and clean up her mess. Huge blow to the ego. I also think as doodlebug noted, she was given a completely unrealistic picture of motherhood thanks to growing up in a household where her own mother did little else besides incubate and sip Starbucks. I think like most naive, sheltered 13 year-olds, Jill had a mental picture of what life was "supposed" to be like and she can't cope now that her reality isn't measuring up. 

[Christina87]

16 hours ago, ariel said:

What are these many things Jill does outside the home?

Jill doesn't do anything that normal people would consider an accomplishment, or even close to a job, but she does seem to hand out one crayon at a time as much as Derick, and bake banana bread for Bible studies, or pretend she's a doctor with her Doppler. Poor jilly and her back-breaking work! Meeechelle never had to do anything like that. I think Jill thought that being a mother was some privileged position that meant she sat home and blathered about the joy of this blessed season of life, while other people did the actual work for her. 

[doodlebug]

3 hours ago, Stacey1014 said:

I wonder if Jill resents him because of how he was born. They had the whole granola home birth going on and he not only was born in a hospital, but he was a C Section. As soon as that happened, poor little Izzy went on her sh!tlist. All of her plans changed after that. She had to wait longer to get pregnant again and Jessa beat her to baby #2. If there was PPD, he was probably blamed for that and he was probably a nuisance as soon as he started moving because she didn't have helpers since she was in Central America. 

I think this is very likely.  Also, Jill isn't the sharpest tool in the shed, but she knows that there were many, many occasions where she bragged about her amazing midwifery skills and the incredible home birth experience she was planning on the show.  Then, things not only turned out differently; they went wrong in half a dozen different ways; all of it preserved for posterity.  So, not only did Jill's birth not turn out the way she wanted, it was recorded and seen by millions.

There is also quite a bit of research out there on postpartum depression that demonstrates that women who have difficult pregnancies and/or births are more prone to it.  And, of course, PPD, especially if not recognized and treated, can lead to problems bonding with the baby.

ETA: Despite her past experience, I expect that the Dillards will be returning to Arkansas soon to film footage for the lead up to the next birth episode.  I have no doubt that Jill intends to VBAC, probably at home; and that we'll be treated to multiple talking heads where Jill the Midwife, tells us all how much planning and preparation she has done.  While I'd like to think that part of that planning and preparation will be done in consultation with a nurse midwife and/or board certified OB/GYN; I doubt Jill is growing a brain in addition to a baby and I suspect she will feel her own 'expertise' is sufficient.

I also suspect that the deal with TLC is contingent on filming the birth and that local hospitals and practitioners are probably not willing to give unfettered access to cameras; which means the choice to try to deliver at home is going to be an economic decision more than a personal one.  They'd probably have to take a pay cut if TLC can't film at will and JB is never going to allow that if it can be avoided.

Edited April 21, 2017 by doodlebug
fix grammar

[cmr2014]

3 hours ago, BitterApple said:

I think it definitely had something to do with it. After all, she was supposed to be the "midwife" and the "expert" in all things baby. Not only did she royally fuck up her delivery and miss obvious signs Izzy was in distress and needed a hospital, she had to let the real professionals step in and clean up her mess. Huge blow to the ego. I also think as doodlebug noted, she was given a completely unrealistic picture of motherhood thanks to growing up in a household where her own mother did little else besides incubate and sip Starbucks. I think like most naive, sheltered 13 year-olds, Jill had a mental picture of what life was "supposed" to be like and she can't cope now that her reality isn't measuring up. 

I think there's a lot of truth to this, but I also think that a lot of what we see as aloofness and resentment is Jill trying to emulate her mother's parenting style. How she treated her "buddies" may have been warm and loving, but now she is a mother and has the responsibility to "train" her child.

[Mojitogirl]

It makes me beyond sad that a man who, through all indications, was raised in a loving environment, would consider a 2 year-old saying "I love you" TO HIS PARENTS as a manipulative being. It's mind boggling. I have a 4 year old and while he certainly wheedles me with his little face and smile when he wants an Oreo and even says I love you, the bottom line is that he DOES love me because I am his mother, probably the most important person (along with his father) in his life.  And regardless of the outcome he gets, he really does love me. 

I want to think that this quote is taken out of context. He can't be that stupid, that bad, such a shitty father. It tells me all I need to know about how they treat him, see him, and are raising him. 

[Sew Sumi]

3 hours ago, doodlebug said:

I think this is very likely.  Also, Jill isn't the sharpest tool in the shed, but she knows that there were many, many occasions where she bragged about her amazing midwifery skills and the incredible home birth experience she was planning on the show.  Then, things not only turned out differently; they went wrong in half a dozen different ways; all of it preserved for posterity.  So, not only did Jill's birth not turn out the way she wanted, it was recorded and seen by millions.

There is also quite a bit of research out there on postpartum depression that demonstrates that women who have difficult pregnancies and/or births are more prone to it.  And, of course, PPD, especially if not recognized and treated, can lead to problems bonding with the baby.

ETA: Despite her past experience, I expect that the Dillards will be returning to Arkansas soon to film footage for the lead up to the next birth episode.  I have no doubt that Jill intends to VBAC, probably at home; and that we'll be treated to multiple talking heads where Jill the Midwife, tells us all how much planning and preparation she has done.  While I'd like to think that part of that planning and preparation will be done in consultation with a nurse midwife and/or board certified OB/GYN; I doubt Jill is growing a brain in addition to a baby and I suspect she will feel her own 'expertise' is sufficient.

I also suspect that the deal with TLC is contingent on filming the birth and that local hospitals and practitioners are probably not willing to give unfettered access to cameras; which means the choice to try to deliver at home is going to be an economic decision more than a personal one.  They'd probably have to take a pay cut if TLC can't film at will and JB is never going to allow that if it can be avoided.

I'm pretty sure you can't VBAC at home with a lay midwife in Arkansas. I know I saw this somewhere. 

[lascuba]

3 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

I'm pretty sure you can't VBAC at home with a lay midwife in Arkansas. I know I saw this somewhere. 

Isn't there still some doubt that Jill even had a midwife when she was at home? No one but whatever family was present was shown on screen, and the lay midwife that was assumed to be Jill's made a public statement claiming she had nothing to do with that birth and lambasted Jill over her choices. IIRC, the conclusion was that if anyone was there, it was a student midwife friend of Jill's that attended--the Queery girl, I think? 

There are fanatical natural birth fans who don't care about laws  and can easily find "midwives" who will attend to them at home. It might be harder for Jill because those midwives wouldn't want to risk a high profile disaster, but it might be easier for her because fundies gonna fundie. Jill being Jill, I think she will absolutely attempt a VBAC at home, even if she has to do it without any type of attendant. And I don't think TLC is even a factor for her. She wants that crunchy granola birth of her dreams.

[Churchhoney]

39 minutes ago, Mojitogirl said:

It makes me beyond sad that a man who, through all indications, was raised in a loving environment, would consider a 2 year-old saying "I love you" TO HIS PARENTS as a manipulative being. It's mind boggling. I have a 4 year old and while he certainly wheedles me with his little face and smile when he wants an Oreo and even says I love you, the bottom line is that he DOES love me because I am his mother, probably the most important person (along with his father) in his life.  And regardless of the outcome he gets, he really does love me. 

I want to think that this quote is taken out of context. He can't be that stupid, that bad, such a shitty father. It tells me all I need to know about how they treat him, see him, and are raising him. 

Well, this child-of-sin stuff is all over the place, angry Calvinism is breaking out all over, and so on. As usual with all the Duggars, I think Derick is just parroting something that's very much in the air in the conservative Protestant super-religiosity circles. I'm sure that, given a lot of the stuff he's surrounded with, he thinks that this is what's required to be a good parent. This is what they're being told is loving and absolutely necessary so their kid doesn't go to hell. Seriously.

This set of ideas is all over the place, here and here and here -- just to show you a few of the places these very ideas are being loudly preached.

http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/portraits-of-grace/read/articles/your-childs-greatest-need-13594.html

http://familyfortress.org/2013/05/15/ten-keys-to-raising-godly-children/

http://www.theheritageconnection.com/index.php/resources/articles/8-5-maxims-for-parents

And that whole gang that Bin is "speaking" with in June or whenever -- they're heavily into this. 

[doodlebug]

11 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

I'm pretty sure you can't VBAC at home with a lay midwife in Arkansas. I know I saw this somewhere. 

Why not?  There are licensed professional midwives doing VBAC's at home in other states where CPM's are legal, I don't know how the state could prevent it.  For that matter, Jill isn't a licensed midwife, her previous work experience was with midwives who had problems maintaining their licensure and Anna, at least, had a home birth using a doula who isn't licensed or trained to attend births.  If Jill chooses to stay home and isn't using a legitimate practitioner; she can and will do whatever she wants.  There is no law that says anybody has to seek regular medical care with licensed caregivers for any medical condition including pregnancy/childbirth.

Did a little checking, apparently only about half of Arkansas hospitals even allow a trial of labor for women with prior cesareans and the overall VBAC rate is a miserable 3% (should be at least 50%, if not higher).  A part of this probably stems from the fact that Arkansas is very rural and a lot of hospitals don't have easy access to anesthesia or surgeons or the staffing needed for an emergency; but it looks like even Little Rock has a limited number of hospitals where a TOLAC is permitted.

[doodlebug]

5 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

Well, this child-of-sin stuff is all over the place, angry Calvinism is breaking out all over, and so on. As usual with all the Duggars, I think Derick is just parroting something that's very much in the air in the conservative Protestant super-religiosity circles. I'm sure that, given a lot of the stuff he's surrounded with, he thinks that this is what's required to be a good parent. This is what they're being told is loving and absolutely necessary so their kid doesn't go to hell. Seriously.

This set of ideas is all over the place, here and here and here -- just to show you a few of the places these very ideas are being loudly preached.

http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/portraits-of-grace/read/articles/your-childs-greatest-need-13594.html

http://familyfortress.org/2013/05/15/ten-keys-to-raising-godly-children/

http://www.theheritageconnection.com/index.php/resources/articles/8-5-maxims-for-parents

And that whole gang that Bin is "speaking" with in June or whenever -- they're heavily into this. 

From one of the above links:   'Even before birth, your baby's little heart was already programmed for sin and selfishness. The inclination toward depravity is such that, given free reign, every baby has the potential to become a monster.'

These people are a bunch of sickos.

[Catfin]

52 minutes ago, doodlebug said:

Why not?  There are licensed professional midwives doing VBAC's at home in other states where CPM's are legal, I don't know how the state could prevent it.  For that matter, Jill isn't a licensed midwife, her previous work experience was with midwives who had problems maintaining their licensure and Anna, at least, had a home birth using a doula who isn't licensed or trained to attend births.  If Jill chooses to stay home and isn't using a legitimate practitioner; she can and will do whatever she wants.  There is no law that says anybody has to seek regular medical care with licensed caregivers for any medical condition including pregnancy/childbirth.

Did a little checking, apparently only about half of Arkansas hospitals even allow a trial of labor for women with prior cesareans and the overall VBAC rate is a miserable 3% (should be at least 50%, if not higher).  A part of this probably stems from the fact that Arkansas is very rural and a lot of hospitals don't have easy access to anesthesia or surgeons or the staffing needed for an emergency; but it looks like even Little Rock has a limited number of hospitals where a TOLAC is permitted.

An unattended home VBAC. It is all fun and games until mom and baby dies or has  permanent, major damage but lives. 

 

These re freaks have been incredibly fortunate with their mostly healthy litter and Pwecious Miwacle Josie.  They'd be challenged with a kid needing a regular nebulizer for asthma, much less something serious.

[JoanArc]

Quote

Did a little checking, apparently only about half of Arkansas hospitals even allow a trial of labor for women with prior cesareans and the overall VBAC rate is a miserable 3%

For Jill's sake I hope she goes to a good hospital. Michelle needed a lifeflight to the hospital with Josie and she wasn't even in labor.

Quote

I think there's a lot of truth to this, but I also think that a lot of what we see as aloofness and resentment is Jill trying to emulate her mother's parenting style.

Agreed, but she forgot the first 8 or so years where Michelle actuality did work and parent. Buddying doesn't count, sadly.

Quote

The inclination toward depravity is such that, given free reign, every baby has the potential to become a monster.

Incredibly tight reign produced Josh. At some point people are just gonna be whatever they really are.

Quote

They'd be challenged with a kid needing a regular nebulizer for asthma, much less something serious.

One kid on a vent, or with CP, or cognitive issues they can't hide, or missing a limb, etc. would BREAK Jill. Honestly, it's crush a lot of their belief.

Edited April 22, 2017 by JoanArc

[Marshmallow Mollie]

And don't forget Zika. There could be a birth defects requiring immediate care.

[Love2dance]

3 hours ago, doodlebug said:

From one of the above links:   'Even before birth, your baby's little heart was already programmed for sin and selfishness. The inclination toward depravity is such that, given free reign, every baby has the potential to become a monster.'

These people are a bunch of sickos.

That is the worst thing I have ever heard. I can't imagine looking at a sweet innocent newborn and thinking that.

[sometimesy]

12 hours ago, doodlebug said:

From one of the above links:   'Even before birth, your baby's little heart was already programmed for sin and selfishness. The inclination toward depravity is such that, given free reign, every baby has the potential to become a monster.'

These people are a bunch of sickos.

 

9 hours ago, Love2dance said:

That is the worst thing I have ever heard. I can't imagine looking at a sweet innocent newborn and thinking that.

Prolife peeps are doing it wrong. 

[Minivanessa]

I do think that Derick is all into that Calvinist "baby sinner" stuff. I can't remember the details, but several months ago he posted some comment about Iz that gave me pause. Something about Iz being willful, I think. Anyway, I remember thinking, holy carp, this is a BABY he's talking about. 

I hope that Derick doesn't go as far as the horrible Pearls and get into baby-beating and blanket training. But lest we forget, his Duggar parents-in-law have endorsed the Pearls, and not all that long ago either. 

[Mollie]

1 hour ago, Jeeves said:

I hope that Derick doesn't go as far as the horrible Pearls and get into baby-beating and blanket training. But lest we forget, his Duggar parents-in-law have endorsed the Pearls, and not all that long ago either. 

There's no doubt in my mind that they are using 'the rod' on their child.  It's what the Duggars have always believed in.  And remember that Jill was the one accused of being the big tattle-tale by several of her siblings.  In other words, she was the one who turned them in so they would be beaten.

When the kids were interviewed by police in connection with Josh's sexual abuse, they all testified that their parents beat them with a rod:

"Inv. Taylor asked [redacted child's name] about getting spanked. [redacted child's name] said that when [redacted child's name] is bad that [redacted child's name] mother and dad spank [redacted child's name]. Inv. Taylor asked what they use to spank. [redacted child's name] said they have a rod. Inv. Taylor asked if they do this to all the kids and [redacted child's name] said yes."

Using a rod to beat their children and hitting babies while 'blanket training' are Duggar family child rearing practices they learned from Michael and Debi Pearl.  Michelle admited in her blog that she used blanket training on her infants by beating them when they tried to crawl off a blanket on the floor.  The Duggars took up this form of child abuse after Michelle's first breakdown when she couldn't handle parenting seven children.

 

[NoThyme]

That book and their evil child rearing ways are the number one reason I hate that they are on TV. The publicity and public exposure serve to spread this type of thinking to others easily.

[Sew Sumi]

I needed booze, and lots of it, to get through that book. It's sickening. All the booze in the world didn't help me get through just a couple chapters of the equally repellent "Created to be His Helpmeet." 

Poor, poor Izzy and Samuelito. They don't stand a chance with these fools as their parents "training" them up. 

[toodles]

18 hours ago, Churchhoney said:

Well, this child-of-sin stuff is all over the place, angry Calvinism is breaking out all over, and so on. As usual with all the Duggars, I think Derick is just parroting something that's very much in the air in the conservative Protestant super-religiosity circles. I'm sure that, given a lot of the stuff he's surrounded with, he thinks that this is what's required to be a good parent. This is what they're being told is loving and absolutely necessary so their kid doesn't go to hell. Seriously.

This set of ideas is all over the place, here and here and here -- just to show you a few of the places these very ideas are being loudly preached.

 

http://familyfortress.org/2013/05/15/ten-keys-to-raising-godly-children/

 

And that whole gang that Bin is "speaking" with in June or whenever -- they're heavily into this. 

This is from the above link:

5) Protect Your Children

In a culture that is infiltrated with humanistic thought, sexual immorality, ungodly media, pedophiles, and false teachers, to name but a few, it is absolutely essential that parents take responsibility for their children’s wellbeing. A major part of protection is to teach children truth so they will recognize lies that are seeking to take root in their hearts. Parents must have a fresh realization that it is not primarily the church’s responsibility to protect the mind or to train their child. It is their God ordained duty!  J.I. Packer writes of the Puritan family:

It was the husband’s responsibility to channel the family into religion; to take them to church on the Lord’s day, and the oversee the sanctifying of that entire day in the home; to catechize the children, to teach them the faith; to examine the whole family after each sermon, to see how much had been retained and understood, and to fill in any gaps in understanding that might remain; To lead the family in worship daily, ideally twice a day, and to set a Godly example at all times and in all matters. To this end he must take time to learn the faith that he is charged to teach. 

Can you imagine what a difference it would make if fathers re-instituted this spiritual discipline in their homes? Dads, I challenge you to make family devotions a priority.

Parents must shield their children by monitoring television, installing filters on internet, regulating and overseeing the use of cell phones, and reviewing books and materials that are used at school. Also, they must safeguard their children from a society filled with pedophiles by not allowing them to be alone with anyone (even friend or relative) they do not completely know or trust. Protection also includes training children to resist and report any improper touch.

JB fell down on the job in a big way on this.  They knew the pedophile in their midst.  They did a damn fine job of protecting the perv, but Jill and her sisters?  Not so much.

Edited April 22, 2017 by toodles