Jill, Derick & the Kids: Moving On!!

[JenCarroll]

You really think she really knows what here baby is like? All she cares about is one baby down and 19 more to go.

Oh, I just realized what you did there! Of course, it HAS to be twenty. lol

(I might be on some fairly heavy duty meds, so forgive me for being slow on the uptake.)

[Happyfatchick]

Plenty of Moms I've associated with have had birth plans. I think it's a product of the society we live in where every woman wants to feel like the only person ever to be pregnant, it's not just a Duggar thing. I don't doubt it's a good idea to have an informed opinion of what you would like to happen but too many people treat their birth plan like the Bible.

I've had two babies and my birth plan with both was to labor at home as long as possible and that was it. I succeeded in that with my first but with my second I was induced. In my view, once I step foot in the hospital it's up to them to see me and my child through a successful delivery. Birth plan or no birth plan. Granted, my mom always attends my child's births as she is a nurse so I trust her to make sure things are being done properly but I also have a very highly rated hospital in my area and I trust their staff.

Jill was just stupid and selfish and I don't feel one ounce of sorry for her. She's lucky things turned out the way they did and after this latest media frenzy regarding her heroic birth, I've opted out of watching any of the TLC programming related to her specifically. I just can't anymore.

I'm CLEARLY no good with this quote thing - I only meant to copy the few lines about "once I set foot in the hospital it's up to them to see me and my child through a successful delivery".

 

The thing is:  if she wasn't going to put herself in their hands and trust them to do the right thing, why on earth did she GO there?  What did she expect?? 

 

I had 3 babies.  Natural, epidural, and c-sec, in that order.  With the c-sec, my water broke.  No contractions, and arguing every step of the way - he was 2 weeks early and I had plans for every single minute of that 2 weeks!  I wasn't ready.  However, when I got to the hospital and they swiped me with the pH thing (is that right, Doodle?) and said, "Yep, it's amnio...", I gave over everything I'd imagined about that birth.  Still no contractions.  The doc was concerned about the timeline, and laboring without fluid (if I remember correctly).  Pitosin.  It worked, and the contractions started.  They went into me and put those nodes on the baby's head to monitor him more closely.  Not far in, the doc was watching the monitor (we all were) and the heart rate dropped drastically with every contraction.  Drastically.  Cord around the neck (twice as it turns out).  Doc is literally pulling his hair and sweating and says, "K, that's it, we gotta go!"  He leaned over to me and said "Do you understand what's happening?  We're going to have to do a C-section and get this baby out.  I'm very sorry, but we have to do this to save his life."  I will never forget reaching up and grabbing his shirt and hissing, "I don't care WHAT you have to do, you get this baby out and don't worry about ME!!!"

 

I'm just saying.  When you make the trip to the hospital, you (and the hospital personnel) have sort of an assumption that you are there, in that spot, because you expect them to USE the skills you went there to get.  For Derick to say there's no shame in it - what the HECK, big guy??  Hellllllll NO there's no shame in doing what has to be done to save your baby's life.  I just Don't.Get.It.  What possible difference does it make if she had a birth plan (and contingency plans) or whether she's disappointed she didn't get to follow said birth plan?  When you run into problems with deliveries, and you get in the car to get to an expert - that's it.  Game over.  Following a different plan now: the end. 

[Hpmec]

The difference between the reactions of Izzy's grandmothers could not be greater. Michelle was all about the birth process and her pride in Jill for being a "trooper." Cathy, on the other hand, expressed her confidence that as a new father Derick will understand and appreciate for the first time how much she loves him because he will love his child with that same intensity. That is a beautiful and very true sentiment.

Izzy is lucky to have Cathy as his grandmother. I hope she will play a significant role in his life.

[salvame]

Everyone talks about how great it was for Jessa and Ben to have the extra time to get to know each other before marrying, but driving to and from work and eating lunch together ( extra time) are seen as Jill's neurotic neediness. I don't think that's quite fair. Because that was really a big chunk of the only time they had together before the baby came, and I hope they were able to enjoy it and learn a lot about each other.

 

I'm willing to give them a "bye" on this one, if only that I like the fact that they only have one vehicle, especially since the rest of the family is obsessed with large, gas guzzling vehicles.  Every little bit helps the environment.

Edited April 19, 2015 by salvame

[jmt111]

The other issue no one likes to mention is there is the personality through the eyes of the mother and the actual personality of the child. In an genuine relationship the space between the two isn't all that large. But let's face it, that's an enormous gap between Michelle and her children, and if Jill's early days are any indication, there is some possibility she may go down this road as well.

Yes there's a lot of power to be gained by withholding interest, love & affection

[Fostersmom]

Ehhh…. given Israel was like 27 seconds old when she gave the interview, I wouldn't read too much into the lack of personality traits given by his parents. He's barely 2 weeks old today, he might just now be showing some traits they could actually talk about. 

[Quof]

I'm willing to give them a "bye" on this one, if only that I like the fact that they only have one vehicle, especially since the rest of the family is obsessed with large, gas guzzling vehicles.  Every little bit helps the environment.

But making two extra round trips every day negates any savings in fuel.  

[JoanArc]

Yes there's a lot of power to be gained by withholding interest, love & affection

So Jill is Lucile Bluth? For those of you that aren't fans - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRl2tHxbDfo

[Emme]

Oh, they are all individuals from minute one, and every day their personality develops more. But sure, people change a lot and it's not unusual to see the temperament shift at transition points like infant-to-child, child-to-adolescent. Part of the fun of parenthood is that your kids will always surprise you.

So true JenCarroll! Seeing personalities emerge is such a fun part of parenthood. All four of my kids have had the exact same temperament from birth. It's really interesting to see (and they all have different temperaments from each other). I know of other children, however, who really change a lot through the years.

Of course, it's entirely possible that Jill will never be clued in on the individual traits of her children, as she appears to be on the MEchelle track of incubating, birthing, rinse and repeat.

[GEML]

My children were dramatic changers (one had colic, one is on the spectrum) so it was more important that ever to be very attuned to them as individuals and paying attention to their personalities and temperaments. But just because they changed doesn't mean they didn't have them!

[Kbo]

After having a c-section, my doctor advised not trying to get pregnant again for at least eighteen months. It makes me wonder what fundies do in this situation-do they make any attempt to delay getting pregnant? If she gets pregnant again quickly, won't that make a VBAC inadvisable? Did Michelle space her pregnancies out after her c-sections?

[GEML]

No. Even after a vaginal birth its best to wait at least a full year to eighteen months in order to allow the mother's body enough time to build up enough nutrients for the next baby.

[Fostersmom]

My oldest nephew was an emergency C section almost 20 years ago and the other 2 were VBAC births. As far as I know, my sister wasn't told a vaginal birth was out of the question with either of the other 2. 

[BitterApple]

I think the difference is Jill claimed the doctor "promised" her VBAC's in the future. I can't see any medical professional making that guarantee. He likely said it was a possibility and Jill, in typical Duggar fashion, twisted his words to suit her agenda.

I just read the People article at the gym and Lord, that baby looks exactly like Boob, especially through the nose and mouth.

[Seashell Lover]

We have to remember Dill hears what she wants to hear and if she doesn't like what she hears she twists everything around.

[Ljohnson1987]

Jill would be devastated if she had to have C-Sections from now on.

[3 is enough]

 

My oldest nephew was an emergency C section almost 20 years ago and the other 2 were VBAC births. As far as I know, my sister wasn't told a vaginal birth was out of the question with either of the other 2.

Ah, but here's the difference:  She was told it wasn't out of the question, but not "assured that the next one would be a VBAC".  Jill seems to thinks that #2 is guaranteed to be a VBAC. She is setting herself up for some major disappointment, IMO.

[Wellfleet]

Jill would be devastated if she had to have C-Sections from now on.

 

True. And if that's the case, then according to what the Duggars claim they believe, that would be God's will, wouldn't it? But we all know Jill would never accept that. And that's only one of the many things that's baffling about this bunch.

[Fostersmom]

Ah, but here's the difference:  She was told it wasn't out of the question, but not "assured that the next one would be a VBAC".  Jill seems to thinks that #2 is guaranteed to be a VBAC. She is setting herself up for some major disappointment, IMO.

 

What I subtly was trying to point out was 20 years ago it wasn't even brought up to my sister. There's a lot of posters who seem to be working off very out dated practices from when they had their kids when they also post about their grandkids. Some have the belief VBAC isn't even possible when it very much is a realistic goal and everyday occurrence in the times we live in. Jill having 1 c section in this day and age is anything but an automatic problem situation like it would have been in the past. Even with my second nephew (16 years old), who was 11 days overdue, yes they wanted to potentially induce, but they weren't scheduling for a c section. It was always planned to be natural unless an emergency came up. 

[Wellfleet]

The difference between the reactions of Izzy's grandmothers could not be greater. Michelle was all about the birth process and her pride in Jill for being a "trooper." Cathy, on the other hand, expressed her confidence that as a new father Derick will understand and appreciate for the first time how much she loves him because he will love his child with that same intensity. That is a beautiful and very true sentiment.

Izzy is lucky to have Cathy as his grandmother. I hope she will play a significant role in his life.

 

Agree totally. I think both Boob & Me-chelle consider every child or grandchild they get as just another point in their own Getting-to-Heaven reward book. They have a baby, or one of their kids does, and they get another punch on their card. While Boob has shown some interest in knowing his kids on a personal level, Me-chelle has never done anything but completely fake that, for the cameras only. And neither one of them seems very interested in any of the grandchildren, despite the lukewarm lip service paid when Josh announced he was taking the FRC job.

[truthtalk2014]

Don't the Duggars still own a car dealership? and couldn't they get them a great deal on a car? 

 

All they have to do is take one of those checks from People and go buy a car.  Hopefully a hybrid being that Jill has to drive DerrickDullard to everything.  

[JenCarroll]

What I subtly was trying to point out was 20 years ago it wasn't even brought up to my sister. There's a lot of posters who seem to be working off very out dated practices from when they had their kids when they also post about their grandkids. Some have the belief VBAC isn't even possible when it very much is a realistic goal and everyday occurrence in the times we live in. Jill having 1 c section in this day and age is anything but an automatic problem situation like it would have been in the past. Even with my second nephew (16 years old), who was 11 days overdue, yes they wanted to potentially induce, but they weren't scheduling for a c section. It was always planned to be natural unless an emergency came up.

About 20 years ago VBAC's were kind of the hot thing (I know this because I also have a 20 year old daughter) and now some practitioners are backing off that. But I'd think most of us here are aware that VBAC is possible, given Michelle Duggar had about fourteen of them.

I'm sure what the doctor told Jill was that he saw no obstacle to a VBAC from the condition of her uterus, and I'm even more sure that Jill herself was the one who brought it up (probably while she was instructing him to stitch her up "real good," as if he otherwise might not have done so). The doctor wouldn't say she definitely could have a vaginal delivery next time, because he can't possibly know that. She may need a c-section in the future -- anyone might -- and the fact that she appears to have been unreasonably determined not to have it this time, and is already talking about not having one again makes people concerned about her priorities.

Edited April 19, 2015 by JenCarroll

[hlemommy]

My oldest nephew was an emergency C section almost 20 years ago and the other 2 were VBAC births. As far as I know, my sister wasn't told a vaginal birth was out of the question with either of the other 2.

My aunts daughter was c section bc the baby weighed 11 pounds almost 12, my aunts hips were not wide enough to have a vbac. The doctor told her that she could only have 3 c sections and her chance of a vbac was slim to none. Needless to say she only has 3 children. This was in sc tho so I'm sure Arkansas is different. I hope for izzys sake that jill doesn't make a football team and just adores the few children she has.

Wishful thinking

I could be wrong but vbac is vaginal delivery right? If not my whole post is screwed up

Edited April 19, 2015 by hlemommy

[Quof]

Michelle probably guaranteed that the next one would be a VBAC, not the doctor. Doctors don't make guarantees.

I once dated a guy whose sister was an OB/GYN.  She said "You should have babies.  I'll deliver them all and I promise it won't hurt."

 

I didn't take her up on the offer.

[JenCarroll]

That's the concern. There is a limit to how many C sections one woman can have. I know most modern practitioners don't give a first-time mother a hard limit; it varies from woman to woman and depends on the condition of her uterine tissue. But three or four is most often the tipping point. Doctors strongly emphasize limiting the number of c-sections because of the consequences of over stretching the uterine tissue. The uterus can rupture, and even in this day and age, that's nearly always fatal.

So I guess the thing we wonder about Jill is, suppose she does have to have more c-sections. IF THAT HAPPENS, is she so completely determined to have a very large brood that she'd take that risk?

Edited April 19, 2015 by JenCarroll

[Micks Picks]

Her body, her risk, her choice.  She'll pray about it, God will give her every indication that the answer is no, but she will interpret it as yes, and she'll be holier than thou and do what she wants.  No sympathy here.

[Seashell Lover]

I just saw a perfect T-shirt for Dill. It had a picture of a Dill Pickle on it and it said I am kida of a big Dill. Perfect for her.

[BitterApple]

It is rather funny Jill told the doctor to "stitch her up good" like there would have been gaping holes in her abdomen if she hadn't properly instructed him. My guess is Jill was trying to salvage a shred of credibility as a "professional" midwife after having botched every other aspect of her delivery.

[Cherrio]

It is rather funny Jill told the doctor to "stitch her up good" like there would have been gaping holes in her abdomen if she hadn't properly instructed him. My guess is Jill was trying to salvage a shred of credibility as a "professional" midwife after having botched every other aspect of her delivery.

She is so lucky I was not stitching her up.   I would of stitched so the scar spelled out NIKE. 

[Sew Sumi]

But making two extra round trips every day negates any savings in fuel.  

Three. Don't forget lunch. 

[Wellfleet]

It is rather funny Jill told the doctor to "stitch her up good" like there would have been gaping holes in her abdomen if she hadn't properly instructed him. My guess is Jill was trying to salvage a shred of credibility as a "professional" midwife after having botched every other aspect of her delivery.

 

Agree. Her "orders" to the doctor could also have been a last desperate effort on her part to have some type of control over what she was sure she'd be orchestrating from start to finish. And of which she "totally" lost control. Good grief, she is definitely Boob's daughter.

[Absolom]

I'm not holding out much hope that Jill will have that homebirth she wants so much.  That's sad for her, but she's an adult by age now and it's time to face reality.  Her parents have sold her a bill of goods about following the rules and she'll escape most of the hardships of the rest of us mere mortals.  Cathy said both her sons were very large bablies.  Jill has every chance of an equally large or even larger baby next time that doesn't bode well for a VBAC.  Further, having had a c-section risks her out of a lay midwife led homebirth in Arkansas.  

[Quof]

Three. Don't forget lunch.

Yes, but it works out to 2 extra trips. Derrick still has to get there and back.  Jill is making an extra trip home in the morning, there and back for lunch, and then back after work to pick him up.

[Sew Sumi]

So, homebirth is now totally impossible because of the section? Could Jill instead deliver at that shack office of her midwife's? 

[Absolom]

So, homebirth is now totally impossible because of the section? Could Jill instead deliver at that shack office of her midwife's? 

I don't think so.  

 

 

 

406.1 Initial risk Assessment

The following conditions preclude midwife care and care must be transferred:

1. Previous cesarean delivery

2. Multiple gestation

3. Documented placenta previa in the third trimester

4. Position other than vertex at the onset of labor

5. Labor prior to 36 weeks gestation

[Spencer Hastings]

It kind of sucks for Jill if she can't ever have the home birth she wanted. She's been told her entire life that this is how it should be and to expect nothing less, then suddenly that possibility is gone. I know other women have it much worse and that sucks for them too, but coming to terms with it must be kind of tough. She's human and humans generally have a hard time accepting the opposite of what they'd planned and had been told to believe.

Edited April 19, 2015 by Spencer Hastings

[NikSac]

I could be wrong but vbac is vaginal delivery right? If not my whole post is screwed up

 

I believe it's "Vaginal Birth After C-Section."  (I am not an expert by any means, but that's what I've heard VBAC as before)

[cmr2014]

I also think that there is an element of magical thinking to their belief system. Sufficient proper and devout praying should have brought her the outcome she wanted. The fact that she didn't get what she wants shows that there was something wrong with the fervor of her devotion. So, for her, she has failed on multiple levels -- first she did not have the model natural birth that she wanted, and second she was publicly outed as being an inadequate Christian.

 

I'm sure that they have re-written the narrative at this point to show how this outcome proves how very much God loves her and approves of her devotion, but it was probably really hard on her self-image.

[Absolom]

That's part of the horror of the belief system that her parents push.  It's your fault because you didn't have enough faith, pray hard enough, or whatever, when it's a simple matter of genetics or of a baby getting distressed in labor which has zero to do with the strength of anyone's faith.  I'm not against religion in general, but I obviously don't subscribe to what to me is a distortion of faith that Gothard sells.  I hope Jill can come to terms with the situation and realize the Gothard premise is at fault, not her.

[truthtalk2014]

Has Jill ever stated the length and weight of DerrickDullard when he was born?  

[andromeda331]

That's part of the horror of the belief system that her parents push.  It's your fault because you didn't have enough faith, pray hard enough, or whatever, when it's a simple matter of genetics or of a baby getting distressed in labor which has zero to do with the strength of anyone's faith.  I'm not against religion in general, but I obviously don't subscribe to what to me is a distortion of faith that Gothard sells.  I hope Jill can come to terms with the situation and realize the Gothard premise is at fault, not her.

 

That's sad because she'll probably believe it and not believe anyone else who would tell her that God wasn't punishing her and that God is fine with C-section. I can't imagine how huge that is thinking you made your own God mad at you or somehow failed Him.

[JenCarroll]

Agree. Her "orders" to the doctor could also have been a last desperate effort on her part to have some type of control over what she was sure she'd be orchestrating from start to finish. And of which she "totally" lost control. Good grief, she is definitely Boob's daughter.

Oh yeah, that's EXACTLY what it was.

I believe it's "Vaginal Birth After C-Section."  (I am not an expert by any means, but that's what I've heard VBAC as before)

Yes, VBAC is vaginal birth after cesarean; years ago it was considered an unacceptable risk but they figured out a different way to cut in that left the uterus in better condition for a future labor. Sorry to throw around the acronyms without explanation. I've gotten tripped up here by a couple of acronyms myself. :-)

Has Jill ever stated the length and weight of DerrickDullard when he was born?

My first thought was, "Who even knows that about their husband?" but then I realized, yeah that's actually very Jill thing to know. It was probably on her list of Important Courtship Questions.

[Happyfatchick]

And anyway, DUUUUH, it just occurs to me that the whole reason Jill may have been upset about a C-sec was because of the scar.  She won't be sporting that bikini at the beach this summer.  Bummer.

[Sew Sumi]

That's part of the horror of the belief system that her parents push.  It's your fault because you didn't have enough faith, pray hard enough, or whatever, when it's a simple matter of genetics or of a baby getting distressed in labor which has zero to do with the strength of anyone's faith.  I'm not against religion in general, but I obviously don't subscribe to what to me is a distortion of faith that Gothard sells.  I hope Jill can come to terms with the situation and realize the Gothard premise is at fault, not her.

I'm sure Derick's statements about "no shame" were meant to build Jill's likely fragile self-esteem, especially now that she can no longer have a midwife-assisted home delivery. I'm sure she felt tons of guilt and inadequacy when it became inevitable that she would require a c-section. 

[PinkSprinkles]

LOL I told you so. RickJames looks exactly like Boob. I don't see either Jill nor Derick when I look at him.

 

Little Iz inherited Derrick's wonky eye. Otherwise, he looks like the Duggar side. 

 

The difference between the reactions of Izzy's grandmothers could not be greater. Michelle was all about the birth process and her pride in Jill for being a "trooper." Cathy, on the other hand, expressed her confidence that as a new father Derick will understand and appreciate for the first time how much she loves him because he will love his child with that same intensity. That is a beautiful and very true sentiment.

Izzy is lucky to have Cathy as his grandmother. I hope she will play a significant role in his life.

 

It made me irrationally angry when I read that comment about Michelle not being "proud" of her children often. It's just like the people that express during a speech that they don't tell their spouse/family enough how much they love them. It just makes me cringe. Maybe you should actively praise your children more often if that's something you don't do "often". I'm not saying you have to fawn, but is it really that difficult to express to your children when they've done something of which you positively approve? 

[JenCarroll]

I'm sure Derick's statements about "no shame" were meant to build Jill's likely fragile self-esteem, especially now that she can no longer have a midwife-assisted home delivery. I'm sure she felt tons of guilt and inadequacy when it became inevitable that she would require a c-section.

I thought that "no shame" remark was really f--king faint praise. He should have said something like, "She made the absolute right decision as a mother, for her baby's safety. I'm very proud of her for putting the baby's safety first even though she so much wanted a home birth." Even though we all know that's not exactly how it went down. Idiot.

[cereality]

I don't know if we can go so far as to say that Jill is doubting her parents/parents' belief system as they taught it to her. Do they really teach that if you pray hard you'll get what you want, and if you don't it's because you somehow messed up the prayer? Don't most religions including Christianity teach that God answers prayers but sometimes the answer is NO for reasons that are "better" for you, even though you may not get why?! Does Gothard teach something different?

 

Cathy OTOH comes across normal when she said she wasn't worried about a c section and she had seen Jill in enough pain. She like any normal mother was probably thinking -- if you're in/practically in transition with contractions 1 min apart and the baby isn't coming, isn't it time to let professionals take over and do what they need to do!? And such a nice sentiment that now Derick will understand the way Cathy loves him. I think it's true -- I don't have kids, but I think you have to be a parent to totally get everything your parents did for you, how much they love you, how much they worry about you etc. You can tell she understands what parenting and parent-child relationships are about -- it's not about how many you have or how they get here, it's about what you do once they are here.

I thought that "no shame" remark was really f--king faint praise. He should have said something like, "She made the absolute right decision as a mother, for her baby's safety. I'm very proud of her for putting the baby's safety first even though she so much wanted a home birth." Even though we all know that's not exactly how it went down. Idiot.

Yeah -- the "no shame" thing didn't sit well with me either. He should have gone stronger and said she was 100% right to put the baby's/her health first -- everything else re vaginal vs. c or home vs. hospital is just "preference," but health is a "necessity." There's "no shame" -- no kidding Derick. Do you feel shame when you need antibiotics for strep throat or an x ray?? It's a medical procedure, why even introduce the concept of shame into it; if Jill wasn't thinking shame (she prob was), now it's one added thing on her mind.

[Sew Sumi]

Exactly. He may well have meant something different, but introducing shame into the mix indicates that *someone, somewhere* in their fundie circles thinks that to give in and have a c-section is some sort of childbirth failure. 

 

One has to wonder if Jill isn't silently suffering some PPD as she deals with these feelings. 

[JoanArc]

If Jill can't have a midwife at her home birth she'll just do it herself at home. With Michelle and 'doula' Jana assisting. I'm sure Jill takes a 'doctors don't know everything, God does!' stance.

 

I noticed both magazines with Jill on the cover - US and People. People emphasized the birth trauma, Us emphasized being at home with the new baby. Interesting.

[doodlebug]

 

The uterus can rupture, and even in this day and age, that's nearly always fatal.

 

No it isn't.  It can be very dangerous, even life threatening, for both mom and baby, but not usually deadly.

 

There/s no absolute limit on the number of cesarean a woman can have.  I had a patient who had 10 of 'em!  I did the last 4 and her insides were in excellent shape.  Meanwhile, other women due a variety of issues, can have  a huge amount of scar tissue after only one; making the delivery very difficult and sometimes risky.