Jill, Derick & the Kids: Moving On!!

[woodscommaelle]

11 minutes ago, Zella said:

If the end result of this memoir is Jim Bob getting the Al Capone treatment (I mean the building time due to tax evasion charges not the syphilis LOL), that's some very wonderful karma.

 

Meh, may as well throw in some syphilis for this piece of shit as well.

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, Zella said:

If the end result of this memoir is Jim Bob getting the Al Capone treatment (I mean the building time due to tax evasion charges not the syphilis LOL

Are you completely ruling out the option of both? 

[BetyBee]

Someone on Reddit posted that they hope JB gets to experience the IRS season of life as a result of Jill's book and I'm dying laughing!

[Zella]

20 minutes ago, deaja said:

Are you completely ruling out the option of both? 

 

21 minutes ago, woodscommaelle said:

Meh, may as well throw in some syphilis for this piece of shit as well.

Unlike Jim Bob, I will allow it. 

[Turquoise]

1 hour ago, BetyBee said:

Someone on Reddit posted that they hope JB gets to experience the IRS season of life as a result of Jill's book and I'm dying laughing!

"Are you here to talk about tax evasion?"

[lascuba]

1 hour ago, Zella said:

If the end result of this memoir is Jim Bob getting the Al Capone treatment (I mean the building time due to tax evasion charges not the syphilis LOL), that's some very wonderful karma. And I say that as someone who still side-eyes Derrick a lot. 

I would love to know what conversation Jill had with the ghost writer about the discussion around the tax stuff. I don't think that would have been published if they weren't both very aware of the potential legal implications for Jim Bob if someone were interested in following up on that. 

I'm guessing Jill is/was in the dark about the legal implications, while Derick knows exactly what the possibilities are. The power of keeping his mouth shut isn't the only thing he learned in law school. 

From the excerpts I've read, the tax stuff seems to be the most...not surprising, because I think many of us suspected JB of questionable accounting, but the most impactful of Jill's revelations. We've all speculated on various Duggar shenanigans for years, and to have those speculations confirmed is fascinating. 

The stuff about Nepal and Jill not wanting it aired if they didn't work out was also interesting to me, because I've always suspected that the reason Jessa got to the engagement stage with Ben was because she didn't want to back out after their courtship was filmed. I'm wondering if that was a factor for Jill. 

 

[Zella]

1 minute ago, lascuba said:

I'm guessing Jill is/was in the dark about the legal implications,

In that case, the ghostwriter didn't do his job. 

[lascuba]

1 minute ago, Zella said:

In that case, the ghostwriter didn't do his job. 

Would it be ghostwriter or the publisher's job?

The reason I think so is that I don't think Jill would want to go that far. It's one thing to piss off her entire family by releasing family secrets, it's another to get her father potentially investigated and indicted for tax fraud. I've wanted to see that forever and I'd actually respect Jill for doing that deliberately,  but I don't thinkshe would.

[quarks]

Admittedly, Simon & Schuster doesn't necessarily have the best record on these sorts of things, but there's a non-zero chance that one of their attorneys at least looked over the book and contacted the Dillards, their agent, and the ghostwriter to ensure that they had some sort of receipts for the allegations of what sounds awfully like tax fraud, to avoid any later defamation lawsuit.

33 minutes ago, lascuba said:

Would it be ghostwriter or the publisher's job?

The publisher.

Who incidentally just hired a new General Counsel/Executive Vice President to head up their legal department.

Edited September 13, 2023 by quarks

[SMama]

13 hours ago, ChicksDigScars said:

from marching one of the Duggar boys (Jason, I believe) out on Sunday to speechify at the pulpit about forgiveness, 

Could you please expand on this? 

[Minivanessa]

8 minutes ago, lascuba said:

The stuff about Nepal and Jill not wanting it aired if they didn't work out was also interesting to me, because I've always suspected that the reason Jessa got to the engagement stage with Ben was because she didn't want to back out after their courtship was filmed. I'm wondering if that was a factor for Jill. 

Jill of course hated the idea that if she went to Nepal and met Derick with the film crew tagging along, and it didn't work out, it would all be shown on the show. But the producers said, sorry, but that's what will happen. So she and Derick talked it over before TLC set up the trip, and decided to take the risk.  And as discussed above, by the time they'd had a few days together in person, she was all in for the courtship.

I think there was probably quite a bond developing between them while they were communicating only by chaperoned phone calls and emails. Just the fact that they could discuss and navigate the terms of that trip together, suggests that was the case. When they met in person, I suppose plenty of sparks flew and that sealed the deal.

That's an interesting contrast to Jessa and Ben, a match which TBH I never understood. He was a Bible-waving teenager with raging hormones and she was the Hot Duggar Daughter. His ambitious father (who'd belonged to Vision Forum) apparently did all he could to facilitate the match. Those courting scenes between Ben and Jessa were, IIRC, so cringe. Didn't he write (gawdawful) romantic poems for her, to which she responded like a dead fish had been dropped in her lap? Didn't Meech have to coach her on how to act when a guy is courting? I mean, that was drah-mah for the show, but seemed to reflect Ben's and Jessa's personalities.

Interesting point about how they came to be engaged. I can see Jessa, who IMO has a brittle personality, not knowing how to cope with backing out of a courtship that was already in the can for the show. IMO she may have been hot to look at, but she's a difficult and probably very troubled person.  She's so buttoned-up (or buttoned-down). I can see her going ahead with the engagement out of pride if nothing else. Not gonna admit a mistake. 

[Zella]

Just now, lascuba said:

Would it be ghostwriter or the publisher's job?

I've never worked as a ghostwriter, but I have worked as an editor, and I'd say a ghostwriter has an even bigger duty to the author because their words are going to be attributed to the person whose memoir is it.

It seems like the phrasing is very careful to not directly say it is tax fraud but to spell it out in such a way that the conclusion is inescapable. I see the hand of an editorial professional at work in that, and it would, in my opinion, be really disingenuous and unprofessional to not have a talk with the writer about what you were doing and why there. Either the ghostwriter saw what was there and decided to be very careful in the use of language (and it would be stupid and disingenuous to do that and not talk to your author about it) or they had a conversation about the best way to go about presenting the information, which I find much more likely. "Wait! Are you accusing your dad of tax fraud?" 

Even if they don't care about Jim Bob being investigated or didn't fact check the book (the onus for that is usually on the writer), they would be very interested in any claim she made that could trigger a defamation case that they could be dragged into. Saying your father is committing tax fraud is a pretty serious allegation that could create legal implications if it's not true. I think it would be incredibly stupid and irresponsible to work with an author who makes that claim and not talk through the implications of saying that, once you've agreed to go there. I have talked to author clients over much more minor accusations in books nobody will ever read and whether we want to go there or not. 

[ChicksDigScars]

8 minutes ago, SMama said:

Could you please expand on this? 

Taken from the Instagram account of Katie Joy, a post with a video of Jason singing (BADLY), "IIIIIIII forgiveeee youuuuuuuuuu," on Sunday.

 

 

Also a post about JB's pastor schooling the congregation that same day, about the word "allegedly." There's video. He's an angry, bitter little "man of god."

 

[quarks]

Just to add that Simon & Schuster probably added some sort of legal indemnity clause to the contract, but....in any defamation lawsuit, Simon & Schuster would absolutely be mentioned. 

[ginger90]

[BOOgen3]

Jim Bob Duggar is living proof why the Coogan Law should apply to  child “performers” on reality tv. What a horrid human being.

[BOOgen3]

8 minutes ago, BOOgen3 said:

Jim Bob Duggar is living proof why the Coogan Law should apply to  child “performers” on reality tv. What a horrid human being.

ETA   Better yet, just keep one’s children off of reality tv.

[Ohiopirate02]

10 minutes ago, BOOgen3 said:

Jim Bob Duggar is living proof why the Coogan Law should apply to  child “performers” on reality tv. What a horrid human being.

Coogan's law does not stop the parent or guardian from taking the vast majority of their children's earnings though.  Living expenses for example are allowed under the law.  And a parent like JB can easily figure out how to justify taking every single penny from their children.  

[Salacious Kitty]

29 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Coogan's law does not stop the parent or guardian from taking the vast majority of their children's earnings though.  Living expenses for example are allowed under the law.  And a parent like JB can easily figure out how to justify taking every single penny from their children.  

PA passed legislation that forced Kate Gosselin to set up trust funds for her kids. There were probably percentages of revenue in place so the kids weren't ripped off. I believe the older two girls are in or just graduated from college, so there was money from somewhere.

[babyhouseman]

I think the Jim Bob/Duggar mess is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to TLC's machinations. From what I understand, TLC gets the show from a production company and consider the show participants independent contractors. Their handling of children in reality shows and their money has been horrible. Jill's story is just one of many bad things at TLC and could make a bigger book. 

[AstridM]

3 hours ago, ChicksDigScars said:

Taken from the Instagram account of Katie Joy, a post with a video of Jason singing (BADLY), "IIIIIIII forgiveeee youuuuuuuuuu," on Sunday.

 

 

Also a post about JB's pastor schooling the congregation that same day, about the word "allegedly." There's video. He's an angry, bitter little "man of god."

 

What church do they attend?

1 hour ago, BOOgen3 said:

ETA   Better yet, just keep one’s children off of reality tv.

Right? I’m so glad I didn’t watch many episodes, and stopped completely after the first Josh scandal. And I’ve never watched even one of their family exploitation videos on YouTube or IG. 

[Westiepeach]

I caved and bought the kindle version. Honestly looking forward to reading it!

[CalicoKitty]

I just bought the Kindle version.  I had a bunch of Amazon credits, so I decided to use them.  Plan to read the book tomorrow.

[BetyBee]

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on the book, @Westiepeach and @CalicoKitty!

[MMEButterfly]

1 hour ago, CalicoKitty said:

I just bought the Kindle version.  I had a bunch of Amazon credits, so I decided to use them.  Plan to read the book tomorrow.

Me too.

 

[CalicoKitty]

We now have our own forum book club!!

[GeeGolly]

Is this what happened?

• The Dillards request money for medical expenses from JB
• JB says no
• The Dillards request back pay
• As revenge JB put Jill on his taxes as a subcontractor
• The Dillards say, Whoa, wait, whaaatt?!
• JB sends an 'invoice' and offers a payout of $20,000
• The Dillards eventually get $175,000

And JB is sitting on how much money???

 

[satrunrose]

Enough to buy a theatre in a tourist town after the show shut down and he spent a bundle on J'Inmate's legal bills.

[Absolom]

And this model of humanity (not) wants to fuss because a daughter wears pants and got a nose ring all while paying hundreds of thousands to defend his obviously guilty son and also fund useless appeals.  

[KAOS Agent]

9 hours ago, Salacious Kitty said:

PA passed legislation that forced Kate Gosselin to set up trust funds for her kids. There were probably percentages of revenue in place so the kids weren't ripped off. I believe the older two girls are in or just graduated from college, so there was money from somewhere.

Kate admitted to "borrowing" more than $100,000 from the kids' accounts to fund her lifestyle (including furnishing her house). So there were accounts set up, but there is no legal recourse for Collin and Hannah, the two who lived with Jon, to get the money back. 

I'm impressed Jill somehow managed to get the amount she got out of Jim Bob, but he was likely looking at it as a sort of hush money. It takes a special kind of ass to not cover the medical expenses of your daughter who almost died giving birth to a child which their religion insists is her only duty in life. This is especially crazy given that the filming of her family life is a big part of the reason he had any income at all. No one cared about Jim Bob and Michelle at that point. They were no longer "and Counting" by then.

Edited September 14, 2023 by KAOS Agent

[Lisa418722]

My curiosity finally got the best of me and I decided to go ahead and get the book on Kindle.  I work from home so hopefully I'll be able to do some reading today in between assignments.  

[Panopticon]

5 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

Kate admitted to "borrowing" more than $100,000 from the kids' accounts to fund her lifestyle (including furnishing her house). So there were accounts set up, but there is no legal recourse for Collin and Hannah, the two who lived with Jon, to get the money back. 

I'm impressed Jill somehow managed to get the amount she got out of Jim Bob, but he was likely looking at it as a sort of hush money. It takes a special kind of ass to not cover the medical expenses of your daughter who almost died giving birth to a child which their religion insists is her only duty in life. This is especially crazy given that the filming of her family life is a big part of the reason he had any income at all. No one cared about Jim Bob and Michelle at that point. They were no longer "and Counting" by then.

Yup. The four older girls were the cash cows. The leg humpers loved them for how dutifully they cared for the house and the younger siblings. The snarkers were fixated on them because they saw them as exploited and hoped that they escaped. It helped that all four were reasonably pretty and had reasonably distinct personalities. Jim Bob had to have known that. He was just so arrogant that he thought that he could get away with continuing to rule them with an iron fist while offering a pittance in return. He was half right (the Jana and Jessa half).

[Tdoc72]

18 hours ago, lascuba said:

Would it be ghostwriter or the publisher's job?

The reason I think so is that I don't think Jill would want to go that far. It's one thing to piss off her entire family by releasing family secrets, it's another to get her father potentially investigated and indicted for tax fraud. I've wanted to see that forever and I'd actually respect Jill for doing that deliberately,  but I don't thinkshe would.

Yes, she is probably too nice. But he had no problem lying to the IRS which then triggered a letter to the Dillards implying that they were the fraudulent ones for not claiming what JB said he paid them.  Did he care that they might get in trouble? Probably not, the dick. 

[mythoughtis]

34 minutes ago, Tdoc72 said:

Yes, she is probably too nice. But he had no problem lying to the IRS which then triggered a letter to the Dillards implying that they were the fraudulent ones for not claiming what JB said he paid them.  Did he care that they might get in trouble? Probably not, the dick. 

This part is interesting.  Where was either the 1099 or the W-2 to go along with what JB claimed he paid them?  Did he/ his accountant create one and send that info to the IRS and not give it to Jill?  Presumably Jill and Derick claimed what they actually got a check for.  
 

In addition, the ‘income’  extras that JB claimed were spread out over years, not the one year.  Where are the tax returns for Jill when she was still a dependent? She wouldn’t have had any concept of filing one since she wasn’t working as far as she knew.  

Edited September 14, 2023 by mythoughtis

[AstridM]

13 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

Is this what happened?

• The Dillards request money for medical expenses from JB
• JB says no
• The Dillards request back pay
• As revenge JB put Jill on his taxes as a subcontractor
• The Dillards say, Whoa, wait, whaaatt?!
• JB sends an 'invoice' and offers a payout of $20,000
• The Dillards eventually get $175,000

And JB is sitting on how much money???

 

How is it NOT tax fraud to do something like that?

[lascuba]

1 hour ago, Tdoc72 said:

Yes, she is probably too nice. But he had no problem lying to the IRS which then triggered a letter to the Dillards implying that they were the fraudulent ones for not claiming what JB said he paid them.  Did he care that they might get in trouble? Probably not, the dick. 

100%. I have to wonder if the tax stuff is specific to Jill and Derick or if JB claimed to pay income to all his adult children and their spouses. Not that he's above revenge, but considering all the ways he works the system to maximize his income while minimizing his taxes, I think it more likely that this was standard practice for him. 

[AstridM]

13 minutes ago, lascuba said:

100%. I have to wonder if the tax stuff is specific to Jill and Derick or if JB claimed to pay income to all his adult children and their spouses. Not that he's above revenge, but considering all the ways he works the system to maximize his income while minimizing his taxes, I think it more likely that this was standard practice for him. 

Probably, but isn’t it clearly illegal and fraud?

[Heathen]

17 minutes ago, AstridM said:

How is it NOT tax fraud to do something like that?

It's a technicality, probably. It's also really hard to prove fraud by someone else. 

As far as the Gosselin girls' college, on paper, KHate is a single mother of six. I would guess that Mady and Cara got grants, scholarships, and loans galore. Again, technicalities. 

[GeeGolly]

1 minute ago, AstridM said:

Probably, but isn’t it clearly illegal and fraud?

There's JB and there's Mad Money(Family?). One can argue all the kids were employees of Mad Money and the sons also worked for JB. I think this is why all the kids had LLCs, to offset any taxes. 

If JB was doing this all along he must have filed on behalf of the kids - but the kids would have had to sign the tax returns or he and Michelle forged them.

[Minivanessa]

I read the book the day it was released. I could use a refresh by going back over the financial stuff. But my take on it, is that we just aren't given enough information in the book to fill in all the blanks and find all the details regarding the compensation and tax issues. I think the authors, editors, and the publisher's legal team, were careful to present enough facts to get Jill's story across, and no more. 

For example, the letter Jill got from the IRS in 2018 that was the triggering event for the financial negotiations and real blowup between the Dillards and JB. The book doesn't disclose the contents of the letter. She handed it to Derick and asked what it meant. He said "I don't know yet. But I don't like it"

He got copies of their back tax returns from JB's CPA, who had been filing Jill's taxes "ever since I could remember," and also filed the Dillards' return the first two years of their marriage. She said Derick tackled the mystery like a forensic accountant, created spreadsheets, and figured out that JB's CPA had been reporting that Jill had received income from the show that she hadn't actually been paid. At that time JB had given her $80,000. Derick calculated that the total income that had been reported to the IRS was about $130,000 more, i.e., about $210,000.

There's a lot we don't know, such as was there false reporting every year since, say, Jill turned 18 (and if not, when did it start), how much was reported each year, and did the IRS demand back taxes from the Dillards or was tax paid every year on the (falsely) reported income out of JB's (probably Mad Family Inc.'s) funds. 

What Jill does report is that their research into the finances, sparked off by the IRS letter, set off the really big trouble between them and JB that had been rumbling already. (She thinks his CPA didn't really know that Jill was in the dark about the finances, because he was responsive to their requests for documents and info at that time.) 

@GeeGolly - the book doesn't contain the word "subcontractor" so I don't know, based on the book, if JB filed tax returns showing Jill (or Derick) in that role. 

Jill does report that when Derick started applying for grants, scholarships, and financial aid for law school:

Quote

It didn’t take long for him to realize that all the money that Pops’ accountant had declared on my tax returns made it look like we had way more cash than we actually did. It didn’t matter that we’d never actually been paid the $132,249.98 which had been declared. As far as these trusts and foundations were concerned, our tax returns told the story that we didn’t need much financial help. While that was frustrating, that wasn’t even our biggest worry. We worried more about what we still didn’t know about our finances, the contract, and previous taxes with Pops.

    --Duggar, Jill. Counting the Cost (p. 217). Gallery Books. Kindle Edition. 

We do know that for at least a few years prior to 2017 (the latest annual tax return that would have existed during 2018), JB's CPA was reporting that Jill had received income totaling a bit more than $210,000 (the $80K which JB had belatedly "gifted" them plus the $130K she hadn't received).  I doubt that was a "revenge" move by JB because as I read it, I think the reporting predated the troubles between the Dillards and JB. I think that this was JB's practice all along, and he may have done it as to the other kids.  Later edited to add: I found some more clues about that practice, as to all the kids, in the book, and have posted about it in the JB/Meech topic.

Edited September 14, 2023 by Jeeves

[AstridM]

Thanks, @Jeeves!

[Minivanessa]

You're welcome.

Edited September 14, 2023 by Jeeves

[oliviabenson]

0 copies. Guess i have to buy used when people sell their copy.

I didn’t put it on hold anyway.

[lascuba]

2 hours ago, AstridM said:

Probably, but isn’t it clearly illegal and fraud?

I'd think so, but if all the kidults go along with it, there's little risk of getting caught. None of these people except for Derick have W2 jobs, so it's probably "easier" to let JB handle things and not ask any questions.

[Laura Holt]

None of the Duggar kids had any real education and were raised to do what Daddy told them to do.  It's not surprising at all to me that they would never have even begun to understand how income tax works (hell I have a master's degree and I'm not entirely sure I understand every nuance!).  They trusted their father and IMO anyway he won't hesitate to throw each and every one of them under the bus if the IRS does come calling.

[heckkitty]

4 hours ago, Jeeves said:

I read the book the day it was released. I could use a refresh by going back over the financial stuff. But my take on it, is that we just aren't given enough information in the book to fill in all the blanks and find all the details regarding the compensation and tax issues. I think the authors, editors, and the publisher's legal team, were careful to present enough facts to get Jill's story across, and no more. 

For example, the letter Jill got from the IRS in 2018 that was the triggering event for the financial negotiations and real blowup between the Dillards and JB. The book doesn't disclose the contents of the letter. She handed it to Derick and asked what it meant. He said "I don't know yet. But I don't like it"

He got copies of their back tax returns from JB's CPA, who had been filing Jill's taxes "ever since I could remember," and also filed the Dillards' return the first two years of their marriage. She said Derick tackled the mystery like a forensic accountant, created spreadsheets, and figured out that JB's CPA had been reporting that Jill had received income from the show that she hadn't actually been paid. At that time JB had given her $80,000. Derick calculated that the total income that had been reported to the IRS was about $130,000 more, i.e., about $210,000.

There's a lot we don't know, such as was there false reporting every year since, say, Jill turned 18 (and if not, when did it start), how much was reported each year, and did the IRS demand back taxes from the Dillards or was tax paid every year on the (falsely) reported income out of JB's (probably Mad Family Inc.'s) funds. 

What Jill does report is that their research into the finances, sparked off by the IRS letter, set off the really big trouble between them and JB that had been rumbling already. (She thinks his CPA didn't really know that Jill was in the dark about the finances, because he was responsive to their requests for documents and info at that time.) 

@GeeGolly - the book doesn't contain the word "subcontractor" so I don't know, based on the book, if JB filed tax returns showing Jill (or Derick) in that role. 

Jill does report that when Derick started applying for grants, scholarships, and financial aid for law school:

We do know that for at least a few years prior to 2017 (the latest annual tax return that would have existed during 2018), JB's CPA was reporting that Jill had received income totaling a bit more than $210,000 (the $80K which JB had belatedly "gifted" them plus the $130K she hadn't received).  I doubt that was a "revenge" move by JB because as I read it, I think the reporting predated the troubles between the Dillards and JB. I think that this was JB's practice all along, and he may have done it as to the other kids.  Later edited to add: I found some more clues about that practice, as to all the kids, in the book, and have posted about it in the JB/Meech topic.

Yeah, this makes me think it was his regular practice and he did it to all of them.  And essentially considered feeding, clothing, and sheltering your children to be compensating them for work. What a prick. 

 

[P-Fat]

The idea of JimBob going to jail for tax fraud is simply too much Schaudenfreude for me to deal with.

 

Maybe he and Joshie can be bunkmates!

[JAYJAY1979]

The fact Jill actually used the P word when talking about Josh during one of the interviews surprised me in a good way.  She realized her dad cared more about the child that did the crime as opposed to the children that were attacked.

And hearing Josh was in the same room/area as Jessa and Jill is the missing piece.  Jessa was so shut down/angry during the interview while Jill was so sad and scared.  Now it makes sense.

[GeeGolly]

Why did Jill receive a letter from the IRS at that time? Coincidence?

[Natalie68]

On 9/12/2023 at 1:07 PM, Panopticon said:

Perhaps the saddest part of the book is the passage about little Jilly Muffin running around with her nurse playset asking her siblings in turn if they felt sick and whether she could help. Maybe if Jill had had access to a proper education, she still would have chosen to marry young and stay home with her babies. And that's a totally valid choice, of course. But it seems like she had a genuine calling to the medical field, too, and she never had a real chance to see how far she might have gone with it.

Super creepy passage about how Jana was the only J'Slave invited to be one of Gothard's Girls because she was the blonde. I know that's nothing we didn't already know, but it lands with an even more sickening thud coming from Jill.

Speaking of Jana, there's a passing mention of young Jill trying to out-good her siblings while either set of twins was "wrestling for the best position on the couch." Jana and JD were allowed to wrestle each other pre-Josh scandal? That's... also incredibly sad, considering what was taken away from the various subsets of siblings post-Josh.

Ugh to Jim Bob explicitly sending nasty messages to Jill through her siblings. Also something we already knew; also lands really hard coming from Jill. I wonder which sib was the one who snuck out and snitched that "Pops is telling everyone that if we don't stand against you, then we're standing against him."

I would love to know what happened between Jim Bob and Michelle before Michelle left the infamous contract at Jill's door in the middle of the night.

Ha! Jill (or her ghost writer) better be careful with that snark, or else she'll end up hanging out here with us.

Seriously, though, Jill/the ghost writer did a great job making Jill's love for her parents palpable even while she skewered them. And while she was explicit about adoring her buddies and taking pride in building the TTH, she was equally clear about being devastated that Jim Bob didn't choose to protect her over the show.

Wait, what???