Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[3 is enough]

 

I feel super gross and stalkery for even knowing the answer to this, but every news article I've read over the past few days mention that when Josh was last seen, he was arriving back in DC, so his last known whereabouts was DC.  I presumed he was at home and felt mildly surprised that we weren't seeing imagines of cameras camped outside his home.

Thanks for the answer.  Wonder if he took Anna and the kids somewhere safe where they could weather the storm? Maybe her parents or one of her sisters?  If so at least he is capable of doing SOMETHING decent.

[Readalot]

"19 kids and counting is currently unavailable. Please try again later" Time Warner San Diego On Demand when trying to access a listed episode. I had not watched Digging in with the Duggars yet on my DVR but I went to watch it now and because of Friday's marathon it knocked it off my list (I only keep 6 episodes). - Thank you to all mods and posters. Proud to be a part of this amazing group. I wish I could give you all hugs. This nightmare has brought about rage for me again regarding my nephews molestation by his uncle when they were 8 and 16 respectively, this was found out 5 years ago. I can only imagine how the survivors are feeling this past few days and I weep for them! WHY DID J AND M NOT FEEL RAGE? Why is not everyone feeling rage on how this was handled? I'm Christian AND I DONT SEE HOW THESE INCIDENCES ARE CONSIDERED MISTAKES. I'm sorry. Hugs to all survivors reading this and to all who support the Duggar survivors.

[Literata]

I think Josh is probably going through hell and I take no joy in knowing that. I've felt that panic when a choice you made impacts your life so gravely and decidedly. Once again, I keep going back to his parents. What Josh did was unequivocally wrong and his victims were/are deserving of compassion, help, and justice. But, Josh was also deserving of real help and accountability. His parents made choices that took this from a devastating family issue to a public debate and shaming. They pushed their family into the spot light without considering the impact that fame would have if these things were revealed. They failed all of their children. Josh was a teenager - then he grew up and literally took a position on a high horse without considering how far he had to fall.

You said very eloquently what I had been trying to express. Thank you. I think very few of us take any joy in this, and I daresay we've all had those little ones on our minds this weekend.

[MrsMommy]

Christians should forgive when they are ready, it days in the bible to forgive as you are forgiven. So I have no doubt eventually if they haven't already the girls will forgive josh.

Take a step back and think about it as if Josh was your son, you love your kids unconditionally right? I can't say that I would turn my son in. I'd get him help no doubt but to make my son spend time in prison at the age of 14 just isn't something I see myself being able to do.

[CherryAmes]

I can't say that I would turn my son in. I'd get him help no doubt but to make my son spend time in prison at the age of 14 just isn't something I see myself being able to do.

 

I don't fault the Duggars for not "turning their son in" even though I doubt very much prison would ever have been an option.  I fault them for not doing anything to actually help their son, and even more I fault them for not doing much of anything to keep him away from their daughters.  Sending him off to help build a house and making their daughters sleep in their clothes just isn't cutting it for me in the "we did our best" department!

[JoanArc]

 

Take a step back and think about it as if Josh was your son, you love your kids unconditionally right? I can't say that I would turn my son in. I'd get him help no doubt but to make my son spend time in prison at the age of 14 just isn't something I see myself being able to do.

I would get my daughter help by making sure her attacker could never hurt her again. However that's accomplished.

[MrsMommy]

Right joan I would make sure my daughter was never hurt again, I'd make either of my son's go for treatment as well as my daughter, but they are still all my children and I'd die for any of them. Prison isn't a option in home

[BitterApple]

I hate to defend the Duggars but there's no evidence that JimBob banned Anna's sister from their home. That was tabloid/Internet rumor.

[MichaelaRae]

I don't get the questions about "who". His SISTERS. Isn't that enough?

 

His victims were, as far as the reports and data about the family can be interpreted, potentially between the ages of 5 and 12. Isn't THAT enough? Blood relationships have nothing to do with the horror of what he did.

 

(I'm uncomfortable with the idea that somehow it's "more" horrible because it's incest. He molested young girls who were not capable of consent. That is ENOUGH. His relationship to them is beside the point to me.)

Edited May 26, 2015 by MichaelaRae

[Dawn16]

I would get my daughter help by making sure her attacker could never hurt her again. However that's accomplished.

Yes.   And I would never ever teach her that females tempt and "defraud" men.  To have emphasized that "lesson" to daughters who were molested is beyond horrifying. 

[Chalby]

Take a step back and think about it as if Josh was your son, you love your kids unconditionally right? I can't say that I would turn my son in. I'd get him help no doubt but to make my son spend time in prison at the age of 14 just isn't something I see myself being able to do.

When I review the recent 'confession' of Josh, I have to shake my head. Imagine if Josh, at 14, had come forward and openly listed his transgressions. Imagine him weeping, apologizing over and over to the victims, as well as the community. Imagine him re-dedicating himself to God and to service. Imagine that he and his family were quietly devout, and they always refuse to pass judgement against any people, groups, etc. stating that God loves all and doesn't look for labels such as 'gay'. If THAT were the family and boy who committed these crimes, the community would be reaching out, supporting the family, providing names of good therapists, ensuring the girls involved knew it wasn't their fault and not to feel guilty. We all would have been tripping over each other to help. The facts are: the Duggar family is arrogant, judgemental, entitled, and ignorantly so. They have no comprehension (or compassion) of how ridiculous they all appear.

 

And I have to share one private point - I have three sons. They all know that I can forgive them of almost anything - (even to an extent, murder). But they also have known from the time they were little, I cannot forgive crimes against children, vulnerable women/disabled persons, and dependent animals. Yes, I would have reported my son. And it would not have come as a surprise to them.

Edited May 26, 2015 by Chalby

[bluebonnet]

Christians should forgive when they are ready, it days in the bible to forgive as you are forgiven. So I have no doubt eventually if they haven't already the girls will forgive josh.

Take a step back and think about it as if Josh was your son, you love your kids unconditionally right? I can't say that I would turn my son in. I'd get him help no doubt but to make my son spend time in prison at the age of 14 just isn't something I see myself being able to do.

Loving unconditionally doesn't mean not providing appropriate responses to certain events.  It does the offender no favors by treating sexual abuse as though it's no different than stealing a piece of gum.  It's unlikely the 14 year old would be sent to prison.  Most likely a juvenile detention center at best. Most of the punishment will consist of mandatory treatment.   Furthermore, the victims deserve to receive care and any legitimate care providers are going to be mandatory reporters.  Unless you're willing to ignore the needs of the victims, the offender is going to be reported no matter how much you wish otherwise.  

 

Through it all, you can keep loving your children unconditionally, the offender and victims alike.  

[Wellfleet]

I wonder how much status and financials played into the decision to marry Anna off to Josh.

First, they'd be marrying into Fundie royalty. Second, I believe Anna's family was poor - definitely when compared to the Duggars. I think the allure of social climbing and a better financial situation may have outweighed making the best decisions for Anna or even by Anna.

My guess is Anna didn't really have too much of a choice once her dad agreed, given their culture. Anna probably wasn't told much more than a vague explanation of what Josh had done. If she was, she was probably told Jesus wanted her to fix him/save him. Anna probably knew her fate in life was going to be to have too many kids with some guy she didn't know very well. Josh Duggar, gross past & all, would at least get her out of her family's trailer and into some TLC/Duggar Motors money with which to raise the numerous kids she'd have no matter which Quiverfull man she ended up with. (I'm not trying to defend why her family - and maybe Anna - married Josh knowing about his past, but I think that these reasons definitely played a part in the decision.)

ETA: Good for the other families/girls that broke off the rumored engagement with Josh. My guess is the Duggars went after Anna for him because they knew how dire her family's financial situation was and that they'd be thrilled to have their daughter marry into Fundie royalty even if the prince of Duggardom was a perv.

 

IIRC, GEML said, quite a while back, that the Kellers were much more fundie-royal than the Duggars, and it was actually Josh who was marrying up.

[JenCarroll]

A huge red flag that an item might not be on the up and up is that if it comes along after a major scandal breaks, when it's really easy for anyone looking to be a part of the story to take what's known and go the real person fan fiction route with it. The people who run CDaN and BlindGossip probably couldn't even spell Duggar three days ago and now they're insiders? Sure. 

 

The blind item was printed in January, months before the Josh scandal broke.

[Sew Sumi]

edited out quote 

 

A friend of mine drove by Chez Smug over the weekend. All was quiet. No media, blinds drawn. 

 

There is no evidence that the Kellers were higher-ups in the Gothard organization. Mike Keller ran an independent prison ministry. NOW, IBLP sends down some true believers a couple times a year (with David Waller in charge) for ministry. The first contact we know that they had with Gothard was sending Anna and Prissy to JTTH back in 2007 (pics exist). Duggar daughters and those awful pink polo shirts were also present. t

 

As for What Anna Really Knew, I lean toward her knowing what Josh put out on the website: he had "struggles" and was repentant. Now, saying that is very vague and can mean that he had impure thoughts. No way that Anna knew the full extent of his actual struggles. It's hard to say what Pa Keller knew, but if he knew more, I doubt he even told his (lowly) wife. And if he knowingly married Anna off to a sexual predator, shame the fuck on him. But then again, he married another daughter off to John Shrader and another to David Waller. Josh McDonald is the real keeper out of the bunch; he's the one who posted on TWOP about Josh and Anna's wedding. He's been out of ATI for quite some time now, not long after their marriage 10 or so years ago.

Edited May 26, 2015 by Sew Sumi

[Georgia]

I missed a lot of this because I was offline for the Jewish holiday of Shavout (celebrating when G-d gave us the Torah). I'm heartsick. I knew the rumors about Josh, but I assumed that his "sin" was normal teenage macking, with a fellow consenting teen. I actually felt sorry for him. 

 

As someone who practices religious modesty, I am outraged to see it perverted and twisted by these people. In the Modern Orthodox tradition it's about dignity and ensuring that men and women can connect and interact intellectually and spiritually, without being distracted by the physical. It's also about not drawing attention to yourself, so that your actions and words count for more than your appearance. It is NOT about keeping women and girls (barf) from "defrauding" men. Immodest dress is never, ever acceptable as an excuse to abuse women or children and it is a man's responsibility to manage his own urges. Since the rabbis in my synagogue are all also mandated reporters, they would definitely turn anyone like Josh in to the authorities. Knowing them as I do, it wouldn't even be a discussion. Nor would it be in most non-fundamentalist churches, I believe.

 

I am also a mandated reported for my state and I have reported in the past. While we don't find out the results of the investigation (unless the child is removed from the home, etc.), we can still look out for that child. While we couldn't call people up and say, "Hey, I think Jessie's dad is beating on her or worse," we could and did say, "Hey, keep an eye on Jessie. I think she's having trouble at home." That is actually code that we used - "having trouble at home." It kept everything confidential, but it helped us to make sure that a vulnerable child had adults in her life doing their best to keep her safe. It's heartbreaking that none of the victims had that.

 

I was a Religion major at (secular) college and I did my junior seminar paper on sex abuse cases within the Catholic Churches in the US and US evangelicals. From the research I've done, I feel confident stating that this is just the tip of the iceberg. I'm also sure that Anna and her parents knew everything. I remember reading about a man who molested 3 generations of his own family - his sisters, daughters, and granddaughters. They all forgave him and "sang him into the loving arms of Jesus," when he died of old age. There is no restitution in this culture - no penance to be done, no reparations to be made to the victims. Once the criminal asks for forgiveness and says that he gives himself over to Jesus, he's forgiven.

This will cost them all, though, one way or another. The Catholic Church has lost $2 billion so far. Even the most dire prediction were only for $1 billion.

[KateUK]

I agree. Anna will never leave Josh.  Not only would she have nowhere to go, she doesn't have anyone in her life who would encourage her to leave him. Even her own parents and at least one sister (Priscilla) will tell her she must stay, trust that God will take care of everything. She's had 24+ years of Gothard training and conditioning about what it means to be a "Godly wife". She's in it for the long-haul.

 

Agree with the above, Anna's world has come crashing down around her I bet her thoughts are full of confusion and panic but, she is too 'institutionalised' into that life style to ever break free.

 

This is a girl who has never had an original thought or opinion of her own, I very much doubt that even the thought of leaving Josh has crossed her mind, instead she will spend a lot of time praying about the situation.

 

And even if she did leave, where would she go and what would she do? Three young children and another due, no money and no education, and doubtful if her own family would step in and help her, no, I'm thinking better the devil you know, she isn't going anywhere.

[SometimesBites]

Take a step back and think about it as if Josh was your son, you love your kids unconditionally right? I can't say that I would turn my son in. I'd get him help no doubt but to make my son spend time in prison at the age of 14 just isn't something I see myself being able to do.

[snip]

 

I have four sons and a step-daughter (and a deceased daughter). Of course I love them unconditionally. My unconditional love does not preclude me from dealing with their problems proactively and as wisely as possible, however. The Duggars did not do that with Josh, and as a result he continued to molest his little sisters. The entire family needed professional counseling and, based on the timeline and Josh's continued molestation of the girls, Josh, his parents, and his entire household should have had long-term monitoring from social services.

 

And all that is true REGARDLESS of how his sisters may currently be coping with what happened when they were little.

Edited May 26, 2015 by bigskygirl
First paragraph edited out-attacking other poster

[Lillybee]

I really feel compassion for the Duggar daughters.

1. they were molested by the brother that they were taught to look up to and obey.

2. they were forced to forgive me and I believe apologize to him for defrauding him.

3.they were forced to live with their molester, never knowing if he would invade their bodies again. They had to sit across the dining room table from him for meals, homeschooling and bible time.

4. they had to cook his meals, launder his clothes including his skid marked undies, clean his pee in the bathrooms and pack his stuff for trips.

5. they had to babysit his children and travel with him

6. they had to keep sweet and practice instant obedience while doing this.

 

I really worry about the level of guilt that these poor girls have to carry.

[Maharincess]

I know this has been said but it can't be said enough. My heart goes out to all of you who are survivors of sexual abuse. Your strength is an inspiration. The grandma part of me wishes I could gather you all up, give you all hugs and help heal your pain.

I'm sending big, warm grandma hugs to all of you.

[Higgins]

While all those kids are raised in a terrible environment and subject to brainwashing and oppression, this is not an excuse to become a child molester. Plenty of boys and girls are raised the same way without becoming sexual predators. Also, it is true that teens are held to different legal standards because teens tend to do stupid things ;). In my opinion, this does not apply to molesting multiple young children over a period of years!

 

Please read this article, it is a great article on child molesters. Spot on.  http://www.chabad.org/theJewishWoman/article_cdo/aid/1707466/jewish/Things-You-Need-to-Know-About-Child-Molesters.htm

 

Pedophiles and child molesters often start in their teens.

I don't excuse his behavior, in fact, I stated that in my post.

[Celia Rubenstein]

Like Found at Peanut says, I take Anna at her word.  Everything she says rings true based on her own belief system.  Just read the testimonials of people who grew up in it.  The article I linked has the author discussing how he was so sure he wouldn't be able to marry because he would one day have to confess to his future wife and her father every single lurid thought he ever had.  This is what they do, they confess it and they repent and then everything is gravy.  If you read through other testimonials, you'll see that yes, even the women have to confess these things to their parents.  The Duggar girls discuss it in their own book.  

 

It's a completely different culture, a very different world.  Normal people just can't imagine something like this because it is so very different.  But if Anna and her parents didn't act exactly as she claims they did, it would be an indication that they weren't actually good Gothardites.  

 

Wow, bluebonnet, I read the article you linked.  It was very powerful.  All this being forced to confess every thought to not only your own father/parents but to your future wife's father was news to me.  Maybe Anna really did know everything.  Damn.

 

In light of this it is not surprising at all that the Duggars responded to the situation the way they did, or that so many fellow fundies are rallying behind them.  They have an entirely different understanding of the causes of Josh's behavior and accountability for such things.  It's really shocking.  I had no idea.  I can see now how they sincerely believe if you just confess and say you're sorry, you get forgiven and it's all over.  What a twisted view of things.  

 

Now I'm actually surprised the Duggars involved the police at all.  I suspect there may have been some concerns about church elders being designated reporters of abuse or something. maybe.  They seem to have no respect for the law at all, and it was probably just a CYA move.  I am sure they took the fact that the case went nowhere as a sign from God that he approved of their approach.  

 

I don't recall much about this "accountability" thing ever being on the show.  The whole admitting everything you ever think of to your parents, I mean.  Was that ever delved into and I just missed it?  Or was that too big a truth about their belief system to share with the public? 

Edited May 26, 2015 by Celia Rubenstein

[Micks Picks]

The truly awful thing is these girls have to keep coming into contact with Josh, and putting up with his BS.  They can't forget or get over it, IMO.

 

Keller is in prison ministry and probably actually thinks he is doing great good and that many prisoners have truly made the transition into God fearing men.  It isn't true, but the religion times give the prisoners something to do, and the religion makes them a better bet to get parole.  Heck, even they probably believe it until 10 minutes after they walk out of jail.  Then it's all gone.  But Keller points to his long term converts as success stories.  He thinks he's done a great deal of good.  I've seen these guys when they are out.  It doesn't last.

 

Keller seems to live with more joy than the Duggars, as do the Bates.  Keller is an elder from all I have read, and has a place on the boards.  He needs the money, as the prices to put that many kids through all those JTTH classes and so on costs big money.  ALERT isn't cheap.  Nor are their introductory Basic LIfe Principle classes.  That sort of thing would be a sacrafice for me.  I'd rather spend it on broader pursuits.  To each his own I guess.

[bluebonnet]

 

Now I'm actually surprised the Duggars involved the police at all.  I suspect there may have been some concerns about church elders being designated reporters of abuse or something. maybe.  They seem to have no respect for the law at all, and it was probably just a CYA move.  I am sure they took the fact that the case went nowhere as a sign from God that he approved of their approach.  

The trooper was allegedly a family friend.  It reminded me of when I was young, I did something dumb and insignificant like violate curfew or sneak into an R rated movie.  Whatever it was, my father took me to the neighbor, who happened to be a cop and a family friend.  The neighbor cop gave me a stern talking, scaring me about how he was going to be nice this time and not arrest me for my deviant behavior but that if I continued on that path, horrible things would happen to me, like going to prison or not being allowed to go to senior prom.  

 

I imagine that this cop did the same thing, only everyone was treating a minor molesting children as something insignificant like coming home five minutes late or a 16 year old seeing an R rated film.  I think the only reason they went to the cop is because they already knew how he would react, like how my own father knew exactly what my neighbor cop would do when he marched me over to his house to receive a stern talking. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Take a step back and think about it as if Josh was your son, you love your kids unconditionally right? I can't say that I would turn my son in. I'd get him help no doubt but to make my son spend time in prison at the age of 14 just isn't something I see myself being able to do.

Loving unconditionally doesn't mean not providing appropriate responses to certain events.  It does the offender no favors by treating sexual abuse as though it's no different than stealing a piece of gum.  It's unlikely the 14 year old would be sent to prison.  Most likely a juvenile detention center at best. Most of the punishment will consist of mandatory treatment.   Furthermore, the victims deserve to receive care and any legitimate care providers are going to be mandatory reporters.  Unless you're willing to ignore the needs of the victims, the offender is going to be reported no matter how much you wish otherwise. 

 

Through it all, you can keep loving your children unconditionally, the offender and victims alike.

ITA and I would like to add that loving unconditionally doesn't mean ignoring your child's bad behavior. If your kid shoplifts something, you can make him to back to the store to admit what he did, return the item, pay for it, and apologize. That doesn't mean you don't love him unconditionally. It means that you are teaching him right from wrong and that we have to face the consequences when we do something that is not only morally wrong but also illegal.

 

Loving someone unconditionally doesn't mean ignoring their mistakes. It means acknowledging that they made the wrong choice but you still love them. If your son got into a car accident, would you report it to the police and your car insurance? Or would you just pat him on the arm and tell him not to worry about it? There are so many instances when your children will make mistakes and you can love them unconditionally but still not let them pretend it didn't happen.

 

You can love your toddler unconditionally as he's having a temper tantrum but that doesn't mean you let him keep having temper tantrums without a timeout or some other kind of consequence. Being a parent means teaching your child what is acceptable behavior and what is not, setting boundaries, telling them when they have done something wrong, and taking steps to ensure that they won't make he same mistake again.

 

And if you love your children unconditionally, how does letting the perpetrator live in the same house having daily contact with his victims show your other children, the four daughters who were molested and violated, that you love THEM unconditionally? Forcing them to live with their abuser sends the message that you love them conditionally and that the abuser's feelings are more important than the victims' feelings. That's shitty parenting.

Edited May 26, 2015 by ElectricBoogaloo

[Celia Rubenstein]

 I think the only reason they went to the cop is because they already knew how he would react, like how my own father knew exactly what my neighbor cop would do when he marched me over to his house to receive a stern talking. 

 

Gee, you'd think the threat of eternal damnation would be enough to put Josh on the straight and narrow.  But I guess when that didn't work,  more earthly measures were called for.  Cue the Duggar version of "Scared Straight."

 

I can only hope it worked.  But I have a flaming doubts.  Years of incarceration and treatment often fails to change behavior like his. I find it hard to believe a stern lecture from a child pornographer did much good. 

[Micks Picks]

In Calif we have a prison set aside for trying to change sex abusers, mentally, chemically, and surgically.  The treatment extends the length of their sentences, although in some cases they are in on indefinite sentences.  Change the behavior or you don't ever get out.  Once in awhile somebody makes it out anyway and then the search is on for where they can live.  Basically no where is far enough away from potential victims.  Sometimes the only place is a trailer on prison grounds where they can live but go out with monitors on and cops watching.  You just can't stop some of them, ever.  Odd that we now have female teacher molesters, many of them.  I can't see falling in love with a 12 year old boy.  Anybody?

[GEML]

I'm not as convinced that it's as clear cut that it was poor Josh vs blame daughters. The Duggars did not force their daughters to become even more modest and dowdy after the incident (something I've actually seen) but instead they were allowed in adolescence to bloom into lovely young womanhood with no one yelling NIKE!

Josh was, perhaps, punished. There may at one time have been real plans for him to be educated as he had once talked about. But once this happened, it was better to have him doing heavy labor to tire him out, and provide him a "healthy" sexual outlet as its "better to marry than to burn." But that meant no political career for Josh. How could he have one, with this story lurking? Suddenly, the scene on the couch when Josh and Anna announce they are going to DC takes on all new meaning, doesn't it? (And I'm usually the one lecturing about not reinterpreting.). I'd read it as Josh and Anna being brave in spite of Jim Bob's resentment. Maybe what JimBob was thinking is,"there's no way you'll keep it hidden, and you'll bring down us all. DC is going to eat us alive."

And Anna knew. You can be naive and still know. But she knew. To say otherwise, as pointed out above, is to assume she and her family did not take seriously her courtship to Josh. And I believe she took it very seriously. Including her role as heroine. Who doesn't want to have a brave and romantic spiritual calling at the age of 19 in that world?

[Celia Rubenstein]

I wonder if, in their world, Anna gets bonus points for taking Josh on. Are her fellow fundie wives impressed, as opposed to skeeved out like most other people are? I can see them looking up to her in a way, as some kind of idealized helpmate who really walked the walk.

I also wonder if deep down inside, despite all the teachings and beliefs, she isn't just a little bit afraid for her daughter. I don't see how she couldn't be. I know these people are different. Blind faith in some pretty weird practices is a virtue to them. Still, I can't imagine not always having that concern in the back of my head. Faith or no faith, basic human instincts to protect your children have to still exist in her on some level. Don't they?

[Micks Picks]

Cecelia your last line shows the doubt most of us have, I'm afraid.  One would think so, but it isn't a fact in evidence or even a concern modeled by any of them.

[GEML]

This is the $1,000,000 question, isn't it? Is Josh Duggar still a threat? Did he actually stop doing the heinous acts when he had some maturity and what appears to be a loving marriage or is he still doing them or is he a ticking time bomb?

I'm sure we can all cite our own personal anecdotes and/or trot out experts to make whatever case we would want to make, a) because the research on young offenders is not terribly conclusive, b) we don't really have a lot of information c) we can't be sure what information we have is fully accurate d) we have no idea what information is missing.

We are all just guessing.

Edited May 26, 2015 by GEML

[starfire]

My understanding of the timeline is that it was 2002 when the first allegations of Josh molesting came to light. 2002 was the same year that JimBob lost his bid for the U.S. Senate. Interestingly enough, on JimBob's "positions" page on his campaign web site, he says, in part, "Rape and incest represent heinous crimes and as such should be treated as capital crimes."

 

Archived web site: http://web.archive.org/web/20030210014933/http://www.jimbob.info/position.html

[GEML]

Oooo! Nice catch.

[Micks Picks]

Starfire, catch of the week or more!

 

This says so much.  No wonder he lost.  Did he know where Afghanistan was?

[bluebonnet]

Definitely a very interesting catch.  I haven't seen this on any news source.  Have you submitted it anywhere yet, starfire? 

 

It's easy to understand why JimBob didn't make it far in politics.  But damn, he appears to be one of the least educated candidates ever.  

Edited May 26, 2015 by bluebonnet

[Sunnybobs]

I also think that even if the public don't expect her to or want her to Anna does love Josh and he her. Before this scandal was revealed the Josh/Anna board was quite admiring of them breaking out on their own, possibly becoming a little more relaxed in their fundamentalism, enjoying their freedom etc. Just because we are all rocked by this being news doesn't mean it's going to change everything in their lives. I do believe Anna knew what had occurred because reading Gothard literature shows the horrors can be explained & prayed away. I think they're going to be shocked at it becoming public and were naively thinking it was long ago history. I also wouldn't be surprised if they were genuinely shocked at the external public reaction as they might well see this as a closed, resolved issue (as wrong as this is) Also in all walks of life regardless of belief I'm sure many of us know women who have stayed with men hit by scandals as big and bigger than this.

[NextIteration]

Now I'm actually surprised the Duggars involved the police at all.  I suspect there may have been some concerns about church elders being designated reporters of abuse or something. maybe.  They seem to have no respect for the law at all, and it was probably just a CYA move.  I am sure they took the fact that the case went nowhere as a sign from God that he approved of their approach.

 

They didn't really, they brought in a pedoporn loving LE acquaintance to give Josh a "stern talking to" after he got back from whatever he was doing at that Gothard owned site for three months.  The only real police encounter came when the Harpo production team reported their asses.

 

There has been a lot of two sorts of speculation written about over what one would do in a situation like this personally with a son and daughters (or could be the other way round really) in a situation like the one presented here, I would most certainly "turn in" my child if they did something like this - I would think that it would mean being processed threw the juvenile court system and then placement in some sort of therapeutic group home, halfway type house or treatment facility - and then though I'm no longer religious, I would pray that the treatment would work.  I would never allow this child unsupervised access to my other child again.

 

The other often repeated meme is that victims/survivors are the most likely to repeat the behavior.  I'm not sure what the real statistics are on this, but I can tell you that knowing what it did to me, I couldn't fathom doing anything like what was done to me to anyone.  And to that end, my spouse thought I was a lunatic with how I probably overdid the good touch bad touch, run, yell, scream find an adult lessons for my kids - and I don't care that he thought that way because I've seen my kids to adulthood with nothing ever happening to them.  Of course, I'm still crossing my fingers because we all know the danger continues as we are adults, it's just a different sort, and as fully developed adults, they have better tools to protect themselves.

[CofCinci]

My understanding of the timeline is that it was 2002 when the first allegations of Josh molesting came to light. 2002 was the same year that JimBob lost his bid for the U.S. Senate. Interestingly enough, on JimBob's "positions" page on his campaign web site, he says, in part, "Rape and incest represent heinous crimes and as such should be treated as capital crimes."

Archived web site: http://web.archive.org/web/20030210014933/http://www.jimbob.info/position.html

Capital crime -- for everyone but his first borne son.

[WalrusGirl]

It's unfortunate for the victims that their identities can't just remain private; however, the age range of the victims is significant in terms of what sort of help Josh needed and what kind of risk he is to commit crimes in the future.

That's so right. The news about a current minor successfully having the records destroyed spells out the young end of the age range for everyone (the general public didn't slog through the police report), yet I don't remember any of those pieces pointing out how old (young) that would have made them in 2002/2003. Perhaps to not draw additional attention to their (probable) identity (the MSM does seem very conscious of that), which I'm all for, it's just...I hate to say "worse" and apply some kind of ranking to abuse, because that's not what I mean, but the outlying age would make it harder for those thinking "teenage curiosity; didn't know appropriate boundaries" and defending Josh accordingly to make that case.

And how crazy unlucky is that? I mean, if there's any family where you'd think you could give a general victim age range while leaving reasonable ambiguity, it would be this one! *disgusted sigh*

I tend to think it's perfectly plausible that Anna knew enough, as she claims, but do wonder whether she had exact details like the bottom end of the age range. I can still see her going forward with the courtship, with her parents' encouragement. But whether she knew that then or just recently, I'd imagine her feelings now as a mother, watching her kids reach that age, will be very different than how her teenage self was told to react.

Though the world being against her husband, and largely her and her family, will likely just bond them tighter together in the short-term. She clearly adores Josh, and I think we've perceived their relationship as being solid (true feelings on ideal family size aside). But if she ever wanted to leave, doesn't she have a sibling or two who have broken out/become estranged to varying degrees? [edit: the sister autumnh mentioned) (I'm also remembering a sister who's become more mainstream "under her husband's headship, so it's not totally her fault.") So it would seem more a true option for her, and she'd have family for support. So there's that.

Edited May 26, 2015 by WalrusGirl

[NextIteration]

Archived web site: http://web.archive.org/web/20030210014933/http://www.jimbob.info/position.html

 

Excellent catch!  No wonder this man didn't hold up in the primaries with his zealotry.  

[starfire]

bluebonnet, on 26 May 2015 - 02:46 AM, said:

Definitely a very interesting catch.  I haven't seen this on any news source.  Have you submitted it anywhere yet, starfire? 

 

It's easy to understand why JimBob didn't make it far in politics.  But damn, he appears to be one of the least educated candidates ever.  

No I haven't submitted it anywhere. If you or anyone else wants to, feel free.

[KittyS]

I thought this WaPo editorial on the complicated nature of forgiveness, especially with regards to religion, was very interesting. For some, I'm sure there will never be forgiveness. For those who do forgive, there is no one path to forgiveness. It makes me wonder if the Duggar girls have been given the freedom not to forgive or to each forgive in her own way. Honestly, I doubt it. They have never struck me as the sort of family that has much respect for individuality.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2015/05/22/why-we-cant-expect-sex-abuse-victims-to-generate-instant-forgiveness/?tid=sm_fb

Edited May 26, 2015 by KittyS

[mbutterfly]

His victims were, as far as the reports and data about the family can be interpreted, potentially between the ages of 5 and 12. Isn't THAT enough? Blood relationships have nothing to do with the horror of what he did.

 

(I'm uncomfortable with the idea that somehow it's "more" horrible because it's incest. He molested young girls who were not capable of consent. That is ENOUGH. His relationship to them is beside the point to me.)

I certainly agree about the incest, but the tragic thing is that his sisters had to continue to live and sleep in the same house. Except for his time away, they surely didn't feel safe. It's a horrible situation. 

[becca3891]

Yuck. The recently surfaced incest joke of Josh's from 2008 shows he's not repentant at all. Or at the very least, he has absolutely no concept of the aftermath of molestation for his sisters. To joke about incest was incredibly insensitive. I can't help thinking that he may be one of those people whose brain lacks empathy because his statement was all about him. "He told me that if I continued down this path, it would ruin my life." 

[WalrusGirl]

I think Anna was clueless. Completely. Her dad, not so much. If my instincts are correct, and based on what other posters have suggested, he knew A LOT. That makes him just as disgusting as JB & M, maybe even more so.

If he did know (much more than her knowing as a teenager), I agree - it's even worse. "At least" JB&M were in the very unenviable position of not wanting to turn their backs on their 14-15 year old. (Seeing as how they clearly tried to safeguard the kids going forward - dormitory bedrooms and bathrooms, no one really getting to be alone, separating the siblings by gender, girls leading buddy groups - despite Josh continuing to live in the house (so in my mind they still failed in their duty to their daughters, but I do honestly see sincere, if screwed up, efforts in that respect), I actually think (off the top of my head) that their biggest failing was the sexual abuse "education." Though I guess whether Michelle used that Gothard material is technically speculation. But constantly, to this day, saying how people/women are responsible for not raising desires in men. That's probably overall worse on some of them than the possible lack of any real therapy - which it sounds like DCFS may have mandated in 2006 - since they diverted blame to the girls every time they said it. Which has been a LOT.)

(Which is why I actually love Mike Seewald's blog. I didn't - couldn't - expect it not to toe the forgiveness/redemption line of his sincerely held beliefs, but the guy was actually the harshest on Josh of anyone in their circle I've seen, and explicitly told victims it was never their fault. I'm unfamiliar with this feeling, but: yay Mike Seewald. I even made the effort to learn his first name now! That was as good as it was going to get. And was also about as strong as it could get - any stronger, publicly, against Josh and it would have brought both unwanted media attention and family backlash directly to Jessa, which would just add to her current problems, none of which are her fault. Saying more can be supportive privately, but not publicly.)

But Pa Keller? If he knew a not-totally-whitewashed version, he wasn't standing by and supporting any child of his, but rather potentially actively putting his daughter and future grandchildren at risk. To "save"/fix someone else's son's problems. (I've seen no flags in Josh's family's footage that that's borne out - honestly he seems/seemed like a good dad, and he and Anna seem good - but I'm referencing the huge red "sexual predator tendencies" flag that was waved just a few years out, and early enough to bow out gracefully.)

(I'd feel much less harshly if he got the outline that didn't include "sleeping/unconscious" or the lower age range; that would make it more on par with what we all initially hoped it was, something "inappropriate" but consensual with a similarly-aged peer.)

The trooper was allegedly a family friend. [...] I imagine that this cop did the same thing, only everyone was treating a minor molesting children as something insignificant like coming home five minutes late or a 16 year old seeing an R rated film. I think the only reason they went to the cop is because they already knew how he would react.

Maybe. I think most parents in that situation would seek out someone they already knew (you're likely at enough of a loss, and seeking advice on something awful from people you already know), though I also think most parents wouldn't have gone to chat with a cop, period. (It would have been the police seeking them out after a treatment center or therapist submitted the mandatory report.) It really was too huge a risk for me to think JB was simultaneously actively trying to cover it up during that timeframe. Maybe he hoped it would be let go, but I think JB would have realized that Josh was old enough for it to be an actual crime, and that mandatory reporters exist, particularly for minors, and would logically include law enforcement. Your dad knew there was no crime and no chance of arrest; I think JB knew enough to know that was hardly a sure thing.

By all known accounts, the abuse didn't recur after that point (after Josh got back from three months away), so while I fault JB&M for not doing other things, not actively seeking out a second police officer to please arrest the 15 year old son they're hoping/believe is repented and reformed, because the first cop didn't, isn't one of them. :-/

But that meant no political career for Josh. How could he have one, with this story lurking? Suddenly, the scene on the couch when Josh and Anna announce they are going to DC takes on all new meaning, doesn't it? (And I'm usually the one lecturing about not reinterpreting.). I'd read it as Josh and Anna being brave in spite of Jim Bob's resentment. Maybe what JimBob was thinking is,"there's no way you'll keep it hidden, and you'll bring down us all. DC is going to eat us alive."

That's how I've (re)interpreted JB's tense vibe with Josh and his opposition to the job/move too. It was asking for documented skeletons to come out, far more than the family cable reality show; he just wouldn't have gotten the former (this young) without the latter. Edited May 26, 2015 by WalrusGirl

[Aja]

It's not surprising. The consequences Josh faced for molesting his siblings were to become a great big reality TV star while his victims were forced to smile and keep on serving him. If that doesn't reinforce your "I'm God's chosen special boy" complex, I don't know what will. One doesn't really need to look much further than that (and throw in his "it would have ruined MY life" public statement too) to make a pretty solid educated guess on whether or not he is still dangerous, and whether or not he should have power and authority over children.

Edited May 26, 2015 by Aja

[brandyelf]

I really feel compassion for the Duggar daughters.

1. they were molested by the brother that they were taught to look up to and obey.

2. they were forced to forgive me and I believe apologize to him for defrauding him.

3.they were forced to live with their molester, never knowing if he would invade their bodies again. They had to sit across the dining room table from him for meals, homeschooling and bible time.

4. they had to cook his meals, launder his clothes including his skid marked undies, clean his pee in the bathrooms and pack his stuff for trips.

5. they had to babysit his children and travel with him

6. they had to keep sweet and practice instant obedience while doing this.

 

I really worry about the level of guilt that these poor girls have to carry.

7. They had to do all of the above on television while the entire world watched.

[anony mouse]

In Calif we have a prison set aside for trying to change sex abusers, mentally, chemically, and surgically. The treatment extends the length of their sentences, although in some cases they are in on indefinite sentences. Change the behavior or you don't ever get out. Once in awhile somebody makes it out anyway and then the search is on for where they can live. Basically no where is far enough away from potential victims. Sometimes the only place is a trailer on prison grounds where they can live but go out with monitors on and cops watching. You just can't stop some of them, ever. Odd that we now have female teacher molesters, many of them. I can't see falling in love with a 12 year old boy. Anybody?

In my opinion, there is a vast difference between adult sex offenders and adolescent offenders. At 14, Josh was at an age where he may have been motivated by other factors than the usual adult sex offender, which would affect the likelihood of recidivism. He was young enough that his actions may have been born from his environment, rather than an innate urge we see with habitual adult offenders.

None of this is meant to excuse his actions, as they were wrong regardless of his motivation, but I don't think we can automatically paint him with the same brush as adult offenders without more information. Unless more information comes out, he hasn't offended again, which could be a sign he was not motivated to offend in the traditional pattern of adult sex offenders, and thus may not reoffend.

[silversage]

I'm trying to keep up with all the reading so I apologize if this has been said before. I wonder if the victim who asked for the police records to be destroyed was forced to do that.

[Julia]

I think the possibility of Josh reoffending or having reoffended is a slippery slope. I don't see how it can be discussed without crossing into discussing possible victims and scenarios of victimization, which we've been asked not to do. And since we really don't have any accurate information,  I'm not sure I see a value in our hypothetical conclusions.