Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[Fuzzysox]

This is exactly why this story has captured so many people's interest.  More and more discussion is taking place regarding rape culture and victim blaming in terms of placing the blame for sexual assault and domestic violence on the victims.  At the same time, we have a public forum given to the Duggars to preach their beliefs that young girls need to be covered up to keep from "defrauding" boys and men, leading them to sin.  The onus is placed firmly on the girls and women.  Additionally the men are harmed by this ridiculous assertion that they cannot control themselves.   JB&M fed this crap to their children.  Josh helps spread it further.

 

Reading this board, so many people have mentioned their history of familial abuse or rape.  You can add me to that count.  While I know there are people that don't like the term triggers since, as often happens, it may be hitting the point of overuse, this story is a trigger for so many people who have been abused.  So thanks to Josh, JB & Michelle, so many people are now reliving or rethinking horrific events from their past. 

 

The Duggars have held themselves up as a perfect family, one to which we should all aspire.  Underneath that picture was a perverted elder son who was able to abuse his sisters and non-family members.  He repented, but did he atone?  From the smug douche bag we have seen, I doubt he did.

 

And now I want a bumper sticker that reads "God loves annulments". 

 

 

Even my everyday church going MIL got one. There is no shame. Now it's even easier if your Catholic. Anna now might be the perfect time to convert.

[Sew Sumi]

People has turned on the Duggars and brings Gothard out of the shadows and into the Mainstream conversation. About time! 

 

(edited because People changed the url)

 

http://www.people.com/article/inside-josh-duggar-treatment-

 

I think People getting their collective heads out of JB's ass is a bad sign for the future of the show. TLC can't be feeling good right about now. 

Edited May 24, 2015 by Sew Sumi

[autumnh]

Wow, PEOPLE magazine is actually reporting about the Duggars in a negative light (I say that because it is usually sparkles and rainbows when they feature them). I think the Duggar shiny facade is not so shiny anymore. I doubt we'll see more featured articles.

 

http://www.people.com/article/online-commenter-warned-josh-duggar-molestation

[JoanArc]

Never mind autmnh beat me to it!

 

People posting negative info now leads me to believe they've broken whatever pro-duggar-news contract existed.

Edited May 24, 2015 by JoanArc

[Guest]

From the WaPo article:

"The same year, a reporter for the Northwest Arkansas Times, who now works for the Democrat-Gazette, finds a court document for a case titled Josh Duggar vs. the Arkansas Department of Human Services. The Democrat-Gazette reports:

A trial in that case took place Aug. 6, 2007, according to notes attached to the file. Sealed cases aren’t supposed to be left in public view, but the Duggar case file had been left in a stack of routine court filings at the circuit clerk’s office. The reporter saw no other information on the case at the time.

I sure hope there's an enterprising reporter out there willing to do some legwork to get the details on this because I would sure love to know why Josh sued the DHS.

[truthtalk2014]

I hope Josh loses everything. I hope Anna gets away with all the kids and finds support and financial help from OUTSIDE the Gothards so she can start her life over. I hope ALL the kids get the Hell outta dodge, maybe staying with the older girls, married or not, and they can make new lives together with the only REAL mother they've ever known.

And JB and Michelle ? I hope they get old and get stuck in the shittiest horrorshow of a nursing home in existence. They Michelle can say "I have 19 children and I delivered them ALL, and now NONE of them come to visit me..."

 

I wish Anna would get away and get a job or learn a trade or something.  I am hoping this is a big wake up call for her - just how fast things can change.  The money can end very quickly.  What none of these girls understand is that their husbands might not be around forever to support them.  Look at Derricks Dad.  That had to have been horrible and they only had two children.  However, at least Cathy had a career.  These girls have nothing.  They assume that because the loser Boob is still plowing along being as perverted as ever, that it always works out that way.  

 

I read somewhere that Oprah offered to send Jana and Jill to a real school midwifery school and they declined.  Of course they can't go out and be around perverts in the real world.  Gotta stay home and deal with the good Christians.  Barf!

 

As far as JB and MEchelle- I hope they do as well.  Or maybe Josie will take care of them and film them when she has to change their poopy diapers.  

Edited May 24, 2015 by AmandaPanda
remove inflammatory language

[HumblePi]

Not planning on going over there, because I expect it'll break my brain more than I can afford, but if everything everyone said isn't real or true, what is Josh repenting for?

I read just about all I could stand from Michael Seewald. This paragraph in particular almost 'broke my brain' as you say.

 

"There are others that see this episode as a result of sheltering and repressing human desires. They think that had he access to sex education by Planned Parenthood, been allowed to watch edgy Hollywood films, been encouraged to experimentation with a girlfriend, or gotten free condoms from the local school nurse, then none of this would have happened. Right. The stupidity of some people is mind boggling. Fan the flames of youthful lust and you end up with what we have: unprecedented numbers of unwed mothers, millions of abortions, rampant STDs, and the unraveling of the fabric of our whole society. Josh didn’t sin because he was repressed, he sinned because like all of us he is a sinner."

 

[snip]

Edited May 24, 2015 by Rhondinella
posted outside comment

[Rhondinella]

Let's please not post comments that come from other message boards here to discuss them, or else your mods will never get any sleep (or, more importantly, get to watch GoT live tonight). If you want to respond to something from another site, respond there, not here. Thanks.

[autumnh]

And yet another horrifying response from another Quiverfull believer...

 

http://www.rawstory.com/2015/05/mom-of-gun-toting-quiverfull-family-14-year-old-josh-duggar-was-playing-doctor-so-leave-him-alone/

 

[LilyoftheValley]

The fact that Josh referred to this as "temptation" years after he supposedly repented, is a huge red flag to me that he never understood what exactly it was that he did wrong.  I mean, "temptation" is a normal thing that everyone deals with day in and day out; pedophilia isn't.  The fact that he has conflated the two is horribly distressing to me, and a sign that he never got help and that he still has the same urges.  

 

If he very brazenly molested his own sisters, then I am not confident that this all ended a few years ago.  He cockiness, which was once just annoying, is suddenly extremely terrifying.  

I read just about all I could stand from Michael Seewald. This paragraph in particular almost 'broke my brain' as you say.

 

"There are others that see this episode as a result of sheltering and repressing human desires. They think that had he access to sex education by Planned Parenthood, been allowed to watch edgy Hollywood films, been encouraged to experimentation with a girlfriend, or gotten free condoms from the local school nurse, then none of this would have happened. Right. The stupidity of some people is mind boggling. Fan the flames of youthful lust and you end up with what we have: unprecedented numbers of unwed mothers, millions of abortions, rampant STDs, and the unraveling of the fabric of our whole society. Josh didn’t sin because he was repressed, he sinned because like all of us he is a sinner."

 

[snip]

She has this all backwards.  I do not think that access to planned parenthood and condoms prevents sexual abuse.  What I do not buy for one second is that their fundie beliefs and lifestyle prevent all of this from happening, which is what they claim.  They are very clear that if everyone in the world believed and lived like them, then women and men both would be virgins until marriage and then only have sex with their spouse until one of them dies.  

 

My question to this woman is this: if none of your beliefs or lifestyle choices make any difference whatsoever in your children's sexual morality, then what's the point?  You might as well then just let them have mainstream lives. 

[Almost 3000]

Was it his own bedroom? I thought it was a work room - he was into movie editing etc then and it had his equipment in it, but I don't remember a bed?

I thought there was only a studio for the boys too but there is a large closet on the plans. If you look up Duggar Floor Plan, Kodiak Steele Homes (pdf) comes up. They have the plans. Both the girls and boys rooms have a long storage room along the back wall. I think those are what we saw when M&JB and Josie were looking for the crib for Mbaby. The girls has a sewing room and the boys has a studio. Both have two baths with tubs and the girls have that extra hair/make-up area outside their baths that if I remember correctly has extra sinks. The girls room has no closet but the boys has a large closet on the side that seems to have head room that could have a bed in it. Opposite that is I'm assuming the slide to the first floor because its not marked.

[mynextmistake]

Of course we're all sinners. But we aren't all criminals. I am admittedly not part of a fundamentalist cult, but I don't understand why nobody associated with this family seems to recognize this difference. What Josh did wasn't *just* a sin. It was a crime as well. You don't get a do-over for it by confessing and praying. That's not enough.

The Bible recognizes a distinction between spiritual and secular consequences for behavior -- why don't these people?

[Pasha Kitty]

How was this brought to the public's attention (two days ago)?  I don't know who/what cracked this open.  I mean, Josh didn't just reveal this himself, right?  Would somebody please let me know the chain of events?  Thanks.

[NextIteration]

And yet another horrifying response from another Quiverfull believer...

 

http://www.rawstory.com/2015/05/mom-of-gun-toting-quiverfull-family-14-year-old-josh-duggar-was-playing-doctor-so-leave-him-alone/

 

Oh for fook's sake, 3-6 yr olds play doctor, not 14 year old adolescents.  Aren't theses people buybull thumpers?  Don't they know that real men had families at 14 in the damn buybull?

[mynextmistake]

How was this brought to the public's attention (two days ago)?  I don't know who/what cracked this open.  I mean, Josh didn't just reveal this himself, right?  Would somebody please let me know the chain of events?  Thanks.

The timeline has been discussed multiple times upthread. I think there's a link to a story by the Washington Post that should explain the sequence of events if you're interested.

[leighdear]

 

I think they got the marriage license in Arkansas, but had the ceremony in Florida.

Good point if the marriage was registered in Arkansas.  I honestly think it's a rhetorical question at this point.  She's shackled to him for life.  And I really don't think she deserves so much shit.  She's a good mom & a nice gal, just naive and a bit stupid.  

[EarlGreyTea]

Wow, PEOPLE magazine is actually reporting about the Duggars in a negative light (I say that because it is usually sparkles and rainbows when they feature them). I think the Duggar shiny facade is not so shiny anymore. I doubt we'll see more featured articles.

 

http://www.people.com/article/online-commenter-warned-josh-duggar-molestation

 

Pretty shrewd of PEOPLE.  As nauseating  and overwrought as their Duggar coverage was before, they seemed to realize quickly that this would hurt their bottom line and seemed to have cut the Duggars loose. I glanced at the comments and they're scathing. PEOPLE seems to realize public opinion has turned against the Duggars, for the most part (not some fundies' opinions, but PEOPLE has always aimed itself toward the mainstream, who seem much more horrified by all this). TLC should take note.

 

And although I know this negative coverage is probably more about money and hits, I'm really glad PEOPLE is not shying away from reporting on the story.

 

Strange to think the Duggars are still drawing in the readers and website visits for PEOPLE - but for completely different, despicable reasons.

Edited May 24, 2015 by EarlGreyTea

[Chalby]

 other large family that refused to film with them a few months back. 

Even if Josh's guilt wasn't an issue, I don't think the Willis' would bother with the Duggars. The Willis family loves to dance, and we know what the Duggar's feel about that. As well, the Willis family isn't as uptight with their courtship rules. I never could understand Josh and Anna's no kiss rule while dating. I have found that no matter how attracted you are to another, the proof is in the kiss. Hasn't anyone else found that after a kiss, you view the other person differently? The kiss can make or break a relationship.

[autumnh]

Even if Josh's guilt wasn't an issue, I don't think the Willis' would bother with the Duggars. The Willis family loves to dance, and we know what the Duggar's feel about that. As well, the Willis family isn't as uptight with their courtship rules. I never could understand Josh and Anna's no kiss rule while dating. I have found that no matter how attracted you are to another, the proof is in the kiss. Hasn't anyone else found that after a kiss, you view the other person differently? The kiss can make or break a relationship.

 

Agreed. I am not saying you need have sex with someone...but a kiss? Absolutely.  I don't care what a persons religion is....within a marriage there has to be some sexual desire...and well? Holding hands cannot forge that kind of connection. 

 

You know what always bothers me? JB always side hugs his daughters...which leads me to believe...does frontal hugging his daughters give him impure thoughts?

 

Ahh..he is such a creeper.

[mynextmistake]

Pretty shrewd of PEOPLE.  As nauseating  and overwrought as their Duggar coverage was before, they seemed to realize quickly that this would hurt their bottom line and seemed to have cut the Duggars loose. I glanced at the comments and they're scathing. PEOPLE seems to realize public opinion has turned against the Duggars, for the most part (not some fundies' opinions, but PEOPLE has always aimed itself toward the mainstream, who seem much more horrified by all this). TLC should take note.

 

And although I know this negative coverage is probably more about money and hits, I'm really glad PEOPLE is not shying away from reporting on the story.

 

Strange to think the Duggars are still drawing in the readers and website visits for PEOPLE - but for completely different, despicable reasons.

Yeah, I've seen a fair number of folks who are upset about the positive reactions the Duggars are getting, but I haven't really seen any of those positive reactions myself. I've only read comments on the mainstream news sites and my personal facebook, but the vast majority of those have been very critical of JB/M and Josh. Hell, even Mike Seewald's post wasn't unequivocally supportive. I'm sure there are fundies out there who are working overtime to post their support of Josh and his parents, but I don't think their responses are reflective of what most of the public thinks about this. I'm glad to hear that even the usually pro-Duggar People commentors recognize what a serious thing this is.

[HumblePi]

I thought there was only a studio for the boys too but there is a large closet on the plans. If you look up Duggar Floor Plan, Kodiak Steele Homes (pdf) comes up. They have the plans. Both the girls and boys rooms have a long storage room along the back wall. I think those are what we saw when M&JB and Josie were looking for the crib for Mbaby. The girls has a sewing room and the boys has a studio. Both have two baths with tubs and the girls have that extra hair/make-up area outside their baths that if I remember correctly has extra sinks. The girls room has no closet but the boys has a large closet on the side that seems to have head room that could have a bed in it. Opposite that is I'm assuming the slide to the first floor because its not marked.

I had read that the molestation took place in the communal bedroom of the girls. Which to me, is even worse than the molestation taking place in a closet or in a computer room or ANYWHERE else in that house. The little ones were there in their own twin beds during these incidents. I had read one article that made light of the whole thing by saying that "he touched her breasts and vaginal area and all the while the girl was reading a book."  Holy shit, how could anyone try to make it sound as though the girl was bored and not alarmed or scared?  If any one of the girls was 'reading a book' while being sexually molested by her older brother, it was probably the Bible and she was asking for forgiveness for causing him to lust and do that to her. That's the way this cult thinks.

[autumnh]

I had read that the molestation took place in the communal bedroom of the girls. Which to me, is even worse than the molestation taking place in a closet or in a computer room or ANYWHERE else in that house. The little ones were there in their own twin beds during these incidents. I had read one article that made light of the whole thing by saying that "he touched her breasts and vaginal area and all the while the girl was reading a book."  Holy shit, how could anyone try to make it sound as though the girl was bored and not alarmed or scared?  If any one of the girls was 'reading a book' while being sexually molested by her older brother, it was probably the Bible and she was asking for forgiveness for causing him to lust and do that to her. That's the way this cult thinks.

 

 

Yes...this.

 

They were babies...under 11 years old. How can parents even make excuses? I have no doubt that the Duggar girls who were sexually assaulted were made to feel it was their fault...even at under 11 years old...

 

I can hear it now..."How dare you go through puberty and tempt your brother!"

 

Just so much UGH.

Edited May 25, 2015 by autumnh

[Chalby]

This story is the tip of a very large, very ugly iceberg methinks. 

 

I worry about Anna and her blind faith in Josh. I don't know how many of you watched episodes where Anna was always alluding to wanting to be pregnant again, and I got the feeling that Josh wasn't as accommodating in that area, which was fine by me. Anna is a good mom, seems a decent enough wife, however, whenever she becomes pregnant it only serves to remind me that she is willingly intimate with Josh. That baby train needs to come to an end, now. Anne needs to educate herself and accept any and all offers that allow her to escape. She and the children should not be punished for the sins of the father.

[Mrsjumbo]

JMHO , but I bet someone at TLC is deleting interoffice emails re: the Duggars, esp. after finding out that the Oprah show refused to interview them in 2006. I think TLC knew exactly the rumors but chose to push it under the rug because RATINGS!

Some reporter is going to be doing a jailhouse interview with the child porn cop. A stripper will come forward with a story about Josh (though I find that story hard to believe. Fayetteville is not big- city; you can't go anywhere without running into someone you know & I don't think even Josh was stupid enough to risk it).

This story still makes me sick to my stomach but I think it will be in the news for awhile as new details come out.

[TaxNerd]

I had read that the molestation took place in the communal bedroom of the girls.

I think it was the old house.

I wonder how Anna is dealing with the pregnancy. As of last Wed. she had a birthing center, a midwife and a life in DC. How is she going to deliver now? A homebirth with Jill attending? My guess is it may be just her and Josh delivering at home, with little support.

This will also be her first birth that won't be filmed for TLC and won't be publicly celebrated.

Edited May 25, 2015 by TaxNerd

[Sew Sumi]

The molestation happened at the old Johnson Rd. home. They didn't move into the TTH until early 2006, years after the incidents in question occurred. 

[Mrsjumbo]

Josh I don't give 2 hoots for but I do worry about all this stress on Anna during her pregnancy.

[ariel]

http://matthewbdrake.com/2015/05/23/three-reasons-why-you-should-shut-up-about-the-josh-duggar-scandal/

Just read this about one person's view about discussing the molestation, etc.

Matthew is the one who is ill-informed & should stfu.

Edited May 25, 2015 by ariel

[ghoulina]

It seems they're harder to get than I thought. Maybe Anna could get a divorce then ask the congregation for forgiveness. That seems to be a solid option with these folk. *Barf*

 

Sadly I think the only ones who can just confess and receive absolution from the church are the men. Surely all Anna would get is admonitions on how this is somehow her fault.

[natyxg]

I had read that the molestation took place in the communal bedroom of the girls. Which to me, is even worse than the molestation taking place in a closet or in a computer room or ANYWHERE else in that house. The little ones were there in their own twin beds during these incidents. I had read one article that made light of the whole thing by saying that "he touched her breasts and vaginal area and all the while the girl was reading a book."  Holy shit, how could anyone try to make it sound as though the girl was bored and not alarmed or scared?  If any one of the girls was 'reading a book' while being sexually molested by her older brother, it was probably the Bible and she was asking for forgiveness for causing him to lust and do that to her. That's the way this cult thinks.

 

This feels super inaccurate. One of the most interesting things about this whole thing is seeing how the story keeps changing as people keep repeating it.

 

I read the report as best as I could, cause it was really hard with so many of the words blacked out, but what I understood was that he would go into the room when the girls were asleep. There was also a similar incident with a girl who was visiting (or was it babysitting?) and fell asleep on the couch. But things escalated and there was an incident in the middle of the day in the laundry room, plus the reading book incident, which was completely different from the bolded and was probably the worst incident, imo. I found it very disturbing. It is on page 22. It was after the book incident, according to the child being interviewed, that he was sent away, almost immediately.

 

Someone correct me if I got it wrong cause, like I said, it was a headache to read.

Edited May 25, 2015 by natyxg

[Chalby]

I think true forgiveness, not the forced "forgiveness" inflicted on the Duggar girls, is probably similar. It's done more to heal yourself than to lie to yourself and others about any "goodness" in the other person. 

Good post. That goes hand in hand with the ideation that one can "forgive" but one will never "forget", that way the behaviour won't be allowed to continue.

[Literata]

My belief is that Anna knew before she married Josh that he had committed "mistakes," but there's no way she knew he was going to third base with his own sisters, including one who was 4. How can anyone defend these acts of absolute depravity and violence? Jesus. There is just no fucking way.

I wonder how in the world she could fathom being intimate with him now. And how she can't wonder, deep down, if he's ever touched MacKynzie.

Edited May 25, 2015 by Literata

[backformore]

One of the most frustrating things for me is that Duggar supporters keep harping that the parents turned Josh in (they didn't) and they got both Josh and his victims "counseling" (they didn't).

 

"Counseling" is a very ambiguous word.  A person could have a heart to heart talk with their grandmother and they would not be lying if they said they had received "counseling".  Any idiot can hang a shingle outside their door or place an ad in the paper claiming to be a therapist.  There is no regulatory body overseeing "therapists".

 

What these children needed was to see a licensed clinical psychologist (a position that it is illegal to claim to hold if you do not, unlike therapist), but their supporters think they have received all the "counseling" they needed.  It makes my blood boil.

That's not exactly true. States have licensing laws for therapists. I am a licensed clinical professional counselor. That means, in my state, a master's degree in psychology plus at least 2years of experience under supervision, passing a licensing test And 30 hours of continuing education credits every 3years. Those are the qualifications needed in my state to call yourself a licensed psychotherapist.

[HumblePi]

Michael & Guinn Seewald must be very busy today deleting all replies to comments that aren't positive and praising the Duggar family. I've left 5 replies to comments there, and they have all 'waiting moderation',  they are there one minute,  then they aren't.  Poof.

[leighdear]

Damage control, HumblePi.  If they had documents to shred, there would be feverish activity in that household.  These days, you just need a good Wi-Fi connection, plenty of caffeine and fingers that don't cramp as they continually hit that "delete" button.  

[becca3891]

This feels super inaccurate. One of the most interesting things about this whole thing is seeing how the story keeps changing as people keep repeating it.

 

I read the report as best as I could, cause it was really hard with so many of the words blacked out, but what I understood was that he would go into the room when the girls were asleep. There was also a similar incident with a girl who was visiting (or was it babysitting?) and fell asleep on the couch. But things escalated and there was an incident in the middle of the day in the laundry room, plus and the reading book incident, which was completely different than the bolded and was probably the worst incident, imo. I found it very disturbing. It is on page 22.

 

Someone correct me if I got it wrong cause, like I said, it was a headache to read.

Yes, the book reading on lap incident with the youngest victim (I guess we are no longer naming them?) was especially troubling. While reading a book out loud to his siblings, Josh reached into her pants that she was wearing underneath her dress and touched her. She threw her book down and ran out of the room, and someone called Jim Bob and Michelle, who were out to dinner, and told them what had happened.

 

Michael & Guinn Seewald must be very busy today deleting all replies to comments that aren't positive and praising the Duggar family. I've left 5 replies to comments there, and they have all 'waiting moderation',  they are there one minute,  then they aren't.  Poof.

I swallowed my pride and made my post civil enough that it would not get deleted, because I wanted them and their followers to actually be able to read and consider what I had to say.

[TaxNerd]

My belief is that Anna knew before she married Josh that he had committed "mistakes," but there's no way she knew he was going to third base with his own sisters, including one who was 4.

I kind of wonder if she even knows it now.

[autumnh]

My husband...who does not "watch" the Duggars but who has been present on the couch with the Ipad while I watched it said to me just now...

 

I wonder why Kirk Cameron hasn't said a word. I thought...yes...I wonder why. I am betting ol' Kirk is running as far away from this as possible.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_5oDxd0p-A

[Literata]

The Willises are on in the background as I fold laundry. I'm not terribly interested in this family, but my God, it's a huge relief to assume that, while I can't stand the oldest daughter's singing voice, the oldest brother in that house is most likely keeping his hands off the rest of his siblings.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm emotionally exhausted by all this. My husband can't fathom why I'm so upset about kids I've never met, and with whom I have absolutely nothing in common, ideologically or otherwise.

But when you think about it -- not to be melodramatic, but we've seen footage of eight of them drawing their first breaths. It's difficult not to feel some sense of affection, and a very real sense of horror.

Edited May 25, 2015 by Literata

[NextIteration]

The inaccuracies in comments across tehInterwebz is pretty astounding but expected in a situation such as this.  I was sort of wondering, because I'm mostly just reading links and not many comments but here and there mostly on liberal aggregators and websites, what the true "whole" reaction to this story was since I've mostly cocooned myself here.  It would seem with the new post by People that reaction is really breaking against Boob, Me'Chelle and Josh (did I get that right?) and that the Christian right is breaking their necks trying to quell the uprising.

 

I feel so bad for the girls that I almost feel guilty that I'm pleased that people are recognizing all of this for what it is, even if they aren't taking in all of the political minutia of the situation, white male patriarchy, victim shaming, rape culture and all of that.  I'm also pleased that so many other survivors are speaking out, have found our collective voices.  It's about damn time, maybe, just maybe this is a turning point?  I just hate that it might be expense of these girls.

 

I think from what I've been watching, the website FreeJinger deserves some credit in all of this because they have been shit disturbing and emailing all kinds of news outlets with info about the training center, the "Alice" posts and other things.

 

I guess the best I can do is send kind healing thoughts to all my fellow survivors, including the Duggar girls +1. ♥

[Fuzzysox]

The Willises are on in the background as I fold laundry. I'm not terribly interested in this family, but my God, it's a huge relief to assume that, while I can't stand the oldest daughter's singing voice, the oldest brother in that house is most likely keeping his hands off the rest of his siblings.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm emotionally exhausted by all this. My husband can't fathom why I'm so upset about kids I've never met, and with whom I have absolutely nothing in common, ideologically or otherwise.

But when you think about it -- not to be melodramatic, but we've seen footage of eight of them drawing their first breaths. It's difficult not to feel some sense of affection, and a very real sense of horror.

We are all on the same boat. I couldn't sleep last night. We all knew they were strange but none of us were prepared for this.

[ms.o]

I just re watched the Digging in episode. It's so different in hindsight. Michelle's comment about how if you stir up desires in a male that cannot be "righteously fulfilled" then You are responsible. They immediately showed Jinger and Jessa - and their faces made me tear up.

[CofCinci]

I just re watched the Digging in episode. It's so different in hindsight. Michelle's comment about how if you stir up desires in a male that cannot be "righteously fulfilled" then You are responsible. They immediately showed Jinger and Jessa - and their faces made me tear up.

What the hell is wrong with Michelle?!

[msblossom]

Yes, the book reading on lap incident with the youngest victim (I guess we are no longer naming them?) was especially troubling. While reading a book out loud to his siblings, Josh reached into her pants that she was wearing underneath her dress and touched her. She threw her book down and ran out of the room, and someone called Jim Bob and Michelle, who were out to dinner, and told them what had happened.

According to Alice, it was the 2nd eldest daughter who told on Josh. ETA: I don't know if this is the specific violation that prompted her to tell on Josh or not.

Interesting, bc many years later he referred to this sibling as a 'snitch' on the All about Jill episode last year.

Edited May 25, 2015 by msblossom

[ehr1006]

I haven't seen this one posted yet: http://www.people.com/article/online-commenter-warned-josh-duggar-molestation

 

People is really singing a different tune now, aren't they?

[Fuzzysox]

What the hell is wrong with Michelle?!

She drank TOO much Kool-Aid. The only way to fix her is to de-program her and the rest of the family. They could benefit from a visit from Carolyn Jessop.....I've said this time and again.

[merylinkid]

It doesn't matter where you got married if you want an annulment/divorce.   It matters where you are living when you decide to split up.   That is the state whose laws apply.   Until this weekend, Josh and Anna were living in Maryland.   Which does not have an annulment statute and it can only be granted in certain circumstances.   Fraud is only impotence, not finding out your husband was molesting his sisters.    A divorce is not all that easy either (the state was founded by Catholics and the legislature has never forgotten that).   

 

I do wonder if the license was issued in Arkansas and the ceremony was in Florida about the legality of that.  Most licenses are only for the state/county in which they are issued.   And to have a ceremony you have to have a license.   Common law does not apply here because that would be just deciding to call yourselves married without a ceremony/piece of paper.   I would die laughing if it turns out they were living in sin this whole time because the marriage wasn't legal.

[autumnh]

I haven't seen this one posted yet: http://www.people.com/article/online-commenter-warned-josh-duggar-molestation

 

People is really singing a different tune now, aren't they?

 

It is amazing how you can go from PEOPLE Magazine America's moneymaker darling to horrible people who will make us even more money.

[Fuzzysox]

It doesn't matter where you got married if you want an annulment/divorce.   It matters where you are living when you decide to split up.   That is the state whose laws apply.   Until this weekend, Josh and Anna were living in Maryland.   Which does not have an annulment statute and it can only be granted in certain circumstances.   Fraud is only impotence, not finding out your husband was molesting his sisters.    A divorce is not all that easy either (the state was founded by Catholics and the legislature has never forgotten that).   

 

I do wonder if the license was issued in Arkansas and the ceremony was in Florida about the legality of that.  Most licenses are only for the state/county in which they are issued.   And to have a ceremony you have to have a license.   Common law does not apply here because that would be just deciding to call yourselves married without a ceremony/piece of paper.   I would die laughing if it turns out they were living in sin this whole time because the marriage wasn't legal.

That would be rich if they weren't legally married.

[GeeGolly]

""Counseling" is a very ambiguous word. A person could have a heart to heart talk with their grandmother and they would not be lying if they said they had received "counseling". Any idiot can hang a shingle outside their door or place an ad in the paper claiming to be a therapist. There is no regulatory body overseeing "therapists"."

Nope. Therapists must have at least a Master's degree and work under a licensed clinician or be licensed themselves. There are multiple various regulatory bodies overseeing therapists depending on the degree, Counselor, on the other hand can be ambiguous, but most, outside of religious organizations, have a Bachelor's degree.