Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[ChristmasCandy]

16 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

While I think most agree with you, jail was never a realistic possibility the first time. The second time he committed no crime and the third time he did commit a crime and is in jail.

If his parents did the correct thing and reported what he did to his sister's he could've done juice jail time.

[Salacious Kitty]

1 minute ago, GeeGolly said:

I believe Josh was sent away the first time from March to July 2003, so 5 months.

I stand corrected. I remembered March, but thought it was 90 days. 

[AstridM]

30 minutes ago, Salacious Kitty said:

Was it his choice? JB was connected with the church or the program, don't remember which (it's been almost 8 yet). I really think JB forced the issue regarding Jesus Jail. 

And I think FF was stuck, whether he liked it or not. He already knew how to breeze through a religious program. He grew up spitting bible verses and knew the platitudes. Piece of cake for him. 

That’s why I said “technically.” He was an adult and could have chosen otherwise, if he had wanted to.  He was just a coward who didn’t dare object to Boob’s demands.

[ChristmasCandy]

24 minutes ago, ChristmasCandy said:

If his parents did the correct thing and reported what he did to his sister's he could've done juice jail time.

Juvenile jail 

[madpsych78]

17 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

The thing is FF knows the rules do apply to him. He was sent away for 6 months the first time. Sent away for 3 - 6(?) the second time and sent away for 12 years the third time. One characteristic of Antisocial Personality Disorder is lack of self-control and impulsivity - like having contraband in prison - rules be damned.

He knows the rules apply to him, but that "third" time being sent away is really his first time in federal prison. Different set of rules than Jesus Jail.

[GeeGolly]

Just now, madpsych78 said:

He knows the rules apply to him, but that "third" time being sent away is really his first time in federal prison. Different set of rules than Jesus Jail.

Absolutely! And his time in Jesus Jail wasn't for a crime, it was for an indiscretion.

Criminals are always betting on not getting caught. Recidivism rates vary depending on a lot of factors, but the chances of committing more crimes is pretty high.  

Unfortunately Josh is not all that unusual. He's a criminal who commits crimes.

[Heathen]

It's not a matter of knowing whether the rules apply to him. It's that he never thought he'd get caught. Not even Smuggar would commit a crime or break a prison rule if he knew he'd get caught. Most criminals and rule-breakers have the same thought process, or lack thereof. 

I think Smuggar is likely to reoffend. 

[SMama]

Just now, Heathen said:

I think Smuggar is likely to reoffend. 

When he does and is incarcerated, it may be the best gift for his siblings. Those who seek the spotlight will be asked about him and that is their choice. Those who want anonymity will be able to remain under the radar without FF as a constant reminder and distraction. 

[BetyBee]

Smuggar's sentence getting longer as he re-offends, is a gift to Anna too. I hope one of these days, she gets a clue and moves on with her life. No reason for her to be incarcerated at the warehome.

[SMama]

37 minutes ago, BetyBee said:

No reason for her to be incarcerated at the warehome.

Worse, rumor is she is back at the TTH. If true, it has to dawn on her that dormitory living is it for the next nine years. She’ll be 40-42 and still treated like a child.

[libgirl2]

Radar online is reporting he is in solitary. I don't know how credible they are though. 

https://radaronline.com/p/josh-duggar-solitary-confinement-phone-in-prison/

[lookeyloo]

They did show her in a space behind a curtain when I think Meredith was a baby and daddy was in Jesus Jail.  That is extremely private,doncha think.

[Stevie Nicks]

44 minutes ago, SMama said:

Worse, rumor is she is back at the TTH. If true, it has to dawn on her that dormitory living is it for the next nine years. She’ll be 40-42 and still treated like a child.

Unfortunately, I don't think that will ever dawn on her. 

[Minivanessa]

1 hour ago, libgirl2 said:

Radar online is reporting he is in solitary. I don't know how credible they are though. 

https://radaronline.com/p/josh-duggar-solitary-confinement-phone-in-prison/

They cite an article that's been published - in The Sun.  Speaking of credibility - or not. 🤣

The informant is described as a relative of another inmate. 

[Absolom]

The Sun's "source" is probably WoCB.  ;)

[Bethany]

8 minutes ago, Jeeves said:

The informant is described as a relative of another inmate. 

I can see this being real.  I'd imagine there being some interest on the part of family members of other inmates when someone notorious is also there.  

[Minivanessa]

11 minutes ago, Elizabeth Anne said:

I can see this being real.  I'd imagine there being some interest on the part of family members of other inmates when someone notorious is also there.  

I do too. Josh is no longer living among people who distrust the outside world and are unlikely to spill tea to the press - even if only out of cult loyalty or fear of consequences from JB. Now Josh is swimming with the sharks.

I doubt that anybody he's doing time with, gives a flying fart about the Duggars. If somebody's old lady can cash in - even for a small amount - by selling info to the tabs? It's on. Or heck, they could even tip off the tabs for free. For instance, if Josh has p*ssed off somebody on the inside, going to the tabs even for free is a way to settle scores. 

ETA: I've thought of another motive. The Sun story goes on from Josh's punishment, to discuss allegations of mistreatment and bad conditions inside that prison. It's possible somebody fed this story to the tabs to call attention to the prison conditions, betting correctly that FF's celebrity status would be the hook to get the story published.

Edited February 15, 2023 by Jeeves
Another thought.

[GeeGolly]

I think Miss Balls is the YT equivalent of the National Enquirer. They both are like blind pigs and occasionally find an acorn in spite of all their made up shit.

As @Absolomsaid, Miss Balls is likely the tabloid "source", much like how they quote snark posters as "sources".

Prisons are huge and schedules vary, Miss Balls and the tabloids would have to have at least a dozen inmates and/or guards watching Josh and sharing info before it made it to them. I just don't see that happening.

[merylinkid]

2 hours ago, SMama said:

Worse, rumor is she is back at the TTH. If true, it has to dawn on her that dormitory living is it for the next nine years. She’ll be 40-42 and still treated like a child.

As to how she would be treated if FF were home?  Being treated as less than and unable to make her own decisions is all she knows.

[GeeGolly]

Short of being with the FF, I think Anna is right where she wants to be. Jana has long given up her post of "overseer" of the TTH so Anna has willingly taken over.  This is a lifestyle she was raised in and she shows no indication she wants a change.

[SMama]

I just think the lack of her personal space will be difficult. Maybe I’m not getting it. We don’t even stay with relatives when visiting. We cherish our personal space, waking up and going to bed as we please. The little things in life. Anna must be wired differently. 

[lookeyloo]

9 minutes ago, SMama said:

I just think the lack of her personal space will be difficult. Maybe I’m not getting it. We don’t even stay with relatives when visiting. We cherish our personal space, waking up and going to bed as we please. The little things in life. Anna must be wired differently. 

I am guessing that some Of them who have grown up in large families are used to some "togetherness" and chaos.  I didn't. Don't have a sister. Didn't go to camp.  Didn't live in a college dorm. I like my space.  Best friend had 5 sisters and lived in a college dorm. She is used to "togetherness" and wants us to stay with her and spouse. I remind her I need my own space. 

[Meow Mix]

I doubt there will be any immediate change in Anna, but I really wonder how this will play out as the years wear on.  Ten years (or more if FF messes up enough) is a long time and some of her older kids will be leaving the nest by then.  I think in 5 or so years, we may start to see some changes happening, but how much remains to be seen.  We have to remember that Anna has no education and a ton of kids she can't support without help.

[floridamom]

I believe that Anna likes very much that she is not responsible for her own life. Let Jim Bob or any male relative take care of her; she is happy in her own make believe world. She has no real worries about money, a home to live in, food, a car to drive and clothes for herself and her children. Those bothersome things were always someone else's problem. Remember her "plea" to the judge that she  absolutely and completely relies on her husband for her support? That made me ill to read. 

[SMama]

2 minutes ago, floridamom said:

I believe that Anna likes very much that she is not responsible for her own life. Let Jim Bob or any male relative take care of her; she is happy in her own make believe world. She has no real worries about money, a home to live in, food, a car to drive and clothes for herself and her children. Those bothersome things were always someone else's problem. Remember her "plea" to the judge that she  absolutely and completely relies on her husband for her support? That made me ill to read. 

At the time the FF's search warrant was served the only vehicle under the couple's name was the junky RV. FF used that for "work" so every time Anna needed to drive she most likely had to ask for, borrow transportation. Maybe that is still the case.  That would get old awfully fast for most people, especially one as entitled as Anna. 

[Salacious Kitty]

22 minutes ago, SMama said:

At the time the FF's search warrant was served the only vehicle under the couple's name was the junky RV. FF used that for "work" so every time Anna needed to drive she most likely had to ask for, borrow transportation. Maybe that is still the case.  That would get old awfully fast for most people, especially one as entitled as Anna. 

I hadn't heard that about the cars. But I presume they were driving cars on the lot. I do wonder what Anna drives now. 

[crazy8s]

13 minutes ago, SMama said:

At the time the FF's search warrant was served the only vehicle under the couple's name was the junky RV. FF used that for "work" so every time Anna needed to drive she most likely had to ask for, borrow transportation. Maybe that is still the case.  That would get old awfully fast for most people, especially one as entitled as Anna. 

it is possible she has a vehicle registered under one of her llcs or maybe a leased vehicle.

my guess is situation equal to Jana, Jackson, Johanna.... JB has his pool of vehicles, all parked in the drive and they have access anytime. one is probably Anna's usual vehicle.

Jb and meech 2023 personal property taxes show an array of vehicles, the bus, several boats, 3 jet skis and many, many trailers. total is well over 30 items

[GeeGolly]

56 minutes ago, Salacious Kitty said:

I hadn't heard that about the cars. But I presume they were driving cars on the lot. I do wonder what Anna drives now. 

I agree. She was probably driving on a dealer plate.

[jschoolgirl]

Josh Duggar put in solitary confinement after getting caught with illegal cellphone in prison

[Heathen]

3 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

I agree. She was probably driving on a dealer plate.

I read that as "stealer plate." 🙂

Arkansas requires property tax on things like trailers and Jet-Skis and such? Keep buying, Jim Bob. You can't take your money with you. 

[Zella]

32 minutes ago, Heathen said:

Arkansas requires property tax on things like trailers and Jet-Skis and such?

It's on trailers. I don't know about jet skis. I don't believe they charge it for boats, but I've never owned one so not 100% sure. 

[Absolom]

I think AR does an assessment on boats of at least a certain size and up.  I had to list the step-dad's boat along with their vehicles.  

Edited February 16, 2023 by Absolom

[merylinkid]

7 hours ago, SMama said:

o every time Anna needed to drive she most likely had to ask for, borrow transportation. Maybe that is still the case.  That would get old awfully fast for most people, especially one as entitled as Anna. 

 

11 hours ago, lookeyloo said:

I am guessing that some Of them who have grown up in large families are used to some "togetherness" and chaos

These are the only things Anna knows.   When she lived with her dad, it was her and her sister in an rv because there were so many people in the house.  Sharing vehicles, and asking for permission from a headship is to her "how things are done."   She has literally no life experience to compare it to.   It doesn't get old, or annoying to her because she doesn't know any different.  She doesn't have friends or family who live any differently that she does.   EVERYONE she knows has a bajillion kids that go everywhere together as a herd, all controlled by someone.   Their cult is very insular so that no one has any experiences that can expose someone to something different and cause them to question The Rules and The Way Things Are Done.

The closest she came was when FF had the FRC job.   And even then it was what 3 or 4 kids crammed into a tiny DC area apartment?   And you know JB probably gave them the car they had and money that he dictated how it would be spent.  

[SMama]

36 minutes ago, merylinkid said:

 

These are the only things Anna knows.   When she lived with her dad, it was her and her sister in an rv because there were so many people in the house.  Sharing vehicles, and asking for permission from a headship is to her "how things are done."   She has literally no life experience to compare it to.   It doesn't get old, or annoying to her because she doesn't know any different.  She doesn't have friends or family who live any differently that she does.   EVERYONE she knows has a bajillion kids that go everywhere together as a herd, all controlled by someone.   Their cult is very insular so that no one has any experiences that can expose someone to something different and cause them to question The Rules and The Way Things Are Done.

The closest she came was when FF had the FRC job.   And even then it was what 3 or 4 kids crammed into a tiny DC area apartment?   And you know JB probably gave them the car they had and money that he dictated how it would be spent.  

Was she in an actual RV or that pop up they used as a guest room? 
 

Anna has a brother and two sisters who live significantly different than she does. Her sisters are not subjugated, have agency and not a litter of kids. 
 

FF & Anna never lived in DC, they somehow got off claiming they lived there. They at least rented a two story with basement home. Her parents made a big deal of all the space they had after living in the mold house. 

Edited February 16, 2023 by SMama

[Minivanessa]

Although she has a couple of siblings who have left the fundie life, Anna has more siblings who remain firmly entrenched. Of course we don't know how she thinks about her two siblings who are out in The World*, but Anna is firmly in the ATI/Fundie universe. Until it all came apart, IMO she was enjoying a high status in those circles thanks to marrying the Duggar crown prince, and she's doubled down on loyalty to her wonderful cracker-crumb-cleaning At-Least-I-Have-A-Husband™ ever since. Of course she had not only the moral support of her MIL and FIL behind her, she has the Duggars' financial resources behind her as well. She hasn't had to scrounge around to buy food and clothing for her kids or to pay for a place to live.

I doubt that she has to ask JB for the car keys every time she wants to drive a car. She's probably got a vehicle that one of JB's businesses owns, for her personal use, assuming she doesn't have a car titled in her own name. What with JB being in the car biz, I assume it's standard operating procedure for adults under his headship to be given the use of a car titled in one of JB's companies. ETA: If any/all of those cars have dealer plates, it wouldn't surprise me, lol.

*I've been re-reading parts of the book Lovingly Abused, by a woman raised in ATI who got out. There's a terrific chapter near the beginning of explanations and definitions that IMO are invaluable as a crash course in understanding the ATI world. Among other things, she notes that ATI isn't a church, and its members belong to different denominations with a lot of them being Baptists. She also says that ATI most closely aligns with the Independent Fundamentalist Baptists (IFB), which I'd picked up from all the discussions here, but it was nice to have that confirmed. Here's what she writes about "The World:"

Quote

 

The World: Anyone who thought differently from those leading ATI—even most churches—were referred to as “The World” - Defined by ATI as a noun: “The World would have us believe that women are equal to men. The World wants us to accept sodomy as a way of life. The World is convinced that education is the most important thing you can do for a child's future.” I don’t believe The World is inherently bad. Yes, everyone sins. The World does do terrible things. But The World pulled me out of misogynistic, manipulative, hateful captivity and taught me how to love with an open mind, finally separating faith from fascism.

                -- Heath, Heather Grace. Lovingly Abused (p. 32). Heather Grace Heath. Kindle Edition. 

 

Anna was deep into ATI before she married a Duggar. I've read that her father's prison ministry was (and I assume still is) supported by ATI and works closely with ATI. I'm sure she's mentally and psychologically well-defended against The World, and probably blames The World for all her husband's troubles. 

Edited February 16, 2023 by Jeeves

[GeeGolly]

Its sad because the show put the Duggars in a unique position to see that "The World" isn't actually all bad. Even beyond what the show exposed them to, they became very close to the 'heathen' TV crew. And of course raising kids, Fundy or not, with the internet, puts real life (good & bad) right at their fingertips.

So while Anna has seen more sides to the elephant, as @Jeeves pointed out, the practical creature comforts give her another reason beyond fear to stay entrenched in the Fundy womb.

[Heathen]

11 hours ago, merylinkid said:

The closest she came was when FF had the FRC job.   And even then it was what 3 or 4 kids crammed into a tiny DC area apartment?   And you know JB probably gave them the car they had and money that he dictated how it would be spent.  

They rented a house -- an actual house -- in Oxon Hill, MD. It was a decently sized house, especially for the three kids they had then. Marcus was born just before they moved to the DC area. 

Smuggar actually had a salary then, not just a Jim Bob handout. 

[ozziemom]

I would think Anna has a specific car assigned to her since she has so many kids that probably need to be in a car seat or booster. The boys all seem to drive trucks and we’ve seen a variety of SUV’s too. 

[Salacious Kitty]

I got an (unsolicited) article alert on my phone this morning that today is FF's appeal hearing in St. Louis. I guess we're on watch. 😀

Edited February 16, 2023 by Salacious Kitty

[Zella]

12 minutes ago, Salacious Kitty said:

I got an (unsolicited) article alert on my phone this morning that today is FF's appeal hearing in St. Louis. I guess we're on watch. 😀

AR local news is laying down on the job. Not had any push notifications on Josh, but they just keep telling me it's been raining today. I know. I can look out the window and tell. 😂

Question for our lawyers: would it come up today in his hearing if he is in fact in solitary confinement for breaking rules in prison? 

[merylinkid]

Today's hearing is most likely oral argument ONLY on the appeal.   It is just lawyers making legal arguments.   His attorneys will be making legal arguments about all the things the judge got wrong.   the prosecutor will be arguing "nope judge got it all right."   There is no evidence presented or witness testimony taken.    NOTHING but the grounds for appeal are mentioned.    

As for watch, we most likely will not get a ruling for a few months.    At the appellate level its all legalities.    The justices take it under advisement to deliberate and write their opinions (firmly convinced federal appellate judges get paid by the word) with all the legal citations support their position.   

In other words, this is the most boring part of the whole saga.

[louannems]

On 2/15/2023 at 5:28 AM, SMama said:

Worse, rumor is she is back at the TTH. If true, it has to dawn on her that dormitory living is it for the next nine years. She’ll be 40-42 and still treated like a child.

She’ll also be the lifelong live in maid. Serving all of the entitled Duggars who stop by for meals and free babysitting.

[quarks]

9 hours ago, Jeeves said:

ETA: I've thought of another motive. The Sun story goes on from Josh's punishment, to discuss allegations of mistreatment and bad conditions inside that prison. It's possible somebody fed this story to the tabs to call attention to the prison conditions, betting correctly that FF's celebrity status would be the hook to get the story published.

This strikes me as a very real possibility. Because I can see two ways of reading this story:

1. Josh really is incapable of following rules, isn't he? This does not bode well for when he's released.

2. Holy )(*(*)((^&^*, solitary confinement just for - allegedly - using a cell phone?  A cell phone allegedly provided by one of the prison guards? What's going on here?

I mean, I immediately went to the first way, because, hey, this is Josh, and my sympathies are non-existent, but I can see that people more concerned about prison reform - which presumably includes at least some of the prisoners - could focus on the second reading.

3 hours ago, floridamom said:

I believe that Anna likes very much that she is not responsible for her own life. Let Jim Bob or any male relative take care of her; she is happy in her own make believe world. She has no real worries about money, a home to live in, food, a car to drive and clothes for herself and her children. Those bothersome things were always someone else's problem. Remember her "plea" to the judge that she  absolutely and completely relies on her husband for her support? That made me ill to read. 

 

I doubt she's happy.

To start with, that home to live in is either a warehouse (if they are still there); a dormitory-style room that she is sharing with her daughters and younger sisters-in-law; or a spare room or two with the Spiveys and/or David Waller and co.  She's in her 30s, with seven kids. We've talked about how not great/weird that must be for Jana; it's equally not great/weird for Anna.

For a second thing, I think she is concerned about finances. Josh's legal fees were almost certainly in the six figures (and, with today's appeal procedures, continue to climb), and she and Josh appeared to be liquidating virtually all of their real estate assets after his arrest. They may not have any assets left, and Anna, alone of the Duggars/Duggarlings/Duggar adjacents, is virtually unemployable, thanks to the combination of personal notoriety, lack of any job skills or education, and lack of any work history.

Meanwhile, her siblings all appear to be doing well; one of her in-laws has just landed (however dubiously), on the New York Times bestselling list; and a number of her other in-laws and other Duggar adjacents are zipping around Europe or at least having various Galentine's Day events at home - which she isn't invited to.

17 minutes ago, Zella said:

Question for our lawyers: would it come up today in his hearing if he is in fact in solitary confinement for breaking rules in prison? 

A Reddit user at the hearing said that this did not come up. The attorneys were mostly focused on the cell phone issue and whether or not Josh had the ability to contact his attorney during that initial raid, and on whether Caleb Williams could have committed the crime.

No ruling was made.

[ginger90]

I believe the attorneys had 20 minutes each for their arguments.

1 hour ago, Zella said:

Question for our lawyers: would it come up today in his hearing if he is in fact in solitary confinement for breaking rules in prison? 

No a lawyer….. no, it wouldn’t come up.

[ChristmasCandy]

All his lawyers is trying to beat a dead horse back to life and throwing anything and everything up against the wall to see if hopefully something will stick to the wall.

[Stevie Nicks]

2 hours ago, ozziemom said:

I would think Anna has a specific car assigned to her since she has so many kids that probably need to be in a car seat or booster. The boys all seem to drive trucks and we’ve seen a variety of SUV’s too.

Is she allowed to go anywhere alone? 

[crazy8s]

2 hours ago, Zella said:

AR local news is laying down on the job. Not had any push notifications on Josh, but they just keep telling me it's been raining today. I know. I can look out the window and tell. 😂

reporter cc McCandless, or something like that, posted on reddit a few days ago that he was unable to go today because he working on a big murder trial and that was his employer's priority for him this week.

[Salacious Kitty]

7 minutes ago, crazy8s said:

reporter cc McCandless, or something like that, posted on reddit a few days ago that he was unable to go today because he working on a big murder trial and that was his employer's priority for him this week.

I was wondering about him since he's been covering the case up until now. 

[lascuba]

7 minutes ago, Stevie Nicks said:

Is she allowed to go anywhere alone? 

Just speculating, but I would assume yes, for the most part. If  she started making regular trips alone and JB/M noticed, questions might be asked, but I can't imagine anyone making an issue if she went to a doctor's appointment or something and didn't take anyone with her.

JB and Michelle are control freaks but having had sister moms for so long made them lazy. I really can't imagine them keeping tabs on an adult woman with 7 kids living under their roof.

[Zella]

1 hour ago, crazy8s said:

reporter cc McCandless, or something like that, posted on reddit a few days ago that he was unable to go today because he working on a big murder trial and that was his employer's priority for him this week.

Ah okay. I've not kept up with him, but I bet it was the Torres case, which did have a verdict today and has gotten lots of local coverage. 

My local news apps finally started blowing up about Josh's hearing this afternoon. LOL