Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[Salacious Kitty]

36 minutes ago, satrunrose said:

Also, wild speculation here, but the kind of crimes FF committed may have resulted in some official people asking some questions about how the Ms were being cared for (plus the speculation that it was an M who got loose under Jana's care). There may have been some concerns raised about the suitability of a warehouse in terms of fire code etc. 

I don't think safety factored into this. It's never been on their collective radar before. 

[satrunrose]

Oh, no, it's clearly not a concern for the Duggars! I meant that the legal attention on the family might have led to someone (code enforcement, maybe even social services) saying something about the suitability of having small children living in a warehouse. 

That being said, given the Anna was living in the girls dorm with 4(?) kids while FF was in Jesus jail, the "women can't live alone" theory has merit too. 

[GeeGolly]

If Anna is living at the TTH it could be that it just happened. She likely spends her days there anyway. I can see it getting late and the kids fall asleep here, there and everywhere at the TTH enough times, where it just made sense for her to move in.

[ginger90]

Josh Duggar defense says district court ‘violated Duggar’s right to present a complete defense’ in appeal brief

 

https://www.nwahomepage.com/josh-duggar-trial/josh-duggar-defense-says-district-court-violated-duggars-right-to-present-a-complete-defense-in-appeal-brief/

[sagittarius sue]

1 hour ago, ginger90 said:

Josh Duggar defense says district court ‘violated Duggar’s right to present a complete defense’ in appeal brief

 

https://www.nwahomepage.com/josh-duggar-trial/josh-duggar-defense-says-district-court-violated-duggars-right-to-present-a-complete-defense-in-appeal-brief/

Rinse and repeat.  It's the same crap over and over again.

[Salacious Kitty]

Yeah, I see that they're still trying to pin this on Caleb Williams. 

And Fortrell was not qualified? Pot, meet kettle. That young woman the defense trotted out was tragic. 

[quarks]

And I will just reiterate that Caleb Williams has not come across as the most reliable witness. I suspect that's why the prosecution declined to call him to the stand, even though he offered to testify. I doubt he would have been overly helpful to the defense, either; I don't think a jury would have believed him.

[quarks]

Reddit put up a link to the entire defense appeal here:

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7psd83xs8b1isus/12.27.2022 Duggar Reply Brief.pdf?dl=0

 

The first argument is that the defense should have been allowed to establish Caleb Williams as an alternative suspect, despite the very large issue that Caleb Williams was not at the car lot computer during the time of the crime and Josh was. The defense is counterarguing that Williams used the computer for things like eBay and printing labels, and could have accessed the computer remotely while travelling around Illinois, Arkansas and Missouri.

My own sense is that the defense has seized upon Caleb Williams as the only other person with a sex offender record who had any access to the computer whatsoever, thus pushing this theory. (And for the record I'm going to guess that Anna genuinely believes this, and is clinging to this for her own sanity.) The thing is, though, a) Caleb Williams was convicted of a very different sort of sex offense, and b) again, was not at the computer at the time of the crime. I obviously can't know for certain, but I think a jury would be more likely to conclude that the crime was committed by a person at the computer during the time of the crime, and not someone away from the computer during the time of the crime. Which is to say, I don't think that calling Williams as a witness would have changed the verdict.

The second argument is that the district court should not have allowed Josh's initial, extremely damning statements to federal officers to be presented at court. The defense is continuing to argue that Josh was in "custody" at time, adding that the car lot was in the middle of nowhere without a sidewalk - which conveniently ignores that this was a car lot. I don't think that anyone is arguing that Josh would have or could have walked several miles to find another phone, but I see no reason why he couldn't have used one of the cars on the lot to drive someplace to find a phone to call his attorney. He has multiple family members in the area. 

I will completely agree with the defense that admitting these statements into the court record probably helped convince the jury that Josh was guilty (I mean, those statements helped convince me that Josh was guilty), but I don't think that's on the prosecution. Josh had every right to keep his mouth shut. He didn't exercise that right.

The third argument is about the metadata, continuing to argue that the government witness was not qualified to testify about this. Again, I don't think this argument is really going anywhere, and even if it did - metadata is not that obscure; I think there's a solid chance that at least one jury member knew something of the technology here and was able to judge the credibility of the expert witness.

[sagittarius sue]

9 minutes ago, quarks said:

Reddit put up a link to the entire defense appeal here:

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7psd83xs8b1isus/12.27.2022 Duggar Reply Brief.pdf?dl=0

 

The first argument is that the defense should have been allowed to establish Caleb Williams as an alternative suspect, despite the very large issue that Caleb Williams was not at the car lot computer during the time of the crime and Josh was. The defense is counterarguing that Williams used the computer for things like eBay and printing labels, and could have accessed the computer remotely while travelling around Illinois, Arkansas and Missouri.

My own sense is that the defense has seized upon Caleb Williams as the only other person with a sex offender record who had any access to the computer whatsoever, thus pushing this theory. (And for the record I'm going to guess that Anna genuinely believes this, and is clinging to this for her own sanity.) The thing is, though, a) Caleb Williams was convicted of a very different sort of sex offense, and b) again, was not at the computer at the time of the crime. I obviously can't know for certain, but I think a jury would be more likely to conclude that the crime was committed by a person at the computer during the time of the crime, and not someone away from the computer during the time of the crime. Which is to say, I don't think that calling Williams as a witness would have changed the verdict.

The second argument is that the district court should not have allowed Josh's initial, extremely damning statements to federal officers to be presented at court. The defense is continuing to argue that Josh was in "custody" at time, adding that the car lot was in the middle of nowhere without a sidewalk - which conveniently ignores that this was a car lot. I don't think that anyone is arguing that Josh would have or could have walked several miles to find another phone, but I see no reason why he couldn't have used one of the cars on the lot to drive someplace to find a phone to call his attorney. He has multiple family members in the area. 

I will completely agree with the defense that admitting these statements into the court record probably helped convince the jury that Josh was guilty (I mean, those statements helped convince me that Josh was guilty), but I don't think that's on the prosecution. Josh had every right to keep his mouth shut. He didn't exercise that right.

The third argument is about the metadata, continuing to argue that the government witness was not qualified to testify about this. Again, I don't think this argument is really going anywhere, and even if it did - metadata is not that obscure; I think there's a solid chance that at least one jury member knew something of the technology here and was able to judge the credibility of the expert witness.

I don't think it was difficult for jury members to decide that the government witness destroyed the defense witness on this issue.

[Scarlett45]

We are almost to 2023- and Anna knows this year for the first time since 2009 she won’t be having a baby on an odd year. I wonder how she feels. I wonder if she will “hold onto” Madison note that her others as the baby. You’d think she’d be kept busy with 7 kids, but I can see her grieving. 

[StaceyNotStacie]

How many Duggar boys are left at home? If all of them are fine, that’s a decent sized space for Anna and her kids  

If there’s a spare bedroom, I hope Jana called dibs and told Anna to watch her own damn kids in big bedroom. 

[quarks]

19 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

We are almost to 2023- and Anna knows this year for the first time since 2009 she won’t be having a baby on an odd year. I wonder how she feels. I wonder if she will “hold onto” Madison note that her others as the baby. You’d think she’d be kept busy with 7 kids, but I can see her grieving. 

My guess? She's convinced herself that the crime was committed by Caleb Williams, and that the appeals court will immediately recognize this and free Josh within the next couple of months - allowing her to get pregnant again. This is obviously deeply unrealistic on any number of levels, and ignores that even the best case scenario won't really free Josh, but just order a second trial, which might or might not change the outcome.

But I don't think she's capable of believing anything else right now. And so, I don't think she's going to start grieving about not having a baby this year for at least a few more months.

 

[merylinkid]

2 hours ago, quarks said:

could have accessed the computer remotely while travelling around Illinois, Arkansas and Missouri.

there's the router again.   Honestly the defense should have called the router to the stand.

[ChristmasCandy]

2 hours ago, merylinkid said:

there's the router again.   Honestly the defense should have called the router to the stand.

They did call the router to the stand but the router pled the 5th.

[ginger90]

6 hours ago, quarks said:

My guess? She's convinced herself that the crime was committed by Caleb Williams, and that the appeals court will immediately recognize this and free Josh within the next couple of months

“There is more to the story.”

Edited December 28, 2022 by ginger90

[Salacious Kitty]

25 minutes ago, ginger90 said:

“There is more to the story.”

So much more that I left Instagram. 😂

[quarks]

2 hours ago, ginger90 said:

“There is more to the story.”

Yep.  One of the main foundations of my theory.

 

[Quilt Fairy]

On 12/28/2022 at 2:08 PM, ChristmasCandy said:

They did call the router to the stand but the router pled the 5th.

The router was unable to be extradited to the U.S.

[Zella]

7 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

The router was unable to be extradited to the U.S.

The router said, "I won't allow that! Are you going to allow that?!" 

[Bethany]

Have there been any updates on how Josh is coping in prison?  He doesn't strike me as the type who would lay low and just get along.  But he must be finding that he is now a very small fish in a big sea.

[GeeGolly]

23 minutes ago, Elizabeth Anne said:

Have there been any updates on how Josh is coping in prison?  He doesn't strike me as the type who would lay low and just get along.  But he must be finding that he is now a very small fish in a big sea.

Interesting. My take is perhaps with a year under his belt, maybe he's not fearing for his life and talks to more than just the prison chaplain. I think the FF knew full well he was a small, small, itty-bitty fish outside of the Fundy circle.

[Ohiopirate02]

25 minutes ago, Elizabeth Anne said:

Have there been any updates on how Josh is coping in prison?  He doesn't strike me as the type who would lay low and just get along.  But he must be finding that he is now a very small fish in a big sea.

AFAIK, the only two publications that have given a shit about the Sex Pest are The Sun and The Daily Mail, and both of them are a bit busy at the moment translating the Spanish copy of Prince Harry's upcoming memoir into English so they can report on the most salacious bits.  Or the prisoners/guards they bribed for those initial photos are no longer in the position to leak any new information.

[Gemma Violet]

It looks like Anna visited Josh with all seven kids before Christmas.  WOACB has a couple of photos of them leaving the facility.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ejhgKUg-UY

[beckie]

11 minutes ago, Gemma Violet said:

It looks like Anna visited Josh with all seven kids before Christmas.  WOACB has a couple of photos of them leaving the facility.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ejhgKUg-UY

Not gonna give KJ any clicks to see what she has, but would they all be allowed to visit? Especially the younger ones?

[Salacious Kitty]

8 minutes ago, beckie said:

Not gonna give KJ any clicks to see what she has, but would they all be allowed to visit? Especially the younger ones?

I thought there was an age limit for the kids. Am I wrong?

[Gemma Violet]

13 minutes ago, beckie said:

Not gonna give KJ any clicks to see what she has, but would they all be allowed to visit? Especially the younger ones?

According to WOABC, because of their ages, they're allowed in all together. 

Also, she said her source gave her these tidbits: Josh held the baby the entire time, he and Anna barely spoke, the older kids didn't interact with Josh, the two oldest seemed to be in charge of wrangling the younger ones, the kids were not allowed by Anna to get snacks out of the vending machines, Anna drove there and back without any other adults in the car, and Josh keeps to himself and doesn't mix much with other prisoners. 

Edited January 12, 2023 by Gemma Violet

[madpsych78]

45 minutes ago, Gemma Violet said:

According to WOABC, because of their ages, they're allowed in all together. 

Also, she said her source gave her these tidbits: Josh held the baby the entire time, he and Anna barely spoke, the older kids didn't interact with Josh, the two oldest seemed to be in charge of wrangling the younger ones, the kids were not allowed by Anna to get snacks out of the vending machines, Anna drove there and back without any other adults in the car, and Josh keeps to himself and doesn't mix much with other prisoners. 

And evidently there have been other visitors and Josh has been friendlier and more engaged with them than he has been with Anna.

Not surprised the oldest kids were not interested in interacting with Josh. Mack and Michael in particular I think are old enough to understand what is up. 

[merylinkid]

7 hours ago, madpsych78 said:

Not surprised the oldest kids were not interested in interacting with Josh. Mack and Michael in particular I think are old enough to understand what is up. 

I feel so bad for the kids.   The kids have a better grasp of reality than their mother.  Anna is sticking with Josh no matter what.  She is still convinced that he is going to come home and their marriage will be even stronger when he does.  So convinced she drags her kids to prison to see daddy.   The kids don't need to see him in that environment.  Facetime is good enough.  Especially because I doubt he interacted with them much when he was home ANYWAY.   But nope, Anna will drag the kids along to cling to her delusion that Josh is a great dad who WANTS to see his kids.   I mean jeez, Anna if you don't let them get anything from the vending machines how can he demonstrate how great a dad he is by sweeping up the crumbs?

[Scarlett45]

I have many criticisms of Anna, but I am not surprised or even upset she took her children to visit Josh near a holiday. Many people take children to see their incarcerated parents, and it's not like she is driving them there very other weekend. For the record I think Josh is a vile and awful human, I am just saying that particular action is not outside the realm of expected behavior. 

[GeeGolly]

I didn't watch the video... but if Miss Ball said Anna and Josh barely spoke and the older two were wrangling the young ones, who did Josh talk to, the one year old? Anna doesn't seem the type to sit anywhere quietly.

Anna thinks the FF is innocent, surely all their kids including the 13 and 11 year olds think his is too.

[libgirl2]

10 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

I didn't watch the video... but if Miss Ball said Anna and Josh barely spoke and the older two were wrangling the young ones, who did Josh talk to, the one year old? Anna doesn't seem the type to sit anywhere quietly.

Anna thinks the FF is innocent, surely all their kids including the 13 and 11 year olds think his is too.

I think what the kids think of him, depends on how much exposure they are getting to any kind of media. You know for a fact Anna and the others aren't telling them exactly what happened. 

[GeeGolly]

3 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

I think what the kids think of him, depends on how much exposure they are getting to any kind of media. You know for a fact Anna and the others aren't telling them exactly what happened. 

I hope no one is telling these kids exactly what happened. They are kids with a dad in jail. They have plenty of time to learn a cleaned up version of what he did, let them be kids for now.  I'm sure one day they will learn the details, details IMO, no one needs to hear. A cleaned up version is plenty bad enough.

[libgirl2]

3 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

I hope no one is telling these kids exactly what happened. They are kids with a dad in jail. They have plenty of time to learn a cleaned up version of what he did, let them be kids for now.  I'm sure one day they will learn the details, details IMO, no one needs to hear. A cleaned up version is plenty bad enough.

Maybe exactly isn't the right word, more like "daddy did something wrong and he is very sorry" etc..... Without details of course. It does make you wonder how it is being spun. I'm sure it is more something like someone did something bad and they blamed FF and he is innocent. 

[Absolom]

3 hours ago, merylinkid said:

Facetime is good enough.

Can he Facetime from prison?

[AstridM]

2 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

I hope no one is telling these kids exactly what happened. They are kids with a dad in jail. They have plenty of time to learn a cleaned up version of what he did, let them be kids for now.  I'm sure one day they will learn the details, details IMO, no one needs to hear. A cleaned up version is plenty bad enough.

ANNA needs to hear them. 

[Salacious Kitty]

7 minutes ago, AstridM said:

ANNA needs to hear them. 

Yup. She left the courtroom when the evidence was shown. 

[ginger90]

2 hours ago, Absolom said:

Can he Facetime from prison?

I don’t know about FaceTime but probably Skype. During Covid they made it free for visits. I would think with visiting in person being done now, there’s a fee again.

[babyhouseman]

As far as being told the whole truth about Josh. the children probably don't interact with that many people. Older family members must've been told to keep their mouths shut.

[Iguessnot]

10 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

I have many criticisms of Anna, but I am not surprised or even upset she took her children to visit Josh near a holiday. Many people take children to see their incarcerated parents, and it's not like she is driving them there very other weekend. For the record I think Josh is a vile and awful human, I am just saying that particular action is not outside the realm of expected behavior. 

That Anna made the holiday visit doesn't really concern me. What I found interesting, assuming it's true, is that Anna didn't keep sweet and she and Josh gladly ignored each other.  He spent time with the younger ones, and those that didn't want anything to do with him, were free to ignore Josh. Shows some progress on Anna's part.  

[ChristmasCandy]

17 minutes ago, Iguessnot said:

That Anna made the holiday visit doesn't really concern me. What I found interesting, assuming it's true, is that Anna didn't keep sweet and she and Josh gladly ignored each other.  He spent time with the younger ones, and those that didn't want anything to do with him, were free to ignore Josh. Shows some progress on Anna's part.  

Either that or she made googly eyes at FF all the time and ignored the kids because she did have a sister mom there to take care of the kids.

[SMama]

I don't believe for a second that Anna traveled from Arkansas to Texas alone with the seven M's.  Driving to the prison alone, yes.  The woman can't take care of one child without help. That and fundies travel in packs. 

[CalicoKitty]

8 minutes ago, SMama said:

I don't believe for a second that Anna traveled from Arkansas to Texas alone with the seven M's.  Driving to the prison alone, yes.  The woman can't take care of one child without help. That and fundies travel in packs. 

I would think she would need an adult accountability partner, even with her children in tow.  How would she handle having to call AAA if she needed help?

[GeeGolly]

Oh my goodness. Have the TV on in the background and a commercial for Allstate comes on with the Mayhem Guy. Toward the end if the commercial he says, Hey, check the router. 😮

Does the Allstate marketing team follow the Duggars?🧐🙃🤣

[merylinkid]

11 hours ago, Iguessnot said:

and she and Josh gladly ignored each other. 

It says Josh didn't interact with her much.   I can see Anna sitting there babbling away about how God put this rock in their path so their marriage can be stronger and did he read the books she sent, blah, blah, blah and him doing ANYTHING but listening to her.   

[beckie]

If Josh can't be near his children once he gets out, why is he allowed to be with them inside? Seems like the rules would be enforced while locked up as well. Plus, hearing he held the baby the entire time just gives me the creeps.

[libgirl2]

29 minutes ago, beckie said:

If Josh can't be near his children once he gets out, why is he allowed to be with them inside? Seems like the rules would be enforced while locked up as well. Plus, hearing he held the baby the entire time just gives me the creeps.

It gives me the creeps too but then it also calls into question the validity of this story. 

Edited January 13, 2023 by libgirl2

[Absolom]

The only tiny justification for Josh being able to be around his children while incarcerated is that the prison can guarantee he is at least minimally watched during the time.  The prison system's premise is that it is better for children to see the incarcerated parent than not so it errs on the side of allowing visitation.  Both the adult bringing the children and guards are there plus the other visitors so the odds of Josh being able to do anything untoward are theoretically low.  I'm not sure how observant the guards can be or how much Anna would do or not do to protect her children, but it isn't like leaving Josh home alone with the children for hours.  He gets to see them surrounded by other people a few hours a month.  

The judge could not issue orders that Josh could not see the children while in prison as he has no authority inside the prison as I understand it.  He could recommend a prison and impose a sentence, but once remanded Josh is under the prison rules until released when the probationary rules the judge could establish take effect.  

[mythoughtis]

Josh is allowed to see his children with supervision.
 

I don’t know what federal prison visiting rules entail.  I do know what my state’s visiting rules are.  Most locations require assigned table seating - the guard assigns the table and each table has a specific seat for the inmate.  The inmate is not usually allowed to go to the vending machine.  The inmate and visitors are supposed to focus on themselves and not interact or stare at other tables.  Appropriate clothing is required.  The children aren’t allowed to wander about the room.   Bathroom visits are monitored so that people do not interact. Sometimes the visitor can leave the room at the end of the visit on their own,  other locations require and escort.  You can’t bring stuff in with you- but I imagine a diaper bag/bottles are an exception once searched.  You are patted down before each visit.  
 

I feel confident that the guards know Josh’s  offenses and they carefully monitored him during the visit.  I can also understand  limited interaction between Josh and Anna with 7 children to keep eyes on.  
Being a visitor to a prison is an extremely uncomfortable thing. You aren’t the one who broke the law, but you end up feeling that way just due to the rules meant to keep everyone safe. My visits were to visit a young male adult nephew ( drug offense).   

Edited January 13, 2023 by mythoughtis

[SMama]

I’m going straight to hell for this but the thought of holier than thou, judgmental, prissy Anna getting a pat down makes me smile. 

[AstridM]

1 hour ago, beckie said:

If Josh can't be near his children once he gets out, why is he allowed to be with them inside? Seems like the rules would be enforced while locked up as well. Plus, hearing he held the baby the entire time just gives me the creeps.

Same. . . 

10 minutes ago, SMama said:

I’m going straight to hell for this but the thought of holier than thou, judgmental, prissy Anna getting a pat down makes me smile. 

There is no hell, so you’re good. 🙂