Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[Nysha]

On 2/2/2023 at 10:03 PM, GeeGolly said:

Personally I don't think the FF is a pedophile. IMO he's a sexual deviant whose unhealthy interest is sex has escalated. Either way he is a creep and a criminal, and behind bars is right where he should be.

All of the images he had were of children, to me that points pretty strongly to pedophilia. I do agree that he is a creep and criminal.

[Notabug]

21 hours ago, Salacious Kitty said:

But they don't know the truth. They know Anna's spin on it. They probably think Daddy will be released soon. Is false hope worse than the truth? 

I think they're going to find out the truth sooner if they go to the prison and visit their father rather than stay back at the Duggar compound where everyone is telling them the same fairytale.  If seeing Smuggar in a jumpsuit behind bars might cause them to question their mother's version of events, it is only to their benefit.

[Zella]

32 minutes ago, Nysha said:

All of the images he had were of children, to me that points pretty strongly to pedophilia. I do agree that he is a creep and criminal.

His victims in the family also got progressively younger and the acts got more brazen. I've always found that very telling. He may not be exclusively a pedophile in that he may experience attraction to people who are not children and I think he is likely attracted to violent sexual encounters regardless of age, but I think pedophile is not an unlikely descriptor based on what we know. 

[satrunrose]

 I wonder if anyone's ever done any research on how the way fundies are raised influences their abilities to distinguish between perfectly typical sexual behaviour; a little weird, but whatever floats your boat; and totally illegal and despicable.

It's always stunned me that people who can loose their crap over cleavage, same-sex hand holding, and pre-marital smooching are the same ones that can describe sexual assault between siblings as a "meh, it happens" thing. (I won't bother to go into the hypocrisy that those of us who participate in same-sex hand holding or support people who do, are debauched hell spawn, but their perv kids are...not...).

[crazycatlady58]

1 hour ago, satrunrose said:

 I wonder if anyone's ever done any research on how the way fundies are raised influences their abilities to distinguish between perfectly typical sexual behaviour; a little weird, but whatever floats your boat; and totally illegal and despicable.

It's always stunned me that people who can loose their crap over cleavage, same-sex hand holding, and pre-marital smooching are the same ones that can describe sexual assault between siblings as a "meh, it happens" thing. (I won't bother to go into the hypocrisy that those of us who participate in same-sex hand holding or support people who do, are debauched hell spawn, but their perv kids are...not...).

I know a lot of fundies who have no problem whatsoever know the difference between typical sexual behavior and assaulting their siblings are anyone else for that matter. 

[satrunrose]

Definitely not trying to make the argument that the poor FF didn't know any better. I am interested in the nature and nurture though. I feel like Josh had a lot of nasty (pedophelic?) predispositions that combined with a lot of highly contradictory attitudes about sexuality and both played some part in this mess.

[merylinkid]

I think the "Oh this happens in a lot of families" is a made up Duggar thing to avoid accountability for not taking it seriously and getting Josh REAL help not their insular church punishment.  Or having a buddy of JB's "talk" to him.   

Josh probably did have these tendencies.   but the failure of his PARENTS to take it seriously and get him some real help from someone who might have got through to him that ACTING on the impulses was wrong is what led to this.  Instead Josh's parents made him do some manual labor for a bit, then still held him up at the Golden Child, heir to the Fundie Throne.   What message does that send to someone?   Oh hey, do what you want because you are special and it will always be covered up in the name of keeping you special.   Until it got to someone that JB couldn't control -- the Feds.

[SMama]

7 minutes ago, merylinkid said:

Until it got to someone that JB couldn't control -- the Feds.

Do you think the outcome would have been different if it was a State case? I think the lack of control bothered JB more than his son getting caught. Kind of kidding. 

[merylinkid]

1 hour ago, SMama said:

Do you think the outcome would have been different if it was a State case? I think the lack of control bothered JB more than his son getting caught. Kind of kidding. 

I think the facade of the perfect family who "just did things a little different" being shown as a fraud bothered him more than FF getting caught.   

State is an I dunno.   The judge would have been more local and probable knew JB.   But, JB is not nearly as powerful as he thinks he is.   Nor as universally loved (or even liked) as he thinks he is.   So it is possible that a state judge would have looked at JB and said "who are you again?"  

[Stevie Nicks]

I've always wondered if FF would have been in a "normal" family (non fundy, non TV, not with a million siblings and more parental attention with caring involved parents) if he would still have been what he became. 

[libgirl2]

17 minutes ago, Stevie Nicks said:

I've always wondered if FF would have been in a "normal" family (non fundy, non TV, not with a million siblings and more parental attention with caring involved parents) if he would still have been what he became. 

It is hard to say, the whole nature vs. nurture argument. Maybe he would have regardless of his upbringing. Somehow I think it is a great possibility he would have anyway. 

[Canadian Girl]

On 1/27/2023 at 8:28 PM, Scarlett45 said:

Josh is a vile awful human. I can believe JB doesn’t like him much (he’s been nothing but an embarrassment for years), but that doesn’t mean he doesn’t love him or won’t take care of him. Many parents try until the very end, even if their kid is a POS.

I could see many parents (not just a JB type) paying the lawyers even if they believed their child was guilty. Lionel Dahmer stood by Jeffrey even though he never denied his guilt or claimed he was innocent. 

My father's brother killed his wife. His defence lawyers contacted EVERYONE in our family they could get ahold of to ask for support, including money, cooperation, letters of support, etc. Every single member of our family declined. 

[madpsych78]

On 2/8/2023 at 10:48 AM, libgirl2 said:

It is hard to say, the whole nature vs. nurture argument. Maybe he would have regardless of his upbringing. Somehow I think it is a great possibility he would have anyway. 

My gut is saying that Josh would have probably had those same curiosities about younger girls. The difference is that in a "normal" family his parents would have sought help with a licensed mental health professional rather than within their cult. The cult essentially positively reinforced Josh's behavior.

[GeeGolly]

The way I see it, Josh molesting his sisters were crimes of opportunities and not a thing for young girls. His next step was hypersexuality with Anna and then reaching out to other adults for even more sex, up until he got caught. Throughout all this Josh was frequently visiting porn sites. After Ashley Madison it seems it was all porn up until he got caught committing his last crime. He likely needed to view more and more deviant sex to meet his sexual 'needs'.

I also think Josh was born fucked up. While he certainly received worse professional treatment and consequences after the molestations than some, I'm going to guess (through my experience as a therapist) he received better 'professional' treatment and punishment than most. I think his family environment may have steered Josh's deviancy for pleasure toward sex, but I think if he was born into another family he may have ended up a serial killer. Under the best family circumstances I still think he would have been in and out of trouble and in and out of treatment for his entire life.

While nurture has a huge impact, nature does too. Molesters, serial killers and the like usually have very typical, law abiding siblings, so it seems logical genetics is at play, much like (though very, very different) having only one kid with diabetes. 

[libgirl2]

6 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

The way I see it, Josh molesting his sisters were crimes of opportunities and not a thing for young girls. His next step was hypersexuality with Anna and then reaching out to other adults for even more sex, up until he got caught. Throughout all this Josh was frequently visiting porn sites. After Ashley Madison it seems it was all porn up until he got caught committing his last crime. He likely needed to view more and more deviant sex to meet his sexual 'needs'.

I also think Josh was born fucked up. While he certainly received worse professional treatment and consequences after the molestations than some, I'm going to guess (through my experience as a therapist) he received better 'professional' treatment and punishment than most. I think his family environment may have steered Josh's deviancy for pleasure toward sex, but I think if he was born into another family he may have ended up a serial killer. Under the best family circumstances I still think he would have been in and out of trouble and in and out of treatment for his entire life.

While nurture has a huge impact, nature does too. Molesters, serial killers and the like usually have very typical, law abiding siblings, so it seems logical genetics is at play, much like (though very, very different) having only one kid with diabetes. 

Yes, I watch ID and many times you will see a person who is on there talking about their sibling who is a criminal while they have led a fairly ordinary life themselves. 

[SMama]

15 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

The way I see it, Josh molesting his sisters were crimes of opportunities and not a thing for young girls. His next step was hypersexuality with Anna and then reaching out to other adults for even more sex, up until he got caught. Throughout all this Josh was frequently visiting porn sites. After Ashley Madison it seems it was all porn up until he got caught committing his last crime. He likely needed to view more and more deviant sex to meet his sexual 'needs'.

I also think Josh was born fucked up. While he certainly received worse professional treatment and consequences after the molestations than some, I'm going to guess (through my experience as a therapist) he received better 'professional' treatment and punishment than most. I think his family environment may have steered Josh's deviancy for pleasure toward sex, but I think if he was born into another family he may have ended up a serial killer. Under the best family circumstances I still think he would have been in and out of trouble and in and out of treatment for his entire life.

While nurture has a huge impact, nature does too. Molesters, serial killers and the like usually have very typical, law abiding siblings, so it seems logical genetics is at play, much like (though very, very different) having only one kid with diabetes. 

This does not bode well for the FF post incarceration.

[GeeGolly]

1 hour ago, SMama said:

This does not bode well for the FF post incarceration.

Totally agree. He seemed to make it 5ish years in between AM and the CSA without getting caught, but when he comes out of prison he will have a lot more eyes on him due to the conditions of his release. I don't think he'll make it a year without getting caught accessing legal porn or some other more deviant porn. Or maybe doing something worse.

Anna doesn't get it, her husband was a sick and disgusting person when he went into jail and he'll be a sick and disgusting person when he gets out.

[Gemma Violet]

Anna will not be happy if this is true:

WOACB says she's heard from more than one source that Josh was put in a special housing unit a week and a half ago because he was caught with a phone.  He could face up to an additional year in prison and also lose any earned time off for good behavior.  Also, not good news for his appeal. 

 

Edited February 11, 2023 by Gemma Violet

[Absolom]

Several of us predicted he wouldn't be able to go too long without trying to get around the system one way or another.  If it's true, he'll have different rules for visiting, too.

[Gemma Violet]

If this turns out to be true, either he got the phone from another inmate or someone smuggled it to him during a visit.  I'm assuming if they find out who did it, they will press charges.  

[Scarlett45]

I think Josh is a sadist and a creep, a vile awful human being. I don’t think if he had been born into a “typical” family anyone would’ve gotten him mental health treatment, I think he would’ve been “that guy” who wouldn’t take “no” for an answer and had a “reputation” for expecting favors after a date, and putting drugs in women’s drinks without their consent and proclaiming it was a “misunderstanding”. If his parents caught onto anything there would’ve been 1. Blaming it on “fast girls”, 2. Apologies and payouts when the count started adding up, 3. Pretending they didn’t know anything once he was adult and sticking their heads in the sand.

I do think his siblings wouldn’t have been surprised in the least although none of them would’ve been his victims, but they would’ve known and shaken their head when it became public what he had done.

[Gemma Violet]

WOACB gave some additional info in her comment section.  She said that Josh was found by guards on his phone in his cell out in the open--not trying to hide it.  She said it's more likely that a guard sold the phone to Josh rather than someone smuggled it.  In the Special Housing Unit, Josh will now be locked up 23 hours a day, have two showers per week, no visitors, and one phone call a month.  It could be weeks or months before he is moved back to the general population.

 

Edited February 11, 2023 by Gemma Violet

[Salacious Kitty]

If true, this may wake Anna up. Unless she says the guard framed him. 🙄

[merylinkid]

Well we know he wasn't calling Anna so what was he doing with the phone?  And of course he would be blatant about it.  He still hasn't figured out the Rules apply to him too.

 

I have never believed he followed all the rules of his pretrial release.  Just no one reported any violations.

[Bethany]

7 minutes ago, merylinkid said:

I have never believed he followed all the rules of his pretrial release.  Just no one reported any violations.

There was no way in this world that the poor woman Mrs Reber? where he was housed would ever have reported any wrong doing on his part.  No way.  I remember thinking at the time that the judge either didn't understand how things work in the Duggar universe or else didn't particularly care.  Thankfully the judge Josh got for his actual trial wasn't about to let Jim Bob Duggar rule the roost.

[quarks]

I think Josh's appeal is based just on the legal arguments made by his attorneys, not by his behavior in prison. 

But if he does win his appeal, his case will just be sent back to the lower courts to be retried - or dismissed if prosecutors decide it's not worth going through the whole trial again. If he is retried, the prosecutors and the judge might take questionable prison behavior into account.

[js9548]

11 hours ago, merylinkid said:

Well we know he wasn't calling Anna so what was he doing with the phone?  And of course he would be blatant about it.  He still hasn't figured out the Rules apply to him too.

 

I doubt he would be using it to call anyone. Possibly for the internet use?

[ginger90]

There have been many instances of inmates live streaming, and posting selfies on their Facebook accounts, and getting caught.
 

 

Edited February 11, 2023 by ginger90

[merylinkid]

1 hour ago, js9548 said:

I doubt he would be using it to call anyone. Possibly for the internet use?

That;s what I am afraid of consdiering what he is in for.

[ginger90]

I’d be interested in knowing what is found on the cell phone, if this is indeed true.

[SMama]

If this is true the FF won’t make it long after he is released. He’s just going to violate parole or reoffend.

Edited February 11, 2023 by SMama

[quarks]

Even if it's not true, I think he will reoffend. 

[merylinkid]

If he keeps breaking the law in jail, he might not get out.   He might just keep getting new sentences added on.   I really don't think ANY of the Duggars are good at long term thinking and actions/consequences.

[libgirl2]

I don't know if I trust the source, but it is believable. 

[Albanyguy]

4 hours ago, libgirl2 said:

I don't know if I trust the source, but it is believable. 

I usually take WOACB with a grain of salt the size of Mount Everest, but I'm willing to believe this one. The details are plausible and it certainly fits everything we know abour Josh's character.

[ginger90]

Who gave the cell to FF? Hmmmm, someone else will be charged for that too.

 

[dariafan]

He still hasn’t learned the rules do actually apply to him 

[Gemma Violet]

4 hours ago, ginger90 said:

Who gave the cell to FF? Hmmmm, someone else will be charged for that too.

 

Apparently, it's a common thing in prisons for unscrupulous guards to sell phones to prisoners for sky high prices.  If this is what happened, Josh must have had some extra chump change in his account to be able to afford it.

Since prisoners are presumably searched after visitors leave, it's unlikely that a visitor was able to smuggle it to him.  (Unless a guard was bribed to skip the post-visitation search.)

[Scarlett45]

43 minutes ago, Gemma Violet said:

Apparently, it's a common thing in prisons for unscrupulous guards to sell phones to prisoners for sky high prices.  If this is what happened, Josh must have had some extra chump change in his account to be able to afford it.

Since prisoners are presumably searched after visitors leave, it's unlikely that a visitor was able to smuggle it to him.  (Unless a guard was bribed to skip the post-visitation search.)

I can imagine a phone is super valuable in prison- more valuable than weapons or drugs. I’m not surprised if this is true at all. 

[beckie]

Is it possible Anna brought it and he convinced her to do it somehow? Phone calls to/from jail are pretty expensive.

[GeeGolly]

I want the story to be true, but I just don't see how Miss Balls could have so many eyes and ears on the FF all the time, whether her "source" is an inmate or guard. 

 

[Natalie68]

On 2/10/2023 at 6:06 PM, Gemma Violet said:

WOACB gave some additional info in her comment section.  She said that Josh was found by guards on his phone in his cell out in the open--not trying to hide it.  She said it's more likely that a guard sold the phone to Josh rather than someone smuggled it.  In the Special Housing Unit, Josh will now be locked up 23 hours a day, have two showers per week, no visitors, and one phone call a month.  It could be weeks or months before he is moved back to the general population.

 

I couldn't decide whether to laugh or clap!

[ChristmasCandy]

All of us have to remember that FF is the fundie crown 👑 prince and the rules don't apply to him.

[GeeGolly]

1 hour ago, ChristmasCandy said:

All of us have to remember that FF is the fundie crown 👑 prince and the rules don't apply to him.

The thing is FF knows the rules do apply to him. He was sent away for 6 months the first time. Sent away for 3 - 6(?) the second time and sent away for 12 years the third time. One characteristic of Antisocial Personality Disorder is lack of self-control and impulsivity - like having contraband in prison - rules be damned.

[ChristmasCandy]

5 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

The thing is FF knows the rules do apply to him. He was sent away for 6 months the first time. Sent away for 3 - 6(?) the second time and sent away for 12 years the third time. One characteristic of Antisocial Personality Disorder is lack of self-control and impulsivity - like having contraband in prison - rules be damned.

Sent away where? the first time was construction second time was Jesus Jail and the third time was where he should of been in the first place real jail.

[Salacious Kitty]

3 minutes ago, ChristmasCandy said:

Sent away where? the first time was construction second time was Jesus Jail and the third time was where he should of been in the first place real jail.

Right. I believe the construction place was 3 months. Six months in Jesus Jail. Now 12 years, if not more (presuming the cell phone story is true).

[GeeGolly]

5 minutes ago, ChristmasCandy said:

Sent away where? the first time was construction second time was Jesus Jail and the third time was where he should of been in the first place real jail.

While I think most agree with you, jail was never a realistic possibility the first time. The second time he committed no crime and the third time he did commit a crime and is in jail.

[AstridM]

1 minute ago, Salacious Kitty said:

Right. I believe the construction place was 3 months. Six months in Jesus Jail. Now 12 years, if not more (presuming the cell phone story is true).

Jesus jail was technically his own choice. He wasn’t mandated to be there and was free to leave at any time.

[Salacious Kitty]

2 minutes ago, AstridM said:

Jesus jail was technically his own choice. He wasn’t mandated to be there and was free to leave at any time.

Was it his choice? JB was connected with the church or the program, don't remember which (it's been almost 8 yet). I really think JB forced the issue regarding Jesus Jail. 

And I think FF was stuck, whether he liked it or not. He already knew how to breeze through a religious program. He grew up spitting bible verses and knew the platitudes. Piece of cake for him. 

[GeeGolly]

I believe Josh was sent away the first time from March to July 2003, so 5 months.