Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[Salacious Kitty]

😹

[Jeeves]

1 hour ago, Cattoy said:

I can honestly believe Duggar is pissing off the other inmates. I can also honestly believe an inmate(s) feeding the transgender story in the hopes of embarrassing him, or even hoping his money train would dry up if his family believed it.

Yep. I think this is quite possible. I can't get behind all the embellishments in the WOACB tale, but we know FF has had his release date moved back which means he got in trouble. After the Sun (and for all I know other tabloids) ran with the story about the phone, there was no denial from the Duggars. I think that if that story was really off base, the Duggs (maybe via Josh's lawyers) would have disputed it. Their silence leads me to believe the basic story (busted either possessing or using a mobile phone).

[SMama]

How do relatives find out about an inmate’s infractions? FF is an adult so I doubt mommy, daddy, and wife get notified. 

[Salacious Kitty]

8 minutes ago, SMama said:

How do relatives find out about an inmate’s infractions? FF is an adult so I doubt mommy, daddy, and wife get notified. 

I suppose it would have to come in written form from FF himself. But he's a notorious liarface, so lord only knows what he'd tell them vs. what actually happened. 

Edited March 22, 2023 by Salacious Kitty

[Future Cat Lady]

How would an inmate be able to contact Crystal Ball Lady? How would they even know about her? I don’t see an inmate wasting their phone calls on her, even on a contraband phone. I think that an employee would make more sense as an informant, not that I think she actually has one.
 

To be honest, I don’t think anyone at the prison gives  a shit about the Duggars. Most of them probably don’t know who they are.

[Salacious Kitty]

Just now, Future Cat Lady said:

How would an inmate be able to contact Crystal Ball Lady? How would they even know about her? I don’t see an inmate wasting their phone calls on her, even on a contraband phone. I think that an employee would make more sense as an informant, not that I think she actually has one.
 

To be honest, I don’t think anyone at the prison gives  a shit about the Duggars. Most of them probably don’t know who they are.

She's claiming that her informants are loved ones of inmates. 

[Cattoy]

9 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

Considering your name, you best watch out. 😸🙀😼🤣

😲 Uh.... well .... I know someone on the Witches Council Parole Board ...

[mythoughtis]

Doesn’t solitary housing mean solitary … as in one inmate to a cell?  I can see a transgender inmate being in solitary for their protection.  So both of them were in the unit at the same time.   In separate cells.  Not a big deal 

[Absolom]

The articles saying Josh is in solitary are conflating solitary and being in the disciplinary segregated housing.  Disciplinary confinement is no longer always sole occupancy.  The SHU is mainly two and three person cells.

[Salacious Kitty]

3 hours ago, mythoughtis said:

Doesn’t solitary housing mean solitary … as in one inmate to a cell?  I can see a transgender inmate being in solitary for their protection.  So both of them were in the unit at the same time.   In separate cells.  Not a big deal 

The story is FF was seen with the trans inmate BEFORE he went into the SHU. 

[Natalie68]

On 3/20/2023 at 4:17 PM, crazycatlady58 said:

I don't know about the rest but I doubt very much he is interested in a transgender women unless he feels he can abuse her. I would think he would be repulsed by her.

I totally believe it!  How many fundi bible beating men have gotten caught with a 'wide stance' or whatnot?  Seems like daily we get some news about a far right religious person having dalliances with with someone of the same sex, child or trans woman.

[Ohiopirate02]

Josh would not be the first nor the last straight person who found themselves in a same-sex relationship or hooking up with a transgender inmate while incarcerated.  This honestly doesn't even rate as news for me.  

[libgirl2]

1 hour ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Josh would not be the first nor the last straight person who found themselves in a same-sex relationship or hooking up with a transgender inmate while incarcerated.  This honestly doesn't even rate as news for me.  

Normally, it might not, but this is a Duggar (Holier than thou). 

[Ohiopirate02]

7 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

Normally, it might not, but this is a Duggar (Holier than thou). 

Well yes, a Duggar male needs a helpmeet.  If it can't be Anna, a fellow trans inmate is fine. (insert Ina Garten voice here).

[greenturtle36]

Last night, I found an old FB post of mine from when Joshie had been released from jail to the Rebers.  

And I said it was laughable, because friends of Jim Bob aren't going to report him for probation violations, or even watch him very closely.

I said that he's "probably" going to access the internet anyway and they'll never tell on him.  

Well, if he found a way in PRISON to access the internet, knowing what the consequences would be, that's removed all doubt from my mind that he had access to surfing porn the entire time he was on house arrest.  

I mean friends of Jim Bob?  Give me a f'ing break.  That judge should have known better.

[Zella]

3 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Josh would not be the first nor the last straight person who found themselves in a same-sex relationship or hooking up with a transgender inmate while incarcerated.  This honestly doesn't even rate as news for me.  

I wouldn't actually be surprised if Josh had a relationship with a trans inmate. What strikes me as fictitious is the detail that the other inmates are concerned about this person's relationship with Josh. It's giving me "and then everyone clapped" vibes. I really don't think anyone in there collectively gives a flying fuck. 

[mynextmistake]

On 3/17/2023 at 4:50 PM, GeeGolly said:

The way I imagine what went down was each time Josh was caught/confessed JB&M thought it would be the last time and eventually it was the last time. It seems as if they increased the severity of FF's punishments and did more to secure the sisters' safety as time went on. Hindsight is 20/20, I'm sure they had no idea Josh was going to keep doing it.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. After the second time, they should have realized that they were in way over their heads and gotten help, either from a licensed counselor or the penal system. After a while "they had no idea he was going to keep doing it" is not an excuse for inaction. 

And eventually it was the last time? Last time for what? He may have stopped molesting his sisters, but he was convicted of possessing videos depicting graphic abuse of a toddler. It's not like he saw the light and went forth to sin no more. 

[Salacious Kitty]

1 hour ago, mynextmistake said:

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. After the second time, they should have realized that they were in way over their heads and gotten help, either from a licensed counselor or the penal system. After a while "they had no idea he was going to keep doing it" is not an excuse for inaction. 

And eventually it was the last time? Last time for what? He may have stopped molesting his sisters, but he was convicted of possessing videos depicting graphic abuse of a toddler. It's not like he saw the light and went forth to sin no more. 

JB would never seek outside help. In his mind, it would be an admission that his parenting methods had failed. Not to mention, Gothardites were told to keep everything " in house," so to speak. They were never going to a professional counselor or deal with the authorities. And look at how that turned out. They have a 35 year old pedophile saddled to them for the rest of their lives. 

Edited March 23, 2023 by Salacious Kitty

[GeeGolly]

1 hour ago, mynextmistake said:

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. After the second time, they should have realized that they were in way over their heads and gotten help, either from a licensed counselor or the penal system. After a while "they had no idea he was going to keep doing it" is not an excuse for inaction. 

And eventually it was the last time? Last time for what? He may have stopped molesting his sisters, but he was convicted of possessing videos depicting graphic abuse of a toddler. It's not like he saw the light and went forth to sin no more. 

I totally agree, that would be ideal, however the ideal response to situations like sibling abuse is unfortunately rare.

And yes, the last time the FF physically harmed his sisters. Josh's indiscretions and crimes after the fact happened when he was an adult living on his own.

I'm not in the, if everything was handled perfectly when Josh was a teen, he'd be an upstanding guy now, camp

[GeeGolly]

Most states have a tiered punishment system for DUIs. Maybe a fine for the first offense, a fine, a suspended license, a DUI driver's ed course for the second and then permanent loss of license. For each one of these punishments, some will never drive under the influence again and some will a couple more times and some will continue until they're dead or in jail. But no one, not even the person themselves, likely knows what category they fall into, after the first punishment or second one, or even the third, that why the first punishment isn't the most severe.

The same is true of situations like Josh. If JB&M called the police after the first molestation, which was described as an over the clothes feel, law enforcement would likely have turned the case over to DCF. DCF would have likely monitored the family for six months and suggested Josh receive therapy and educated JB&M on safeguards to avoid it happening again. The next consequence would be temporarily removing Josh from the home and mandating treatment. The next punishment would have likely been juvenile detention until he turned 18. Its unfortunately very likely the 5 offenses we know of would still have happened before Josh was permanently removed from the home.

I think JB&M are shitty parents. I think they could have handled the situation better. I just think its a bit unfair to lay total blame at their feet and unrealistic to think everything would have been fine if things were done differently.

[Stevie Nicks]

13 hours ago, Salacious Kitty said:

JB would never seek outside help. In his mind, it would be an admission that his parenting methods had failed. Not to mention, Gothardites were told to keep everything " in house," so to speak. They were never going to a professional counselor or deal with the authorities. And look at how that turned out. They have a 35 year old pedophile saddled to them for the rest of their lives. 

And FFs kids have to be saddled with a pedophile father. 

 

[merylinkid]

2 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

I think JB&M are shitty parents. I think they could have handled the situation better. I just think its a bit unfair to lay total blame at their feet and unrealistic to think everything would have been fine if things were done differently.

This sums it up perfectly.   Both can be true.   The parents could have handled it better and got some real help.   But it is also well within the realm of possibility that no matter what they did, we would still be here today with this exact same situation.   Josh is who he is. 

 But, Head Boob and Checked Out could DEFINITELY have done more for their own daughters.   Having a locking door (even one they controlled) was not enough.   The sleeping in their clothes thing clearly was not a solution since the first incident was OVER CLOTHES.   It's the victim blaming that definitely made this worse.   Those girls you know were told that they TEMPTED their brother.     Matched with the "it happens in most families" attitude from Gothard to cover his own sick behavior was NOT HEALTHY for the VICTIMS.    

[skatelady]

2 minutes ago, merylinkid said:

 But, Head Boob and Checked Out could DEFINITELY have done more for their own daughters.   Having a locking door (even one they controlled) was not enough.   The sleeping in their clothes thing clearly was not a solution since the first incident was OVER CLOTHES.   It's the victim blaming that definitely made this worse.   Those girls you know were told that they TEMPTED their brother.     Matched with the "it happens in most families" attitude from Gothard to cover his own sick behavior was NOT HEALTHY for the VICTIMS.    

We actually don't know that for sure; no one but FF & the victims know what really happened. I've long that there was way more to it than "over the clothes...."  I mean, he confessed? This is a guy who's a known liar as an ADULT. You think he confessed truthfully as a horny demented teen? I wouldn't be surprised if WAY more happened than what he supposedly confessed to... and the girls couldn't contradict him, because of course the whole thing was their fault anyway. 

We'll never know what really happened, nor could we know if his current predicament would have occurred if he had been "treated" appropriately. 

But what DO we know?? That this family had the balls to go on national television to brag about their perfect family. What colossal ego. No sympathy for FF's parents. None.

[GeeGolly]

33 minutes ago, skatelady said:

But what DO we know?? That this family had the balls to go on national television to brag about their perfect family. What colossal ego. No sympathy for FF's parents. None.

Yet so many didn't see this family that way. My (then) teenage daughter watched two of the early specials and saw how screwed up the family was.

Season 1 started in 2008. They were only fooling folks that lived like them or wanted to live like them.

[Jeeves]

42 minutes ago, skatelady said:

But what DO we know?? That this family had the balls to go on national television to brag about their perfect family. What colossal ego. No sympathy for FF's parents. None.

 

2 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

Yet so many didn't see this family that way. My (then) teenage daughter watched two of the early specials and saw how screwed up the family was.

Season 1 started in 2008. They were only fooling folks that lived like them or wanted to live like them.

I think they fooled casual viewers. Based on some comments I saw back in the day on FB, I think many people had the idea that all the kids were beautifully behaved and well disciplined and the household was a miracle of efficiency and organization. I doubt those people were watching the show very closely, if at all. 

OTOH, as you said, issues were apparent to people who were paying attention to what they were seeing. 

Of course, especially after Joshgate hit, the Duggars smarmily said, "Oh, we NEVER claimed to be perfect!" Yeah, just super godly and devout and utterly dedicated to protecting their children from all the evils. And doing SO much more about that than 99.9% of the rest of the parents in the world. 

[madpsych78]

56 minutes ago, skatelady said:

We actually don't know that for sure; no one but FF & the victims know what really happened. I've long that there was way more to it than "over the clothes...."  I mean, he confessed? This is a guy who's a known liar as an ADULT. You think he confessed truthfully as a horny demented teen? I wouldn't be surprised if WAY more happened than what he supposedly confessed to... and the girls couldn't contradict him, because of course the whole thing was their fault anyway. 

We'll never know what really happened, nor could we know if his current predicament would have occurred if he had been "treated" appropriately. 

But what DO we know?? That this family had the balls to go on national television to brag about their perfect family. What colossal ego. No sympathy for FF's parents. None.

Actually, I'd say it's not out of the realm of possibility that he was more likely to confess as a teen than as an adult. Josh was more likely to be impressionable by his parents' rules and teachings as a teen than he would be as an adult. In other words, he would have felt more obligated to confess to his parents as a teen than he would have as an adult. 

But I also wouldn't be surprised if there were additional secrets that he did not confess about at any time.

[babyhouseman]

On 3/22/2023 at 5:06 PM, Ohiopirate02 said:

Well yes, a Duggar male needs a helpmeet.  If it can't be Anna, a fellow trans inmate is fine. (insert Ina Garten voice here).

That's a reality show that shouldn't happen but sounds amusing. M kids, meet your new parent.

Edited March 23, 2023 by babyhouseman

[Ohiopirate02]

2 hours ago, babyhouseman said:

That's a reality show that shouldn't happen but sounds amusing. M kids, meet your new parent.

I don't think inmates are in the habit of introducing their prison spouse to the fam.  Or at least the straight ones.  It's more of a what happens in prison stays in prison kind of situation. Or when young ladies attend Smith and are LUGs. See also the old joke about the navy, one hundred men ship out, fifty couples return.

[Nysha]

8 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

I think JB&M are shitty parents. I think they could have handled the situation better. I just think its a bit unfair to lay total blame at their feet and unrealistic to think everything would have been fine if things were done differently.

I don't put the blame for Josh turning out to be a pedophile at their feet. But I do put the blame for their daughter's continued abuse by Josh at their feed. Given their insistence that their/Gothard's rules protected children and kept them sexually innocent and pure until adulthood, I find it insulting that they proclaimed this so pridefully while covering up the damage that had already been done to the girls. Had they taken Josh's behavior seriously the first time little five-year-old Joy may not have been molested and the girls may not have had to spend their nights locked in their bedroom.

Edited March 24, 2023 by Nysha

[Gemma Violet]

7 hours ago, skatelady said:

We actually don't know that for sure

There was testimony at the trial that indicated it was worse than what was first thought.  I can't remember the woman's name who testified, but she was a former friend of the duggars.

[Salacious Kitty]

10 minutes ago, Gemma Violet said:

There was testimony at the trial that indicated it was worse than what was first thought.  I can't remember the woman's name who testified, but she was a former friend of the duggars.

I think you're referring to Bobye Holt.

[Zella]

It also apparently went on longer than had been previously reported, per the trial. 

[BetyBee]

We were getting our information from JB and Meech, who are not known for being realistic and honest. We also heard from their coached, victim daughters. I can't imagine growing up the way those kids did, with those parents and that privileged brother. It must have been a nightmare. As they venture out into the real world, some of those kids must be starting to realize that Mama, Daddy and Bill Gothard did not have all the answers! I hope so anyway, for the sake of their offspring. 

[ChristmasCandy]

Breaking news from our favorite drunk WOACB claims her sources told her due to over crowding FF is now back in general population and broke up with his trans girlfriend.

[GeeGolly]

Who all is in this jail and what rules are they breaking? If the FF's infraction was up there as one of the worst why would he be let out of "the hole" early?

[zenme]

On 3/22/2023 at 2:21 PM, Ohiopirate02 said:

Josh would not be the first nor the last straight person who found themselves in a same-sex relationship or hooking up with a transgender inmate while incarcerated.  This honestly doesn't even rate as news for me.  

Plus, he is some kind of sex addict. I can also see him being “gay for the stay.”

[cmr2014]

7 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

Who all is in this jail and what rules are they breaking? If the FF's infraction was up there as one of the worst why would he be let out of "the hole" early?

It's my understanding that it was "overcrowding" which I find believable.

 

[GeeGolly]

6 minutes ago, cmr2014 said:

It's my understanding that it was "overcrowding" which I find believable.

 

I was thinking they would let the inmates with lower level infractions out first.

[cmr2014]

26 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

I was thinking they would let the inmates with lower level infractions out first.

Perhaps they did? 

He was in for quite a while, wasn't he? I was kind of surprised by that. I thought being put in the "hole" was an extremem sort of punishment for 1-2 days -- of course my knowledge of this comes from movies where the "hole" was an actual, literal, hole, so I'm just guessing.

Perhaps they have some sort of formula where in the case of overcrowding, everyone serves 80% of their time instead of  something over-complicated like serious offenses serve 100% of their time and lesser offenses get 60%.

[Salacious Kitty]

He supposedly spent 70ish days in the SHU out of a 75 day sentence, so they probably figured eh, close enough, and let him out. 

[Absolom]

They also apparently only release from the SHU a couple of days a week so it may have been only one or possibly two release days early.  

[mynextmistake]

On 3/22/2023 at 8:22 PM, GeeGolly said:

I totally agree, that would be ideal, however the ideal response to situations like sibling abuse is unfortunately rare.

And yes, the last time the FF physically harmed his sisters. Josh's indiscretions and crimes after the fact happened when he was an adult living on his own.

I'm not in the, if everything was handled perfectly when Josh was a teen, he'd be an upstanding guy now, camp

That’s not at all what I said. I don’t think he’s capable of being an upstanding guy; due to nature, nurture, or a combination of the two, he was always going to be an asshole. I do think a timely, appropriate response by JB and M, including referral to appropriate services, might have helped curb Josh’s sexually deviant impulses, and saved his later victims (especially 5 y.o. Joy) quite a bit of trauma. 

And I’ve noticed frequent references to this line of thinking. “Most families don’t handle this well. JB and Michelle did more than a lot of parents.” So what? Do they get a cookie or something? A shitty response isn’t less shitty just because someone else’s is more shitty. 

[GeeGolly]

43 minutes ago, mynextmistake said:

That’s not at all what I said. I don’t think he’s capable of being an upstanding guy; due to nature, nurture, or a combination of the two, he was always going to be an asshole. I do think a timely, appropriate response by JB and M, including referral to appropriate services, might have helped curb Josh’s sexually deviant impulses, and saved his later victims (especially 5 y.o. Joy) quite a bit of trauma. 

And I’ve noticed frequent references to this line of thinking. “Most families don’t handle this well. JB and Michelle did more than a lot of parents.” So what? Do they get a cookie or something? A shitty response isn’t less shitty just because someone else’s is more shitty. 

Of course there will always be worse responses when compared to an imaginary bar of a timely, appropriate response by JB&M. A response that would have happened sooner and therefore stopped the abuse sooner. That would be wonderful, but what is that scenario based on other than hopeful thinking?

In real life a less shitty response can make a world of difference. JB&M believe the abuse happened - many parents don't. JB&M addressed the situation - many parents don't. Studies of sexual assaults have shown that being believed is huge in avoiding long term trauma. So no, not a cookie reward for JB&M, but likely not a lifetime of anxiety and or depression for the Duggar daughters.

 

 

Edited March 31, 2023 by GeeGolly

[SMama]

2 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

Of course there will always be worse responses when compared to an imaginary bar of a timely, appropriate response by JB&M. A response that would have happened sooner and therefore stopped the abuse sooner. That would be wonderful, but what is that scenario based on other than hopeful thinking?

In real life a less shitty response can make a world of difference. JB&M believe the abuse happened - many parents don't. JB&M addressed the situation - many parents don't. Studies of sexual assaults have shown that being believed is huge in avoiding long term trauma. So no, not a cookie reward for JB&M, but likely not a lifetime of anxiety and or depression for the Duggar daughters.

 

 

JB and Michelle may believe the sexual assaults happened but they sure minimized the hell out of it. Over the clothes, barely a few seconds. We learned from the trial that it was more and it went on for years. 
 

We don’t know that their less shitty response didn’t result in a lifetime of depression and anxiety for his victims. Jinger certainly struggles with anxiety. Jessa is stubborn AF and will always maintain she is just fine. We know Jill wasn’t just fine, and was probably coerced to do the Megyn Kelly interview. 
 

JB&M’s less shitty response resulted in a lot of restrictions for the victims, locked in their dorm at night (it doesn’t matter the lock was inside, they lived in fear in their own home), sleeping fully clothed, covered arms and legs. The FF should have been the one suffering the consequences of his behavior. Tomato stake him to his mother and father 24/7, lock him up at night or make him sleep in his parents room on the floor, removal from the home. Instead, he was still treated as the anointed Prince, giving privileges his siblings didn’t enjoy, and skated on a very serious offense. We all know how well that ended. 

[GeeGolly]

1 hour ago, SMama said:

JB and Michelle may believe the sexual assaults happened but they sure minimized the hell out of it. Over the clothes, barely a few seconds. We learned from the trial that it was more and it went on for years. 
 

We don’t know that their less shitty response didn’t result in a lifetime of depression and anxiety for his victims. Jinger certainly struggles with anxiety. Jessa is stubborn AF and will always maintain she is just fine. We know Jill wasn’t just fine, and was probably coerced to do the Megyn Kelly interview. 
 

JB&M’s less shitty response resulted in a lot of restrictions for the victims, locked in their dorm at night (it doesn’t matter the lock was inside, they lived in fear in their own home), sleeping fully clothed, covered arms and legs. The FF should have been the one suffering the consequences of his behavior. Tomato stake him to his mother and father 24/7, lock him up at night or make him sleep in his parents room on the floor, removal from the home. Instead, he was still treated as the anointed Prince, giving privileges his siblings didn’t enjoy, and skated on a very serious offense. We all know how well that ended. 

Based on what I've seen on TV, SM and actual Duggar interviews, my observations differ from the majority of yours and that's okay with me. However I just want to reiterate I'm not a JB&M sympathizer nor am I awarding prizes for great parenting.

JB&M did not minimize the molestations when they happened. They minimized them during the Kelley interview. Jill being coerced to do the interview in based on her (normal) emotional response during the interview. Not one of the sisters have said the molestations resulted in long term trauma and that's not something I think is fair to assign them. They were not locked in their room at night. They were free to come and go as pleased which they often did as they said they were usually up passed midnight. And lastly, Josh, who JB&M never stopped loving, was dropped from his firstborn pedestal in a hot minute after the abuse happened.

[Zella]

I think Josh remained the favored son until Ashley Madison. 

[GeeGolly]

38 minutes ago, Zella said:

I think Josh remained the favored son until Ashley Madison. 

I thought so too. But I've seen a few clips of the show since then and it seems to me now, that Josh tried to make himself someone of importance all on his own, with little endorsement from anyone else. Well maybe Anna endorsed it, but not JB, M or the siblings so much.

And other than his wedding and Anna having a babies, he kind of was a background player. They show really centered around a litter of kids and four daughters coming of age. That didn't stop Josh from trying to insert himself though.

[Zella]

2 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

I thought so too. But I've seen a few clips of the show since then and it seems to me now, that Josh tried to make himself someone of importance all on his own, with little endorsement from anyone else. Well maybe Anna endorsed it, but not JB, M or the siblings so much.

And other than his wedding and Anna having a babies, he kind of was a background player. They show really centered around a litter of kids and four daughters coming of age. That didn't stop Josh from trying to insert himself though.

He may have been downplayed on the show, but I don't think that meant he still wasn't seen as the heir and the great white hope. 

[GeeGolly]

1 hour ago, Zella said:

He may have been downplayed on the show, but I don't think that meant he still wasn't seen as the heir and the great white hope. 

I think that ship had sailed. During the episode when Josh was leaving, JB was practically shitting his pants. JB knows how public facing jobs work and FRC was front and center. I believe he was worried about what would come out. Michelle on the other hand couldn't kick Josh's ass out the door quick enough - "leave and cleave, baby". So that scene alone has me thinking Josh was no longer the great white hope, but more of the elephant in the room. The elephant Michelle wanted gone and the elephant JB was afraid to release.

[SMama]

31 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

I think that ship had sailed. During the episode when Josh was leaving, JB was practically shitting his pants. JB knows how public facing jobs work and FRC was front and center. I believe he was worried about what would come out. Michelle on the other hand couldn't kick Josh's ass out the door quick enough - "leave and cleave, baby". So that scene alone has me thinking Josh was no longer the great white hope, but more of the elephant in the room. The elephant Michelle wanted gone and the elephant JB was afraid to release.

Did Michelle say leave and cleave in that episode? I thought she said that on the wedding episode, and was a blubbering mess on the FF leaving episode.