Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[Minivanessa]

16 minutes ago, Tuxcat said:

Can someone save me some time and explain how Caleb Williams (potential juror) is tied up with this case? I know he has his own legal issues. How does this connect to Josh?

He is a potential witness, not a potential juror. 

[emmawoodhouse]

15 minutes ago, Tuxcat said:

Can someone save me some time and explain how Caleb Williams (potential juror) is tied up with this case? I know he has his own legal issues. How does this connect to Josh?

I think the defense wants to tie Caleb to the car lot. However, IIRC, he was in Illinois at the time of the crimes. So I guess the prosecution has called him to state his alibi. 

[Zella]

Isn't he also related to one of the people who works there whom they've tried to insinuate could have downloaded the material? I recall reading that somewhere, but at this point, I'm having a hard time keeping track of everyone. 

[emmawoodhouse]

2 minutes ago, Zella said:

Isn't he also related to one of the people who works there whom they've tried to insinuate could have downloaded the material? I recall reading that somewhere, but at this point, I'm having a hard time keeping track of everyone. 

Yes, but that brother was in jail. I think the defense is casting a wide net in their "other guy did it" defense.

[Churchhoney]

24 minutes ago, Tuxcat said:

Can someone save me some time and explain how Caleb Williams (potential juror) is tied up with this case? I know he has his own legal issues. How does this connect to Josh?

Well, Joshua and Caleb Williams probably both have known at least some Duggars for a long time. They're the grandsons of IBLP star Pastor S. N. Davis, who was a frequent IBLP speaker and also created some IBLP-loved materials alleged to teach parents how to keep their kids under control, especially when it came to sex and other wild-teenager-type stuff. (Obviously didn't work too well in his own family, but hey....).

In addition to that, though, it's been said that Caleb Williams is a friend of Josh's, in particular.  That's how his connection to the Duggars was explained, back when people were speculating that he was hanging around the family because he was courting Jana. ... He's also been said to have lived at the TTH for a time.

So as Josh's friend, he might just have some knowledge of Josh's comings and goings and other behavior, I guess...Or he might be another one the defense hoped to pin the crimes on because he and Josh allegedly have hung out? 

Edited December 1, 2021 by Churchhoney

[Tuxcat]

6 minutes ago, Jeeves said:

He is a potential witness, not a potential juror. 

Sorry, mistyped! Will edit.

 

6 minutes ago, emmawoodhouse said:

I think the defense wants to tie Caleb to the car lot. However, IIRC, he was in Illinois at the time of the crimes. So I guess the prosecution has called him to state his alibi. 

Defense trying to say he used computer?

 

5 minutes ago, Zella said:

Isn't he also related to one of the people who works there whom they've tried to insinuate could have downloaded the material? I recall reading that somewhere, but at this point, I'm having a hard time keeping track of everyone. 

Interesting. thank you

[Zella]

2 minutes ago, emmawoodhouse said:

Yes, but that brother was in jail. I think the defense is casting a wide net in their "other guy did it" defense.

Maybe it's a two for one with him and he gives both siblings alibis. I still can't get over those lawyers blaming a guy who was in jail and who was their client. LOL 

Edited December 1, 2021 by Zella

[Tuxcat]

1 minute ago, Churchhoney said:

Well, Joshua and Caleb Williams probably both have known at least some Duggars for a long time. They're the grandsons of IBLP star Pastor S. N. Davis, who was a frequent IBLP speaker and also created a creator of IBLP-loved materials alleged to teach parents how to keep their kids under control, especially when it came to sex and other wild-teenager-type stuff. (Obviously didn't work too well in his own family, but hey....).

In addition to that, though, it's been said that Caleb Williams is a friend of Josh's, in particular.  That's how his connection to the Duggars was explained, back when people were speculating that he was hanging around the family because he was courting Jana. ... He's also been said to have lived at the TTH for a time.

So as Josh's friend, he might just have some knowledge of Josh's comings and goings and other behavior, I guess...

Ah thank you. 

[emmawoodhouse]

I think both brothers are on the potential witness list, based on the linked Reddit post.

Edited December 1, 2021 by emmawoodhouse

[cereality]

4 hours ago, emmawoodhouse said:

We also still haven't heard a out the ruling on allowing the molestations.

At this point the judge will just rule from the bench at the beginning of the trial - or in the pre trial conference that takes place 1-2 hrs before court begins - as part of other housekeeping matters. Or maybe he'll rule when the gov't tries to call a witness that will discuss the molestations though they don't normally wait to rule 2 seconds before someone is to testify and often you don't want the jury seated for that kind of ruling because who knows what they're thinking. Like they could cook it up in their heads - hmm that Josh molested others really matters here but the judge doesn't want us to consider it, I'm considering it; better to rule on these things without the jury there.

I'm a litigator but haven't followed this in months and the trial snuck up on me. So is the defense really - other people had access to the computer, so they must have downloaded CP? Because IIRC wasn't it A LOT of CP? This wouldn't have been downloaded by 1 person clicking on your computer once for 5 min - they would've had to access the dark web etc. Forensics are great these days. They know the exact day/time the download happens and even if the car lot office doesn't have cameras, you can place people in the office by showing the gps of their phone was located at the office (or not) at the time the downloads happened. Like if this is the only defense, that's weak. 

Why the heck did these people not take a plea?? Do we assume Joshy and Daddy still think they're invincible??

As for Jill being forced to testify - she'd be a prosecution witness that would testify to prior molestations and/or how her family handled those molestations and/or anything else they knew about Josh and CP. The government wouldn't FORCE her to testify - whereas if she was defense side, certainly JB and Michelle would be all over her re her "duty" to defend her brother/her family blah blah. Plus gov't prosecutors who deal with molestation etc. are pretty decent at dealing with victims. If she was a crying, hysterical mess who couldn't talk about this - they wouldn't ask her to testify at all -- lest they have a jury thinking they bullied a young woman into being re-traumatized here. My guess is that she's a relatively cogent, "together" witness who can tell her story and she WANTS to testify and thinks it'll be freeing for her in some way - like she now gets it wasn't her fault AND her family is effed up AND her parents didn't protect her and she wants everyone to know that; if that makes her further estranged from her family, I bet she has considered that and is ok with it.

[quarks]

46 minutes ago, Tuxcat said:

Can someone save me some time and explain how Caleb Williams (potential witness) is tied up with this case? I know he has his own legal issues. How does this connect to Josh?

According to an earlier defense motion, Caleb Williams went to the car lot at some point, accessed the computer, and used the computer to print things.  The defense claims that this means other people could have accessed the computer during the time of the alleged crime, although apparently Caleb Williams was not at the car lot during that period. Caleb Williams has a felony record.

Caleb Williams is also the brother of Joshua Williams (aka Witness 2), a former employee of the car lot who chatted extensively to federal investigators. Joshua Williams had a cell phone which, according to the defense, was one of three cell phones that federal investigators did not thoroughly investigate. In the September hearing regarding these cell phones, it turned out that Joshua Williams was a) in jail during the time of the alleged crime, which was something that the defense really should have known since b) it turns out that Josh's Arkansas attorneys, Travis Story and Gregory Payne, represented Joshua Williams during that case.

Joshua Williams has a felony record.

According to prosecutors, Josh Duggar has been telling family members and friends that the entire problem here is that he's been putting too much trust into former felons. 

 

[Tuxcat]

2 minutes ago, quarks said:

According to an earlier defense motion, Caleb Williams went to the car lot at some point, accessed the computer, and used the computer to print things.  The defense claims that this means other people could have accessed the computer during the time of the alleged crime, although apparently Caleb Williams was not at the car lot during that period. Caleb Williams has a felony record.

Caleb Williams is also the brother of Joshua Williams (aka Witness 2), a former employee of the car lot who chatted extensively to federal investigators. Joshua Williams had a cell phone which, according to the defense, was one of three cell phones that federal investigators did not thoroughly investigate. In the September hearing regarding these cell phones, it turned out that Joshua Williams was a) in jail during the time of the alleged crime, which was something that the defense really should have known since b) it turns out that Josh's Arkansas attorneys, Travis Story and Gregory Payne, represented Joshua Williams during that case.

Joshua Williams has a felony record.

According to prosecutors, Josh Duggar has been telling family members and friends that the entire problem here is that he's been putting too much trust into former felons. 

 

Who do the other two cell phones belong to?

And IIRC the investigators had the time of download fairly well pinpointed along with timestamps that put Josh at the computer/car lot. If Josh Williams was in jail and Caleb was in Illinois, is the argument that the material was downloaded prior to the pings and then just "accidentally accessed" by Josh at a later date? Or will the argument be that the ping itself was incorrect (I know initially investigators went to the wrong address apparently).

Apologies for my questions. I haven't been keeping up!

(Also I'm surprised that Josiah isn't listed as potential witness. I was sure he would be called given Lauren's recent instagram scrubbing)

[Quilt Fairy]

12 minutes ago, cereality said:

So is the defense really - other people had access to the computer, so they must have downloaded CP?

Why yes, yes it is.

12 minutes ago, cereality said:

Why the heck did these people not take a plea?? Do we assume Joshy and Daddy still think they're invincible??

That's the $64,000 question. 

[Zella]

12 minutes ago, quarks said:

According to prosecutors, Josh Duggar has been telling family members and friends that the entire problem here is that he's been putting too much trust into former felons. 

If Josh were more of a mastermind, he would have greeted the DHS raid with "has someone been hiring unreliable former felons?" rather than his subtle and not at all suspicious "has someone been downloading child pornography?" 

[quarks]

7 minutes ago, cereality said:

I'm a litigator but haven't followed this in months and the trial snuck up on me. So is the defense really - other people had access to the computer, so they must have downloaded CP? Because IIRC wasn't it A LOT of CP? This wouldn't have been downloaded by 1 person clicking on your computer once for 5 min - they would've had to access the dark web etc. Forensics are great these days. They know the exact day/time the download happens and even if the car lot office doesn't have cameras, you can place people in the office by showing the gps of their phone was located at the office (or not) at the time the downloads happened. Like if this is the only defense, that's weak. 

Why the heck did these people not take a plea?? Do we assume Joshy and Daddy still think they're invincible??

 

In their last motions regarding this, the defense claimed that someone could have downloaded CSA material to the car lot computer remotely, without necessarily physically being at the car lot computer. 

This was said in response to the prosecution's claim that one of the other people who allegedly had access to the computer, William Mize, was shopping at a Walmart 100 miles away during the time of the alleged crime. Mize apparently has receipts showing the date/time of his Walmart shopping excursion. The defense said that someone else could have used his credit/debit card, an excuse that only works if Mize can't be found on Walmart security footage. 

6 minutes ago, Tuxcat said:

Who do the other two cell phones belong to?

And IIRC the investigators had the time of download fairly well pinpointed along with timestamps that put Josh at the computer/car lot. If Josh Williams was in jail and Caleb was in Illinois, is the argument that the material was downloaded prior to the pings and then just "accidentally accessed" by Josh at a later date? Or will the argument be that the ping itself was incorrect (I know initially investigators went to the wrong address apparently).

Apologies for my questions. I haven't been keeping up!

(Also I'm surprised that Josiah isn't listed as potential witness. I was sure he would be called given Lauren's recent instagram scrubbing)

The other two cellphones belong to William Mize (see above), and Randall Barry, who apparently only started working at the car lot after the alleged crime, and thus didn't have access to the computer. Barry has also, not apparently, been lying to everyone involved here, with the result that it's not clear when he actually started working at the car lot. I suspect this will be discussed at trial, assuming Barry is even called; he doesn't sound like the most reliable witness. 

[hathorlive]

3 hours ago, Lady Whistleup said:

I hope they don't make Jill or any of his sisters testify. It would be so traumatic and they'd have to relive not only the abuse by Josh but also how little their parents cared. 

Jill might actually find it therapeutic to confront her abuser.  She's been in therapy a while and she might want the chance to call him out and publicly denounce him.  Then again, I think Jill is the last gasp at getting the prior abuse in, in case Mrs. Holt is denied the chance to testify.  I'm proud of her for putting herself out there.  I know the prosecutors do NOT want this to happen, but good for Jill for doing the right thing.  It might be the FIRST time that a Duggar has done the right thing.  Either Jill, you own your feelings.  No one gets to tell you what you feel or who you should forgive.  This was your experience and if you want to talk about it, great.  But you are in control now. 

[Nysha]

8 hours ago, Dianaofthehunt said:

Why would she, though? Another pregnancy and baby would only add to her already overbearing burden. What would be the point of having another? In what way could she possibly benefit?

Anna's only worth in her world is her ability to produce children. If there is any chance that Sex Pest is not going to be available for her to do this then she needs to get as many as she can before he is gone.

8 hours ago, Sile said:

But some are more equal than others.

Sins that fundy xtians might regularly/accidently do are downplayed because they're forgiven each time (lying, swearing, adultery). Sins that are done by fundy xtians that are horrific if done by heathens are are equal and are forgivable (Rape=adultery, CSAM=mild pornography). And sins that are okay by heathen standards are a ticket straight to hell (LBGTQ+, believing in evolution).

2 hours ago, Zella said:

If Josh were more of a mastermind, he would have greeted the DHS raid with "has someone been hiring unreliable former felons?" rather than his subtle and not at all suspicious "has someone been downloading child pornography?" 

Will the prosecution use "has someone been downloading child pornography?" as evidence that Sex Pest knew CSAM had been downloaded?

[ChiCricket]

11 hours ago, emmawoodhouse said:

Joy. She was sitting on his lap while he read a story.

I was listening to this news video, and they said it happened while she was sitting on his lap for "Bible time." 😕

https://www.nwahomepage.com/josh-duggar-trial/arkansas-clergy-law-who-is-protected-from-testifying-in-josh-duggar-child-porn-case/

[Dnsj]

12 hours ago, CandyCaneTree said:

Why should the girls be off limits remember that males can't control their urges it's the females fault that the males can't control their urges.

And they continued to let little girls sit on his lap long after!! Disgusting parents! Disgusting Josh! Disgusting Anna!

[marleyfan]

I'm sorry I'm so late for this.  According to the National Center for Prosecution of Child Abuse, the Child Maltreatment Act in Arkansas states that a school counselor, official or teacher is required to report any "abuse, sexual abuse, neglect, sexual exploitation or abandonment of a child" that the become aware of.  Wouldn't "teacher" also mean homeschool teachers.  I also found this about homeschooling:    Homeschooling is not allowed in Arkansas if a sex offender lives in the home. The state does not require any specific teacher qualifications, does not require minimum hours of instructions or mandated subjects, and does not require student assessments such as testing or evaluations.

[Cinnabon]

11 hours ago, Dimi1 said:

we are seeing it in their lives now..that failure...Joy , jill and Jinger have separated from their families and are not dependent on them...jessa is the one that I cannot figure out...was she so damaged that she is holding out for Jimbobs love and approval...

Joy took an essentially free house from JB. 

[Snow Fairy]

I read speculations of whose father was on a jury list, and majority thinks (by elimination) that it was Kendra's dad.

 

Can you explain me, being a foreigner, what happened yesterday? Only jury selection? What will happen today?

[satrunrose]

3 hours ago, ChiCricket said:

I was listening to this news video, and they said it happened while she was sitting on his lap for "Bible time." 😕

https://www.nwahomepage.com/josh-duggar-trial/arkansas-clergy-law-who-is-protected-from-testifying-in-josh-duggar-child-porn-case/

Wait, wait, didn't we see, repeatedly, over there course of the show that "Bible Time" was a whole family event led by Jim Bob? So Josh molested his five-year-old sister in an open room with 10-16 siblings AND at least one parent present. Please someone tell me I'm wrong about this, because otherwise there will never be enough WTFs. 

 

And if I'm right, I hope to God either Mrs Holt or Jill is allowed to testify. I hate the girls getting even more trauma, but this is beyond depraved and should be part of the considerations (morally, even if not legally). 

Edited December 1, 2021 by satrunrose

[skatelady]

I woke up at 5:30 today, without an alarm, cuz  TODAY'S THE DAY!!!!!!!!!!!!

(ok, maybe it's menopause, but still..... )

 

[GeeGolly]

If I can inject some humor... let the games begin.

[lascuba]

14 hours ago, Dimi1 said:

we are seeing it in their lives now..that failure...Joy , jill and Jinger have separated from their families and are not dependent on them...jessa is the one that I cannot figure out...was she so damaged that she is holding out for Jimbobs love and approval...

I won't speculate on what effect Josh's actions had on her, but she, her siblings, and her parents have all repeatedly spoken about what a bad child Jessa was. I can imagine that having her parents approval as an adult might feel really good to her.

Edited December 1, 2021 by lascuba

[Churchhoney]

2 hours ago, Snow Fairy said:

I read speculations of whose father was on a jury list, and majority thinks (by elimination) that it was Kendra's dad.

 

Can you explain me, being a foreigner, what happened yesterday? Only jury selection? What will happen today?

By the end of yesterday the prosecution and the defense had agreed on who'll be on the jury. A fairly large group of people -- 50 or so? -- came to the courtroom. They were asked some questions to try to eliminate anybody who would be too biased one way or another, and the prosecuting attorneys and defense attorneys got to make some choices about who could stay. 

They chose 12 people for the jury. Plus alternates....I haven't seen a number, but maybe 4 or 6. The alternates will also be in the courtroom the whole time, and if a currently seated juror can't continue for some reason (they get sick, they sleep in court, whatever...), the alternate with the lowest jury number will join the official jurors. 

Today the judge will say some preliminary things, and then the prosecution will begin making its case. 

[tnvolgrl]

All I have to say is.....YOU GO JILL! Take your life back! You suffered not only at the hands of Smuggar but your parents as well.  You are the only one to seek therapy & will be the one that will come out stronger on the other side. Jill can be the one that burns Smugs down & wipes that smirk of Anna's face. Stay strong Jill.  Say what you want about her beliefs but her willingness to testify takes balls and strength.  Derek,  no matter what you think of his beliefs, is giving his wife the strength to stand up against Smugs, SmugAnna & her family.  If no one else says it I am proud of her.  Her testimony will not bother Smugs or Anna b/c they believe he is above it all. Derek seems like he let her know that no matter what she had been told her whole life this was never her fault despite what Smugs and her "parents" told her. No matter what she is facing her demons which is sadly her now brother & parents.

[Madtown]

If Jill does testify, I hope she stares right into Anna's dead eyes the entire time she is telling the jury what Josh did to her.

[hathorlive]

3 hours ago, Snow Fairy said:

I read speculations of whose father was on a jury list, and majority thinks (by elimination) that it was Kendra's dad.

 

Can you explain me, being a foreigner, what happened yesterday? Only jury selection? What will happen today?

Yesterday the defense and prosecution (state) questioned potential jury members through a process known as voir dire.  It's fancy French for speak truth (or something like that).  This gives both sides the ability to ask questions of each potential member to see who might be a good juror for their case (and to get rid or "strike" anyone they think will be against them).  

These questions can be straight forward ("Do you know the Duggars from TV or from groups you associate with") to obscure, like the ones the defense asked about owning/running a small business and dealing with employees.  The later tells me that the defense will really push that one of Josh's "employees" downloaded the material.

They picked 6 alternate jurors to hear the case along side the 12 official members.  Today they will probably have a ruling on the admissibility of past abuses aka Mrs. Holt's testimony and move on to opening statements, where both sides "preview" their case.  This is kind of a show, where the lawyers get to be really emphatic about "what really happened" with no interruptions from the other side.   The prosecution lays out their case first, then the defense will rebut and call witnesses that support their case.

[CouchTater]

Just watched this Youtube video, courtesy of a Reddit poster (thank goodness for the diligent folks at the DuggarSnark subreddit!).  It's a little long, but really interesting.  It gave me a little more appreciation for the terrible position Anna finds herself in today.  She may be all-in with Josh now, but her boat was sunk looong ago thanks to her dad.  Ugh.

 

 

[GeeGolly]

26 minutes ago, tnvolgrl said:

All I have to say is.....YOU GO JILL! Take your life back! You suffered not only at the hands of Smuggar but your parents as well.  You are the only one to seek therapy & will be the one that will come out stronger on the other side. Jill can be the one that burns Smugs down & wipes that smirk of Anna's face. Stay strong Jill.  Say what you want about her beliefs but her willingness to testify takes balls and strength.  Derek,  no matter what you think of his beliefs, is giving his wife the strength to stand up against Smugs, SmugAnna & her family.  If no one else says it I am proud of her.  Her testimony will not bother Smugs or Anna b/c they believe he is above it all. Derek seems like he let her know that no matter what she had been told her whole life this was never her fault despite what Smugs and her "parents" told her. No matter what she is facing her demons which is sadly her now brother & parents.

I actually just posted my opinion about Jill testifying, in her thread, before seeing this. My take, from a therapist's view is a little different.

[Guest]

Mea culpa, everyone.

I made a mistake and added some confusion to the forum last night. I was reviewing posts and I thought Joy had not publicly come forward as a victim. I did in depth research (aka I googled it) and didn't see any confirmation she had come forward. However, @Scarlett45 pointed out to me that it was confirmed by Joy publicly, so I have removed my previous mod note about this and restored the posts that should not have been removed. If yours was affected, I do apologize.  

Please remember to keep the conversation regarding to the victims to what we know though and not to speculation on details that have not been made public.

Thank you.

[SunnyBeBe]

Man…scary potential jurors.  Hmmm…..I wonder who got in.  So, Jill is on list.  I didn’t realize it was certain.

 

https://people.com/tv/josh-duggar-trial-jury-selected/

 

[hathorlive]

1 hour ago, GeeGolly said:

I actually just posted my opinion about Jill testifying, in her thread, before seeing this. My take, from a therapist's view is a little different.

I think this is literally a minefield for a survivor.  The very reasons to testify are reasons that will cause more angst down the line.  There is no good answer.  If Jill testifies, it will effectively blow her family apart.  I think your view as a therapist is very, very important.

[Cinnabon]

Just now, hathorlive said:

I think this is literally a minefield for a survivor.  The very reasons to testify are reasons that will cause more angst down the line.  There is no good answer.  If Jill testifies, it will effectively blow her family apart.  I think your view as a therapist is very, very important.

Her sisters (and the rest of the family) should be thanking her for having the courage to report his abuse years ago. And it’s disturbing to think they would ostracize her for telling the truth.

[SunnyBeBe]

All I can figure is that Josh came to the conclusion that he could better accept serving a prison sentence, while maintaining his innocence than admitting guilt or even that there was sufficient evidence to conclude he was guilty.  It’s a hardline to draw, but some mindsets seem incapable of showing their true self.  

[hathorlive]

2 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

Her sisters (and the rest of the family) should be thanking her for having the courage to report his abuse years ago. And it’s disturbing to think they would ostracize her for telling the truth.

Oh I hate JB and Meech and every brother who stood by and let these ladies be gaslighted.  No matter what people think about Derrick, at least he's ANGRY on his wife behalf.  Why isn't Austin being more vocal? He doesn't need JB.  I guess we don't know what Joy wants, so I shouldn't be projecting oughts and shoulds on them.  But Jill did the right thing years ago and was told to suck it up and put others before herself.  

But let's face the facts.  No matter what truth Jill says or doesn't share, the act of allowing her name to be put on a list, let along testifying, is an act JB will see as open warfare.  And while JIll may win the battle, she might end up being even more ostracized by her family.  Jill seems like a kind, sensitive person.  Unlike me, who would love to blast a creepy brother from the witness stand, Jill doesn't want to rip things apart.   She could have easily done that over the course of the past few years.  She's been vague about the estrangement.  But this is not something JB is going to handle well. 

[Cinnabon]

3 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

Oh I hate JB and Meech and every brother who stood by and let these ladies be gaslighted.  No matter what people think about Derrick, at least he's ANGRY on his wife behalf.  Why isn't Austin being more vocal? He doesn't need JB.  I guess we don't know what Joy wants, so I shouldn't be projecting oughts and shoulds on them.  But Jill did the right thing years ago and was told to suck it up and put others before herself.  

But let's face the facts.  No matter what truth Jill says or doesn't share, the act of allowing her name to be put on a list, let along testifying, is an act JB will see as open warfare.  And while JIll may win the battle, she might end up being even more ostracized by her family.  Jill seems like a kind, sensitive person.  Unlike me, who would love to blast a creepy brother from the witness stand, Jill doesn't want to rip things apart.   She could have easily done that over the course of the past few years.  She's been vague about the estrangement.  But this is not something JB is going to handle well. 

But JB said he just wanted the truth to come out. 😆

[ozziemom]

JB has probably already moved Jill to the “never see again or allow in my house” list just by allowing her name to be listed as a witness. We have seen Meechelle and some of the siblings interacting with the Dillards but this may be not be allowed by JB at all. He is so controlling he can’t possibly allow this very public event, Jill testifying for the prosecution, that he clearly disapproves of, to go unpunished. And what else can he do to Jill at this point but forbid any contact. What a great example of family values and Christianity.

[BitterApple]

I agree there's no way Boob is gonna let this go. This is the game guy who, in court, told the attorney what would and wouldn't be allowed. He got a public smackdown and there's nothing a narcissist hates more than a blow to his ego. 

As mentioned above, Jill's already banned from the TTH, so I think Boob will destroy what sibling relationships she has left. Maybe Jana won't get the money to expand her garden, or Jessa won't get a bigger house. He'll find clever ways to punish anyone who associates with Jill. 

[GeeGolly]

Maybe Jill has to testify, or thinks she has to. Or maybe its as simple as Jill was called to testify, and will repeat something she already said on TV. Something Bobye will also be testifying to.

[Rootbeer]

33 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

Oh I hate JB and Meech and every brother who stood by and let these ladies be gaslighted.  No matter what people think about Derrick, at least he's ANGRY on his wife behalf.  Why isn't Austin being more vocal? He doesn't need JB.  I guess we don't know what Joy wants, so I shouldn't be projecting oughts and shoulds on them.  But Jill did the right thing years ago and was told to suck it up and put others before herself.  

But let's face the facts.  No matter what truth Jill says or doesn't share, the act of allowing her name to be put on a list, let along testifying, is an act JB will see as open warfare.  And while JIll may win the battle, she might end up being even more ostracized by her family.  Jill seems like a kind, sensitive person.  Unlike me, who would love to blast a creepy brother from the witness stand, Jill doesn't want to rip things apart.   She could have easily done that over the course of the past few years.  She's been vague about the estrangement.  But this is not something JB is going to handle well. 

In the end, though, what could Jill have done to prevent her name being put on the list?  JB himself was initially listed as a potential prosecution witness.  Technically, Jill has to testify or be held in contempt of court if she is called, as does everyone else.  Of course, the prosecution wouldn't have listed her if they didn't think she would be an asset to the prosecution; but she technically didn't have a choice.

However, logic and reason were never JB's strong suits.  He thought he could raise objections and refuse to answer various lines of questioning from the prosecution; so I guess he isn't likely to cut Jill any slack if she testifies; she's probably already on his sh**list for being on the  prosecution witness list.  Unless she gets up there and deliberately evades and lies her a** off to protect Smuggar as her father did, she is probably burning those bridges forever.

[EVS]

Someone just posted on reddit that the judge ruled that evidence of prior acts will be allowed. The person linked to the judge’s decision so it is confirmed. 

[SusanM]

1 minute ago, EVS said:

Someone just posted on reddit that the judge ruled that evidence of prior acts will be allowed. The person linked to the judge’s decision so it is confirmed. 

If I were Smuggar's lawyers I'd be having a come to Jesus conversation with him right about now.  Take a plea.

[CandyCaneTree]

Smuggar stick a fork into yourself because you are done. 

[Zella]

1 minute ago, SusannahM said:

If I were Smuggar's lawyers I'd be having a come to Jesus conversation with him right about now.  Take a plea.

I suspect that he's had many come to Jesus talks with them throughout this, and he remains determined to go through with it. I've always thought that Josh resents his family, so maybe he's enjoying dragging them all through this rather than quietly going. 

[hathorlive]

12 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

Maybe Jill has to testify, or thinks she has to. Or maybe its as simple as Jill was called to testify, and will repeat something she already said on TV. Something Bobye will also be testifying to.

This is true.  She could just say that when she was young her brother was sly and did stuff.  But her saying that to the jury speaks volumes.  They will then associate Josh with the CP since it's the same age and sex as his victims.  The prosecution isn't stupid.  They'll let her say a few things (if that's all she wants to say) and then in closing arguments, they'll remind the jury that the only suspect with opportunity and a history of sexualizing young girls is Josh.  It's powerful.

[Lindsay Loo Hoo]

After seeing Anna appearing smug and holding his hand, I have no sympathy for her. The only ones I have sympathy for are the children. Fuck you Anna. 

[hathorlive]

12 minutes ago, Rootbeer said:

In the end, though, what could Jill have done to prevent her name being put on the list?  JB himself was initially listed as a potential prosecution witness.  Technically, Jill has to testify or be held in contempt of court if she is called, as does everyone else.  Of course, the prosecution wouldn't have listed her if they didn't think she would be an asset to the prosecution; but she technically didn't have a choice.

Prosecutors rarely put an abuse survivor on the stand as a hostile witness.  All Jill has to do is starting shaking and crying and the jury would hate the prosecutor.  Jill agreed to this.  I think she probably agreed if the Holt thing didn't work out.  She may not testify but allowing herself to be a witness is a pretty loud clap.   I guess we could be wrong and the prosecutor is forcing her to testify, but I've never seen that happen in these cases before.

6 minutes ago, Zella said:

I suspect that he's had many come to Jesus talks with them throughout this, and he remains determined to go through with it. I've always thought that Josh resents his family, so maybe he's enjoying dragging them all through this rather than quietly going. 

I guess I'm shocked at how much damning information has come out because he wouldn't take a plea.  I knew we'd find things out, but so far it's been seismic in the revelation scale. You just have to wonder what else they are hiding?