Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[Scarlett45]

@Vaysh @wilsie I am of two minds-if Anna didn't know the extent of Josh's abuse towards his sisters* I could see her feeling trapped after marriage and kids with him. But why make ANOTHER CHILD?!!! Again I don't know if sex with Josh was a choice for her (forced sex is rape if you're married or not), but if I had been her I would've told him to keep his hands off of me and if he touched me I was going straight to the tabloids and ruining the Duggar money machine for real this time, and had an inhouse separation, at least until the kids were a bit older. (I think JB would've supported her on that) 

Something about the way she stares at him adoringly makes me believe she is still in love with him and prefers not to remember the awful things he did to his sisters and the danger he put her health in while he was having sex with strangers me met online.

 

Anna is a loving and attentive caregiver but I think Michelle was initally as well, it wasn't until Joesph she got so overwhelmed and had a laundry breakdown. Also michelle didn't have an army of sisters in laws to help her when her kids were small.

 

 

*if she knew why in the fuck did she agree to marry him?!!

[lascuba]

38 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

@Vaysh @wilsie I am of two minds-if Anna didn't know the extent of Josh's abuse towards his sisters* I could see her feeling trapped after marriage and kids with him. But why make ANOTHER CHILD?!!! Again I don't know if sex with Josh was a choice for her (forced sex is rape if you're married or not), but if I had been her I would've told him to keep his hands off of me and if he touched me I was going straight to the tabloids and ruining the Duggar money machine for real this time, and had an inhouse separation, at least until the kids were a bit older. (I think JB would've supported her on that) 

Something about the way she stares at him adoringly makes me believe she is still in love with him and prefers not to remember the awful things he did to his sisters and the danger he put her health in while he was having sex with strangers me met online.

 

Anna is a loving and attentive caregiver but I think Michelle was initally as well, it wasn't until Joesph she got so overwhelmed and had a laundry breakdown. Also michelle didn't have an army of sisters in laws to help her when her kids were small.

 

 

*if she knew why in the fuck did she agree to marry him?!!

Because everyone's redeemed via Jesus. Anna sincerely believes this, and assuming the Duggars were forthright with her and her parents about the molestations (and I tend to believe they were, only because they weren't exactly discreet about it when it came to members of their church), the fact that they talked a good game about remorse and "consequences" would have been enough for it to be a non-issue for her. There's also the fact that Anna was a serious Duggar fangirl when she met Josh up until well into their marriage ("We haven't picked our letter yet!"), so that would have colored her reaction as well. Josh could have gone into explicit detail about it all and it wouldn't have rung any alarm bells for her, because Jesus and famous godly family.

As for forgiving Ashley Madison...more educated, intelligent, options-having women than her are really stupid when it comes to what they'll forgive their men. It makes complete sense that her dumb ass would forgive him and have another child asap.

[Scarlett45]

@lascuba thank you for expanding on that. Cheating with other adult partners I can see forgiving, (although Ashley Madison was so slimy, what if he passed on an STI to Anna?), but he molested his 5yrs old sister. And then it's OBVIOUS he wasn't "redeemed through Jesus" because he continued on with compulsive sexual behavior and embarrassed her in the media. 

 

I am surpised by just how QUICKLY she was able to "get over" everything. Although it might just be she's thinking with her clitoris and Josh is her only available option for partnered sex. 

[BitterApple]

Anna just keeps digging herself a deeper grave every time she gets pregnant by that slug. She only had to look to her own family to see that surviving post-Gothard can be done. Susannah is now engaged, and Rebekah found some rich old coot to take care of her and her kids, so it's not totally hopeless. If Anna hadn't been an idiot and stopped at Marcus, she probably could've gotten out and had a halfway decent life. But now with five kids under seven, that's pretty much imposssible. She's apparently on board with having a dysfunctional marriage as opposed to no marriage, so she has to lay in the bed she made for herself.

[jukie]

We can all be hyper critical of Anna and what we see and perceive as bad choices, parenting skills, and unfathomable loyalty to Smuggar but we are looking at it from a position of logical, free thinking position IMHO.  Anna has been raised in a cult like environment, indoctrinated from birth about headship, birthing as may spawn as possible, and the wrath of GOD.

Her brain more than likely didn't even compute that she should consider her position, that she might have the option of leaving, that having a baby with a serial adulterer who assaulted his sisters after she was made aware of his offences was an option.  If you are brainwashed to the point your are subservient to your 'headship' and I believe even more so to Boob, you don't have the brain capacity to question.

When all the people that you know and surround you are pulling in one direction do you question everything you know? you trust them, they, you believe, have your best interests at heart as they are after all your family, headship, and are Godly people.

She knows no better - and that is how Boob likes it and wants it.  I would say she has behaved exactly like Boob would want one of his own girls to behave and I can only imagine how 'proud' he is of her, and smug he is in his choice of such a virtuous bride for Smuggar.

[DkNNy79]

I'm not going to feel sorry for her.  She's an adult, she's not forced to live the life that she has.  I don't care what brain washing she went through as a child.  She's an adult now, she has access to social media.  She's not locked in her house and she's been to places outside her town.  There exists life outside of Gothard and she even has examples of that in her own family? 

At the end of the day, its her life.  Her husband molested his sisters and has cheated on her multiple times.  If she still wants to be with him and keep popping out babies that's her choice.  We don't have to like it.   Some people can't be alone, maybe she's one of them.  Being a divorced single mom would be hard and maybe she just doesn't want to go through that.  I guess we won't ever know unless she tells us.

Edited September 14, 2017 by DkNNy79

[Annb67]

3 hours ago, DkNNy79 said:

I'm not going to feel sorry for her.  She's an adult, she's not forced to live the life that she has.  I don't care what brain washing she went through as a child.  She's an adult now, she has access to social media.  She's not locked in her house and she's been to places outside her town.  There exists life outside of Gothard and she even has examples of that in her own family? 

At the end of the day, its her life.  Her husband molested her sisters and has cheated on her multiple times.  If she still wants to be with him and keep popping out babies that's her choice.  We don't have to like it.   Some people can't be alone, maybe she's one of them.  Being a divorced single mom would be hard and maybe she just doesn't want to go through that.  I guess we won't ever know unless she tells us.

Can I love this 1,000 times?

[Fuzzysox]

3 hours ago, DkNNy79 said:

I'm not going to feel sorry for her.  She's an adult, she's not forced to live the life that she has.  I don't care what brain washing she went through as a child.  She's an adult now, she has access to social media.  She's not locked in her house and she's been to places outside her town.  There exists life outside of Gothard and she even has examples of that in her own family? 

At the end of the day, its her life.  Her husband molested her sisters and has cheated on her multiple times.  If she still wants to be with him and keep popping out babies that's her choice.  We don't have to like it.   Some people can't be alone, maybe she's one of them.  Being a divorced single mom would be hard and maybe she just doesn't want to go through that.  I guess we won't ever know unless she tells us.

Imagine the horror of having to take the garbage out herself if she is husbandless.

[DkNNy79]

45 minutes ago, Fuzzysox said:

Imagine the horror of having to take the garbage out herself if she is husbandless.

I know right?  None of these girls have any life skills and I don't think they're willing to put in the hard work to get them.  They are just happy to be breeding machines.

 

So many strong single mothers in this world who were able to overcome a lot. 

Edited September 14, 2017 by DkNNy79

[Sew Sumi]

I always cackle at the hoity toity garbage remark. I just took out garbage this morning. Mr. Sumi only takes it out if it's full, and he's headed for work (the bin is near our parking space). But trust, it's about a 10:1 ratio. 

Anna, you don't need a man to take out the garbage. Smuggar just needs to exit nearest the nearest dumpster and throw himself in.

Edited September 14, 2017 by Sew Sumi

[Albanyguy]

7 minutes ago, DkNNy79 said:

Imagine the horror of having to take the garbage out herself if she is husbandless.

And I'll bet that in reality, she's taken the garbage out plenty of times because her headship was too lazy to get off his dead ass.  We've seen too many examples of Josh's selfishness for me to believe her when she parrots the party line about him being the perfect traditional Ward Cleaver husband.

[Churchhoney]

18 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

Hellz no. Josh should keep his slimy face off of social media. Just no. The M kids are not at fault, and they are sweet innocent children. But the first 4 kids didn't stop Josh from being an asshole and those one won't either. I don't know how she stands to look at him knowing what he did to his sisters. 

Denial is not just a river in Egypt. 

[Temperance]

Yeah he made her carry the suitcases all the time, I'm sure she takes the trash out too!

She also seemed to work harder than Josh when he owned the car lot.  She did paperwork and office stuff on top of taking care of their and being pregnant. 

[Kirjava]

It doesn't work that way. You can't spend 17 years and 364 days of your life being brainwashed, denied adequate education, and taught that your entire gender is flawed and only fit for breeding an army for Jesus, and then turn 18 years and one minute old and then be held accountable for every misfortune that befalls you because now you're an adult. I would expect that for most women brought up in this cult, it will take as many years for them to break free as it took their parents and Gothard to brainwash them to begin with, if they ever do break free at all. 

Do some women make it out on their own? Sure, and that is impressive, but it doesn't mean that every one who doesn't is worthy of derision. And to be frank, I've heard some nastier comments about Anna staying with Josh and having another baby than I have about Josh molesting his sisters, having affairs, and impregnating her with said baby.

[crazycatlady58]

It is very easy to say what someone  should do, but unless  you have lived that life  you do not know the strength  it takes to change . Some people  just are not strong  mentally  or have the intelligence to make a drastic  life change. This does not mean  they are bad, stupid  or lazy  they just do not have that ability . 

[JoanArc]

2 hours ago, Fuzzysox said:

Imagine the horror of having to take the garbage out herself if she is husbandless.

 Almost as bad as carrying her own luggage.

[Scarlett45]

36 minutes ago, Kirjava said:

And to be frank, I've heard some nastier comments about Anna staying with Josh and having another baby than I have about Josh molesting his sisters, having affairs, and impregnating her with said baby.

Yes- because no matter how badly a man behaves somehow the woman standing next to him is either 1. At fault, or 2. Just as bad because she "chose him". Men are expected to be lying cheating scum, but women aren't expected to stay once the men are "found out", never mind the emotional or financial dependence they have on them./sarcasm 

 

I dont think Anna is as bad as Josh. I don't necessarily believe that the baby was conceived consentually. The people who I feel bad for are the M kids. I may not understand her thinking, etc but I believe Josh is horrid for what he did to his little sisters and I wouldnt wish a husband like that on my enemy. 

Edited September 14, 2017 by Scarlett45

[galaxychaser]

So if I had 5 kids I would name them

 

Mason

Milo

Malachi 

Mary

Maya

[kaleidoscope]

I am wondering how schooling is working for all of the kids.  Is Anna taking the older Ms over to the TTH every day?  Is she teaching at home?  We now have the second generation Gothard group "educating" the third generation.  It chills my bones.

[Vaysh]

Out of curiosity, what would Anna's choices had been had she decided to divorce Josh? I'm not familiar with US divorce laws but I'm assuming that there would at least be child support? Is that enough to live on? What happens if the non-custodian parent doesn't have income enough for child support, does the state step in and pay? Could she get a job with her lack of credentials? Would she be able to afford day care for the kids if she did?

I'm trying to put myself in Anna's shoes because I can honestly say that I could not have stomached staying with a cheating husband if I had had any kind of opportunity to leave, but all the culty nonsense aside, I don't know enough about US society to know if leaving would be feasible if you're an un-educated mother of four with no work experience.  Like, here, I would have access to payed parental leave, unemployment benefits, the child grant, subsidized housing and day care, free school lunches, free medical care & dental care etc but I know unemployed single parents still struggle to make ends meet because kids are bloody expensive!

Edited September 14, 2017 by Vaysh

[JoanArc]

25 minutes ago, kaleidoscope said:

I am wondering how schooling is working for all of the kids.  Is Anna taking the older Ms over to the TTH every day?  Is she teaching at home?  We now have the second generation Gothard group "educating" the third generation.  It chills my bones.

Anna is first gen, Josh's kids are the second generation. I think by the third gen their particular cult will be washed up.

[Sew Sumi]

Anna was born into Gothardism, so she's second generation. Smuggar wasn't born into it, but his siblings were, so close enough for him. 

[Scarlett45]

12 minutes ago, Vaysh said:

Out of curiosity, what would Anna's choices had been had she decided to divorce Josh? I'm not familiar with US divorce laws but I'm assuming that there would at least be child support? Is that enough to live on? What happens if the non-custodian parent doesn't have income enough for child support, does the state step in and pay? Could she get a job with her lack of credentials? Would she be able to afford day care for the kids if she did?

I'm trying to put myself in Anna's shoes because I can honestly say that I could not have stomached staying with a cheating husband if I had had any kind of opportunity to leave, but all the culty nonsense aside, I don't know enough about US society to know if leaving would be feasible if you're an un-educated mother of four with no work experience.  Like, here, I would have access to payed parental leave, unemployment benefits, the child grant, subsidized housing and day care, free school lunches, free medical care & dental care etc but I know unemployed single parents still struggle to make ends meet because kids are bloody expensive!

Yes Anna would be entitled to child support, but if Josh is technically unemployed, she probably wouldn't get much if anything- it's not like he works a 9-5 where payroll can pull it out of his paycheck before he can see it. She would be entitled to some of the resources earned during the marriage, but JB is very smart, he probably didn't allow Josh and Anna to own anything themselves but kept it all in a family trust. No she would NOT be able to afford day care for 4 kids while she worked. Her best bet if she wanted to leave would've been requiring a payout from JB to sign a non disclosure agreement and a monthly allowance for a year or two until she got some certication in some type of job. 

 

Never mind the emotional struggles if Josh faught her for custody.....

Edited September 14, 2017 by Scarlett45

[JoanArc]

18 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

Anna was born into Gothardism, so she's second generation. Smuggar wasn't born into it, but his siblings were, so close enough for him. 

Eh, I think it depends on how we define generation. I'm just happy to know that once the control freaks pass on - JimBob,Michelle, and Gothard, it will all fracture and fall apart. The only generation that matters is the one profiting off it.

 

13 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

r mind the emotional struggles if Josh faught her for custody.....

I can't imagine a Judge giving him total custody, even with JB's lawyers,

Edited September 15, 2017 by JoanArc

[Churchhoney]

14 minutes ago, Vaysh said:

Out of curiosity, what would Anna's choices had been had she decided to divorce Josh? I'm not familiar with US divorce laws but I'm assuming that there would at least be child support? Is that enough to live on? What happens if the non-custodian parent doesn't have income enough for child support, does the state step in and pay? Could she get a job with her lack of credentials? Would she be able to afford day care for the kids if she did?

I'm trying to put myself in Anna's shoes because I can honestly say that I could not have stomached staying with a cheating husband if I had had any kind of opportunity to leave, but all the culty nonsense aside, I don't know enough about US society to know if leaving would be feasible if you're an un-educated mother of four with no work experience.  Like, here, I would have access to payed parental leave, unemployment benefits, the child grant, subsidized housing and day care, free school lunches, free medical care & dental care etc but I know unemployed single parents still struggle to make ends meet because kids are bloody expensive!

The main story is that she'd be wholly dependent on what Josh could pay. And as we know, he's not hella employable himself. 

If his contribution was so low that it plunged her into a certain degree of poverty, then she could get government help of various kinds -- food stamps, health insurance for the kids, etc. But in the States she wouldn't have any access to paid parental leave -- or, in jobs at the level she could get, any paid leave all, for any reason, in many cases -- and while the kids would likely qualify for free school lunches, there's very little day care in the United States and almost none of it is free (and what there is is often tough to find and to afford, even for the well off and well employed), and subsidized housing is also scarce very very hard to get. Health insurance for an adult can often also be pretty hard to come by, depending on where you live. 

The argument for her just up and going is a tough one to make, for me anyway, when I consider the difficulty and the fact that she's just not ever lived that life and would have a very steep learning curve with it. Her brother offered to help -- but was he really in a position to essentially support five extra people for the period of time it would take her to train for and land a job that would be adequate? I don't know that there's a lot of evidence that he was. ... Plus, she's drunk that homeschooling Kool-aid, and she almost certainly would need to send the kids to regular school for the family to survive -- and not even a private Christian school. And I'm sure to her that would seem like an impossible hurdle. 

I do feel bad for her about all this. 

At the same time, I'm disgusted with her insisting on child number five. That, at least, she should have had the sense to refrain from under the circumstances. But to not have the guts to leave, under the circumstances? That seems pretty understandable to me, given that she's been sheltered and the life she would have had would have been very daunting. 

[Scarlett45]

@JoanArc no I couldn't see that either, but he could drag her name through the mud, insist she was an unfit mother, prohibit her from leaving the state so that they could have joint custody etc. the entire FIGHT would be hell. 

[GeeGolly]

Forgiveness. In my field its comes up in sessions often. Its amazing what folks will forgive and its just as amazing at what folks won't forgive. I've worked with educated childless women, with their own income, who stay with some shady husbands. I've also worked with women receiving state entitlements to survive that have run for the hills. Relationships are complicated and unique. Who knows why Anna choose to stay, but she's not the first women to stay in similar situations and she won't be the last.

[farmgal4]

10 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

@lascuba thank you for expanding on that. Cheating with other adult partners I can see forgiving, (although Ashley Madison was so slimy, what if he passed on an STI to Anna?), but he molested his 5yrs old sister. And then it's OBVIOUS he wasn't "redeemed through Jesus" because he continued on with compulsive sexual behavior and embarrassed her in the media. 

 

I am surpised by just how QUICKLY she was able to "get over" everything. Although it might just be she's thinking with her clitoris and Josh is her only available option for partnered sex. 

Do fundies even know what a clitoris is?

[TeaTV]

54 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

@JoanArc he could drag her name through the mud, insist she was an unfit mother, prohibit her from leaving the state so that they could have joint custody etc. the entire FIGHT would be hell. 

Pretty much what happened to me when I left.  Had I known what was in store, I would've stayed and tried to figure something else out. I don't blame Anna at all. The only way I was able to move out of state was to agree to waive all rights to support and medical insurance--as if he was even complying in the first place. Like Joshua, he also worked for himself and had no problem lying about his income so what he was finally ordered to pay after 10 years in court on and off was negligible.

[cmr2014]

1 hour ago, Scarlett45 said:

@JoanArc no I couldn't see that either, but he could drag her name through the mud, insist she was an unfit mother, prohibit her from leaving the state so that they could have joint custody etc. the entire FIGHT would be hell. 

I don't see Josh doing that. He doesn't hate Anna, and he must know that she has more than enough provocation to leave. I also think that Josh doesn't want his kids growing up in the TTH, and if he got custody, that's exactly what would happen. I think Anna is far more enamoured of the Duggar lifestyle than Josh is.

[MamaMax]

2 hours ago, JoanArc said:

Anna is first gen, Josh's kids are the second generation. I think by the third gen their particular cult will be washed up.

So let it be written; so let it be done.

[Scarlett45]

4 minutes ago, cmr2014 said:

I don't see Josh doing that. He doesn't hate Anna, and he must know that she has more than enough provocation to leave. I also think that Josh doesn't want his kids growing up in the TTH, and if he got custody, that's exactly what would happen. I think Anna is far more enamoured of the Duggar lifestyle than Josh is.

I agree with you that Josh doesn't hate Anna, but I don't think his Gothard male pride would allow him to "let her" leave the state etc.

Also now, Josh is a whipped little boy at the mercy of JB. He had to come home from D.C. with his tail between his legs. Right now he has to do what JB says to do (hence the 6months in Jesus Jail). I don't see Josh taking the moral high ground on anything at this point. 

[MunichNark]

She finally popped out? About time. Poor child.

I cannot bear this disgusting pig's face. At all. I don't want to see him, I don't want to hear him. I don't want to read about him.

Having said that, I also reckon that eventually he will explode. I give it another poor child into this mess before it happens.

[TeaTV]

15 hours ago, cmr2014 said:

I don't see Josh doing that. He doesn't hate Anna, and he must know that she has more than enough provocation to leave. I also think that Josh doesn't want his kids growing up in the TTH, and if he got custody, that's exactly what would happen. I think Anna is far more enamoured of the Duggar lifestyle than Josh is.

Respectfully disagree. Some people will do anything for money and to protect their reputation and the Josh and JB are most likely not exceptions.

[MamaMax]

IMO, you have to consider that BOTH Josh and Anna have been brainwashed to believe that leaving their marriage makes them bad people.  They probably both truly believe that they are doing what's right, regardless of what they actually WANT to do. 

I think Josh's whole psyche is so totally fucked up because he has been told his whole life that the things he naturally desires are evil and make him a bad person.  Now, I don't mean molesting his sisters. But I personally don't think he's a pedophile. I don't think he is turned on by kids, I think he is just so totally sexually dysfunctional.

If he had been born into a family where sexual curiosity wasn't considered EVIL, he may have looked at Playboy magazines, masturbated, etc. He may have accepted the fact that he liked girls who were sexy, and not the "wholesome" type, and was allowed to date and fool around with who he wanted, it could've been a totally different story.

Edited September 15, 2017 by MamaMax

[bigskygirl]

49 minutes ago, MamaMax said:

IMO, you have to consider that BOTH Josh and Anna have been brainwashed to believe that leaving their marriage makes them bad people.  They probably both truly believe that they are doing what's right, regardless of what they actually WANT to do. 

I think Josh's whole psyche is so totally fucked up because he has been told his whole life that the things he naturally desires are evil and make him a bad person.  Now, I don't mean molesting his sisters. But I personally don't think he's a pedophile. I don't think he is turned on by kids, I think he is just so totally sexually dysfunctional.

If he had been born into a family where sexual curiosity wasn't considered EVIL, he may have looked at Playboy magazines, masturbated, etc. He may have accepted the fact that he liked girls who were sexy, and not the "wholesome" type, and was allowed to date and fool around with who he wanted, it could've been a totally different story.

I think Josh would have turned out the same way even if he was born into a normal family with normal parents and had a normal childhood. He takes after JB in a lot of ways aka thinks he is God's gift to the world and people would follow him and his word as the gospel. Sadly the both of them have turned out to be major duds in the real world except in their own pathetic minds they are the greatest of the greats in their fantasy Duggar world.

Edited September 15, 2017 by bigskygirl

[bythelake]

17 hours ago, cmr2014 said:

I don't see Josh doing that. He doesn't hate Anna, and he must know that she has more than enough provocation to leave. I also think that Josh doesn't want his kids growing up in the TTH, and if he got custody, that's exactly what would happen. I think Anna is far more enamoured of the Duggar lifestyle than Josh is.

@cmr2014, maybe Josh wouldn't, but I have no doubt that JB would. He would go to the ends of the earth to keep Josh and the children under his thumb. We have seen on numerous occasions how he stretches the truth. If Anna left,he would paint her as a Jezebel ( with the appropriate scripture readings.) But, I'm being delusional; Anna will never leave, Josh will stay on the Duggar dole, and life will go on in Duggarland.

[andromeda331]

7 hours ago, bigskygirl said:

I think Josh would have turned out the same way even if he was born into a normal family with normal parents and had a normal childhood. He takes after JB in a lot of ways aka thinks he is God's gift to the world and people would follow him and his word as the gospel. Sadly the both of them have turned out to be major duds in the real world except in their own pathetic minds they are the greatest of the greats in their fantasy Duggar world.

So do I. I keep coming back to how smug he was all those years after the molestations, gross comments he'd made on the show towards his sisters about kissing, and his general 'tude around them as they still had to cook for him, clean, and do everything. That's not how you act if you are generally sorry for what you did and sorry to your victims his sisters.  

[floridamom]

I doubt Josh would be the guy he is today if her were born in a normal family. Perhaps his mother wouldn't have given him the 'first child attention and passes in life'. Maybe he would have been number 3 in the lineup of children and his life experience would have been totally different...no need to 'be curious' about females WITH HIS SISTERS, etc. We'll never know for sure.  I do believe that his upbringing  and household environment played a part in that situation.

[Scarlett45]

9 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

So do I. I keep coming back to how smug he was all those years after the molestations, gross comments he'd made on the show towards his sisters about kissing, and his general 'tude around them as they still had to cook for him, clean, and do everything. That's not how you act if you are generally sorry for what you did and sorry to your victims his sisters.  

I said before when I first heard the rumors (I've been following the Duggars since the first special), I didn't believe them. However I did notice that NONE of the kids seem to like Josh very much which I did think was odd, and I concluded that he was probably a douche bag. 

Inately he's probably always going to be a douchebag but growing up in a world where he wasn't forced to respect others and treated as a lord and master probably didn't help. 

[lascuba]

12 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

So do I. I keep coming back to how smug he was all those years after the molestations, gross comments he'd made on the show towards his sisters about kissing, and his general 'tude around them as they still had to cook for him, clean, and do everything. That's not how you act if you are generally sorry for what you did and sorry to your victims his sisters.  

Plus, iirc the first special was filmed very shorty after he came back from that bullshit "rehab." He had molested his sisters recently, had been "punished," and yet he was still that arrogant? Dude's a born asshole. 

Going back to Anna not leaving Josh...I never once expected her to, but I would respect her choice a hell of a lot more if I thought that it was a practical, financial decision and not "But I love him!" and "But JESUS!" Because there's no way that Anna wouldn't be plunged into poverty if she left...Josh and JB would have absolutely moved money around and made it look like Josh had even less assets the he already does to avoid having to pay an significant alimony and child support. 

[Churchhoney]

17 minutes ago, lascuba said:

Plus, iirc the first special was filmed very shorty after he came back from that bullshit "rehab." He had molested his sisters recently, had been "punished," and yet he was still that arrogant? Dude's a born asshole. 

 

I come in between the two main stated positions, I think. I completely agree that he's a born asshole, given his demeanor in that first special so soon after the fact.

But I think that, had he been born into a different kind of family, he may well have expressed his innate assholishness in a different way than sister molestation. Had he not been born a Duggar, he would have had many more external opportunities to power-trip helpless people both sexually and otherwise, and because I don't think he likely had any particular fixation on very young girls (they just happened to be the only frequently available targets of opportunity), I think there's a good chance he would have done his molestation and powertripping mostly outside the family, likely on people nearer his own age. 

Edited September 16, 2017 by Churchhoney

[lascuba]

1 minute ago, Churchhoney said:

I come in between the two main stated positions, I think. I completely agree that he's a born asshole, given his demeanor in that first special so soon after the fact.

But I think that, had he been born into a different kind of family, he may well have expressed his innate assholishness in a different way than sister molestation. Had he not been born a Duggar, he would have had more external opportunities to power-trip helpless people both sexually and otherwise, and because I don't think he likely had any particular fixation on very young girls (they just happened to be the only frequently available targets of opportunity), I think there's a good chance he would have done his molestation and powertripping mostly outside the family, likely on people nearer his own age. 

Totally agree. He would have been That Asshole  in school that powertripped over everyone, depending on his level of popularity would constantly get away with it. 

[magpye29]

On 9/14/2017 at 8:37 AM, Scarlett45 said:

if I had been her I would've told him to keep his hands off of me and if he touched me I was going straight to the tabloids and ruining the Duggar money machine for real this time, and had an inhouse separation, at least until the kids were a bit older. (I think JB would've supported her on that) 

I don't know that Anna knows this is an option.  And I respectfully disagree that JB would support that.  These folks make the same mistakes over and over again.  JB has doubled down on "Keep Josh happy in the bedroom and we won't have any more of this foolishness."

[tabloidlover]

In Gothard logic, would he be able to divorce her for not being joyfully available?  

[JocelynCavanaugh]

2 hours ago, magpye29 said:

I don't know that Anna knows this is an option.  And I respectfully disagree that JB would support that.  These folks make the same mistakes over and over again.  JB has doubled down on "Keep Josh happy in the bedroom and we won't have any more of this foolishness."

I think you're right, and the whole thing is ridiculous. There is no way to keep someone like Josh "happy in the bedroom." He is what is clinically known as a "sex pervert." No one woman, sister, or hooker can keep him from acting out. I 100% believe he's found a new outlet for his proclivities, although I can't even imagine what it would be at this point, because I am not a fellow sex pervert. Josh's parents didn't effectively confront his issues when he was a teenage molester, or a twenty-something philanderer, so unfortunately there's no reason to believe they'd start now.

[doodlebug]

3 hours ago, Churchhoney said:

I come in between the two main stated positions, I think. I completely agree that he's a born asshole, given his demeanor in that first special so soon after the fact.

But I think that, had he been born into a different kind of family, he may well have expressed his innate assholishness in a different way than sister molestation. Had he not been born a Duggar, he would have had many more external opportunities to power-trip helpless people both sexually and otherwise, and because I don't think he likely had any particular fixation on very young girls (they just happened to be the only frequently available targets of opportunity), I think there's a good chance he would have done his molestation and powertripping mostly outside the family, likely on people nearer his own age. 

While I agree that a**holes are born and not made, I do think his upbringing maximized the chances that he would be an arrogant, entitled prick.  There are some parents who recognize those tendencies in their kids and actually manage through love and discipline to mitigate them, so the kid doesn't grow up to be such a raging douche as Josh.  The fact that his parents continued to tout Josh as the heir apparent, helped him avoid legal consequences, insisted his sister act as his servants and demanded the girls express their forgiveness to him for his crimes reinforced his sense of entitlement and did nothing to encourage him to rein in his vile tendencies.

2 hours ago, tabloidlover said:

In Gothard logic, would he be able to divorce her for not being joyfully available?  

Maybe, he certainly could have brought her in front of the leaders of the church and humiliated her and probably she would've been lectured and shamed for not being a good wife to him and therefore not a Godly person.  For someone raised as Anna was, that would be hard to deal with and, knowing that would happen would be reason enough for her to keep allowing him his way in the bedroom.

[GeeGolly]

16 minutes ago, JocelynCavanaugh said:

I think you're right, and the whole thing is ridiculous. There is no way to keep someone like Josh "happy in the bedroom." He is what is clinically known as a "sex pervert." No one woman, sister, or hooker can keep him from acting out. I 100% believe he's found a new outlet for his proclivities, although I can't even imagine what it would be at this point, because I am not a fellow sex pervert. Josh's parents didn't effectively confront his issues when he was a teenage molester, or a twenty-something philanderer, so unfortunately there's no reason to believe they'd start now.

Actually the clinical definition would fall under Paraphilic Disorders.

[JocelynCavanaugh]

Just now, GeeGolly said:

Actually the clinical definition would fall under Paraphilic Disorders.

It was a joke.

[kokapetl]

None of the other Duggar children inherited "juvenile bad touch disorder" or assholism, so I'm going to say it wasn't an inherent thing that Josh was born with. 

Edited September 16, 2017 by Kokapetl