Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[Ohiopirate02]

24 minutes ago, merylinkid said:

I am all for Head Idiot wasting money on his Pyrite Child.   BUT, what about the prisoners whose families cannot afford this extortion?     

 

The official response is usually something along the lines of "well, we do offer free calls if the family goes to XYZ location."  In reality said location is not convenient for many families of incarcerated persons.  I know many grassroots organizations have sprouted up to help the families get to those locations or pre-pandemic to the jails/prisons for visiting days.  

 

16 minutes ago, SusannahM said:

I had this thought with regard to the above post about lack of actual books so they can make people pay to read on a kindle.  That's just wrong IMO.  I am not saying prisoners should be living the Life of Riley but honestly not even being able to access books without having to pay a fee every time they want to read something seems like cruel and unusual punishment to me.

There has been a lot of pushback over prisons using ebooks over physical books.  As of now, that system is not widely used throughout the States because it is so bad.  The fees are outrageous and it's an obvious kickback scenario.  There are few justifications for using it.  Prison libraries already have rules in place limiting the titles allowed in them as well as rules pertaining to what types of books--paperback with glued bindings only, etc.  I really do not see this practice catching on nationwide.  Most of the places where this is happening will most likely discontinue the service as soon as the companies who provide stop giving money to politicians re-election campaigns.  The business model is not sustainable--the fees are too high for the vast majority of prisoners so they will not use it.  

[Tikichick]

14 hours ago, Gemma Violet said:

If it's considered "public information," the jail has no choice but to provide a copy of it.  I used to work for county government and the law was that, when a member of the public made the request in writing for any material considered public information, we had to provide the information within three days.  So, if prison/jail visitor logs are considered "public information," the jail has no choice but to provide copies of them to whoever asks.  Usually, the recipient has to pay for the copying costs (so much per page).

ETA:  We sometimes had requests for things like copies of all emails between Employee #1 and Employee #2 over the past five years, or copies of all emails between the Administrator and the Public Works Department regarding 112th Street for the past ten years, or a list of the salaries of each position in the Executive Department, etc.  Some of these things were due to possible upcoming lawsuits, but not always.  We used to pull our hair when we'd get requests like that because it took so much time away from our regular work.

Freedom of Information Act -- aka a FOIA request.

[Tikichick]

14 hours ago, spacefly said:

I do wonder how Josh will deal for the long haul. I was listening to a podcast the other day and the gentleman being interviewed seemed to know Jeffrey Epstein well enough to comment on his death and how he handled the discomforts of prison. He thoroughly believes that JE caused his own death because JE could not deal with life in prison. He mentioned that JE needed air temperature, food, bedding, towels etc. to be very specific and he would flip if they weren't up to his expectations. As he put it JE "was soft". This man also mentioned that GM will be fine as she is a lot harder/tougher. I do wonder which side Josh will fall on and how he will handle it.

 

10 hours ago, Zella said:

I personally doubt Josh misses his family in jail, and I've long thought he wasn't happy with his life. On that point, I'm sure jail doesn't work on him like a normal person. But I don't think he likes not having control over his life, and I think a lifetime of being treated like the family's golden boy (by a family who was very proud of its holier than thou reputation) has given him an exalted opinion of himself that does not like being treated like scum of the earth.

It's one thing for your dad to put you up in some half-ass used car business where you can pretend to work while you hide from your family and spend your days watching porn and stuffing your face with fast food. It's quite another to spend years hanging out in a cell, having your days monitored by people who think you're a heinous piece of shit and having minimal say about even basic tasks. 

IDK that JE's standards necessarily pointed to him being soft in the ordinary sense.   IMO it points to an individual with extreme need for control -- the very same compulsion I'd imagine will be a supreme struggle for one Josh Duggar.    It would also explain why GM wouldn't find the same challenge in the same way -- although I'd imagine having grown up as wealthy and privileged as she has it will challenge her nonetheless. 

[Fallacy]

6 hours ago, lilwhitelion said:

Each call is counted as a visit.  So, 19 calls by Anna, one by John Pakula.  They are video chats, from home (?) since she has to pay.  If she went to the jail, it would be free, I think.  

Dates are 12/12, one for 6:13 min; 12/13, one for 16:00 min; 12/19, one for 12:12 min; 12/21, 3 different calls for 42:34 min total; 12/22, two calls for 28:23 min total; 12/23, two calls for 48:48 min total; 12/24, 5 different calls for 47:31 min total; 12/25, one call for 26:42 min; 12/27, 3 calls for 58:37 min total.

I want to know why inmates’ phone/video visit records are made available to the public if requested. I mean forget Anna and Josh for a second. Why should some random person on the internet be able to access those records? That seems so invasive to me. 

[GeeGolly]

Something about the visitation log seems off to me. How many prisoners does this jail house? I just can't imagine the jail staff are able to accommodate inmates having having multiple visits a day, whether by phone, internet or in person. And I thought most jails/prisons have set visitor days, with visitors signing up in advance.

I'm not doubting Balls has the records, but I am wondering if the records are being understood correctly.

[libgirl2]

1 hour ago, merylinkid said:

A LOT.   Third party communication with jails is BIG BUSINESS.   You think data overage fees are high on your cellphone?   Nothing compared to what the prisons are.   According to this website, a 15 minute phone call costs $4.80.   

https://www.prisonphonejustice.org/

And that's the phone call.   I am sure video is more expensive.

The latest prison moneymaking scheme is that prisoners are not allowed actual books.   They can have Kindles and get ebooks.   With a HUGE markup on using the Kindle, of course.   Like per minute fees.   Because a physical book can only be charged to a prisoner once.   The prisoner can reread it multiple times for free.   A Kindle, they can be charged constantly.

I am an Interlibrary Loan assistant at a local library and we have sent books out to correctional facilities. Thinking about it, the numbers have dropped quite a bit the last few years. 

[Tikichick]

38 minutes ago, Fallacy said:

I want to know why inmates’ phone/video visit records are made available to the public if requested. I mean forget Anna and Josh for a second. Why should some random person on the internet be able to access those records? That seems so invasive to me. 

I'd imagine that on balance it's been determined that convicted felons' rights to privacy aren't superior to taxpayers' rights to information about how the government spends their tax dollars.   The same access to information doesn't stretch to stepping over HIPAA protections.  Those remain in place, felons or not.

 

[Almost 3000]

1 hour ago, SusannahM said:

I had this thought with regard to the above post about lack of actual books so they can make people pay to read on a kindle.  That's just wrong IMO.  I am not saying prisoners should be living the Life of Riley but honestly not even being able to access books without having to pay a fee every time they want to read something seems like cruel and unusual punishment to me.

I assume most prisons have a library. I volunteer at my local library's friends group and work with our county corrections to give them books we don't sell. They take pocket paperback and trade size only no hardback. For a long time they took magazines but something must have happened and they no longer take them. We gave them hundreds per year and other friends groups in the county gave too so they had thousands of books.

[Minivanessa]

1 hour ago, Tikichick said:

Freedom of Information Act -- aka a FOIA request.

Yep, but I thought I'd mention this legal point. There's a federal Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) which applies ONLY to federal agencies. Each state has its own legislation, and those are more commonly called and "open records act" or "public records act."

If one wanted to see records of the jail where the Family Felon is currently being detained, that request would be governed by the Arkansas state law on access to open/public records. I used to work in state and local government so I got used to having to point people to the right law (our state law) if they were spouting quotations from the federal FOIA - which didn't apply to us. 

[dariafan]

Or when he gets out offering Anna suggestions since her food is So beige 

[Quilt Fairy]

15 minutes ago, Jeeves said:

If one wanted to see records of the jail where the Family Felon is currently being detained, that request would be governed by the Arkansas state law on access to open/public records. I used to work in state and local government so I got used to having to point people to the right law (our state law) if they were spouting quotations from the federal FOIA - which didn't apply to us. 

Also, even using a state process, I find it hard to believe that she's already got records dated as recently as 12/27.  I doubt someone in the jail was thinking "Yeah, I'm gonna jump right on that" in the middle of a holiday week with potentially lower levels of staffing.  In fact, many of the purely administrative staff may be on vacation this week. 

The interesting thing is, if you go to the jail's website, there are many records freely and easily available on-line.  But nothing like what what's-her-name says she has. 

[Gemma Violet]

If you want to see the print-out of the visitation list, WOACB has put it on her FB.

[emmawoodhouse]

I went to KJ's IG and found the records.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CYDaS72Mn42/?utm_medium=copy_link

[Ohiopirate02]

50 minutes ago, emmawoodhouse said:

I went to KJ's IG and found the records.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CYDaS72Mn42/?utm_medium=copy_link

The fact that she felt the need to watermark publicly available information is cracking me up.  

[GeeGolly]

Interesting, Josh wasn't put in his current cell until the 22nd and the calls totaled roughly around $50.00. It looks more like 9 visits on 9 days, with interruptions in some of the visits.

[Zella]

I'm fascinated by the non-Anna person Josh hung up on less than a minute into the call. 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[GeeGolly]

44 minutes ago, Zella said:

I'm fascinated by the non-Anna person Josh hung up on less than a minute into the call. 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

It was probably Miss Balls, using a fake name. 😁

[emmawoodhouse]

45 minutes ago, Zella said:

I'm fascinated by the non-Anna person Josh hung up on less than a minute into the call. 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

Maybe it was a pastor? Do we know the name of the pastor at Gospel Light,?

[ginger90]

2 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

Interesting, Josh wasn't put in his current cell until the 22nd and the calls totaled roughly around $50.00. It looks more like 9 visits on 9 days, with interruptions in some of the visits.

I think that’s  where he was escorted to for the calls, not necessarily where he’s housed. One was in booking, long after he would have been there.

Edited December 29, 2021 by ginger90

[FizzyPuff]

56 minutes ago, Zella said:

I'm fascinated by the non-Anna person Josh hung up on less than a minute into the call. 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

Perhaps it was someone who called and got the wrong number? 

[Jeanne222]

Since I watch Love After Lockup I’m pretty knowledgeable about prison stuff!!!

Lots of money sent to the commissary account means good eating for the inmate. 

They have a ‘library on wheels’ with books to choose from. 

Most important those phone calls between Josh and Anna are monitored and recorded. 

Can hardly wait for WOCB lady to get those transcripts!

[Zella]

My guess was the dude who called was a nosy rubbernecker who wanted to see what would happen. 

[Madtown]

Anna is a delusional idiot. I wouldn't spend one second or one penny talking to that pile fo pig shit. Then again, I don't drink the Kool-Aid.

I wonder if JB is telling her it is her "duty" to call him often and he'll pay for it. Fucking morons.

[Jeanne222]

Doesn’t Anna have seven young children and babies to take care of?

She seems to have a lot of time for sex pest!

Who’s watching the kids??? 

[Gemma Violet]

I wonder if the reason Anna is the only family member who has contacted him is because she is the only one who believes he is innocent, or is it because JB only wants to pay for one person to call and she is chosen because she's the wife.  But it's strange that even if only one or two siblings still support Josh, you'd think those one or two would pay a couple bucks to make a short call. Or has JB put out the word that only Anna will call and therefore they obey?  Or maybe they figured the call list would become public and they didn't want their names attached.  It's just strange that not even JB and Michelle have called, or Jed, who supposedly still supports him.

Edited December 30, 2021 by Gemma Violet

[coconspirator]

13 minutes ago, Gemma Violet said:

I wonder if the reason Anna is the only family member who has contacted him is because she is the only one who believes he is innocent, or is it because JB only wants to pay for one person to call and she is chosen because she's the wife.  But it's strange that even if only one or two siblings still support Josh, you'd think those one or two would pay a couple bucks to make a short call. Or has JB put out the word that only Anna will call and therefore they obey?  Or maybe they figured the call list would become public and they didn't want their names attached.  It's just strange that not even JB and Michelle have called, or Jed, who supposedly still supports him.

It's possible JB or Michelle are in the room when she does her video calls with Josh. Her name is the one that is logged because it's her account. She may also have two calls a day to allow the older kids to be part of one of them. 

[EVS]

I remember reading, either up thread or on Reddit, that the number of adults and children allowed even on video calls is limited. If those records are accurate, maybe it takes 2 calls each time for all 5 of the oldest kids to be able to talk to their dad?

Eta: looks like coconspirator posted the same thought about the kids while I was typing. I also wondered if other Duggar adults joined Anna’s calls so they could talk to Josh anonymously. 

Edited December 30, 2021 by EVS

[LilJen]

12 hours ago, louannems said:

Now I want to know how much money Anna wasted visiting the detainee.

How much is Boob willing to spend ?

[emmawoodhouse]

Anna seems desperate. You have to wonder if she thinks she will lose him. 

No great loss as far as we're concerned, but she made that loser her world. 

[SMama]

1 hour ago, Zella said:

My guess was the dude who called was a nosy rubbernecker who wanted to see what would happen. 

Or a reporter? Most likely a rubbernecker though. 

[Gemma Violet]

38 minutes ago, coconspirator said:

It's possible JB or Michelle are in the room when she does her video calls with Josh. Her name is the one that is logged because it's her account. She may also have two calls a day to allow the older kids to be part of one of them. 

I read somewhere that only the person whose name is on the log can be on the call.  [Of course, as you said, presumably someone could be in (another part of) the room listening in.]  But if anyone besides Anna is on camera or speaks to the inmate, I think the permissions can be revoked.

ETA:  WOACB says two adults can be in on the call.

Edited December 30, 2021 by Gemma Violet

[CalicoKitty]

2 hours ago, Jeanne222 said:

Since I watch Love After Lockup I’m pretty knowledgeable about prison stuff!!!

Lots of money sent to the commissary account means good eating for the inmate. 

They have a ‘library on wheels’ with books to choose from. 

Most important those phone calls between Josh and Anna are monitored and recorded. 

Can hardly wait for WOCB lady to get those transcripts!

I have a librarian friend who took a part-time job pushing the book cart at the county jail.  She said it was very scary, even with a guard with her.  She said the noise and cat calls when she came onto the unit were horrible.  She quit after she got ejaculate on her pant leg through the bars of a cell.  As much as she believes in reading, she decided there were easier ways of earning extra money.  This was county jail, not a federal prison.  I don't picture Josh as being a big reader or a deep thinker.  I'm guessing, based on the quality of his "education", that his reading level is not too high.

1 hour ago, Jeanne222 said:

Doesn’t Anna have seven young children and babies to take care of?

She seems to have a lot of time for sex pest!

Who’s watching the kids??? 

The kids don't matter as much as her husband.  The headship comes first in their marriage.

[Quilt Fairy]

3 hours ago, Jeanne222 said:

Most important those phone calls between Josh and Anna are monitored and recorded. 

Can hardly wait for WOCB lady to get those transcripts!

I think we've reached the point where this feels like stalking to me.   

[YupItsMe]

If they convinced themselves that Josh wouldn’t be convicted, Anna may really need to talk to him. She may be having to deal with financial, legal and medical things that she needs to consult him on.

I really hope, though, that she’s using the time to ream him out.

ETA: If I read it correctly there was a 6 day span where she didn’t call. (?)

Edited December 30, 2021 by YupItsMe

[JoanArc]

4 hours ago, Zella said:

I'm fascinated by the non-Anna person Josh hung up on less than a minute into the call. 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

 Jill reading her Instagram feed aloud. 

[Zella]

12 minutes ago, YupItsMe said:

 

I really hope, though, that she’s using the time to ream him out.

 

There's no way he is sitting there and taking her tearing him a new asshole every day, for up to an hour, even if she was inclined to do so. 

[CalicoKitty]

I really doubt that Anna has any independence on any legal, medical or financial decisions.  I don't think that is in her job description.  Her "headship" takes care of everything.  With Josh "away", that would make JB her headship with control over her life.  From what I understand, wives are subject to their headship in all things.  My guess that all these phone calls are filled with Josh telling her how unfair the judgement is and that he did not do anything wrong.

[NotthebadVictoria]

22 minutes ago, Quilt Fairy said:

I think we've reached the point where this feels like stalking to me.   

I’m like 99% sure that’s WOACB’s whole schtick, all she does is stalk and harass people.

Edited December 30, 2021 by NotthebadVictoria

[merylinkid]

Anna is calling so much for the same reason she was over at the Rebers constantly.   Serving Josh is all she knows.   As long as she has unlimited funds to call him, she is going to.   

The others aren't calling because they are mad the Pyrite Child ruined everything for them.   Even Ma and Pa Idiot know their brand is ruined forever.   Who is going to give them MOTY awards and listen to them as the ONLY RIGHT WAY to live.   The kids wouldn't even think of calling because it would involve empathy.   As someone noted in one of the threads, this family has ZERO empathy.   So thinking of helping their brother through a rough time would literally not cross their minds.   

[Zella]

I don't think I'm devoid of empathy, but if Josh were my brother, I wouldn't be terribly interested in helping him through the rough time he's created for himself. 

[Absolom]

I wouldn't call him because I'd be afraid that all do is either rail at him for what he'd done or be unsympathetic (joyful) that he'd gotten caught and found guilty.  

[GeeGolly]

I would guess any siblings who have talked with Anna tell her to tell Josh they're praying for him. It doesn't seem any of the 19 interact much outside of the TTH gatherings, in everyday life, so I can't imagine them lining up to talk to Josh now. Maybe the ones who support him more than with prayer (if any do) will visit with him once he's in prison.

 

[CalicoKitty]

Did Josh have a close relationship with any of his siblings?  I always got the feeling that that he felt sort of superior to the others.  He always seemed to have that smug attitude, and did seem to get special attention from his parents.  I just wonder how much support he will get from the others.  It will be interesting to see who, if any, of the others will visit because they want to, not because he is "their brother" or are told to.

[Zella]

58 minutes ago, Absolom said:

I wouldn't call him because I'd be afraid that all do is either rail at him for what he'd done or be unsympathetic (joyful) that he'd gotten caught and found guilty.  

I'd have a hard time not repeating the greatest hits from the trial back to him. 

"Has someone been downloading child porn?"

"I'm not going to allow that. Are you going to allow that?"

"I'm too dumb to use the internet because I was homeschooled by Michelle and Jim Bob Duggar!" 

[ginger90]

8 hours ago, Gemma Violet said:

ETA:  WOACB says two adults can be in on the call.

Children under 18 can be, with parental permission, from what I read on the detention center site.

[Minivanessa]

And I believe all the calls (video or not) are monitored. Probably recorded. 

After he's sentenced, the Family Felon will of course be taken to a federal prison. I found some information online from the federal Bureau of Prisons. I didn't dig into the info, but it seems there will be limits on opportunities for Anna to have video or phone calls with her [At Least I Have A] Husband.™ And, as has been mentioned in this discussion, there are no conjugal visits for inmates in the federal Bureau of Prisons.

The page with information on how COVID-19 affects inmate visitation and transport - https://www.bop.gov/coronavirus/covid19_status.jsp - was last updated more than a year ago, but I suspect some if not all those measures are still in place.  For legal geeks, I found a page in the Federal Register for an emergency rule adopted by the BOP in June 2020, allowing prisoners free-of-charge video visits, because the pandemic ruled out in person visits. I don't know the status of that at this time.

Overview of prisoners' communication with outsiders: https://www.bop.gov/inmates/communications.jsp

Overview of in person visits: https://www.bop.gov/inmates/visiting.jsp

COVID-19 Main Page: https://www.bop.gov/coronavirus/index.jsp and operational guide: https://www.bop.gov/coronavirus/covid19_modified_operations_guide.jsp

[iwantcookies]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-10347671/Josh-Duggar-spent-Christmas-small-cell-eating-turkey-carrots-mashed-potatoes.html
 

probably tasted like home made to him 

[Tikichick]

16 hours ago, Jeanne222 said:

Since I watch Love After Lockup I’m pretty knowledgeable about prison stuff!!!

Lots of money sent to the commissary account means good eating for the inmate. 

They have a ‘library on wheels’ with books to choose from. 

Most important those phone calls between Josh and Anna are monitored and recorded. 

Can hardly wait for WOCB lady to get those transcripts!

All court hearings aren't even transcribed because it would be time and cost prohibitive, let alone all inmate phone calls.   It can and is done sometimes, usually because something being discussed is being brought before a judge, but those instances are incredibly limited.

[Minivanessa]

6 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

All court hearings aren't even transcribed because it would be time and cost prohibitive, let alone all inmate phone calls.   It can and is done sometimes, usually because something being discussed is being brought before a judge, but those instances are incredibly limited.

Also, I doubt that the recordings (or transcripts if any) of detainee phone calls would be considered public records. There are many types of records maintained by public agencies that are not available for public inspection, including active law enforcement investigation files, records containing sensitive information about individuals and businesses, etc. The recordings are there if needed for jail operations or investigations of crimes, for use of the public agencies involved, but I'd be surprised if the content of the conversations would be available for public inspection.

[Ohiopirate02]

9 minutes ago, Jeeves said:

Also, I doubt that the recordings (or transcripts if any) of detainee phone calls would be considered public records. There are many types of records maintained by public agencies that are not available for public inspection, including active law enforcement investigation files, records containing sensitive information about individuals and businesses, etc. The recordings are there if needed for jail operations or investigations of crimes, for use of the public agencies involved, but I'd be surprised if the content of the conversations would be available for public inspection.

I agree.  Visitor logs are one thing, but the actual content of the visits is a step too far.  There really is no pressing reason for the public to know what is said between a prisoner and his/her minor children.  Prisoners still have rights like attorney-client privilege and the seal of the confessional.