Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[Ohiopirate02]

2 minutes ago, Nysha said:

I think Anna's naiveite depends on Josh's sexual preferences. Remember, she's not allowed to tell him 'no'.

Josh forcing Anna to perform fellatio is in the realm of possibility, but I do think he has a very strict madonna/whore mindset.  I remember when the Ashley Madison stuff hit, Josh seemed to be looking for someone to fulfill desires that either Anna would not do or that Josh was too afraid to ask of her.  It's not like either one of them has enough knowledge of the world to know that people in healthy sexual relationships do more than just missionary without shame.  

[RedDelicious]

It pisses me off that the producers and editors allowed these sick jokes of Josh's to make it to tv. It's disgusting. It's not like Fast Times at Ridgemont High and the freaking carrots. It's completely ignorant and naïve fundy girls as the butt of cruel jokes on national television. As if being in their situation wasn't already humiliating enough. They (the producers and editors) knew exactly what they were doing, even if Anna and the Duggar sisters of the banana eating contest did not, and Josh played dumb. 

[Zella]

There was also the swallowing joke he made in the doctor's office with Anna when she was pregnant. She looked really uncomfortable, but I couldn't tell if it was because she understood the joke or didn't. Either way, she didn't find it funny, and I think that's exactly why he made it.  

[Quilt Fairy]

In the DuggarsSnark subreddit, there is a new AMA with a state prosecutor who has dealt with a lot of CSAM cases.  It's quite interesting. 

[Scarlett45]

5 hours ago, Zella said:

There was also the swallowing joke he made in the doctor's office with Anna when she was pregnant. She looked really uncomfortable, but I couldn't tell if it was because she understood the joke or didn't. Either way, she didn't find it funny, and I think that's exactly why he made it.  

Josh is a creep. He was always so disrespectful to Anna and any woman he came across besides maybe Michelle. I remember the episode where he and the older girls drive to FL to prepare for the wedding, and his creepy inappropriate jokes about incest/people who live in Arkansas. He said stuff like that just to creep people out, with no concern how it would make Anna or his sisters feel. 
 

Knowing what we know now are we surprised?

[Tigregirl]

13 hours ago, SMama said:

Why does it matter that the cousin’s son is adopted. This is a big pet peeve. The source is the cousin’s son would suffice. SGirl is our daughter, not our adopted daughter. Who knows, maybe his father has talked to him about it. 

I was just about to post the same.  There was no reason for that article to mention he was adopted.  My child is my child, not my adopted child.  She is no less a member of our extended family than any child in our family.  That stuff just makes me so mad.  Your child is your child, whether through birth or adoption.

[BitterApple]

39 minutes ago, Quilt Fairy said:

In the DuggarsSnark subreddit, there is a new AMA with a state prosecutor who has dealt with a lot of CSAM cases.  It's quite interesting. 

Thank you for letting us know. I just looked at it, and it's a great read. 

Assuming Josh gets convicted, where do you guys think this leaves him in terms of his family? Let's say he does five years in jail. When he gets out, does he go back to the warehouse? Back to a Boob- approved job? Will his brothers agree to work with him? Or will Boob shuffle Josh, Anna and the M's off to some remote property and give them a monthly allowance? I can't envision a scenario where Josh's siblings welcome him back to the fold. I know they're brainwashed weirdos, but they can't be that far gone, can they?

[Tigregirl]

2 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

Thank you for letting us know. I just looked at it, and it's a great read. 

Assuming Josh gets convicted, where do you guys think this leaves him in terms of his family? Let's say he does five years in jail. When he gets out, does he go back to the warehouse? Back to a Boob- approved job? Will his brothers agree to work with him? Or will Boob shuffle Josh, Anna and the M's off to some remote property and give them a monthly allowance? I can't envision a scenario where Josh's siblings welcome him back to the fold. I know they're brainwashed weirdos, but they can't be that far gone, can they?

If he is convicted, will he be able to have unsupervised time with minors when he’s released?  Say he gets out in 5-6 years.  He will still have minor children.  I’m guessing his terms of release will include restrictions on his access to children.  Will he have to register as a sex offender?

[emmawoodhouse]

11 minutes ago, Tigregirl said:

If he is convicted, will he be able to have unsupervised time with minors when he’s released?  Say he gets out in 5-6 years.  He will still have minor children.  I’m guessing his terms of release will include restrictions on his access to children.  Will he have to register as a sex offender?

He'll definitely have to register as a sex offender. As for access to his minor children, that will be up to the judge. 

Edited October 5, 2021 by emmawoodhouse

[GeeGolly]

Two sad take-aways from the Reddit dude. One surprising, one not so much. Josh may only get 24 months and many, if not most, family members stand by the accused until the proof is actually brought out.

[Heathen]

On 10/5/2021 at 12:32 AM, GeeGolly said:

Two sad take-aways from the Reddit dude. One surprising, one not so much. Josh may only get 24 months and many, if not most, family members stand by the accused until the proof is actually brought out.

I can't really blame anybody for that. It's got to be earth-shaking to find out that your child/sibling/husband/whatever gets off on abusing little children. 

Ted Bundy's mother could not believe her son was a child-raping, necrophiliac murderer even after he admitted it. Denial is a powerful force -- I'm sure the Duggars have their share of denial going around. 

Edited October 11, 2021 by Heathen
Mixed my metaphors

[Zella]

17 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

Josh may only get 24 months

As insightful as the AMA was--it really was--I took that specific statement with a massive grain of salt because that person was a state prosecutor, not federal. I'm sure that is what Josh would likely get if he was tried in a state court, but federal minimums for what Josh is charged with is 5 years.

I'm assuming the AMA person's experience was what they were going off of, but it wouldn't actually be applicable to Josh's federal case. As has been linked here several times, people being tried before that federal judge with similar charges to Josh are getting several years, not two.

So, I am still pretty confident he will get at least a few years if found guilty (and possibly even more because his case includes several of the enhancements that will lead to more time, though I'm not going to name them because they're honestly pretty triggering to read about). 

Obligatory disclaimer: I got my law degree from watching The Good Wife. 

[emmawoodhouse]

IIRC, the YouTube lawyer who had the actual chart of enhancements noted that Smuggar would likely get between 7-9 years. Where he falls will depend on how lenient or strict the judge is. 

Edited October 5, 2021 by emmawoodhouse
Autocorrect strikes again!

[MsJamieDornan]

32 minutes ago, emmawoodhouse said:

IIRC, the YouTube lawyer who had the actual chart of enhancements noted that Smuggar would likely get between 7-9 years. Where he falls will depend on how lenient or strict the judge is. 

Yes, thats the one I watched. It was very informative. Didn't he say that the absolute minimum was 8 years?? I am hoping for at least that much. He is a criminal defense attorney and he never mentioned anything like 24 months. As emmawoodhouse mentioned he had a chart the feds go by.

Edited October 5, 2021 by MsJamieDornan

[ginger90]

I guess it will depend on if he takes a plea. He could have some charges dropped in that case.

[Churchhoney]

5 hours ago, MsJamieDornan said:

Yes, thats the one I watched. It was very informative. Didn't he say that the absolute minimum was 8 years?? I am hoping for at least that much. He is a criminal defense attorney and he never mentioned anything like 24 months. As emmawoodhouse mentioned he had a chart the feds go by.

I think if you plead guilty, the minimum can be about 6 (the sentencing guidelines are in months rather than years) if you have absolutely nothing that makes the judge think you oughta get a little more. (The main thing that raises the sentence is having any criminal record at all, of any kind. Josh doesn't.)

I wonder if they've convinced Josh of how much he has to lose if he decides to go to trial or whether he's going la la la la la I can't hear you. 

Edited October 5, 2021 by Churchhoney

[Scarlett45]

10 hours ago, BitterApple said:

Thank you for letting us know. I just looked at it, and it's a great read. 

Assuming Josh gets convicted, where do you guys think this leaves him in terms of his family? Let's say he does five years in jail. When he gets out, does he go back to the warehouse? Back to a Boob- approved job? Will his brothers agree to work with him? Or will Boob shuffle Josh, Anna and the M's off to some remote property and give them a monthly allowance? I can't envision a scenario where Josh's siblings welcome him back to the fold. I know they're brainwashed weirdos, but they can't be that far gone, can they?

If Josh is convicted, I see his relationships with family members being similar to how they are now- with those that can’t stand Josh having more definitive reasons not to be around him.
 

For those that cannot stand Josh, they may put up the firm stance “we won’t be around if Josh is there” (and they won’t be)- group 1, other siblings will take the stance of “we don’t want our kids to be alone with Josh or be close to him emotionally, but large group functions are fine.”- group 2, “he is our brother and we love him no matter what”- group 3. 
 

How this will break down exactly among the siblings I’m not sure, but I am guessing Jana, JD, Joseph, Jill, Joy and Jinger will end up in group 1; Jessa, Josiah I can see following in group 2; and I think group 3 will probably consist of the younger kids who don’t have many memories of living with Josh but are super close to the M kids. 
 

I can see JB giving Josh a job in his businesses working under whatever brother is in charge. I do think JB will financially support the M-kids as long as they are minors. When the last M kid is 18, I see Anna taking over elder care for JB/Michelle if they need it with Jana stating she did her duty with the little kids and she is done. 

[GeeGolly]

If the judge allows Josh to be around minors other than his children upon his release, I can see all the Duggars welcoming him back into the fold. I think they'll rationalize that if the judge deems Josh is safe, then Josh is safe. That's not to say, they won't protect their kids and set boundaries. Boundaries that maybe Josh is in on, or boundaries they set on the sly.

I don't think any of the siblings will be inviting Josh over, or going on a road trip with him and his family, but they'll still attend family functions with him there.

If the judge does not allow Josh around children other than his own, then it won't matter. Josh will have to stay away from the TTH.

I wonder if any brother will work with him after all this. I would think someone would be wise enough to stay away from Josh if he's anywhere near a computer or phone.

Speaking of computers and phones, can the judge order Josh not to own or access internet devices for the duration of his parole?

[Minivanessa]

12 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

If the judge allows Josh to be around minors other than his children upon his release, . . .

Speaking of computers and phones, can the judge order Josh not to own or access internet devices for the duration of his parole?

Parole was abolished in the federal criminal/prison system in 1987. As this article notes, some remnants of it remain, but none would appear to apply to Josh.

He would be required, by the nature of the crime, to register as a sex offender, but that's not the same thing as being on parole. (Additional info here: https://bit.ly/3muOGfF)  He could be prosecuted under those registration laws if he fails to register and keep his registration current, but AFAIK he won't have a parole officer or court to report his ongoing activities to. The sex offender registration requirement is imposed by federal and state statutes; it wouldn't be imposed by a court order since it's already a law on the books. 

If I've missed something here I hope those who are familiar with the way persons convicted of possession of CSAM are handled in the federal system, will enlighten us. I appreciate all the light you've shed on this to date.

ETA: See below. @On the Bias has explained that there is no federal parole, BUT there's something in the federal system called "supervised release" now, which is likely to apply to Josh.  So it looks like he wouldn't walk out of prison without having to answer to anyone in the federal court/prison system. Good to know!

Edited October 6, 2021 by Jeeves

[Scarlett45]

Please keep the thread on topic. The majority of your post should be centered on Josh, Anna & their family. 
 

If the primary focus of your post are other Duggar family members or social topics the post is better suited to another thread/Small Talk. 

[On the Bias]

7 hours ago, Jeeves said:

I'm not sure that a federal court could impose conditions on Josh's release from federal prison after he's done his time there. As noted, there's no parole. He's done his time and that's that.

If I've missed something here I hope those who are familiar with the way persons convicted of possession of CSAM are handled in the federal system, will enlighten us. I appreciate all the light you've shed on this to date.

You’re right that there’s no parole in the federal system, but something did replace it:  supervised release.  Supervised release begins when a person leaves federal custody.  The judge sets the s/r term and the s/r conditions at the time of sentencing. 

 

I haven’t practiced in several years now and don’t remember what the minimum s/r term for Josh’s presumptive offenses would be.  Two years?  Five years?  In the district where I practiced, people convicted in child pornography cases generally had possessed far more images than have been reported in Josh’s case, and many were placed on s/r for ten years or even life.  

 

As for the s/r conditions, some are required by statute, some are recommended by the U.S. Sentencing Guidelines, and some may be recommended by the probation officer who prepares the presentence report.   The conditions are supposed to protect the public and help the person to rehabilitate himself, and they are required, in theory at least, to be the least restrictive conditions possible to serve those purposes.

 

If Josh is convicted, once he is released from custody he will have to report periodically to his probation officer, who will supervise his compliance with the s/r conditions.  If he fails to comply, the judge may extend his s/r term up to the statutory maximum and may send him back to prison, although as far as I remember the maximum for an s/r violation isn’t very much compared to the prison term for the underlying crime.  (Two years?  Whatever it is, I’m sure it doesn’t feel trivial to the person serving that sentence.)  In addition, the judge may modify the existing s/r conditions or impose new ones.  On the other hand, if Josh behaves well on supervised release, the probation officer, the prosecution or the defense may ask the judge to loosen some of the more onerous conditions or reduce the s/r term.  

[Quilt Fairy]

@On the Bias, can you tell us what some of the conditions might be in a case like Josh's?

[Minivanessa]

@On the Bias, thanks for clarifying the supervised release system. I knew there wasn't "parole" in the federal system, but TBH didn't really have time this morning to do more than confirm that was true. I thought there might be something in place that wasn't parole, but didn't know what. I appreciate your taking the time to explain the situation. 

[On the Bias]

7 hours ago, Jeeves said:

 

@On the Bias, thanks for clarifying the supervised release system. I knew there wasn't "parole" in the federal system, but TBH didn't really have time this morning to do more than confirm that was true. I thought there might be something in place that wasn't parole, but didn't know what. I appreciate your taking the time to explain the situation. 

 

My pleasure!  I seem to remember from your past posts that you’re also a lawyer or have a background in the law?  If so, then of course you know that we all have our specialties.  (I wouldn’t be able to draft a contract to save my life lol.)

[On the Bias]

11 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

 

@On the Bias, can you tell us what some of the conditions might be in a case like Josh's?

 

Conditions will vary based on the circumstances, but in a child pornography case they might include restrictions on where the person can work (for example, not in a business that mostly serves children, like a video arcade), or on computer use.  There might be a fine to be paid to children in the images whose identity is known; if so, the payment plan would be part of the conditions.  If I’m remembering right, registration as a sex offender is required by statute.  But as I said, it’s been a while for me, and I might not be remembering any of this very accurately!  And of course the statutes and guidelines may have been amended since I last looked at them.  And I don’t know what’s typical in the district where Josh has been charged.  And obviously it’s conceivable that Josh won’t be convicted, in which case supervised release would be a moot issue.  

[ozziemom]

Does Josh have to wear an ankle bracelet right now? That is another condition that sometimes is used after release. One of my neighbors is on the sex offender list and even though he is 88 years old, he still has to wear one for life. But this is Florida so could be completely different in Arkansas.

[farmgal4]

On 10/4/2021 at 4:14 PM, Zella said:

There was also the swallowing joke he made in the doctor's office with Anna when she was pregnant. She looked really uncomfortable, but I couldn't tell if it was because she understood the joke or didn't. Either way, she didn't find it funny, and I think that's exactly why he made it.  

Swallowing joke?  Can you please elaborate?

[GeeGolly]

Lets say Josh is convicted and gets out in 5 years. What's in his sick head? Its seems likely the only access he'll have to sex will be Anna (if she sticks around). Will she become his next victim? Will he act out his sexual urges with her? Or will he eventually break the law again and end up back in prison for a long time?

[Zella]

3 hours ago, farmgal4 said:

Swallowing joke?  Can you please elaborate?

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=954204355120690

If you cant see the video, she's saying she has a hard time swallowing certain pills while pregnant (assuming due to morning sickness), and ass interrupts to say she's a master swallower. She sort of nervously giggles for a split-second and then just looks sort of confused. I'm not sure she understood, but she also doesn't seem to actually find it funny. 

[farmgal4]

1 minute ago, Zella said:

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=954204355120690

If you cant see the video, she's saying she has a hard time swallowing certain pills while pregnant (assuming due to morning sickness), and ass interrupts to say she's a master swallower. She sort of nervously giggles for a split-second and then just looks sort of confused. I'm not sure she understood, but she also doesn't seem to actually find it funny. 

OMG.  That sick SOB is just like his POS father; everything is about sex.

[Zella]

Just now, farmgal4 said:

OMG.  That sick SOB is just like his POS father; everything is about sex.

Yeah it's really gross to do that to your wife in the middle of her OBGYN appointment. I didn't know it existed until earlier this year when someone on Reddit mentioned it after he was arrested and linked to it. 

[iwantcookies]

On 10/4/2021 at 4:13 PM, Ohiopirate02 said:

I can totally see Anna still being naïve about what Josh was doing even after being married for over a decade.  For her, sex is for procreation only and only includes one position.  It would never occur to Anna that tab A could go anywhere other than slot B.

I shudder to think what Josh does to Anna in the bedroom. I don’t think it’s vanilla s@x at all. 
 

[iwantcookies]

I think Josh will plead guilty and take a shorter sentence. Anna will stick by him like super glue. 

[emmawoodhouse]

5 hours ago, iwantcookies said:

I think Josh will plead guilty and take a shorter sentence. Anna will stick by him like super glue. 

He has until the 18th to plea out. I don't think that will happen. I'm pretty sure he thinks he was corrupted by Satan, thus not responsible for his actions. 

Edited October 6, 2021 by emmawoodhouse

[Nysha]

2 minutes ago, emmawoodhouse said:

He has until the 18th to plea out. I don't think that will happen. I'm pretty sure he thinks he was corrupted by Satan, this not responsible for his actions. 

I was about to say that that is something only the most entitled idiot on the planet would believe and then I remembered we were talking about Sex Pest.

[Quilt Fairy]

9 hours ago, ozziemom said:

Does Josh have to wear an ankle bracelet right now?

Yes.

 

@On the Bias, thanks for the elaboration.  Many of us on this thread got our law degrees from Law & Order University, and our forensics knowledge from CSI Tech.  Or we went out of state to Dateline College. 

[BigBingerBro]

ANNA TO TESTIFY? Josh Duggar ordered to provide alibi and witnesses as child pornography case heads to trial

[emmawoodhouse]

I wish The Sun would let go of the notion that the Rebers live in a spacious mansion. To the contrary, I imagine Maria and Hannah feel quite cramped with Smuggar living there.

[madpsych78]

The selfish part of me wants them to go to trial so that potentially more things could be uncovered about Josh that we don't know now. And, who are witnesses 1, 2, and 3. I want to know if any of them are anyone who is related to Josh either through blood or through marriage, especially the one who was viewing adult pornography.

[quarks]

(blinks)

Uh, The Sun? I know you like scandal and all that, but absolutely nothing in the government's most recent motion suggests that Anna or indeed any other Duggar/Duggarling/Duggar adjacent is going to testify. It's just asking to be told if the defense plans to say that Josh has an alibi, and the names/contact info of the people who might be providing that alibi. Nothing about who or what might provide that alibi.

We don't even know if the defense is going to try to claim that Josh has an alibi. So far they haven't gone that route - they've been mostly trying to argue technical points about the validity of the search warrant and HSA administrators and Josh's right to counsel, along with trying to argue that someone else could have downloaded the CSA and the government has no proof that it was Josh. Not saying that they won't try to make that claim, just that they haven't tried so far. 

1 minute ago, madpsych78 said:

The selfish part of me wants them to go to trial so that potentially more things could be uncovered about Josh that we don't know now. And, who are witnesses 1, 2, and 3. I want to know if any of them are anyone who is related to Josh either through blood or through marriage, especially the one who was viewing adult pornography.

Witness 2, who was in jail during the alleged crime, hasn't been formally identified (though some Reddit users have made what seems to be a pretty good guess). 

I don't know if Witness 2 will be testifying in court.

Witnesses 1 (the adult porn watcher) and 3 (who allegedly lied to police about exactly when he started working at the car lot) have been named, though we don't know which one is Witness 1 and which one is Witness 3. One of them, Matthew Waller, may be the brother of David Waller, Anna's brother-in-law, though no one has confirmed this. The other one doesn't appear to be related to any of the Duggars/Duggarlings. 

I don't know if they will be testifying in court either.

[emmawoodhouse]

Saw the court docs from the Feds. They're asking for proof of alibis: names, addresses, phone numbers of anyone Smuggar wants to bring forward. He has 14 days to produce this evidence, which goes past his date to cop a plea.

The Sun must have had access to the court docs. They got that part right 

Edited October 6, 2021 by emmawoodhouse

[SMama]

8 hours ago, Zella said:

Yeah it's really gross to do that to your wife in the middle of her OBGYN appointment. 

Even more egregious, he knew it would be on TV. Volderjosh is a reprehensible creature. 

[hathorlive]

22 minutes ago, emmawoodhouse said:

Saw the court docs from the Feds. They're asking for proof of alibis: names, addresses, phone numbers of anyone Smuggar wants to bring forward. He has 14 days to produce this evidence, which goes past his date to cop a plea.

The Sun must have had access to the court docs. They got that part right 

Right.  The prosecutors are either sending him a message or feel he is totally going with a fake alibi.  I know JB and Anna would lie for him, but a prosecutor would turn Anna around so fast, she'd likely implicate him.  She would be a gift for the prosecution.  As for any sibling stupid enough to lie for them, they are going to get Josh's bank records and the alibi's records and put together a timeline of who was where when..  then they are going to disect  their social media and overlay that on the time lines.  They will catch you in a lie. None of you are clever enough to out think them.

As for supervised released, it's not going to happen.  It rarely happens for a CP case and it sure as heck won't happen in a CP case where the suspect publicly admitted to molesting 5 victims.

Edited October 7, 2021 by hathorlive

[Quilt Fairy]

I have to admit, I found this motion interesting.  I always thought that Discovery went one way, from Prosecution to the Defense, and that the Defense was allowed to throw in any old Hail Mary they could without advance notice. 

[awaken]

2 hours ago, SMama said:

Even more egregious, he knew it would be on TV. Volderjosh is a reprehensible creature. 

And, TLC included it in the edit and showed it! Just as bad IMO. 

[Quilt Fairy]

A poster on the DuggarsSnark subreddit has listed a dropbox link for the official court transcript from Josh's May 5 bond hearing.  It was quite a revelation after previously only being able to read summaries from others of what they thought was being testified to at the hearing.  

Josh is toast. 

[ozziemom]

As much as the Duggars sometimes called the TLC film crew family, there was a lot in the episodes that seemed like TLC was poking fun at the Duggars. And not in a cute, naive way, but aren’t the Duggars ridiculous.

[3 is enough]

12 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

A poster on the DuggarsSnark subreddit has listed a dropbox link for the official court transcript from Josh's May 5 bond hearing.  It was quite a revelation after previously only being able to read summaries from others of what they thought was being testified to at the hearing.  

Josh is toast. 

Can you give us a brief summary please, if that is possible?

[Nysha]

19 hours ago, hathorlive said:

Right.  The prosecutors are either sending him a message or feel he is totally going with a fake alibi.  I know JB and Anna would lie for him, but a prosecutor would turn Anna around so fast, she'd likely implicate him.  She would be a gift for the prosecution.  As for any sibling stupid enough to lie for them, they are going to get Josh's bank records and the alibi's records and put together a timeline of who was where when..  then they are going to disect  their social media and overlay that on the time lines.  They will catch you in a lie. None of you are clever enough to out think them.

Not only are they too stupid to lie in court, none of them can act their way out of a wet paper bag. 

16 hours ago, awaken said:

And, TLC included it in the edit and showed it! Just as bad IMO. 

I think TLC despise JB, Michelle, and Sex Pest. All of them were constantly shown as a$$holes on the show. And while showing the OB/GYN clip wasn't very nice to Anna, it definitely showed Pest's true character.

[CandyCaneTree]

I think that we should change the name of the fourm to Smuggar counting on a long jail sentence.