Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[Defrauder]

I wouldn't want any Duggar to raise a baby of Josh's.  The baby would be better off without baby-daddy Josh or any of his relatives.  Except maybe Jana - away from the Duggar compound.

[kokapetl]

I have no trouble at all thinking that Josh is a sociopath. Am I diagnosing him a sociopath? No. However I can believe that he is one and not because he likes porn or strippers or having sex on the sly with others but because he can do all of that while preaching about purity and family values. Added with his past I have no problem believing that he is a sociopath. And as such he so humbly confesses after he is caught. I do not think that any type of treatment will ever change him at this age. I believe others who have problems at all different ages are capable of positive change but they were not preaching purity while being the biggest hypocrites ever.

I'm not sure the evidence supports the theory of Josh being a sociopath. I think he probably stopped trying to find sex outside marriage, along with his porn habit, when InTouch exposed him. He also exhibited remorse and guilt/shame when he came crying to JimBob and confessed about the night fondlings. He wasn't caught, he exposed himself voluntarily.

[Oldernowiser]

Yes, but we have only Ma and Pa Duggar's word on how Josh was found out. "He confessed and was so terribly upset" makes a much better story than "we caught him with one hand on his sister and the other in his pants and more than once."

They're fresh out of credibility on this issue.

[Aja]

Yes, but we have only Ma and Pa Duggar's word on how Josh was found out. "He confessed and was so terribly upset" makes a much better story than "we caught him with one hand on his sister and the other in his pants and more than once."

They're fresh out of credibility on this issue.

I know that they played up the whole "Josh came to us and confessed his heart" or whatever, but I'm pretty sure the police report said that, at least in one incident, the upset victim went to Jim Bob and Michelle and told them what happened. I have a really, really hard time believing that Josh immediately went sobbing to his parents all FIVE TIMES (that we know of) it happened.

[HundFan]

The "what to pack" list for Reformat YourInnerNannyWithUs is pure SNL material. I can't stop laughing at the only-for-women plan re handling "excess amounts of clothing ... [which will] be stored in an inaccessible location." First of all, what is an "excess amount of clothing?" Enough hosiery so you don't have to hand-wash your stockings every other day? And does the secret location the seized clothes go to really need to be proclaimed "inaccessible?" Couldn't the forbidden stuff just be "taken away?" Plus, why no comparable rule for men? Aren't "excess" blazers criminally equal to "excess" prairie dresses?

 

I think the rehab Headship logic on this matter goes like this: Those Jezebels already broke the "what not to pack rule," so we know for sure Satan's hiding in their closets. That's why we can't trust them to store the excess clothing in their suitcases under the bed. These women are the sort that'd go looking for their contraband - maybe even train-up as a roving mob. Ya, we better lock that shit up - now.

 

Then I picture a bunch of balding, oily "counselors" lugging a cardboard box full of skirts and panties down the street to the "U-Urself-Store," where they unlock their unit and close the accordion door behind them. Then they take turns sniffing, handling and trying on their haul of ladies' clothes. Just so they can know the enemy, of course. I think that's why the re-homed clothing goes somewhere "inaccessible."

Edited August 27, 2015 by HundFan

[kokapetl]

The earliest incidents, the "sleeping" incidents, Josh fessed up voluntarily, he exposed himself. The last incident, the "lap" incident had the victim expose Josh.

The Duggars are a lot of things, but they're not good or comfortable with lying. They could have successfully covered the whole thing up and lied to the police and said nothing happened, but they didn't, which leads me to believe they told the truth.

[dorcastrilling]

If the porn chick is telling the truth; if it was rough and he was calling her filthy names.....well, that just screams some festering anger towards Michelle to me. He loves his mommy, but deep down he is pissed....Mother's nurture and protect. A good mother would risk life and limb to keep from having that sort of childhood foisted on her children.

Michelle failed him and he is pissed.

[Barb23]

I'm sure like some of you, I'm getting pop up ads for addiction facilities. I just got a new one for finding out about B.E.D. - adult Binge Eating Disorder. Think Joshie knows what this is?

[kokapetl]

I'm sure like some of you, I'm getting pop up ads for addiction facilities. I just got a new one for finding out about B.E.D. - adult Binge Eating Disorder. Think Joshie knows what this is?

I got a bunch of modest swimming dresses ads for a time. I swear I saw a dating website ad on the Duggars very own website, trying to reproduce it I got this:

Edited August 27, 2015 by Kokapetl

[sleekandchic]

I'm still wrapping my head around Josh's choice to have extra-marital sex unprotected. Are the Duggar kids taught about STDs, or is that subject another of their Black Holes of Fear?

Because even if Josh decided he didn't care about his own health, did he not stop to think of Anna's or that of any unborn children?

Josh seems to have been "educating" himself about many things even if his upbringing did leave him in the dark. And the fearless visits to strip clubs, as well as the hoped-for Ashley Madison hookups tell me Josh knew the score about life outside the compound. Unprotected sex is lunacy, and Josh had to know he was playing with fire.

[Cherrio]

I'm not sure the evidence supports the theory of Josh being a sociopath. I think he probably stopped trying to find sex outside marriage, along with his porn habit, when InTouch exposed him. He also exhibited remorse and guilt/shame when he came crying to JimBob and confessed about the night fondlings. He wasn't caught, he exposed himself voluntarily.

We don't know if he ever actually "confessed" anything. We also don't know if he ever felt remorse. All we have is the story told during the Fox interview by the parents.

    I don't believe a word of it.    

[CarolMK]

I'm wondering why do Jim Bob and Michelle feel the need to put out statements about Joshua? He is a grown adult, is he not? In the eyes of the law, whatever he does or doesn't do has nothing to do with his parents. Are they going to continue defending him when he's 47 and they're in their 70's?

[wovenloaf]

The "what to pack" list for Reformat YourInnerNannyWithUs is pure SNL material. I can't stop laughing at the only-for-women plan re handling "excess amounts of clothing ... [which will] be stored in an inaccessible location." First of all, what is an "excess amount of clothing?" Enough hosiery so you don't have to hand-wash your stockings every other day? And does the secret location the seized clothes go to really need to be proclaimed "inaccessible?" Couldn't the forbidden stuff just be "taken away?" Plus, why no comparable rule for men? Aren't "excess" blazers criminally equal to "excess" prairie dresses?

Re: "inaccessibility" - maybe they think the pervy men will go sniffing the panties...? But aren't worried about women sniffing some guy's 50 pairs of boxers? (Also, remember - toes aren't sexy. So no need to bring every pair of socks you own.). I don't know...everything JimBob-cronies do has a heavy undercurrent (or just a blatant in your face current!) of control over women. So maybe telling them what number of garments they can bring and stashing them in a secret hiding spot is one more way to make sure the harlots don't unwittingly wear a white cotton shirt when they're on dish duty (like a harlot - oops, I mean, "a woman" - would, amiright?!).

 

I love how us womenfolk are such trampy, trashy, man-leading-astray defrauders, while we simultaneously have absolutely no sex drive whatsoever! How DO we do it?!

[Indy]

Adoption is against the cult's values. Remember, Anna's brother reports that he was cast out because he adopted children.

 

Since the Gotthardites don't do adoption because of the whole "sins of the father" thing, if there was a Josh x Stripper love child, so, so many sins of that father there!

[kokapetl]

We don't know if he ever actually "confessed" anything. We also don't know if he ever felt remorse. All we have is the story told during the Fox interview by the parents.

I don't believe a word of it.

We have the police reports. Edited August 27, 2015 by Kokapetl

[Defrauder]

I know that they played up the whole "Josh came to us and confessed his heart" or whatever, but I'm pretty sure the police report said that, at least in one incident, the upset victim went to Jim Bob and Michelle and told them what happened. I have a really, really hard time believing that Josh immediately went sobbing to his parents all FIVE TIMES (that we know of) it happened.

Agree completely.  JB and Michelle like to spin almost everything.  I also don't believe their statement of how 'they found out late last night' of Josh's infidelity.  That would mean that WE all KNEW before they did.  Plus with Joshgate One they purposely (I hate that word now) waited for the statute of limitations to run out before reporting it - since Josh got a stern lecture and JB was running for senate.  They lie all of the time.  The bikini incident, the missing back muscle, the lies just never end with these people.

We have the police reports.

With JB's and Michelle's statements - no proof that they were truthful.

[AnJen]

That's really interesting AnJen. Like you I have an interest in historical sex ed during different time periods and classes. Do you have a reference for the lesbianism among young women? I'd love to study it in more detail. The part about older men taking boys to brothels etc was also fairly prevalent in the Victorian era, so then they could safely turn up to court a young women they weren't allowed to touch without exploding.

It's possible that JB tried something similar but I kind of doubt it, given that his reaction to the molestation was to send him out to do hard work so he will be too tired to have urges. But its possible given that he had cash and was away from his family for some time (presumably). But equally I could see his solution for Josh to pray more and confess his every thought given the way he was packed off to pray away the porn star for the next few weeks, in a place that decidedly doesn't seem keen on a little light sin on the side (as a strip club *might* be).

Actually it might have been more productive to pack Josh off to a discreet hotel with a strip club nearby (only very horrible for Anna if she found out) if they really aren't going to get therapy to address his issues.

 

Unfortunately, I don't have a reference; I found a handful of articles on the topic after reading this article on Jezebelm, and after discussing the article with a friend, the conversation kind of became "well I mean, if you couldn't hold a guy's hand or be alone in a room with him, but you could have your best friend come visit for a month and sleep in your bed with you that entire time, and hold her hand in public, do you think there were more lesbians than average in the Regency Era?" (we discussed Regency specifically because we're huge Jane Austen fans), so we googled it and found a bunch of articles on the topic. There was one in particular that was very scholarly and well-written, but I have been googling for about 10 minutes and can't seem to find it. :(

 

These questions usually come to me while watching Jane Austen (the sex-ed for men was a result of watching the newer Sense & Sensibility, where in an early scene, Willoughby is shown coaxing a younger, less knowledgeable girl into sleeping with him)

 

The Duggars put on such a fake face for the cameras, that I really don't know what to believe with them: I find both options equally likely, that Jim-Bob subtly guided Josh to what he maybe considered "appropriate" outlets for his urges, or that Jim-Bob and Michelle were completely blindsided by both the molestation and the adultery and porn. 

 

The main thing that leads me to believe Jim-Bob could've somehow aided Josh in his strip club attendance is the claim by the bouncer guy that Josh was in strip clubs constantly mouthing off with "Don't you know who my father is?!" Because if Jim-Bob behind the scenes is the Jim-Bob he shows for the cameras, Josh would've been lurking in the corner of the strip club with a hat and sunglasses, wary of anyone recognizing him and narking on him to his daddy...not proudly announcing whose son he is in the middle of a scene. What would he have done if someone had said "Of course we know who your father is; he'll just LOVE hearing what his son is up to"??

 

Obviously, the bouncer's story could be fictitious; but as another poster a while back said, everything "Alice" claimed all those years ago has been accurate so far, which implies that "Alice" was also accurate about Josh being into porn and strippers back then. Doesn't guarantee it, but honestly, I could see it.

 

Re: feeling bad vs not feeling bad for Josh/Anna...I never know where I stand.

 

Josh never asked to be forced into his parents' religion, and cults like this can be incredibly hard to break out from...but no one forced him to molest his sisters or to cheat on his wife, either. He could have satisfied his sexual urges in ways that didn't hurt others (I mean Anna would be hurt by the porn, I assume, but it's so much less hurtful than paying thousands of dollars to sleep with...basically anyone who isn't Anna), and he willingly chose not to. 

 

Anna also didn't ask for any of this; she drank all the Gothard Kool-Aid, she did everything she was supposed to do, and she still ended up with Josh for a husband. She just can't win. And I truly feel for her with 4 kids under 5 and finding out about this on top of it. But...by her own admission, she knew about the molestation (honestly, I don't know if I believe that, but she says she knew all the details). And she married him and let him be around her children with the knowledge that he never got any real help. And she has drank enough of the Kool-Aid that I think she genuinely believes all of Gothard's teachings on men/women and marriage. I'm pretty sure that Anna a) does take a lot of blame for this, b) has absolved Joshy of pretty much all responsibility, c) won't leave him and d) will teach her sons and daughters that this is how a good wife should submit to her husband...but in addition to that, I also think e) Anna resents being told she should leave him, for any reason and f) thinks anyone who would give her that advice is a godless heathen who deserves to burn in hell. And I have a hard time feeling sympathy for someone who refuses to hold her husband accountable, who won't leave him even for the sake of her children, and who will likely raise her children to view her marriage situation as the ideal and shun the ones who rebel against Gothardism. I realize it's been beaten into her from birth...but she has a better chance of escape than most cult-members. She has family who got out, and who have stated publicly that they've offered her help getting out too. She's choosing, at least for now, not to get out.

[Kiss my mutt]

I'm thinking that a prostitute would probably be pretty savvy about using birth control even if josh isn't.

[Cherrio]

We have the police reports.

Yes, I read them.    It still doesn't make any of it true.  The police reports imo add to my opinion in that the interviewee's sound very coached and prepped before they went.

    As my longtime historian friend always tells me, none of us were there.    So, it just comes down to what we choose to believe aka opinion.

[Defrauder]

Yes, but we have only Ma and Pa Duggar's word on how Josh was found out. "He confessed and was so terribly upset" makes a much better story than "we caught him with one hand on his sister and the other in his pants and more than once."

They're fresh out of credibility on this issue.

1,000 Likes!

[Satchels of gold]

My personal feeling was there was a lot of inappropriate watching/ touching going on and those times he confessed where times he actually did wake up one of the girls so he confessed before they could tell on him. I've thought this since reading the baby sitters statement that she woke up thinking he was trying to cover her with a blanket. He knew he woke her up. I , of course, have no way of knowing this but it's what I always believed the truth to be.

[Anne Elk]

Some abstinence-only programs teach that condoms are essentially useless at preventing disease. So Josh may have figured it wouldn't make any difference. 

[kokapetl]

Agree completely. JB and Michelle like to spin almost everything. I also don't believe their statement of how 'they found out late last night' of Josh's infidelity. That would mean that WE all KNEW before they did. Plus with Joshgate One they purposely (I hate that word now) waited for the statute of limitations to run out before reporting it - since Josh got a stern lecture and JB was running for senate. They lie all of the time. The bikini incident, the missing back muscle, the lies just never end with these people.

With JB's and Michelle's statements - no proof that they were truthful.

JimBob tried to get the party nomination for 2002, the incidents occurred in 2002 - 2003.

They also didn't wait until the statute of limitations had run out, the statute of limitations ran out three years after Josh's actions had been reported to police. The police failed to act in those three years.

I absolutely believe the Ashley Madison stuff was news to JimChelle.

The reports are damning to Josh. Liars with an objective to protect Josh wouldn't do that. The family could have said nothing happened, that the letter was from a nutcase, and they would have gotten away with it. Why tell the church and have Josh publicly confess to anything if they wanted to cover it up?

Edited August 27, 2015 by Kokapetl

[Defrauder]

JimBob tried to get the party nomination for 2002, the incidents occurred in 2002 - 2003.

They also didn't wait until the statute of limitations had run out, the statute of limitations ran out three years after Josh's actions had been reported to police. The police failed to act in those three years.

I absolutely believe the Ashley Madison stuff was news to JimChelle.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

[TaxNerd]

Well six months from now it will be winter in Chicago. I guess Josh is allowed to bring extra clothes so he can bundle up on trips to Wal-Mart while the women don't need excessive clothes since they just stay put.

Are the women supposed to ask the men for what they need to buy and give them their money?

If I were Anna, I'd be more worried about what trouble Josh will be getting into. He's sly, as Jessa said, and the staff at this place is small. Josh will be something of a celebrity and I assume six months isolated at a facility not dealing with sex addiction is a recipe to cheat again.

[HundFan]

[W]ell I mean, if you couldn't hold a guy's hand or be alone in a room with him, but you could have your best friend come visit for a month and sleep in your bed with you that entire time, and hold her hand in public, do you think there were more lesbians than average in the Regency Era?" 

 

 

I'm not lesbian, but my older daughter - whom my husband and I have always loved and adored - is, and if the suggestion is that women become lesbians simply as an "option" because they can't access men,  I strongly disagree. This notion ventures perilously close to labelling being LGBTQ as "lifestyle choices," not the genetically-driven and immutable sexual orientations most educated professionals now correctly consider them to be. I believe there's certainly a spectrum of sexual orientation, running from strongly straight to gloriously gay. And I'm not discounting that some people - regardless of era - might experiment with a quick dip outside their usual pond. But I will never buy that people decide, simply as a concession to opportunity and convenience, to become genuinely lesbian (or gay, etc.); rather, they opt out of living in a manner that betrays their true selves and instead come to feel safe enough to be the authentic people nature (or God) built them to be.

Edited August 27, 2015 by HundFan

[lulee]

Some abstinence-only programs teach that condoms are essentially useless at preventing disease. So Josh may have figured it wouldn't make any difference.

Plus - and I pour bleach as I type this - he may have heard that a condom lessened his little "Jim Smithson's" enjoyment. Edited August 27, 2015 by lulee

[kokapetl]

I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

 Agreed.

I should confess, I am a bleeding heart. I don't like the Duggars condemning people, but I don't like the Duggars being condemned either.

Well six months from now it will be winter in Chicago. I guess Josh is allowed to bring extra clothes so he can bundle up on trips to Wal-Mart while the women don't need excessive clothes since they just stay put.

Are the women supposed to ask the men for what they need to buy and give them their money?

If I were Anna, I'd be more worried about what trouble Josh will be getting into. He's sly, as Jessa said, and the staff at this place is small. Josh will be something of a celebrity and I assume six months isolated at a facility not dealing with sex addiction is a recipe to cheat again.

I really hope Anna realizes that Josh probably didn't want to marry her and clearly doesn't want the Quiverfull life. After his six months of indoctrination, I hope she puts the spotlight back onto the cheating, porn and the incompatible goals they have.

[Julia]

Since the Gotthardites don't do adoption because of the whole "sins of the father" thing

 

No kidding? I didn't know that.

 

So what exactly did their version of Jesus die for?

Edited August 27, 2015 by Julia

[HundFan]

Christian jewelry and sparkly winter decorations. (I can sense my devout Methodist grandmother rolling over in her grave as I type this.) Yes, as a matter of fact, I am a bad person.

Edited August 27, 2015 by HundFan

[Julia]

Christian jewelry and sparkly winter decorations. (I can sense my devout Methodist grandmother rolling over in her grave as I type this.) Yes, as a matter of fact, I am a bad person.

 

Oh, not as bad a person as I am. I was thinking "three days"

[HundFan]

Refill your coffee and come sit next to me. (This line stolen - more or less - from Alice Roosevelt.)

[truthtalk2014]

I'm wondering why do Jim Bob and Michelle feel the need to put out statements about Joshua? He is a grown adult, is he not? In the eyes of the law, whatever he does or doesn't do has nothing to do with his parents. Are they going to continue defending him when he's 47 and they're in their 70's?

This part is really baffling to me.  

 

I'm thinking that a prostitute would probably be pretty savvy about using birth control even if josh isn't.

 

Exactly!  They can't get pregnant left and right for extra bucks.  The chance abortion alone would cost them more.  Maybe I'm just crazy but I can't imagine (but I'm sure it happens if you are high on crack or something crazy like that) someone providing sex for money saying it's okay to not use protection. 

If I were Anna, I'd be more worried about what trouble Josh will be getting into. He's sly, as Jessa said, and the staff at this place is small. Josh will be something of a celebrity and I assume six months isolated at a facility not dealing with sex addiction is a recipe to cheat again.

Unless they keep those doors locked 24/7, Josh will be sneaking out - finding a hook up.  Plain and simple, Josh is not cut out for marriage.  He needs to ditch the place and get a divorce.  And after that, pay lots of child support and alimony.  

[Happyfatchick]

 I still really want to know the identity of Alice. Maybe a girl Josh done wrong before he was married, who wants to remain anonymous and still get the word out?

I know! After lighting the whole thing ablaze, Alice certainly died a quiet death, didn't she? Maybe Alice was indeed an "older woman" who's not here anymore to sit around saying, "Yyyyep. I tried to tell you". When I first started reading this forum (before the firestorm), I usually skipped the Josh/Anna thread. It was always one of the least popular - nobody could stand him, even then. Who would have ever guessed that JOSH would have ended up being the most used thread???

Last week sometime, someone called him "Pudding Boy" (sorry, don't remember who, to attribute it to the right source). I thought that was HILARIOUS - because here in the south (maybe everywhere, not sure), we have a habit of throwing the label "Puddin'" to a distinct class of people. A little lazy, a little dim, a little soft. For example, if some random guy said, "I don't know how to change a tire, I never had to before", some other random guy would give him a the "look" and respond, "well, come on, and I'll show you, Puddin'". Emphasis on the Pud. I meant to post: Lets PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE start calling him Puddin!!!!

[JenCarroll]

I'm sure like some of you, I'm getting pop up ads for addiction facilities. I just got a new one for finding out about B.E.D. - adult Binge Eating Disorder. Think Joshie knows what this is?

I'm getting ads for men's shapewear. Seriously. wtf

[kokapetl]

This part is really baffling to me.

Exactly! They can't get pregnant left and right for extra bucks. The chance abortion alone would cost them more. Maybe I'm just crazy but I can't imagine (but I'm sure it happens if you are high on crack or something crazy like that) someone providing sex for money saying it's okay to not use protection.

Unless they keep those doors locked 24/7, Josh will be sneaking out - finding a hook up. Plain and simple, Josh is not cut out for marriage. He needs to ditch the place and get a divorce. And after that, pay lots of child support and alimony.

Josh could sneak out, but he'd have to walk. Town looks really disorienting, everything is ranch style. Edited August 27, 2015 by Kokapetl

[galax-arena]

I'm not lesbian, but my older daughter - whom my husband and I have always loved and adored - is, and if the suggestion is that women become lesbians simply as an "option" because they can't access men,  I strongly disagree. This notion ventures perilously close to labelling being LGBTQ as "lifestyle choices," not the genetically-driven and immutable sexual orientations most educated professionals now correctly consider them to be. I believe there's certainly a spectrum of sexual orientation, running from strongly straight to gloriously gay. And I'm not discounting that some people - regardless of era - might experiment with a quick dip outside their usual pond. But I will never buy that people decide, simply as a concession to opportunity and convenience, to become genuinely lesbian (or gay, etc.); rather, they opt out of living in a manner that betrays their true selves and instead come to feel safe enough to be the authentic people nature (or God) built them to be.

I'm going to take this to the Small Talk thread!

[HundFan]

Last week sometime, someone called him "Pudding Boy" (sorry, don't remember who, to attribute it to the right source). I thought that was HILARIOUS - because here in the south (maybe everywhere, not sure), we have a habit of throwing the label "Puddin'" to a distinct class of people. A little lazy, a little dim, a little soft. For example, if some random guy said, "I don't know how to change a tire, I never had to before", some other random guy would give him a the "look" and respond, "well, come on, and I'll show you, Puddin'". Emphasis on the Pud. I meant to post: Lets PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE start calling him Puddin!!!!

Thanks, HFC!  Stuff like this is just one of the many reasons I love this board! Raised in Oregon and now living in California, I would never otherwise have access to cool regional patois like this. (I'd heard the term before, of course, but I had no clue re the pejorative meaning.)  I'm already making a list of people I will henceforth call "Puddin'."

[zenme]

I should confess, I am a bleeding heart. I don't like the Duggars condemning people, but I don't like the Duggars being condemned either.

 

I totally get it, but the difference between the Duggars and me is that I will co-snark and do my condemning via this site, and not actively in the streets, with t-shirts and posters.  They don't have to read this site.

I understand that the Duggars have a right to believe what they wish, and live their lives as they wish, as long as they aren't breaking any laws. 

[wovenloaf]

I'm getting ads for men's shapewear. Seriously. wtf

That's a thing? I might have to start screaming Nike and looking at my shoes if that makes it to my computer. 

[galax-arena]

I totally get it, but the difference between the Duggars and me is that I will co-snark and do my condemning via this site, and not actively in the streets, with t-shirts and posters.  They don't have to read this site.

Another difference is that we're not advocating for their civil rights to be taken away! I might criticize the Duggars for their religious beliefs, but I'm not trying to enshrine my anti-Quiverfull beliefs into law. 

[lulee]

I'm getting ads for men's shapewear. Seriously. wtf

call Mr. Costanza and Kramer! Bros all around!

[Churchhoney]

I'm not lesbian, but my older daughter - whom my husband and I have always loved and adored - is, and if the suggestion is that women become lesbians simply as an "option" because they can't access men,  I strongly disagree. This notion ventures perilously close to labelling being LGBTQ as "lifestyle choices," not the genetically-driven and immutable sexual orientations most educated professionals now correctly consider them to be. I believe there's certainly a spectrum of sexual orientation, running from strongly straight to gloriously gay. And I'm not discounting that some people - regardless of era - might experiment with a quick dip outside their usual pond. But I will never buy that people decide, simply as a concession to opportunity and convenience, to become genuinely lesbian (or gay, etc.); rather, they opt out of living in a manner that betrays their true selves and instead come to feel safe enough to be the authentic people nature (or God) built them to be.

 

I do think this is quite true.

 

But I also think that our sexuality is mostly way way way more fluid than we give it credit for, and that when people are in situations where one thing is available and another isn't, a pretty large number will find out that they can also have, act on and enjoy attractions that aren't the ones that they may be most strongly wired for. I expect this is what happens in a society where heterosexual sex-and-affection contact is unavailable or limited for whatever reasons while same-sex people are widely available for contact. Boarding-school romances and prison romances do usually involve attraction, sometimes very strong attraction, from at least one of the parties and often from both. And then people graduate or get parole and the large majority live heterosexual lives, while some have their strongest wiring for their own sex.

[SometimesBites]

Quoting becca3891 the old fashioned way, because IPads are rough with the quoting thing...

"I can easily believe Josh having a double standard where he feels contemptuous toward strippers and prostitutes and sees them as unworthy of respect."

No double standard. He has no respect for women, period.

The more I hear about this guy, the more I'm thinking full-on pathology, not just a perpetual adolescent acting out.

Ha! Yeah...not a double standard for Josh. Just a standard.

[Churchhoney]

I'm wondering why do Jim Bob and Michelle feel the need to put out statements about Joshua? He is a grown adult, is he not? In the eyes of the law, whatever he does or doesn't do has nothing to do with his parents. Are they going to continue defending him when he's 47 and they're in their 70's?

 

When someone is as controlling as Jim Bob (and maybe Michelle, too), there's no such thing as someone aging out of their purview and control. Control freaks don't raise children. They conceive and give birth to appendages and accessories, and that state is lifelong.

[BitterApple]

For me, the absolute clusterfuck that Anna now finds herself in underscores how dangerous the Gothard courtship process is. You marry someone you barely know and have never been alone with. You can't have meaningful conversations because your calls and texts are monitored. There is immense pressure to make things work because failed courtship reflect badly on the family and may limit future options. Maybe if Anna had been allowed to date Josh normally she would have noticed the red flags.

[Isthisok]

http://m.etonline.com/news/170797_josh_duggar_extended_family_member_i_hope_he_gets_broken_rehab/

So who are these relatives? Famy and...?

[floridamom]

I think at this point, Josh and Anna would qualify to be on Jerry Springer; deadbeat, cheating husband, poor little doormat sheltered wife, etc! What trash the Duggar family is turning out to be. That "Alice" post called them trash too.

Does Jim Bob realize what a complete jerk he looks like now during that "night before the wedding 'legos' talk" he had with Josh? Josh could have drawn his father a map! Who goes in to a strip club/bar and asks the staff if they know who their father is? I don't get that at all. Did Josh think that his father went there on the sly and was well known to the staff or did Josh think that HE would be recognized from the community? Does someone know what's up with that one?

[barbedwire]

Joshie is getting out in 6 months, if he is a good boy.  In 6 months is Valentine's Day.  Not much of a present for Anna.

[Liz Tudor]

I'm getting ads for men's shapewear. Seriously. wtf

this made me curious, so I scrolled around to see what kind of ads I'M getting... "Are you a woman seeking a divorce?" No, but I know a woman I WISH would get one!!!!