Jessa, Ben and Their Brood: Making a (Diaper) Mountain out of a Mold House

[Churchhoney]

7 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

She might have just been copying Erin Bates, who did this about a week ago.

....Well, apparently the Bateses area also advertising IBLP aka Alert .... So.....

the two explanations may not be mutually exclusive.

(Gothardites....Shhhh!!!) The IBLP people need cash and new blood!!

 

Edited August 22, 2020 by Churchhoney

[Sew Sumi]

18 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

She might have just been copying Erin Bates, who did this about a week ago.

Yeah, the Bates girls were trying to get people to make videos about their testimony. 

eta: Carlin and Josie have commented on the IG post (I found it on YouTube).

Edited August 22, 2020 by Sew Sumi

[GeeGolly]

1 minute ago, Sew Sumi said:

Yeah, the Bates girls were trying to get people to make videos about their testimony. 

I listened to part of Erin's. Oh my. If there's any truth to it, I'm surprised she didn't have nightmares every night.

[BitterApple]

36 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

I listened to part of Erin's. Oh my. If there's any truth to it, I'm surprised she didn't have nightmares every night.

Wow, what did she say?

[GeeGolly]

19 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

Wow, what did she say?

Something the effect of "being saved" at 5, but struggling with if she was really saved until she was 13.

[Sew Sumi]

21 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

Something the effect of "being saved" at 5, but struggling with if she was really saved until she was 13.

It was full of fear if God and I'm an unrepentant sinner. A horrible burden for a little child. 

[FizzyPuff]

2 hours ago, Absolom said:

I wonder who pressured Jessa into making the video and why now?  Is this another part of the the JB marketing IBLP that's going on?

A video where Jessa gets to talk about herself? No one pressured her, she loves the attention. 

[Churchhoney]

On 8/22/2020 at 4:25 PM, GeeGolly said:

Something the effect of "being saved" at 5, but struggling with if she was really saved until she was 13.

Well, I believe it because she was in an atmosphere where that kind of thought was in everybody's mind and people were talking about this stuff all the time.....Some kids dwell on things, and the potential hellfire and blood of Christ and so on attached to that could definitely prey on your mind. 

I have a parallel story, though, so maybe that's why I find it so convincing.

My family wasn't highly religious but kinda religious, although in a mainline Protestant way. We belonged to one of the churches that, a few years later, became a founding church of the United Church of Christ so, you know, not within a million miles of fundie. We did go to church every Sunday and so on, though. Our church had a lot of really thoughtful Sunday-school classes etc...so there was God talk all around, though of quite a different kind than these people experience.

But I realized at 5-on-the-cusp-of-6 -- early in first grade, anyway -- that I was pretty sure there wasn't a God. What followed that for me, even in my liberal-church atmosphere, was a kind of silent freakout about this idea that I suddenly felt strongly about. Because it flew in the face of the apparent beliefs of the whole culture around me. ....

My response was to go into this silent frenzy of reading about religious stuff that lasted until I was 13, and at the end of the two-year confirmation class I was in.

I read the bible all the way through a couple times over those years, Little Women inspired me to read The Pilgrim's Progress several times, I read over and over everything I could find related to Christianity including the lyrics in a bunch of old hymnals we had in the piano bench. I was obsessed with finding out as much as I could about the belief that people had and what was in those beliefs -- and also obsessed with trying to figure out why I didn't easily believe the same thing.

I worried and thought a lot about how I could be in the middle of a world where all this very specific and coherent God stuff was stated as true by pretty much the whole culture around me yet I found nothing but reasons to think it was all a fantasy. I didn't talk  to anybody about this, but my family and others thought I must be a religious zealot of some kind because I was always always reading something about it. And I'm pretty sure I did dream about it some. 😁

Anyway, when I got into the confirmation class in what had then become our United Church of Christ, it was great. The minister who taught the class made it into a philosophy of morals and comparative religion class and I really enjoyed it. And between that and all my years of reading and thinking, I  finally just became quite calm about the whole thing and concluded that I'd been right back in first grade. I was a confirmed atheist and I believed that was the best judgment I could make about the nature of the world. ....

And all the believer talk was hopes or fantasy or poetry or hypocrisy or speculation, I figured, depending on who was saying it...and there was no reason for me to worry any more about whether that was fact and I was flying in the face of the whole universe. I decided that I could absolutely have good morals and ethics without believing in a God I was convinced didn't exist.

I did worry about being a hypocrite by participating in confirmation. But in my family I tried hard not to stand out if I didn't have to because standing out added danger to an already dicey situation.  And since I knew by then that I didn't believe in God, I reasoned that swearing to a non-existent God that I believed in him wouldn't make any difference anyway.  And I didn't see any need to try to convince anybody else to stop believing. I figured that was their business just like my atheism was my business......

So after 7-plus years of being a maniacal bible reader and worrier-about-my-atheism I just accepted it as something I'd now thought through thoroughly  and felt confident in and got on with my life.

Long story short, I expect that, had I been "saved" at 5, I might have had the same kind of experience, just skewed toward different questions and concerns.  And I'm very glad I had my experience instead.

I believe some kids -- maybe even most kids -- are prone to taking big thoughts super-seriously to an extent that many adults would be surprised to see if they found out. And there are probably worse things to have nightmares about, although that's probably only true if they make you think and not just shrink in agony. Obviously the pressure in a lot of conservative churches would push you to shrink in agony, I suppose, but if they eventually end up feeling okay about their current spiritual state then I guess that's not so bad for them. 

I am super glad I had my experience and didn't find my self evangelically saved in grade one, though.

 

Edited August 25, 2020 by Churchhoney

[JoanArc]

2 hours ago, Absolom said:

I wonder who pressured Jessa into making the video and why now?  Is this another part of the the JB marketing IBLP that's going on?

Jill’s getting a heap of praise. We can’t have that!

[GeeGolly]

I was very fortunate. My mom was raised a Southern Baptist. Our family belonged to a mainstream Protestant church. I questioned all religions and whether there was a God. Although the town I lived in was primarily Jewish and Catholic, we had churches of many faiths, even a Church of Scientology. My mom supported me in allowing me to join my friends in their places of worship. I've attended a Kingdom Hall many times, have attended Hebrew school classes, Episcopal services, Catholic masses and too many bar/bat mitzvahs to count. My mom was rather impressed that I didn't take everything a face value and that I also had a lot of common sense.

Unfortunately Spurgie, Henry and Ivy will never have the same opportunity my parents allowed me.

10 minutes ago, JoanArc said:

Jill’s getting a heap of praise. We can’t have that!

Well Jessa picked the wrong ass topic to film if she wants praise. lol

[Churchhoney]

13 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

 

Well Jessa picked the wrong ass topic to film if she wants praise. lol

Jessa's not always too good at reading her audience. 😁

[latetotheparty]

1 hour ago, Churchhoney said:

Well, I believe it because she was in an atmosphere where that kind of thought was in everybody's mind and people were talking about this stuff all the time.....Some kids dwell on things, and the potential hellfire and blood of Christ and so on attached to that could definitely prey on your mind. 

I have a parallel story, though, so maybe that's why I find it so convincing.

My family wasn't highly religious but kinda religious, although in a mainline Protestant way. We belonged to one of the churches that, a few years later, became a founding church of the United Church of Christ so, you know, not within a million miles of fundie. We did go to church every Sunday and so on, though. Our church had a lot of really thoughtful Sunday-school classes etc...so there was God talk all around, though of quite a different kind than these people experience.

But I realized at 5-on-the-cusp-of-6 -- early in first grade, anyway -- that I was pretty sure there wasn't a God. What followed that for me, even in my liberal-church atmosphere, was a kind of silent freakout about this idea that I suddenly felt strongly about because it flew in the face of the apparent beliefs of the whole culture around me. ....

My response was to go into this silent frenzy of reading about religious stuff that lasted until I was 13, and at the end of the two-year confirmation class I was in.

I read the bible all the way through a couple times over those years, Little Women inspired me to read The Pilgrim's Progress several times, I read over and over everything I could find related to Christianity including the lyrics in a bunch of old hymnals we had in the piano bench. I was obsessed with finding out as much as I could about the belief that people had and what was in those beliefs -- and also obsessed with trying to figure out why I didn't easily believe the same thing.

I worried and thought a lot about how I could be in the middle of a world where all this very specific and coherent God stuff was stated as true by pretty much the whole culture around me yet I found nothing but reasons to think it was all a fantasy. I didn't talk  to anybody about this, but my family and others thought I must be a religious zealot of some kind because I was always always reading something about it. And I'm pretty sure I did dream about it some. 😁

Anyway, when I got into the confirmation class in what had then become our United Church of Christ, it was great. The minister who taught the class made it into a philosophy of morals and comparative religion class and I really enjoyed it. And between that and all my years of reading and thinking, I  finally just became quite calm about the whole thing and concluded that I'd been right back in first grade. I was a confirmed atheist and I believed that was the best judgment I could make about the nature of the world. ....

And all the believer talk was hopes or fantasy or poetry or hypocrisy or speculation, I figured, depending on who was saying it...and there was no reason for me to worry any more about whether that was fact and I was flying in the face of the whole universe. I decided that I could absolutely have good morals and ethics without believing in a God I was convinced didn't exist.

I did worry about being a hypocrite by participating in confirmation. But in my family I tried hard not to stand out if I didn't have to because standing out added danger to an already dicey situation.  And since I knew by then that I didn't believe in God, I reasoned that swearing to a non-existent God that I believed in him wouldn't make any difference anyway.  And I didn't see any need to try to convince anybody else to stop believing. I figured that was their business just like my atheism was my business......

So after 7-plus years of being a maniacal bible reader and worrier-about-my-atheism I just accepted it as something I'd now thought through thoroughly  and felt confident in and got on with my life.

Long story short, I expect that, had I been "saved" at 5, I might have had the same kind of experience, just skewed toward different questions and concerns.  And I'm very glad I had my experience instead.

I believe some kids -- maybe even most kids -- are prone to taking big thoughts super-seriously to an extent that many adults would be surprised to see if they found out. And there are probably worse things to have nightmares about, although that's probably only true if they make you think and not just shrink in agony. Obviously the pressure in a lot of conservative churches would push you to shrink in agony, I suppose, but if they eventually end up feeling okay about their current spiritual state then I guess that's not so bad for them. 

I am super glad I had my experience and didn't find my self evangelically saved in grade one, though.

 

I am also pre-merger UCC born and raised. We must be very close in age. 

[Churchhoney]

5 minutes ago, latetotheparty said:

I am also pre-merger UCC born and raised. We must be very close in age. 

It's a good age group!

I was Evangelical and Reformed. Which were you? 

Edited August 22, 2020 by Churchhoney

[latetotheparty]

1 hour ago, Churchhoney said:

It's a good age group!

I was Evangelical and Reformed. Which were you? 

Same. Like the good German girl I am. 

[awaken]

6 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

Something the effect of "being saved" at 5, but struggling with if she was really saved until she was 13.

That is basically what jessa said too. Funny how all of the stories are so similar 🙄

[BigBingerBro]

[cmr2014]

6 hours ago, Churchhoney said:

Well, I believe it because she was in an atmosphere where that kind of thought was in everybody's mind and people were talking about this stuff all the time.....Some kids dwell on things, and the potential hellfire and blood of Christ and so on attached to that could definitely prey on your mind. 

I have a parallel story, though, so maybe that's why I find it so convincing.

My family wasn't highly religious but kinda religious, although in a mainline Protestant way. We belonged to one of the churches that, a few years later, became a founding church of the United Church of Christ so, you know, not within a million miles of fundie. We did go to church every Sunday and so on, though. Our church had a lot of really thoughtful Sunday-school classes etc...so there was God talk all around, though of quite a different kind than these people experience.

But I realized at 5-on-the-cusp-of-6 -- early in first grade, anyway -- that I was pretty sure there wasn't a God. What followed that for me, even in my liberal-church atmosphere, was a kind of silent freakout about this idea that I suddenly felt strongly about because it flew in the face of the apparent beliefs of the whole culture around me. ....

My response was to go into this silent frenzy of reading about religious stuff that lasted until I was 13, and at the end of the two-year confirmation class I was in.

I read the bible all the way through a couple times over those years, Little Women inspired me to read The Pilgrim's Progress several times, I read over and over everything I could find related to Christianity including the lyrics in a bunch of old hymnals we had in the piano bench. I was obsessed with finding out as much as I could about the belief that people had and what was in those beliefs -- and also obsessed with trying to figure out why I didn't easily believe the same thing.

I worried and thought a lot about how I could be in the middle of a world where all this very specific and coherent God stuff was stated as true by pretty much the whole culture around me yet I found nothing but reasons to think it was all a fantasy. I didn't talk  to anybody about this, but my family and others thought I must be a religious zealot of some kind because I was always always reading something about it. And I'm pretty sure I did dream about it some. 😁

Anyway, when I got into the confirmation class in what had then become our United Church of Christ, it was great. The minister who taught the class made it into a philosophy of morals and comparative religion class and I really enjoyed it. And between that and all my years of reading and thinking, I  finally just became quite calm about the whole thing and concluded that I'd been right back in first grade. I was a confirmed atheist and I believed that was the best judgment I could make about the nature of the world. ....

And all the believer talk was hopes or fantasy or poetry or hypocrisy or speculation, I figured, depending on who was saying it...and there was no reason for me to worry any more about whether that was fact and I was flying in the face of the whole universe. I decided that I could absolutely have good morals and ethics without believing in a God I was convinced didn't exist.

I did worry about being a hypocrite by participating in confirmation. But in my family I tried hard not to stand out if I didn't have to because standing out added danger to an already dicey situation.  And since I knew by then that I didn't believe in God, I reasoned that swearing to a non-existent God that I believed in him wouldn't make any difference anyway.  And I didn't see any need to try to convince anybody else to stop believing. I figured that was their business just like my atheism was my business......

So after 7-plus years of being a maniacal bible reader and worrier-about-my-atheism I just accepted it as something I'd now thought through thoroughly  and felt confident in and got on with my life.

Long story short, I expect that, had I been "saved" at 5, I might have had the same kind of experience, just skewed toward different questions and concerns.  And I'm very glad I had my experience instead.

I believe some kids -- maybe even most kids -- are prone to taking big thoughts super-seriously to an extent that many adults would be surprised to see if they found out. And there are probably worse things to have nightmares about, although that's probably only true if they make you think and not just shrink in agony. Obviously the pressure in a lot of conservative churches would push you to shrink in agony, I suppose, but if they eventually end up feeling okay about their current spiritual state then I guess that's not so bad for them. 

I am super glad I had my experience and didn't find my self evangelically saved in grade one, though.

 

I had a similar experience as a child. I grew up in an extremely religious community, but my family was not religious at all. I was confused by the idea that something that was so very important to everyone I knew didn't matter at all to my parents. I read everything I could find on religion, and was deeply concerned that my parents would find out and disapprove (they didn't). There was one episode where my mother was showing someone around the house, and she opened the door to my closet to show our guest that I had a small walk-in closet. At that moment, I was sitting on a shelf in the closet reading the Bible. I was sure that I would get in trouble, but no one cared.

For me, there was a disconnect between my desire to fit in with my family, and my desire to fit in with my community. For Jessa, there's no disconnect at all. Regardless of what she may feel or believe, she's known what she needs to say and do to get approval from her family and her community, and she does it. The Duggars are all super-lazy, and I doubt that Jessa has really examined her beliefs at all -- ever.

[Chicklet]

I believe the Duggars are lazy-philosophically, practically, ok in every way but they have never been taught how to think. They are only taught what to think. There isn't a creative or critical thinker in the bunch because it is expressly forbidden. I can't blame Jessa for promulgating what has been forced on her since birth. She annoys the crap out of me, but I feel pity for her when I'm not disgusted by her housekeeping.

[GeeGolly]

Serious question, so please don't laugh or judge...

Do Christians think animals are sinners?

I ask this because I think the behaviors Jessa describes above are instinctual not sinful. Much like animals who need that instinct to survive.

[MaryAnneSpier]

No, animals aren't sinners because they don't have the logic that humans have. Animals live based on instinct, but since humans have logic and were created in the image of God, we are responsible to overcome our negative instincts and ask God for help and forgiveness. And animals don't have souls either, so we won't see them in heaven. *This is what I was taught in my Assembly of God church; it's not what I necessarily believe now*

[Chicklet]

3 minutes ago, MaryAnneSpier said:

No, animals aren't sinners because they don't have the logic that humans have. Animals live based on instinct, but since humans have logic and were created in the image of God, we are responsible to overcome our negative instincts and ask God for help and forgiveness. And animals don't have souls either, so we won't see them in heaven. *This is what I was taught in my Assembly of God church; it's not what I necessarily believe now*

So then how can the Duggars, et al state that young children are sinners? No logic there, not concrete thinkers, and just a beginning of the idea of right and wrong. It's all nonsense that they were sinners and then saved at such young ages. But it's "all true". I'm not a christian anymore and these ideas were some of the things that drove me away.

[Scarlett45]

2 minutes ago, Chicklet said:

So then how can the Duggars, et al state that young children are sinners? No logic there, not concrete thinkers, and just a beginning of the idea of right and wrong. It's all nonsense that they were sinners and then saved at such young ages. But it's "all true". I'm not a christian anymore and these ideas were some of the things that drove me away.

Because the children are members of the species homosapiens and thus are capable of sin no matter what their actual mental cognitive abilities are.

 My sister who will forever be a toddler and is 32 is a sinner to them- although she can be a legit asshole and bully sometimes (she knows Mommy will let her get away with murder). 

[Churchhoney]

3 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

Serious question, so please don't laugh or judge...

Do Christians think animals are sinners?

I ask this because I think the behaviors Jessa describes above are instinctual not sinful. Much like animals who need that instinct to survive.

A lot of theologians have written about this question. Many of the biggest names -- like St. Augustine-- have written about it extensively.

So it's in no way a silly question to those who (unlike the Duggars) actually take Christianity seriously -- the ones who think about Christianity instead of just mindlessly grabbing it as a kind of magic pill that makes you better than everybody else while you're alive on earth and keeps you from burning alive for eternity. 

 Calvin, in particular, wrote tons about the questions that animals raise about humans and the divine.  He was fascinated by the natural world. 

What he mostly said, as I recall, is that all of nature, but animals especially, constitute a "glorious theater" that plays itself out in front of us in a way that entrances us and draws us in. And as our minds absorb and reflect on what the theater of nature shows us, we get revelations about the nature of God, God's universe and us.

He seemed to have a real respect and love for nature and animals, as a lot of theologians and saints and other religious types have had. But mostly they see it on a different plane from us and thus not enmeshed in specifically human things, like sin and souls....Instead, it's like a book of metaphors and fables (created by God, crucially) that can help us -- the intermediate beings in the universe -- to understand God, the top being and ourselves, the ones made in God's image. 

Of course, most of these people wrote all this stuff pre-Darwin, pre-psychology, pre-anthropology and pre-modern-science, period. In ages when a knowledge of God was the only knowledge that was of real importance. Everything else was small beside it and functioned only in the context of God, created by him and reflecting truths about him. 

It's a cozier worldview. But it's not a possible one for most of us today, I don't think. We have to come up with something more complicated to make sense of things. That's harder and scarier.

I can see why these people are so fearful and like this tight structure. But facts is facts. 

 

Edited August 23, 2020 by Churchhoney

[GeeGolly]

My reality is there is nothing more innocent than a young child figuring out life. 

[Churchhoney]

2 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

My reality is there is nothing more innocent than a young child figuring out life. 

I'll buy that. 

[Chicklet]

38 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

Because the children are members of the species homosapiens

Gasp. Don't you call people that. Duggars take exception!

[farmgal4]

23 hours ago, TeeMo said:

I only lasted less than  5 minutes into this and had to turn it off when Jessa, a woman who had been molested by another of her parents’ children, stated that she was likely the “problem child” of the family and the one who gave her parents the most gray hairs for sure. But in case anyone is interested:

 

Her saying that took me aback, as well.  Just, WOW. 😶

[DangerousMinds]

Someone needs to keep reminding her that lying is a sin.

[GeeGolly]

Has anyone listened? Was Jessa truly experiencing depression?

[DangerousMinds]

16 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

Has anyone listened? Was Jessa truly experiencing depression?

Who knows but again, she lies.

[Churchhoney]

1 hour ago, GeeGolly said:

Has anyone listened? Was Jessa truly experiencing depression?

I skipped some of it, but I listened to pretty much of it, and from what I heard I don't think so.

Her talking about her own responses to all this don't actually take up much of the nearly half hour...Argh.....Anyway, She tallks about one period in her late-pre-teens-very-early-teens when she had periods of feeling restless and impatient and sometimes angry when she thought about whether she was saved or not. ....

And then she talks about some times when she was frustrated because she wasn't sure she was saved.

But as far as I heard those times seemed to grow directly out of experiences when somebody else told her that they felt absolutely "sure of their salvation." And  hearing that upset her because she hadn't been overswept by a strong feeling of this. So in comparison, she thought she might not have gotten herself saved.

The vast majority of what she does in here is explain in a lot of detail what salvation means to them and how it's supposed to work. What Jesus is doing, etc. 

To the extent that she describes her own responses, to me at least they sound like the pretty expected things you'd feel if other people suggested to you that they had some strong feeling of absolute surety all the time about something that you were supposed to respond to in the same way (or that you thought you were supposed to respond to in that way.) ..... That would be frustrating -- Why don't I feel this amazing wave of certainty??? (which these other people may well be exaggerating so they can one-up you or to hide their own uncertainties...) And then she describes some feelings that I think are pretty common among pubescent kids -- moodiness and unrest, basically.

If she had depression, I don't think she actually described it in this talk.  But that leads me to think that she probably didn't have depression.....

The idea that you're supposed to just spontaneously feel from the inside out some truly amazing experience because of Jesus must put a lot of pressure on you, though. Seems like a very unhealthy thing to shove on people to me.  

For once, I do sympathize with Jessa. Imagine walking around not feeling any overwhelming sensation from this thing that everyone you know says is the most important thing in the universe. And then some sibling or other strolls up to you and (smugly, but pretending not...)  notes that they have this amazing feeling of absolute certainty of their salvation and where they'll be for eternity.....And you don't feel that......So where are you gonna be for eternity? ... And then what you feel is that you'd like to rip the sibling's face off. So then you feel like a guilty sinner.....And, oh shit, now I really feel unsure of my salvation.....

Awful. I can see why she'd describe it as depression. What a thing to do to people.

It's a form of torture.

Edited August 23, 2020 by Churchhoney

[GeeGolly]

37 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

I skipped some of it, but I listened to pretty much of it, and from what I heard I don't think so.

Her talking about her own responses to all this don't actually take up much of the nearly half hour...Argh.....Anyway, She tallks about one period in her late-pre-teens-very-early-teens when she had periods of feeling restless and impatient and sometimes angry when she thought about whether she was saved or not. ....

And then she talks about some times when she was frustrated because she wasn't sure she was saved.

But as far as I heard those times seemed to grow directly out of experiences when somebody else told her that they felt absolutely "sure of their salvation." And  hearing that upset her because she hadn't been overswept by a strong feeling of this. So in comparison, she thought she might not have gotten herself saved.

The vast majority of what she does in here is explain in a lot of detail what salvation means to them and how it's supposed to work. What Jesus is doing, etc. 

To the extent that she describes her own responses, to me at least they sound like the pretty expected things you'd feel if other people suggested to you that they had some strong feeling of absolute surety all the time about something that you were supposed to respond to in the same way (or that you thought you were supposed to respond to in that way.) ..... That would be frustrating -- Why don't I feel this amazing wave of certainty??? (which these other people may well be exaggerating so they can one-up you or to hide their own uncertainties...) And then she describes some feelings that I think are pretty common among pubescent kids -- moodiness and unrest, basically.

If she had depression, I don't think she actually described it in this talk.  But that leads me to think that she probably didn't have depression.....

The idea that you're supposed to just spontaneously feel from the inside out some truly amazing experience because of Jesus must put a lot of pressure on you, though. Seems like a very unhealthy thing to shove on people to me.  

For once, I do sympathize with Jessa. Imagine walking around not feeling any overwhelming sensation from this thing that everyone you know says is the most important thing in the universe. And then some sibling or other strolls up to you and (smugly, but pretending not...)  notes that they have this amazing feeling of absolute certain of their salvation and where they'll be for eternity.....And you don't feel that......So where are you gonna be for eternity? ... And then what you feel is that you'd like to rip the sibling's face off. So then you feel like a guilty sinner.....And, oh shit, now I really feel unsure of my salvation.....

Awful. I can see why she'd describe it as depression. What a thing to do to people.

It's a form of torture.

I wonder if anyone is absolutely certain all the time. I figure in reality most have moments of peace and contentment of being saved. I far as I can see, permanent certainty would be near impossible.

But what do I know, I'm a mere heathen.

[Churchhoney]

19 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

I wonder if anyone is absolutely certain all the time. I figure in reality most have moments of peace and contentment of being saved. I far as I can see, permanent certainty would be near impossible.

But what do I know, I'm a mere heathen.

Yeah, I agree. That doesn't feel possible to me...... The thing is, it might not be what older and more thoughtful people actually claim....

But I just envision these kids mostly living  in a bubble of siblings who know what they think they're supposed to feel. And some of them then claiming they feel that or imagining they feel that -- and others then feeling more insecure because they hear that some feel totally sure -- and really everybody being confused....

.And I have a hard time imagining them getting much really helpful counsel out of JB or M if they asked them about this. And they probably were afraid to ask their honest questions since to a kid asking would seem to be an admission that you had been left out of the salvation bucket.

Edited August 23, 2020 by Churchhoney

[Absolom]

1 hour ago, Churchhoney said:

Awful. I can see why she'd describe it as depression. What a thing to do to people.

It's a form of torture.

This is exactly why I say I'm allergic to being a Baptist.  It's a form of Gospel pride which is of itself a sin. I associate it with Baptists because that's the congregations where I've seen it at it's worst.  They practically worship giving testimonies and I loathe testimonies much less anyone think I'll ever give one.  In many churches a person has to "give their testimony" before being baptized.  To me that's close to uncivilized.  It's definitely unkind and leads to those agonizing tales that have no doubt been embroidered or borrowed that caused Jessa so much grief.  It's sad Jessa who isn't a normally overly emotional person was exposed to the likely exaggerated descriptions of people who probably talked themselves into a form of overwrought emotional experience.   

Edited August 23, 2020 by Absolom

[GeeGolly]

Normally I would empathize with someone struggling with the uncertainty of their beliefs, but like @Absolom, @Churchhoney and others have said, many stories of being saved and/or struggling with being sure, have been borrowed, embellished or even totally made up. I lean with @DangerousMinds on this one and think Jessa is talking out her ass.

Being a therapist I get really bugged and bothered when folks throw around the words anxiety and depression when they're really feeling nervous or some sadness. It seems Jessa just put it in her post, but didn't talk about it, so who knows what she meant by it.

[crazycatlady58]

1 hour ago, GeeGolly said:

I wonder if anyone is absolutely certain all the time. I figure in reality most have moments of peace and contentment of being saved. I far as I can see, permanent certainty would be near impossible.

But what do I know, I'm a mere heathen.

I can only say what I feel and believe. Well , let me start by saying I do not want to come across as preaching this is just my feeling and believe. One of the things that the Bible talks about it not trusting feelings. They change. I have made a decision to follow Christ and I have faith in Christ for that. I trust Him not my feelings. I say that as someone who for the past few years have been stagnant in my faith.  I do not feel anything faith wise, and yes asking someone how they feel is not always a good thing because feelings can be manipulated.  I feel( ha) bad for Jessica because I don't think she has a firm foundation of having someone accept her for just being her.

[Nysha]

7 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

My sister who will forever be a toddler and is 32 is a sinner to them- although she can be a legit asshole and bully sometimes (she knows Mommy will let her get away with murder). 

Your sister would be considered a sinner because they think everyone is born in sin. All of the christians I've ever known, fundy & evangelical, believed everyone below the age of reason, usually 13, would go to heaven. People who had developmental delays and would never reach that age, no matter what their biological age was, were included in that belief.

[rue721]

I watched about half the video. I don't think Jessa was lying, the feelings she was describing sounded natural and normal. As a kid/adolescent, she didn't feel some overwhelming certainty in her religion, but everyone else was acting like they were in complete religious ecstasy, and it disturbed her that she didn't "get" what was going on with them. So then she did whatever she could to get herself to feel what she believed they were all feeling. And she was sometimes successful, sometimes not.

My main takeaway was that they were all wayyyyyyy too fixated on Jesus and religion, there was basically nothing else in their lives. She talks about how she sometimes felt like, "is this really all there is?" and it just sounded like she was bored. But the only acceptable outlet for emotion, ambition, anything, was religious stuff. So she threw herself into religious stuff. And is sorta satisfied, sorta still restless and bored and wondering if there's anything more to life.

And uhhh it's NOT! It's not all there is! There is a whole big world out there with plenty she could do or learn.

I feel bad for her. She is clearly someone who would be so much happier and more fulfilled if she could have dedicated herself to more concrete accomplishments and ways of growing. She's not an airy-fairy type, she would have been so much better off channeling herself into success at school or work. But she's still young, hopefully she will find enough confidence to be true to herself and acknowledge that she's a doer more than a prayer and just get to doing. I feel like she's a square peg who's trying to carve herself into a different shape because she's been brainwashed into thinking that there's only one shape every person could or should be.

[YupItsMe]

17 hours ago, BigBingerBro said:

I think Ben wrote that, not Jessa.

Edited August 23, 2020 by YupItsMe

[Scarlett45]

15 minutes ago, Nysha said:

Your sister would be considered a sinner because they think everyone is born in sin. All of the christians I've ever known, fundy & evangelical, believed everyone below the age of reason, usually 13, would go to heaven. People who had developmental delays and would never reach that age, no matter what their biological age was, were included in that belief.

Yes that was my point. Isnt 7 the age of reason though which is why mens rea is 7 under English common law?

Anywho’s, where I disagree with Jessa (probably because I’m not a Christian) is that someone can be sinful just because they exist. I would think you would need mens rea to commit a sin. Other than that you’re just existing like any other living species. But what do I know about Jessa’s faith?? I’ll take this over to the religion thread after I ponder it. 

[Absolom]

1 hour ago, crazycatlady58 said:

I can only say what I feel and believe. Well , let me start by saying I do not want to come across as preaching this is just my feeling and believe. One of the things that the Bible talks about it not trusting feelings. They change. I have made a decision to follow Christ and I have faith in Christ for that. I trust Him not my feelings. I say that as someone who for the past few years have been stagnant in my faith.  I do not feel anything faith wise, and yes asking someone how they feel is not always a good thing because feelings can be manipulated.  I feel( ha) bad for Jessica because I don't think she has a firm foundation of having someone accept her for just being her.

I agree and I've heard a lot of non-Baptist sermons to that effect.  It makes me hurt for Jessa that she thinks faith should be or has to be some huge emotional experience.  A lot of "conversions" in my experience are emotional manipulation or kind of a form of group hysteria after being worked up by a preacher.  

Edited August 23, 2020 by Absolom

[lascuba]

2 hours ago, rue721 said:

I watched about half the video. I don't think Jessa was lying, the feelings she was describing sounded natural and normal. As a kid/adolescent, she didn't feel some overwhelming certainty in her religion, but everyone else was acting like they were in complete religious ecstasy, and it disturbed her that she didn't "get" what was going on with them. So then she did whatever she could to get herself to feel what she believed they were all feeling. And she was sometimes successful, sometimes not.

My main takeaway was that they were all wayyyyyyy too fixated on Jesus and religion, there was basically nothing else in their lives. She talks about how she sometimes felt like, "is this really all there is?" and it just sounded like she was bored. But the only acceptable outlet for emotion, ambition, anything, was religious stuff. So she threw herself into religious stuff. And is sorta satisfied, sorta still restless and bored and wondering if there's anything more to life.

And uhhh it's NOT! It's not all there is! There is a whole big world out there with plenty she could do or learn.

I feel bad for her. She is clearly someone who would be so much happier and more fulfilled if she could have dedicated herself to more concrete accomplishments and ways of growing. She's not an airy-fairy type, she would have been so much better off channeling herself into success at school or work. But she's still young, hopefully she will find enough confidence to be true to herself and acknowledge that she's a doer more than a prayer and just get to doing. I feel like she's a square peg who's trying to carve herself into a different shape because she's been brainwashed into thinking that there's only one shape every person could or should be.

These are all really good points. I always got the impression from the show that Jessa was one of the ones most harshly disciplined as a child. More than once Michelle said that she thought Jessa was deaf when she was little because she wouldn't listen. And JB once said about her, "If you raise a strong willed child in faith, she will be strong in her faith." I think the physical and emotional abuse she got, while not completely dampening her personality, made her eager to please in a way that most satisfies her parents. So when everyone around her was describing how amazing it felt to be saved, she got nervous that she was failing at loving Jesus.

I, as ever, remain grateful that I grew up in a culturally Catholic family that didn't take any of it seriously, even with going to Catholic school. Though even with that, it absolutely boggles their minds that I'm an atheist. Not believing in god is a bridge too far even for people who's belief makes exactly zero difference in their lives.

[Tikichick]

On 8/23/2020 at 7:33 AM, Chicklet said:

I believe the Duggars are lazy-philosophically, practically, ok in every way but they have never been taught how to think. They are only taught what to think. There isn't a creative or critical thinker in the bunch because it is expressly forbidden. I can't blame Jessa for promulgating what has been forced on her since birth. She annoys the crap out of me, but I feel pity for her when I'm not disgusted by her housekeeping.

The idea that questioning, studying, exploring, learning and attempting to reach an informed choice is wrong is one of the things I find most heinous about the practice of the fundie faith of the Duggars and their ilk.  I was raised in a conservative, very traditional, mainline Protestant church and still practice in a less conservative branch of the same mainline Protestant church today.  I grew up attending the affiliated church school and graduated from a parochial HS where kids from all branches of this church attended.  Even from the earliest days in the conservative side of this church we were always taught to study, question, study, question, study, study, study and reach a conclusion based on what we find in the scriptures.  We believe that the Jewish faith follows the same God, simply does not recognize Christ as the savior predicted by the prophets.  The Jewish tradition also is one where scripture is heavily studied in order to understandingly form beliefs.

We were taught simply parroting empty beliefs is meaningless and that God gave humans our minds to think with, knowing that it gave us the option of believing or not.   I've never understood the idea someone can believe that their Creator gave them a mind to think with, they've freely made the choice to follow God -- and then think they have the power to basically dictate other people into following their beliefs.   Really?  You're more powerful than God? 

[Zella]

5 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

The idea that questioning, studying, exploring, learning and attempting to reach an informed choice is wrong is one of the things I find most heinous about the practice of the fundie faith of the Duggars and their ilk.  I was raised in a conservative, very traditional, mainline Protestant church and still practice in a less conservative branch of the same mainline Protestant church today.  I grew up attending the affiliated church school and graduated from a parochial HS where kids from all branches of this church attended.  Even from the earliest days in the conservative side of this church we were always taught to study, question, study, question, study, study, study and reach a conclusion based on what we find in the scriptures.  We believe that the Jewish faith follows the same God, simply does not recognize Christ as the savior predicted by the prophets.  The Jewish tradition also is one where scripture is heavily studied in order to understandingly form beliefs.

We were taught simply parroting empty beliefs is meaningless and that God gave humans our minds to think with, knowing that it gave us the option of believing or not.   I've never understood the idea someone can believe that their Creator gave them a mind to think with, they've freely made the choice to follow God -- and then think they have the power to basically dictate other people into following their beliefs.   Really?  You're more powerful than God? 

I'm eternally grateful to a teacher I had at my religious college, who told us in class, "you shouldn't be afraid of thinking!" Because the idea of not being allowed to think critically really bothers me. I agree it's one of the most heinous things about the Duggars. They have severely handicapped their children in so many ways with this. 

[Pixie Chicken]

On 8/23/2020 at 5:01 PM, Scarlett45 said:

Anywho’s, where I disagree with Jessa (probably because I’m not a Christian) is that someone can be sinful just because they exist. I would think you would need mens rea to commit a sin. Other than that you’re just existing like any other living species. But what do I know about Jessa’s faith?? I’ll take this over to the religion thread after I ponder it. 

I don't really get their idea of salvation, either. For one, "sin" doesn't mean "terrible thing that damns you to hell." It's something that is wrong, and for kids it can be lying, stealing a cookie, reacting in anger to a sibling. Most Christians would agree with you that while sinful, those things actually ARE equivalent to just existing, because all people since the fall of Adam and Eve have been born sinful. (Except Jesus.) It doesn't necessarily have to be a conscious decision or some terrible misdeed. 

As others have pointed out, children and those without the ability to understand aren't held accountable for that. 

But literally the entire point of Christianity is that Jesus saves from sin.  For people who stake their entire identity on this, why is/was Jessa so fearful that she's not **really** saved? Someone put that into her head. Personally, I think their legalistic adherence to rules is a big part of the problem. Their trust in a savior isn't quite enough -- they also need to earn extra credit by following a bunch of extra rules where no deviation is permitted. They say their faith saves them, but just in case, they better earn it, too.

My children know they're sinners. It doesn't look *anything* like what Jessa describes. It's more like, "We all do bad things from time to time, but you can't hit your brother. That's wrong. Go sit in your room until you're ready to apologize to him and behave yourself." No threats of eternal damnation!

The "saved" thing is most common in evangelical/fundy churches. You don't hear that term in every church. They might call it salvation or grace or redemption. The concept of being "saved" in the particular way Jessa uses it is not common across all of Protestantism. 

[mythoughtis]

8 hours ago, Pixie Chicken said:

I don't really get their idea of salvation, either. For one, "sin" doesn't mean "terrible thing that damns you to hell." It's something that is wrong, and for kids it can be lying, stealing a cookie, reacting in anger to a sibling. Most Christians would agree with you that while sinful, those things actually ARE equivalent to just existing, because all people since the fall of Adam and Eve have been born sinful. (Except Jesus.) It doesn't necessarily have to be a conscious decision or some terrible misdeed. 

As others have pointed out, children and those without the ability to understand aren't held accountable for that. 

But literally the entire point of Christianity is that Jesus saves from sin.  For people who stake their entire identity on this, why is/was Jessa so fearful that she's not **really** saved? Someone put that into her head. Personally, I think their legalistic adherence to rules is a big part of the problem. Their trust in a savior isn't quite enough -- they also need to earn extra credit by following a bunch of extra rules where no deviation is permitted. They say their faith saves them, but just in case, they better earn it, too.

My children know they're sinners. It doesn't look *anything* like what Jessa describes. It's more like, "We all do bad things from time to time, but you can't hit your brother. That's wrong. Go sit in your room until you're ready to apologize to him and behave yourself." No threats of eternal damnation!

The "saved" thing is most common in evangelical/fundy churches. You don't hear that term in every church. They might call it salvation or grace or redemption. The concept of being "saved" in the particular way Jessa uses it is not common across all of Protestantism. 

This.  These extreme churches require so much more to be ‘saved’ than the rest of us that require only that you believe in God, acknowledge you aren’t perfect( That you sin) and that you believe  Jesus died in your place.  That’s grace.  There is  no ‘not eating pork’, no animal sacrifice, no specific clothing, no courtship rules, no nothing  beyond sincerely believing that.  Jessa couldn’t comprehend why legalistic behavior was being required if grace was all that was needed  and therefore thought she wasn’t saved. 

Edited August 25, 2020 by mythoughtis

[ginger90]

4 pictures:

 

And....

[GeeGolly]

Jackson is getting lazy in his photo bombs.

[crazy8s]

not sure why that was posted now - when every cheesy cable channel was doing christmas in July it would have made more sense. getting desperate or duggar time

[Dimi1]

On 8/23/2020 at 10:56 AM, GeeGolly said:

My reality is there is nothing more innocent than a young child figuring out life. 

Have you all seen the video/films by John Paul Rice...the producer exposing child trafficking ...EYE opening as far as kids are concerned...I do not agree with everything he says and he gets kind of out there. but ...wowzers...has a lot to do with fear as it relates to kids. He also exposes some things in Hollywood and music...