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The Duggalos: Jinger and the Holy Goalie

frenchtoast

By frenchtoast
in Counting On

cm-soupsipper
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Closure Notice: This Thread is now closed due to the name (and much of the posting within it). Please be mindful going forward by naming topics in a way that invites a healthy community conversation. If you name something for a cheap laugh, this thread may be closed later because it encourages discrimination and harm. 

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Spencer Hastings
Spencer Hastings

Tough crowd!  She's wearing modern shoes with closed toes, pants, and a shirt that literally calls back to her family's ridiculous rules and there are still 35 things wrong with what she's doing. 

Churchhoney
Churchhoney

That's okay. He's forgotten it a few times himself. 

GeeGolly
GeeGolly

My push presents after having my kids were my kids. 

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Pixie Chicken

Pixie Chicken

On 9/22/2020 at 12:40 PM, Zella said:

Yeah I'm also wondering if there was something about COFO that attracted a specific brand of Northern Calvinist? Now that I am thinking about it, all the hipster Calvinist dudes I know and compare Jeremy unfavorably to were Midwestern dudes from Illinois and Michigan (with one exception). I feel like a greater majority of the student body were Ozark kids, who tended to come from a much more Southern evangelical non-Calvinist perspective, and there tended to be some real conflict over the chapel service because of it.

I think by "Northern Calvinist" you mean people who identify as Reformed. They don't use the term "Calvinist" much but there's a bunch of denominations under this umbrella that are mainly in the Midwest with pockets elsewhere. They include Presbyterians but not the "liberal" PCUSA.

Annnnnd, they don't count MacArthur among their ranks. He's viewed as generally benign, but not really in line with their beliefs. (And many of the denominations have criticized his handling of Covid, believing that he isn't protecting the vulnerable as the Bible says.)

The hipsters you recall are probably Reformed outliers. Dramatic personal salvation stories are a giveaway. Some DO, but most use the term "covenant children" -- being raised in the church and learning about God from early on. Babies are usually baptized very young, too. (Another giveaway that Jeremy isn't part of this group.) Those hipsters probably lean more evangelical and chose a school that aligned with that. 

My guess is that Jeremy wouldn't even have been accepted at the more traditionally Reformed seminaries or hired at those churches. He is basically an evangelical whose beliefs overlap with some of Calvin's teachings. The ones where he differs are pretty significant and would be controversial in the mainline denominations. 

Calvinism is trendy now, as Churchhoney pointed out, and he likes to be trendy.  I don't know why he chose MacArthur, but it wasn't because that's some mecca of Calvin's teaching.

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Zella

Zella

(edited)
10 hours ago, Pixie Chicken said:

I think by "Northern Calvinist" you mean people who identify as Reformed. They don't use the term "Calvinist" much but there's a bunch of denominations under this umbrella that are mainly in the Midwest with pockets elsewhere. They include Presbyterians but not the "liberal" PCUSA.

Annnnnd, they don't count MacArthur among their ranks. He's viewed as generally benign, but not really in line with their beliefs. (And many of the denominations have criticized his handling of Covid, believing that he isn't protecting the vulnerable as the Bible says.)

The hipsters you recall are probably Reformed outliers. Dramatic personal salvation stories are a giveaway. Some DO, but most use the term "covenant children" -- being raised in the church and learning about God from early on. Babies are usually baptized very young, too. (Another giveaway that Jeremy isn't part of this group.) Those hipsters probably lean more evangelical and chose a school that aligned with that. 

My guess is that Jeremy wouldn't even have been accepted at the more traditionally Reformed seminaries or hired at those churches. He is basically an evangelical whose beliefs overlap with some of Calvin's teachings. The ones where he differs are pretty significant and would be controversial in the mainline denominations. 

Calvinism is trendy now, as Churchhoney pointed out, and he likes to be trendy.  I don't know why he chose MacArthur, but it wasn't because that's some mecca of Calvin's teaching.

This was very informative--thank you!--and confirms to me how oddball Jeremy's decision to go to that specific seminary is. 

The people I was talking about proudly identified as Calvinist, though their actual denomination tended to be Reformed or Presbyterian. I'd never actually met people who identified themselves as such before then or after. It was also the first time I'd met people who wanted to defend the Puritans. (One got very flustered in a history class and demanded, "Why do people hate Puritans? They were very godly." And I said, "Read The Scarlet Letter and The Crucible and get back with me on that." She did not in fact get back with me on that. LOL) 

 

Edited by Zella
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Pixie Chicken

Pixie Chicken

(edited)
7 hours ago, Zella said:

This was very informative--thank you!--and confirms to me how oddball Jeremy's decision to go to that specific seminary is. 

The people I was talking about proudly identified as Calvinist, though their actual denomination tended to be Reformed or Presbyterian. I'd never actually met people who identified themselves as such before then or after. It was also the first time I'd met people who wanted to defend the Puritans. (One got very flustered in a history class and demanded, "Why do people hate Puritans? They were very godly." And I said, "Read The Scarlet Letter and The Crucible and get back with me on that." She did not in fact get back with me on that. LOL) 

 

Was this the 90s or very early 2000s? There was a big shift around that time, and some fringe groups felt the modern church could learn a lot from the Puritans and be LESS inclusive and welcoming. A bunch of denominations split or reorganized over it. 

That was when the "courting" trend was big, too, though mostly in evangelical circles. Sound familiar? I feel like we know of some people who jumped right on that bandwagon....

Edited by Pixie Chicken
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Zella

Zella

(edited)
52 minutes ago, Pixie Chicken said:

Was this the 90s or very early 2000s? There was a big shift around that time, and some fringe groups felt the modern church could learn a lot from the Puritans and be LESS inclusive and welcoming. A bunch of denominations split or reorganized over it. 

That was when the "courting" trend was big, too, though mostly in evangelical circles. Sound familiar? I feel like we know of some people who jumped right on that bandwagon... 😆

 

 

 

 

😂

It was actually in the early 2010s, about 10 years ago. But these folks would have been in their formative years during the 90s/early 2000s, and that movement may have been very influential in what they were taught by their parents and churches. 

I wonder if Jeremy has an opinion on the Puritans. 🤣

Edited by Zella
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Churchhoney

Churchhoney

(edited)
2 hours ago, floridamom said:

I think Jeremy decided on this particular seminary school because this was a guy that he could suck up to, would be given a free house to live in and it's it LA.

Me, too.

Also, MacArthur likes appearances and has pretty successfully cemented an image over the years of being well off and attracting the well off -- all in line with Jer's enthusiasms and ambitions.

And from being around his dad, Jer already kind of knew how to talk key bits of the evangelical game, the reformed/Calvinist game, and the complementarian (women do one set of things (only!!!), men do another, and the men are in charge) game. So I expect he figured that'd make his workload relatively light, since those are key ingredients of JM's theology-salad, too.

 

 

 

Edited by Churchhoney
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Churchhoney

Churchhoney

(edited)

Jer's degree program -- my response -- per @sATL    in the Jill & Der discussion....

"Ok.. maybe his "new" career path is what I didn't factor into why the schooling is taking twice as long as I originally thought...."   Etc.

Yeah, I think that's exactly it.

And I'm sure Jer is far from the only student in this position.

The ultimate tell on that is what I'd call a clear academic remedial course they've just added to the program. Its presence indicates that they want to enroll guys even when they don't have -- or have forgotten? -- some really really basic academic skills that their curriculum requires....

It's called "Grammar, Research, & Writing"

"This course provides an introduction to the basics of English Grammar, Scholarly Research, and Academic Writing. These skills are necessary not only for student success in later courses, but for the lifelong pursuit of excellence in the study and communication of biblical truth. Topics covered include basic grammatical constructions such as parts of speech, syntax, phrases and clauses, and sentence diagramming), research methodology, bibliographic formatting, effective use of the library, and keys to writing well."

It's clear that anybody who needed that course couldn't in a million years just plop into a couple years' study of ancient Greek and Hebrew and come out the end of it with the capabilities they want. Here's how they describe what these guys are supposed to be able to do by the end of their language study --

"Our expanded curriculum, taught by a united faculty of pastor-theologians, fully prepares you to . . .

"Master the Original Languages

"Know How to Interpret Any Text"

Honestly, I don't think that's possible in the time frame even for people who came in well prepared to study Hebrew and Greek. (Any text? Seriously? If one guy just finished up with one master's degree can do that, why have we needed all those huge scholarly committees with researchers from multiple disciplines to produce the bible translations we have?)

That objection aside, however, it absolutely couldn't be true that after a couple years' study, a person would end up being able to "interpret any text" in not one but two previously unknown (and very different-from-each-other) languages if they came in not knowing the parts of speech!     

And, of course, this is not a language curriculum. The languages are just one element of a curriculum that aims to turn guys into pastors with a very broad base of knowledge and skills. And I don't think they're crazy aims. Ideally, you would want a pastor to be able to know and do all this stuff. But that takes a lot of time......And much of it, like preaching and pastoral counseling, can't be just stuff you learn out of a book. They need practical workshops and stuff so they can practice the skills by doing.

And as for taking the core courses as an undergrad, I have read that undergrad divinity studies are really a very very small phenomenon these days, and divinity studies have moved to the graduate level almost across the board. So that would mean that the core courses would have to be taken by most people as grad students.

Here's a summary of the first year's courses. And to me it looks like exactly what you'd want a pastor to be able to do. And it also looks like stuff that takes a long time to learn. ... Plus, I think many people have come somewhat later in life to the idea of going into the ministry. I know several people who've gone to divinity school after preparing for (and pursuing) quite different careers originally.

So I don't really see why it's so shocking and wrong for them to offer this as a four-year degree (and I'm no MacArthur fan...) .... There's no law about how long you have to study for various degrees. And this degree basically gives you an undergrad-plus-standard-master's-level education for the ministry, looks like to me. And I expect there's a pretty strong market for that, given my own experience of people not realizing they want a divinity degree until after they've done their undergraduate work elsewhere and done some other kind of job. Rather than shopping about to take the undergrad courses helter-skelter, here you get them melded together with more advanced stuff. I don't see that there's anything wrong with that if people are willing to do it.

Anyway, here's their first year, with descriptions of some of the courses --

Year 1

Beginning Greek I & II

Old Testament Studies I & II

Hermeneutics

Study the major interpretive approaches to the Bible, both historical and contemporary, and learn the principles for normal cultural, and historical interpretation. Establish general and special principles of interpretation by examining parables, types, prophecies, poetry, and a variety of figurative constructs. 

Grammar, Research, & Writing

(This is the remedial course described above.)

Foundations of Pastoral Ministry

This course introduces you to the roles and responsibilities inherent to being a pastor. Crafted for the purpose of enhancing your ministry preparedness, this class focuses the qualifications for spiritual leadership, a biblical paradigm for local church ministry, and the practical realities of shepherding a congregation.

Foundations of Expository Preaching

Understanding that the ultimate goal of every theological education is being able to effectively communicate God’s truth, this first semester course develops and illustrates the biblical mandate for expository preaching. Special emphasis is placed on the essence and essentials of expository preaching and the source of its power.

Pastoral Counseling

This course covers topics such as the theological basis of discipleship/counseling, the definition of biblical counseling, the essentials for the discipler/ counselor, a comparison of counseling philosophies, and the biblical view of change, guilt, and self-image. Also included are the key elements of the counseling process, handling one’s past and one’s attitude.

Prayer & the Pastor

With a focus on the scriptural teaching on prayer, this course is designed to impact your personal prayer life and prepare you for leading a congregation of believers. The course examines the tension of the sovereignty of God, the responsibility of humans to pray and respond, and the role of the Holy Spirit.

I don't know what things here I would want a pastor to have skipped, But it's going to take quite a bit of time to master all that stuff.....And of course they haven't begun the Hebrew -- or the study of the new testament -- when year 1 ends. ....

The rest of the details and their argument for the degree program being the way it is is at this url (and actually I think they make a very good case for what they're doing -- not that I think a lot of people would want to go through all this....) -- https://tms.edu/academics/degree-programs/master-of-divinity/

And I do doubt that this is a degree well suited to Jer's level of academic and pastor-related enthusiasms. I mean, where's the course in gourmet burgers? And I don't see anything about European men's fashion or expensive fountain pens.  😈

He's lucky that he's a pet and will likely be awarded the degree just based on his suck-up status, not contingent on his actually mastering much of this, I'm guessing.

And I do wonder whether what seems to me his near-complete unsuitability for this curriculum (My guess is that he likes the preaching part....period...although he's not gifted in that either) isn't part of why we see so little connection (like, zero) between him and his fellow students. I wonder whether he isn't both put off by and secretly intimidated by the essential academic nerdiness of some of the others. Maybe he stays away from them because he doesn't want to be found out as somebody who doesn't actually give a crap about academics?

Edited by Churchhoney
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GeeGolly

GeeGolly

(edited)
44 minutes ago, Temperance said:

Well he is calling this a "throwback". That means the picture was taken long before now. This picture is probably from before the Pandemic. 

Yes I know, hence saying they now must fess up. It seems they had a lot photos taken at one or two times, and prior to the pandemic they'd post the pics as if they were current. Eagle eyed posters on here would often notice the pics weren't current.

Edited by GeeGolly
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Minivanessa

Minivanessa

16 minutes ago, ouinason said:

what's with her pinched smile?  Take a picture when you are actually happy Jinger!

I think she was trying to be cute like she had a delicious bite of ice cream behind her smile. And, it's not easy being a Breakout Star™ - you gotta keep bringing out content even when you might not be up for it. Poor thang, working hard for the money.

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crazy8s

crazy8s

4 hours ago, BigBingerBro said:

I don't have kids.  Can a kid that young acutally get into messaging and do this?  I'm assuming the phone was unlocked?

oh I get things like that from an 18 month old grand fairly often, parents have the phone up on a table or counter and the child is a climber. she knows how to swipe the screen and all. Prop needs to find the emojis. she can send the poop emoji, exploding heads and all

difference here is it gets sent to only me and doesn't become a "how cute" post from her parents.

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cm-soupsipper
Message added by cm-soupsipper,

Closure Notice: This Thread is now closed due to the name (and much of the posting within it). Please be mindful going forward by naming topics in a way that invites a healthy community conversation. If you name something for a cheap laugh, this thread may be closed later because it encourages discrimination and harm. 

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