The Duggalos: Jinger and the Holy Goalie

[emmawoodhouse]

25 minutes ago, Temperance said:

Plenty of conservative Christians grew up with both. Her parents aren't fundie. 

She said her parents were HUGE MJ fans. Thriller was the first album she downloaded.

[doodlebug]

26 minutes ago, Temperance said:

Plenty of conservative Christians grew up with both. Her parents aren't fundie. 

Elvis recorded a ton of Gospel tunes during his career, in addition to Rock'n Roll.

[Churchhoney]

17 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

Wow, Elvis's moving hips weren't allowed on TV back in the day and MJ took his dancing even farther, including grabbing his crotch. I know of parents who didn't allow their kids to listen to or watch MJ and religion had nothing to do with it.

Gabby's from a family of eight kids that struggled with poverty or near-poverty, multiple low-wage jobs and such, I've read. And she had her eyes set on a singing career from a very young age -- and worked hard in every way she could to get that career even when she was quite young -- with parental support to the extent that regular non-industry-connected working people can provide that support. So I expect policing the music she listened to and watched and thinking about anything but its musical and entertainment value wouldn't have made it onto their agenda....

It's interesting to look at her doings compared to the Duggars' anti-dance, anti-swivel, anti-etc obsessions. Gabby listened to the swivelers and enjoyed them and she wears lowcut slinky dresses. Yet she married with chastity and babies on her mind just like they're supposed to do and she clearly has ambition and goals and a serious work ethic into the bargain.....

Sounds to me like maybe that evil music and dancing may have been a positive influence instead of a negative one. 😁

Edited September 18, 2020 by Churchhoney

[Temperance]

1 hour ago, GeeGolly said:

Wow, Elvis's moving hips weren't allowed on TV back in the day and MJ took his dancing even farther, including grabbing his crotch. I know of parents who didn't allow their kids to listen to or watch MJ and religion had nothing to do with it.

When I was kid, Friends (the tv show) wasn't appropriate according to my Christian family. These people also had problems with Glee. Many conservative Christians including Duggar family friend Madison Nicole watch both. 

(In the case of MJ, I also suspect racism.) 

[Zella]

I think there's such a wide variety in what some Christians will find permissible and others don't that one can't really extrapolate or guess what any one family will permit or reject. It doesn't surprise me that Gabby's parents let her listen to Elvis and MJ any more that it doesn't surprise me when I hear about people like the Duggars who think any sort of music with a beat is evil.  

My Christian grandparents strongly dislike rock music. I don't remember them having any of Elvis's secular stuff, but they had his gossip music. They have some secular music, but nothing they consider trashy. They're not big music listeners, to be honest. My dad (their son) is not a religious man at all and exposed me to a wide variety of music. We never listened to any MJ because my dad thought he was a disgusting creep over the child molestation allegations. I'm 31, and I don't remember a time when those child molestation allegations weren't public knowledge.

I don't know if my dad listened to MJ before that, but I doubt it. He's not a pop kind of guy. I don't think his dislike of MJ had anything to do with race because he likes a lot of other African American musicians (more rock guys), but I am sure that is a factor for a lot of bigoted people too.

 

Edited September 19, 2020 by Zella

[emma675]

4 hours ago, emmawoodhouse said:

Her first crush was "young" Elvis. PAC reminds her of him (pretty eyes and jawline). 

I refuse to live in a world where Punchable Aunt Cade is compared to Elvis in any way. Period.

[emmawoodhouse]

I guess the senior Vuolos have decided that it's safe to fly. No mask, either.

 

[Westiepeach]

38 minutes ago, emmawoodhouse said:

I guess the senior Vuolos have decided that it's safe to fly. No mask, either.

 

Masks? Silly. Jesus will save them. He likes them better than us heathens.

[latetotheparty]

On 9/16/2020 at 10:52 PM, MichaelaRae said:

I'd argue it's intersectionalism - white privilege (in a country where being defined as white came with privilege) AND religious privilege (when the religion you practice is the majority religion and, hey look, the majority of people practicing it ALSO are white). There is an intersection of privilege and non-privilege, as well as privilege in one area and privilege in another area (and privilege in ANOTHER area). White ethnic privilege in America often comes with a lot of other intersectioning privilege with it. AND people who are privileged in one area are NOT privileged in others - hence, intersectionalism. But I'd argue that most Duggars, as they are living now and as they are presenting themselves, aren't suffering from much of it.

Very well said. ⭐️

[DangerousMinds]

What. A . Tool.

[Oldernowiser]

What’s he yammering on about now? I can’t even tell. I assume it’s food.

It’s telling that he’s a hundred times more excited about food or a new”lewk” than he ever seems to be about anything he’s learned in Jesus Shouter School for Boys.

[emmawoodhouse]

I tried to see what it was in his stories, but it's gone. Instead, he's yammering on about a seminar he's leading in a couple of weeks. How does GCC allow a student to lead seminars over more qualified staff members? I guess all that brown nosing is paying off. 🙄

[Zella]

What's the seminar topic?

Gourmet L.A. Eateries

Posing for Instagram 101

Intro to Pocket Squares

Being on Jim Bob's Tit, California Edition

[emmawoodhouse]

I wish. 😂

Sadly, it's just the book of James. 

[ginger90]

Jeremy’s speaking engagement:

 

https://www.gracechurchdawsonville.org/news/2020-bible-conference

[Churchhoney]

7 hours ago, emmawoodhouse said:

I tried to see what it was in his stories, but it's gone. Instead, he's yammering on about a seminar he's leading in a couple of weeks. How does GCC allow a student to lead seminars over more qualified staff members? I guess all that brown nosing is paying off. 🙄

In the pile of complaints that former seminary students and faculty made to the WASC accreditation board, many said that this kind of favoritism is typical of MacArthur. Opportunities, money, and getting degrees without doing the work drop into the hands of his personal connections and others he likes for whatever reason. So Jer's not just uncannily good at sucking up. He's good at picking the right people to suck up to, I guess.

[GeeGolly]

39 minutes ago, ginger90 said:

Jeremy’s speaking engagement:

 

https://www.gracechurchdawsonville.org/news/2020-bible-conference

It lists Jeremy as the featured speaker, yet no other speakers are listed. Is it just Jeremy?

[Mindthinkr]

12 hours ago, emmawoodhouse said:

I wish. 😂

Sadly, it's just the book of James. 

I didn’t know that Jinger’s brother wrote a book! 
(Just kidding)

Edited September 21, 2020 by Mindthinkr
Of all stupid things to do I spelled Jinger with a G!

[Churchhoney]

27 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

It lists Jeremy as the featured speaker, yet no other speakers are listed. Is it just Jeremy?

 

Well, the seminar announcement could be like the Laredo church website -- when it was managed by Jeremy in his first couple years there-- where there were clearly a whole lot of other people involved in running the church (who did get mentioned toward the end of the Jer's tenure when it appeared somebody else started running the site -- maybe somebody from the San Antonio planting church....). But on the website in Jer's early days there nobody but Jeremy (along with his parents, the godliest people he's ever known) was ever mentioned (including no members of the congregation).

Or the seminar could be an example of MacArthur's apparently typical treatment of his pets. The chance to present it is a resume builder for a student. So, with MacArthur running true to form, one of his pets gets the opportunity, no questions asked, and everybody else can go whistle up a rope as my relatives sometimes inexplicably said.

I'm betting on the second. But either one is plausible, I think. Very Christian, in both cases. Jer certainly wrote the flier, of course .... Note that his super-godly parents got a mention again. How about giving a tiny shout-out to the locals who'll be managing the event and providing the food? Naaahh..... That wouldn't glorify Him (by which I mean Jer.)

Edited September 21, 2020 by Churchhoney

[ginger90]

[Churchhoney]

1 minute ago, ginger90 said:

Oh, look, it's the Holy Goalie. OMG.

[QuinnInND]

 

[Zahdii]

1 hour ago, ginger90 said:

As quoted from the movie Twister:  He really is in love with himself. I thought it was just a summer thing.

58 minutes ago, QuinnInND said:

 

Yeah, right.  He's such a twit.

[Oldernowiser]

I just assumed the thing in his right hand was a cheeseburger. Turns out to be a Bible.

Did NOT see that coming...

[lookeyloo]

10 hours ago, QuinnInND said:

 

Just so happened...

[Churchhoney]

14 hours ago, ginger90 said:

Jeremy’s speaking engagement:

 

https://www.gracechurchdawsonville.org/news/2020-bible-conference

"Mr. Jeremy Vuolo's: bio blurb == 

"The youngest of three chil­dren, Jere­my was born in Philadel­phia, Penn­syl­va­nia to Charles & Diana Vuo­lo. Two of the god­liest peo­ple he has ever known, his moth­er and father raised him and his sib­lings faith­ful­ly in the dis­ci­pline and instruc­tion of the Lord.

"Although he is uncer­tain as to the exact time of his con­ver­sion, Jere­my was saved from a life of hypocrisy and hid­den sin dur­ing his child­hood years.

"Fol­low­ing his life­long pas­sion, Jere­my pur­sued a pro­fes­sion­al career as a soc­cer play­er, play­ing in Fin­land, New York, and Texas. How­ev­er, just four years after sign­ing pro­fes­sion­al­ly, the Lord called Jere­my out of sports and into the pas­toral ministry."

Is it just me or is it kind of unusual for someone who's 33 years old and married with kids to focus a professional biography on being "the youngest of three children"?

Also -- He "was saved from a life of hypocrisy and hidden sin." Interesting choice of transgressions there, Jer. It almost makes me wonder if you doth protest too much? 

Also -- "The Lord" called you "out of sports" by arranging for you to sit on a bench for two seasons......Interesting way of calling somebody. 

I find this blurb kind of odd all around. (And what's with this indeterminate date of salvation, Jer? Your wife and David Waller both know their dates! Are you sure you were paying enough attention? 😈 )

[iwantcookies]

No pocket square?

This couple is insufferable. I can’t stand how phony they are. 

[Zella]

44 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

"Mr. Jeremy Vuolo's: bio blurb == 

"The youngest of three chil­dren, Jere­my was born in Philadel­phia, Penn­syl­va­nia to Charles & Diana Vuo­lo. Two of the god­liest peo­ple he has ever known, his moth­er and father raised him and his sib­lings faith­ful­ly in the dis­ci­pline and instruc­tion of the Lord.

"Although he is uncer­tain as to the exact time of his con­ver­sion, Jere­my was saved from a life of hypocrisy and hid­den sin dur­ing his child­hood years.

"Fol­low­ing his life­long pas­sion, Jere­my pur­sued a pro­fes­sion­al career as a soc­cer play­er, play­ing in Fin­land, New York, and Texas. How­ev­er, just four years after sign­ing pro­fes­sion­al­ly, the Lord called Jere­my out of sports and into the pas­toral ministry."

Is it just me or is it kind of unusual for someone who's 33 years old and married with kids to focus a professional biography on being "the youngest of three children"?

Also -- He "was saved from a life of hypocrisy and hidden sin." Interesting choice of transgressions there, Jer. It almost makes me wonder if you doth protest too much? 

Also -- "The Lord" called you "out of sports" by arranging for you to sit on a bench for two seasons......Interesting way of calling somebody. 

I find this blurb kind of odd all around. (And what's with this indeterminate date of salvation, Jer? Your wife and David Waller both know their dates! Are you sure you were paying enough attention? 😈 )

That's some weird shit. I also wondered about the youngest thing. Who mentions that in a professional bio? I am the youngest--loved being the youngest--BEING THE YOUNGEST IS THE BEST!--but I would never mention it in a professional bio unless I was a speaker on birth order. 

I also raised my eyebrow at him not knowing when he was saved. That's . . . such an essential moment for most Christians. I am nowhere near as religious as these people, and I can tell you where and when (not date but age/year and time of year) I was saved. I actually offhand cannot think of another Christian I know who can't tell you this, let alone one who claims to be a pastor.

Edited September 22, 2020 by Zella

[Absolom]

35 minutes ago, Zella said:

1 hour ago, Churchhoney said:

"Mr. Jeremy Vuolo's: bio blurb == 

"The youngest of three chil­dren, Jere­my was born in Philadel­phia, Penn­syl­va­nia to Charles & Diana Vuo­lo. Two of the god­liest peo­ple he has ever known, his moth­er and father raised him and his sib­lings faith­ful­ly in the dis­ci­pline and instruc­tion of the Lord.

"Although he is uncer­tain as to the exact time of his con­ver­sion, Jere­my was saved from a life of hypocrisy and hid­den sin dur­ing his child­hood years.

"Fol­low­ing his life­long pas­sion, Jere­my pur­sued a pro­fes­sion­al career as a soc­cer play­er, play­ing in Fin­land, New York, and Texas. How­ev­er, just four years after sign­ing pro­fes­sion­al­ly, the Lord called Jere­my out of sports and into the pas­toral ministry."

Is it just me or is it kind of unusual for someone who's 33 years old and married with kids to focus a professional biography on being "the youngest of three children"?

Also -- He "was saved from a life of hypocrisy and hidden sin." Interesting choice of transgressions there, Jer. It almost makes me wonder if you doth protest too much? 

Also -- "The Lord" called you "out of sports" by arranging for you to sit on a bench for two seasons......Interesting way of calling somebody. 

I find this blurb kind of odd all around. (And what's with this indeterminate date of salvation, Jer? Your wife and David Waller both know their dates! Are you sure you were paying enough attention? 😈 )

Read more  

That's some weird shit. I also wondered about the youngest thing. Who mentions that in a professional bio? I am the youngest--loved being the youngest--BEING THE YOUNGEST IS THE BEST!--but I would never mention it in a professional bio unless I was a speaker on birth order. 

I also raised my eyebrow at him not knowing when he was saved. That's . . . such an essential moment for most Christians. I am nowhere near as religious as these people, and I can tell you where and when (not date but age/year and time of year) I was saved. I actually offhand cannot think of another Christian I know who can't tell you this, let alone one who claims to be a pastor.

I raised eyebrows at that also.  Even if people don't remember exactly, they usually make up at least an age and have some kind of story/testimony.  For me it was July when I was 5 the last day of Vacation Bible School when we had a pastor basically bully all of us who couldn't claim a time for when we were saved to recite "the prayer."  Which is an odd story for a Catholic, but my aunt was always taking me off to religious events and since I enjoyed the singing and crafts of VBS, I didn't tell my mother all the religious details.  

That Jeremy can't point to any age, altar call, or something is really peculiar.  Like I said, they'll fabricate something if necessary or guess is perhaps a better way to say it.  

[farmgal4]

42 minutes ago, Zella said:

That's some weird shit. I also wondered about the youngest thing. Who mentions that in a professional bio? I am the youngest--loved being the youngest--BEING THE YOUNGEST IS THE BEST!--but I would never mention it in a professional bio unless I was a speaker on birth order. 

I also raised my eyebrow at him not knowing when he was saved. That's . . . such an essential moment for most Christians. I am nowhere near as religious as these people, and I can tell you where and when (not date but age/year and time of year) I was saved. I actually offhand cannot think of another Christian I know who can't tell you this, let alone one who claims to be a pastor.

My thoughts exactly regarding salvation.  I don’t think he’s ever truly been saved.  JMHO

[Zella]

2 minutes ago, Absolom said:

I raised eyebrows at that also.  Even if people don't remember exactly, they usually make up at least an age and have some kind of story/testimony.  For me it was July when I was 5 the last day of Vacation Bible School when we had a pastor basically bully all of us who couldn't claim a time for when we were saved to recite "the prayer."  Which is an odd story for a Catholic, but my aunt was always taking me off to religious events and since I enjoyed the singing and crafts of VBS, I didn't tell my mother all the religious details.  

That Jeremy can't point to any age, altar call, or something is really peculiar.  Like I said, they'll fabricate something if necessary or guess is perhaps a better way to say it.  

Yep mine was the summer when I was 7 (1997) at a riverside baptism for other people. I asked to be baptized, too, and it actually prompted a discussion among the Pentecostal adults who were present if I was old enough to know what I was saying--which, to be honest, I resented a little LOL--before they consented to it. 

I will admit that I do pause and wonder if it was when I was 7 or 8 that summer since I have a summer birthday. But I am pretty sure it was before I'd had my birthday, and I can date the year specifically because it was the year in between my parents divorcing (summer 1996) and their remarriages (early 1998). And I can't tell you the exact spot on the river, but I know the river. 

I think for a lot of people, as you say, they may fill in details since our minds tend to do that with memories--my brother and I have frequently debated what we actually remember and what we think we remember from our childhoods and marveled at where our memories strongly differ--but becoming saved is usually treated as a big deal at the time (by yourself and/or other people), so I think it something is going to stick in your mind about it. 

9 minutes ago, farmgal4 said:

My thoughts exactly regarding salvation.  I don’t think he’s ever truly been saved.  JMHO

I think you're right! It would certainly explain some of his apparent apathy toward it. It makes me wonder even more why he's bothering going to seminary or trying to be a pastor. 

[emmawoodhouse]

Maybe this is why he can't pronounce Jesus properly. ,😇

[Zella]

8 minutes ago, emmawoodhouse said:

Maybe this is why he can't pronounce Jesus properly. ,😇

I've always felt like Jeremy was a coward at heart. I wonder if he felt some sort of family pressure to do this since his own father was a pastor and he's just too spineless to be like, "you know what, no--I want to be a gourmand and a fashionista!" 

I still feel like he must sincerely hold some of the beliefs that are preached in MacArthur's church, though. Otherwise, why, of all seminaries you could pick, would you choose that one?

[Oldernowiser]

11 minutes ago, Zella said:

Otherwise, why, of all seminaries you could pick, would you choose that one?

It’s near Hollywood?

[Zella]

1 minute ago, Oldernowiser said:

It’s near Hollywood?

So are about a dozen other seminaries, though, that don't have ties to His Royal MacArthur. 

Edited September 22, 2020 by Zella

[Oldernowiser]

Wow, really? Who knew? Of all the things I associate with Hollywood, seminaries would be pretty much dead last.

Next I’ll find out the second major seminary cluster is in Reno.

[Zella]

6 minutes ago, Oldernowiser said:

Wow, really? Who knew? Of all the things I associate with Hollywood, seminaries would be pretty much dead last.

Next I’ll find out the second major seminary cluster is in Reno.

Yeah, google "seminaries in Los Angeles" and click on the Google Map that pops up. There's a pretty good number of them. 

[awaken]

“saved from a life of hypocrisy and hid­den sin dur­ing his child­hood years.“ 

Wow. What on earth was he up to during childhood that it was filled with hypocrisy and hidden sin?  Either that is very sad and twisted, or serious hyperbole!

[GeeGolly]

Not having ever been saved, Jeremy's quote kind of makes sense to me. Like it was more of an evolution than a moment. But again, I'm just a confused heathen.

[Churchhoney]

12 hours ago, Oldernowiser said:

Wow, really? Who knew? Of all the things I associate with Hollywood, seminaries would be pretty much dead last.

Next I’ll find out the second major seminary cluster is in Reno.

Beginning in the early 20th century, southern California became the center of evangelical activity, power, money and influence in the U.S., a position it held undisputed for many decades before things kind of dispersed. The infrastructure of that era still exists there, though. 

Edited September 22, 2020 by Churchhoney

[Churchhoney]

1 hour ago, GeeGolly said:

Not having ever been saved, Jeremy's quote kind of makes sense to me. Like it was more of an evolution than a moment. But again, I'm just a confused heathen.

Chuck Vuolo is Calvinist and a Calvinist from the north to boot. And I wonder whether he actually started out more in the mainline Protestant Calvinist tradition before the last couple/few decades, when evangelicals like the Southern Baptists have been embracing Calvinism to a hitherto unimaginable degree. 

Chuck definitely has hung out with megachurch and Baptist Calvinist people (a complete oxymoron just a few decades ago) recently.

But mainilne Protestant churches, like Catholicism and heathenism(!), generally put little (or no) emphasis on a specific conversion experience or a specific experience/moment of being saved. Instead, the emphasis is on -- as you say -- an evolution and on going to church regularly, reading the Bible regularly, praying regularly and 'growing in the faith" and learning in the faith over time. You get "confirmed" -- But in mainline Protestant churches that's not an individual moment of high emotion or some kind of sudden takeover by the holy spirit or the like. It tends to be a statement and decision of faith that kids make publicly and in a group, usually after the group has gone through a class together.  

Because Chuck is a northerner and a Calvinist, I've often wondered whether he only gravitated toward the more evangelical-in-the-Baptist-sense variety of Calvinism recently as interest in it has grown among southern Baptists, and more emotion-and seized-by-the-spirit-type Calvinist megachurches have sprung up around the country.

He may have felt more of an affinity to it than to more mainline Calvinism if he's temperamentally and politically conservative, since the mainline churches, including Calvinist ones, have gradually come to embrace much more liberal ideas, such as women's full equality, for example. And we know Chuck opposes that strongly. One of his major interests is complementarianism -- He preaches often about woman's place and what he says are biblical injunctions against women taking positions of leadership and so on. That alone would put him out of step with most mainline Calvinist groups. 

And Chuck may also have been drawn to the southern-Baptist-like strain of Calvinism by the fact that it's been the growing part of U.S. Christianity -- and thus where the action and the energy and the salaries are. 

If that's the case, then Jer wouldn't have been in the evangelical tradition as a child and wouldn't have been encouraged by his parents or pastors to have and record as uniquely significant a specific salvation moment. 

But now that he's running in evangelical circles, he feels like he has to talk in those terms to fit in. If that's the case -- and I think it's likely that it is -- he should probably just skip trying to explain that in a sentence in his bio. 

I think this probably is the story, but given the interests that I actually see evidence of in Jer, I'm not convinced that he's actually thought much of this through. 

Edited September 22, 2020 by Churchhoney

[Zella]

I know anecdotal personal experience is not authoritarive, but the vocally Calvinist contingent that I knew at C of O was largely Northern Calvinists. There is one guy I know who was from the South, but the others were from Illinois, northern Missouri, or (especially) Michigan. They were not Southern transplants, either. The Michigan kids were all Dutch. And all of the ones I encountered still put great stock into their own personal story of salvation, even if the realities were really mundane.

But even if that truly wasn't emphasized in Jeremy's upbringing, it just reinforced how terrible the dude is at business if he can't read his current audience and realize he needs a story like that. It always astonishes me when I remember he has a business degree.

[doodlebug]

10 hours ago, awaken said:

“saved from a life of hypocrisy and hid­den sin dur­ing his child­hood years.“ 

Wow. What on earth was he up to during childhood that it was filled with hypocrisy and hidden sin?  Either that is very sad and twisted, or serious hyperbole!

Hypocrisy and hidden sin makes it sound like ole Jer was attracted to boys, not girls and was planning a well-closeted life before Jesus stepped in and  fixed him.  Then again, is 'hidden sin' fundie code for masturbation?  So many options.

I'm Catholic, no moment of salvation for me.  Because of ridiculous 1950's rules (my mom wasn't born a Catholic and was married before my Dad); my parents couldn't join a parish (my Dad was on the outs for marrying a divorcee).  My Grandma, big in the Ladies Guild and the Sodality, pulled some strings so the hip young priest at her parish agreed to baptize me and my sisters so my older sister could attend Catholic schools.  I was 5 and I do remember being baptized, my older sister and I were irate because he got our bangs all wet and we let him know it, too.  There's a part of the ceremony back in the olden days where the priest puts a dab of salt on the tongue of the Baptee (?).  Our lovely Father Danko said, 'I'm skipping the salt because I might lose a finger.'

Edited September 22, 2020 by doodlebug

[Temperance]

6 hours ago, Churchhoney said:

Beginning in the early 20th century, southern California became the center of evangelical activity, power, money and influence in the U.S., a position it held undisputed for many decades before things kind of dispersed. The infrastructure of that era still exists there, though. 

Some fundie-lites I know moved to California, and they became fundier which surprised us.

[Churchhoney]

2 hours ago, Zella said:

I know anecdotal personal experience is not authoritarive, but the vocally Calvinist contingent that I knew at C of O was largely Northern Calvinists. There is one guy I know who was from the South, but the others were from Illinois, northern Missouri, or (especially) Michigan. They were not Southern transplants, either. The Michigan kids were all Dutch. And all of the ones I encountered still put great stock into their own personal story of salvation, even if the realities were really mundane.

But even if that truly wasn't emphasized in Jeremy's upbringing, it just reinforced how terrible the dude is at business if he can't read his current audience and realize he needs a story like that. It always astonishes me when I remember he has a business degree.

Yeah, I was definitely overgeneralizing. There are personal-salvation Calvinists in the north, too. ....The Presbyterian Church of America has a lot of churches in the midwest, especially, and I think the Missouri Synod of the Lutherans actually started in the midwest somewhere. 

But I've wondered whether Chuck may not have been originally the other kind of northern Calvinist because I've looked at and listened to a lot of his stuff but have never seen any evidence that he or Diana or Jer has any kind of personal-salvation story or talks in those terms, even though Chuck's now clearly in the evangelical fold when it comes to his theology and attitudes generally and has been for quite a while. 

On Jer and his business savvy (not) -- I wonder if he was as casual about his homework there as he appears to be in seminary? .... And he probably could have gotten away with it, since his colleges wanted him as a soccer player so they may have looked the other way when he half-assed his schoolwork. .....He never seems to mention his college academic life or his business degree (and half a business degree)  And, as many people here have mentioned, he clearly passed up the chance to finish his MBA online at Syracuse -- a pretty strong MBA school -- which you wouldn't do if you cared about having that degree or were interested in the work. 

 

Edited September 22, 2020 by Churchhoney

[laurakaye]

2 hours ago, Zella said:

I know anecdotal personal experience is not authoritarive, but the vocally Calvinist contingent that I knew at C of O was largely Northern Calvinists. There is one guy I know who was from the South, but the others were from Illinois, northern Missouri, or (especially) Michigan. They were not Southern transplants, either. The Michigan kids were all Dutch. And all of the ones I encountered still put great stock into their own personal story of salvation, even if the realities were really mundane.

I live near Calvin University in Michigan.  And yes, they are overwhelmingly Dutch. 🙂

[Zella]

2 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

Yeah, I was definitely overgeneralizing. There are personal-salvation Calvinists in the north, too. ....The Presbyterian Church of America has a lot of churches in the midwest, especially, and I think the Missouri Synod of the Lutherans actually started in the midwest somewhere. 

But I've wondered whether Chuck may not have been originally the other kind of northern Calvinist because I've looked at and listened to a lot of his stuff but have never seen any evidence that he or Diana or Jer has any kind of personal-salvation story or talks in those terms, even though Chuck's now clearly in the evangelical fold when it comes to his theology and attitudes generally and has been for quite a while. 

On Jer and his business savvy (not) -- I wonder if he was as casual about his homework there as he appears to be in seminary? .... And he probably could have gotten away with it, since his colleges wanted him as a soccer player so they may have looked the other way when he half-assed his schoolwork. .....He never seems to mention his college academic life or his business degree (and half a business degree)  And, as many people here have mentioned, he clearly passed up the chance to finish his MBA at Syracuse -- a pretty strong MBA school -- online -- which you wouldn't do if you cared about having that degree or were interested in the work. 

 

Yeah I'm also wondering if there was something about COFO that attracted a specific brand of Northern Calvinist? Now that I am thinking about it, all the hipster Calvinist dudes I know and compare Jeremy unfavorably to were Midwestern dudes from Illinois and Michigan (with one exception). I feel like a greater majority of the student body were Ozark kids, who tended to come from a much more Southern evangelical non-Calvinist perspective, and there tended to be some real conflict over the chapel service because of it. The chapel service was billed as non-denominational, but it was, for all intense and purposes, a Presbyterian service. A lot of the Southern evangelical kids didn't like it at all. I wasn't raised particularly religiously but did go to a series of Southern Baptist and Pentecostal churches for a period of time as a child, and it was definitely unlike any church experience I'd ever had. In fact, I'm having a hard time thinking of any of the Southern kids who really were active in the philosophy/religion department in comparison to the others. I think if they felt strongly about it, they were more likely to be at another religious college more in line with their views.  

There was a small group of Catholic kids who attended, and I never heard their opinions of the chapel services or even really the school experience. I had a good friend who went there who's Catholic (and actually is my only friend from there who is still an active churchgoer), but as a commuter, he was exempt from the chapel requirement. I've talked to other people who from the very conservative Latin Mass school of Catholicism, and I was told they weren't allowed to attend C of O by their families, so I assume the Catholics who did attend were more moderate in general. 

All that's really just preamble to saying it's really hard to get a read on Jeremy. But his background in general does make him seem like an odd fit for the particular brand of Christianity he is espousing. I guess if I thought he was a true believer who had drunk the Kool-Aid hard, it would make more sense because there would at least be a misguided sincerity there. But I don't get the impression he really is very passionate about anything but his interests in maybe clothing. And even then, he seems to have a very superficial interest in that. He can't seem to go beyond, "Don't look I cool in this?" 

[laurakaye]

I see Jeremy as a preacher who cares far, far less about his message than he does about his brand.  He probably takes twice the time to choose just the right pocket square than he does putting together a sermon.  And when he does get up to the pulpit, his eyes are constantly scanning the congregation for those dastardly women who might find his brand of pretention "hot."  And all the while, he's trying not to lock eyes with Aunt Cade in the third row, second from the end, who came to hear him preach and whose hair looks particularly fetching that day.

[Churchhoney]

15 minutes ago, Zella said:

 

All that's really just preamble to saying it's really hard to get a read on Jeremy. But his background in general does make him seem like an odd fit for the particular brand of Christianity he is espousing. I guess if I thought he was a true believer who had drunk the Kool-Aid hard, it would make more sense because there would at least be a misguided sincerity there. But I don't get the impression he really is very passionate about anything but his interests in maybe clothing. And even then, he seems to have a very superficial interest in that. He can't seem to go beyond, "Don't look I cool in this?" 

Yeah, I agree. I think the trappings of this and the fact that he guessed it could be an easy-for-him route to some things he wants are his motivation. I just never get the impression that he's terribly interested in faith or theology -- and certainly not pastoring -- no matter what he pretends. I truly think he picked pastoring and the MacArthur avenue into pastoring because

he saw it as a chance to become Dad's golden child;

just like being a pro athlete it involves being highly visible to some people and having a crowd hang on your every word;

he already knew some of the language (I was about to say "concepts," but I'm not convinced he knows any concepts) of evangelical-brand Calvinism from being around his dad and the guys his dad knows so he could sort of talk that particular game already;

the chance to make your living mainly by jawing at people and lording it over them and telling them what to do;

the emphasis on MEN MEN MEN MEN and the conviction that women are different and definitely lesser in this theology;

LA!!!!;

and the expensive suits and ties and the aura of power, money, intellectualism, and high-falutin' I'm-the-American-elite-and-I'm-in-charge-and-who-the-heck-are-you? that MacArthur's pretty successfully cloaked himself in and turned into adulation and cash over the years. 

 

Edited September 22, 2020 by Churchhoney

[GeeGolly]

If my read on Jeremy is correct, what might be seen as a lack of commitment or passion, is really a lack of confidence. Don't get too close to anyone, including parishioners, because if he does he may be found out. Don't look too studious, because if he fails, he'll be found out.

Posers are so superficial, they fear one wrong move will blow their cover. Probably one of the reasons Jeremy dresses as a GQ grandpa - he needs to look the part, using his pocket squares as a shield of protection.