S06.E10: The Winds of Winter

[Enigma X]

Whatever the reaseon that Catelyn acted like a bitch toward Jon, I hated her for it. Many people try to explain why she felt the way she did. I honestly don't care what her motivations were. She was an ass to an innocent child.

Edited June 28, 2016 by Enigma X

[ulkis]

I never hated Cat for disliking Jon, and he's probably my favorite character. I feel like without her dislike, she would have been just this cardboard cutout perfect mom character.  

Plus, in the context of their world, Cat was not particularly bad to him. She mostly just seemed to avoid him, and all his siblings loved him except for Sansa so she obviously (well, at least I think it's obvious) wasn't talking down Jon to them even if they could tell she didn't like him. She could have been worse to him and she could have been better.

I don't blame Ned for not sending Jon away to be fostered. He probably didn't feel it was safe and wanted him under his watch. I do blame him for not telling Jon the truth before he was sent to the Wall.

Edited June 28, 2016 by ulkis

[Nanrad]

10 minutes ago, Enigma X said:

Whatever the reaseon that Catelyn acted like a bitch toward Jon, I hated her for it. Many people try to explain why she felt the way she did. I honestly don't care what her motivations were. She was an ass to an innocent child.

As much as I like Cat, this is the reason I originally disliked her. After understanding the context of her dislike, it made sense, but I still didn't like how she treated Jon. 

[sashabear21]

I think deep down Ned knew what would happen if Jon's true parentage were revealed before he was old enough to defend himself.  While Robert made a big show of loving Lyanna, I doubt he would have hesitated to kill Jon as a child knowing that a.) he was a Targaryen, and b.) a constant reminder that Lyanna may have chosen Rhaegar over him.  The only one in the series that seems to have a bad thing to say about Rhaegar is Robert, and it could be that he had to make up his own narrative because he couldn't deal with it that Lyanna may have run off quite willingly.  Thus Ned had to keep him safe and his origins a secret from even his own wife in order to keep him safe and keep his promise to his sister.  He couldn't take that risk, and Ned seemed like the kind of guy that probably just started to think of Jon as his own after awhile.  

[slf]

11 minutes ago, ulkis said:

I never hated Cat for disliking Jon, and he's probably my favorite character. I feel like without her dislike, she would have been just this cardboard cutout perfect mom character.  

Plus, in the context of their world, Cat was not particularly bad to him. She mostly just seemed to avoid him, and all his siblings loved him except for Sansa so she obviously (well, at least I think it's obvious) wasn't talking down Jon to them even if they could tell she didn't like him. She could have been worse to him and she could have been better.

I don't blame Ned for not sending Jon away to be fostered. He probably didn't feel it was safe and wanted him under his watch. I do blame him for not telling Jon the truth before he was sent to the Wall.

Yeah, the degree to which Catelyn was "abusive" to Jon has been hugely overstated by the fandom. She could've been nicer, I suppose, but she hardly beat the child. The worst thing she ever did, really, was tell him she wished it had been him that fell and not Bran- and yes, I'm giving her a pass. While it was an ugly thing to say, she was sick with grief and worry for her son, she hasn't slept, and she clearly felt remorse for it later.

[bluvelvet]

My memory is fuzzy, did LF make a comment to Sansa about the North not following a woman? I just thought it was strange since House Mormant is being governed by a 10 year old female who obviously has the respect of the Northern lords. So technically they could have rallied behind Sansa..

[Valmarmar]

22 hours ago, MissLulu said:

and who was Rhaegar to Dani exactly? 

Her brother.  

[sportsgirl]

6 hours ago, One More Time said:

re: Jon's parentage.

It was shown right from the beginning that Ned and Catlyn loved and respected each other.  I cannot believe he brought infant Jon back with the story that he was Jon's father courtesy of a barmaid.  He had to have known that as good and forgiving and pragmatic Cat was she was going to have a serious case of resentment and dislike, if not actual hatred for the boy. And she admitted that she felt hatred for the child. I tried to put myself in Ned's shoes but I can't see putting  my spouse thru that and not telling the person I loved most in the world the truth. I think Cat would have kept the secret and it might have made Jon's childhood a little smoother.

I find this to be one of the real tragedies of the show. It, to me, is a true mark of Ned's honor and sacrifice that he let his own name be besmirched, not just publicly, but for own wife, whom he loved and respected, in order to protect his sister's son. He had to have known how Jon's presence in their household hurt -- and continued to hurt -- Catlyn, and it probably killed him to keep the secret from her, but he did. Because that was what he had promised to do. Ned's moves were never the smartest or the most strategic -- which drove me nuts about his character -- but they were always the most honorable. Other men would have come up with a different story or revealed the truth to their wives, but not Ned. From his perspective, making life easier for Cat or Jon would have made them less safe, and would have meant breaking his word to Lyanna.

[LittleIggy]

I watched the episode again and loved it even more. I wonder who the people were at Cersei's coronation since most of her court was blown to smithereens at the Sept. Maybe she put out flyers saying "Put on your best clothes and come to the Throne Room. There will be FREE food and drink  following a brief ceremony." ;-)

[AGuyToo]

1 hour ago, bluvelvet said:

My memory is fuzzy, did LF make a comment to Sansa about the North not following a woman? I just thought it was strange since House Mormant is being governed by a 10 year old female who obviously has the respect of the Northern lords. So technically they could have rallied behind Sansa..

LF said the opposite. He told Sansa that the North would rather follow a trueborn daughter of Ned and Catelyn Stark, born at Winterfell, than a motherless bastard, born in the south. He was wrong.

Edited June 28, 2016 by AGuyToo

[Lady S.]

34 minutes ago, bluvelvet said:

My memory is fuzzy, did LF make a comment to Sansa about the North not following a woman? I just thought it was strange since House Mormant is being governed by a 10 year old female who obviously has the respect of the Northern lords. So technically they could have rallied behind Sansa..

He asked her who they should turn to, "a trueborn daughter of Ned and Catelyn Stark born in Winterfell or a motherless bastard born in the South?" Sansa gave no reply, but earlier she had refused the master bedroom, which I don't think is the action of someone who wants to be the Queen. I think she's ambivalent about her own ambitions after everything she's been through. The North will maybe accept a ruling lady/Queen, but she probably has to speak for her own rights before anyone else would do it for her. Lyanna is not shy at all about speaking for herself, but I don't think Sansa even knows what to say because she's not sure what she wants.

Btw, whatever logistical reasons have kept Ghost offscreen, I'm pretty sure he is back at Winterfell because declaring Jon "the White Wolf" doesn't make much sense to me unless they've actually seen his albino direwolf.

Now that I think of it, I think Pycelle would have died in the sept anyway. I assume that's what he was getting ready for, to join Uncle Kevan there. These official events always have every member of the small council and Pycelle has never failed to make an appearance. So there didn't need to be a special plan to off him before the explosion, but Cersei just wanted him to die alone murdered by a bunch of street urchins. I guess he just annoyed that much that he deserved a special death.

Something else I noticed on re-watch, Ser Kevan was trying to push Mace forward to get back but he kept turning back, refusing to leave without his children, who were blocked by the Faith Militant. The Lord Oaf loved his family more than Cersei ever could. RIP the last loving (onscreen) father in Westeros. 

ALSO CAN WE TALK ABOUT HOW THE WHIRLYGIGS IN THE CITADEL LIBRARY MATCH THE WHIRLYGIGS IN THE OPENING CREDITS.


 

[LittleIggy]

8 hours ago, Cyranetta said:

From what I recall from a previous ep they were originally Varys' "little birds" who were left behind when he moved on to Essos.

They should be renamed the Angry Birds!

[MissLucas]

3 hours ago, Lady S. said:

Btw, whatever logistical reasons have kept Ghost offscreen, I'm pretty sure he is back at Winterfell because declaring Jon "the White Wolf" doesn't make much sense to me unless they've actually seen his albino direwolf.

 

Traditionally bastards were allowed to carry their fathers' sigil but with reversed colors. So Jon's sigil will be a white wolf on a grey background. (Which means him getting the albino pup that as the runt of the litter had been hidden underneath its dead mother's corpes was never just a coincidence.)

Someone posted the clip of Catelyn talking to Talisa about Jon in a thread somewhere. She told Talisa how she had prayed to the gods to take Jon away from her life. And when it looked as if baby Jon was about to die from pox she was so taken aback by the thought that her hatred had condemned him to death that she made all sorts of promises, that she would love him, that she would ask Ned to legitimize him etc. Promises she wasn't able to keep in the end. She admits that she considers this the source of the Stark's horrible situation.

Quote

And everything that's happened since then all this horror that's come to my family it's all because I couldn't love a motherless child.

I never liked the character much but I think this scene was probably the best scene she ever had. Jon was not just a constant reminder of her husband's supposed infidelity but also of her own dark side and her broken promises to the gods.

Ned probably should have had Jon fostered elsewhere - this seems to have been the tradition. That he did not was unusual and that's why people kept bringing it up. But he had made a promise to his sister to look after her child and being Ned Stark that meant to him to bring up the boy by himself. He was probably also concerned that sooner or later someone would find out the truth so he wanted to keep Jon close by.

The one thing I could never figure out was why he did not come up with a better lie. Like claiming Jon to be the orphan child of a simple soldier who had saved his life in battle and he now felt honor-bound to raise the boy as his own. In pseudo-feudal society there are plenty of possible scenarios why someone is raising another man's child in his home.

Edited June 28, 2016 by MissLucas

[riley702]

Well, what would he say when it became obvious the child looked more like the Starks than Robb Stark himself? He has to explain away the Stark looks, which were apparently stronger than the Targaryen silver hair and delicate features (or however Lady Olenna described them to Margaery*).

ETA: Found it. Olenna describes her Targaryen intended as having a "pretty little ferret face and ludicrous silver hair"

Edited June 28, 2016 by riley702

[ElectricBoogaloo]

17 hours ago, Luckylyn said:

Jon and Sansa could be a great team.  She may be better at the political side of things while Jon is the seasoned warrior who can inspire others to follow him.  Jon also is great at seeing the bigger picture and getting what the real threat is.  Will Sansa work with Jon to handle the threat from Little Finger or will she act on her own to eliminate the threat?  What happens to Littlefinger's power base if Robin marries and his wife takes control since Robin isn't competent to lead?   Still, I don't know if Sansa would be willing to leave Winterfell at this point after all she has been through to get back to it.

 

I don't think that Littlefinger would let Robin marry anyone who he didn't vet himself. Robin totally worships Littlefinger so on the off chance that Robin found someone willing to marry him while LF is still at Winterfell, I'm pretty sure LF would ride straight back to the Vale and talk him out of it. If there's anything LF excels at, it's manipulating people to do what he wants. I think he probably has another year or two of Robin totally listening to him. Once he gets a little older and the hormones hit, LF might have more difficulty steering Robin toward someone he (LF) approves of but honestly, I don't see Littlefinger letting Robin live much longer. An accident is just waiting to befall that kid once LF has absolutely no more use for him.

17 hours ago, RCharter said:

I suspect Cersei will have a totally different version of events about how Tommen died.  A self-serving version that makes Jaime hate the wrong person because he still sees some goodness in that lunatic.

What I'm really curious about is how Cersei presented both the wildfire and Tommen's death to everyone else. Obviously everyone knows about both events but is Cersei taking credit for masterminding the wildfire explosion? On the one hand, that would give her a lot of power because people would be afraid of what else she's capable of (and explain why no one is opposing her taking the Iron Throne - they know that bitch is crazy!). On the other hand, it would make a lot of people hate her. Olenna knows that Cersei was behind the wildfire, but Olenna is much smarter than the average person in Westeros so it's possible that she just figured it out on her own. If Cersei is pretending that she had nothing to do with the wildfire, then she can sell the story to everyone about how Tommen was heartbroken over losing Margaery and couldn't live without her. But if she is publicly admitting she ordered the explosion, is there any way for her to explain Tommen's death in a way that doesn't implicate herself?

17 hours ago, RedHawk said:

I don't understand why people say Jon's "not really" a Stark. Both lines of descent matter in Westeros -- mother and father. 

He's Lyanna Stark's son, so he is a Stark, and his father was a Targaryen, so he has a strong claim to both the North (through his mother) and to the Iron Throne. Bran has a stronger claim to the North as the son of a Stark male, and perhaps Sansa as the daughter of a Stark male. The thing is that I don't think either of them want to rule the North. Sansa seems to feel Jon is the better choice of ruler, and I guess we'll see how Bran feels next season but something tells me he will realize he has no experience for that particular job and his talents obviously lie elsewhere.

ITA - even though all the kids carry their fathers' last names, no one pretends that the Stark kids aren't also Tullys. Even before the truth about Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen came out, it was clear that they were considered Lannisters as well as Baratheons.

16 hours ago, BigBeagle said:

Of course Tyrion is in at least a little bit of love with Dany. After all, she is one of the few people in the world to look past "The Imp" and see the impressive gifts he brings to the table. Not only does she understand this, she also appreciates it to the degree of naming him her most trusted advisor. Who wouldn't fall in love with someone like that?

ITA - Dany may be the first person since Shay who treats Tyrion as a person, not a dwarf, so of course it makes him feel good. Can't blame a guy for feeling a little schmoopie about that!

15 hours ago, annsterg said:

Arya's revenge on the Freys was almost exactly as I imagined it would be. It would be even better if she takes Walder Frey's face and becomes him and wreaks even more havoc from inside, but that's probably a bit too much. Did she kill that serving maid to take the face or did she grab a few in the Hall of Faces?

Walder didn't recognize the serving girl so I thought that Arya took that face from the hall (although I would also believe that Walder is such an arrogant ass that he doesn't pay attention to any of his servants). You'd think you would have to do something to keep those faces looking all fresh looking, but I still remember Jaqen changing faces right before he left Arya to return to Braavo so apparently you can just keep them all smushed up in a pocket and they're totally fine.

[insubordination]

All day I have been trying to motivate myself by highlighting my dishonour a la lady Mormont (I'm a teacher).

You weren't supposed to hit the snooze button more than once, but you refused the call!

You were supposed to do your marking, but you refused the call!

You're not supposed to waste time on online forums, but *still* you refused the call!

House Mormont remembers.

 

Seriously, how good was that speech? It could have been rubbish in the hands of an actor who couldn't deliver it in a commanding way. Incredible!

Edited June 28, 2016 by insubordination

[darkestboy]

That finale was hands down one of my favourite episodes of anything.

Cersei is just pure insanity. She blew up the entire sept, killed Margaery, Loras, the High Septon and countless others so she could survive. That said, I have no sympathy for the High Septon, Lancel, Pycelle or Septa Unella though.

Not to mention her actions directly led to Tommen killing himself as well. Cersei doesn't deserve to rule. She's the mad queen in the making and even Jaime could see that as well. He wasn't pleased to see her on the throne at the end.

On the plus side, Cersei's enemies are amassing everywhere. Olenna teaming up with Ellaria and the Sand Snakes was unexpected but interesting and having them working with Daenerys was also a great twist.

I quite liked Dany and Tyrion's scene and I kind of can see why she's willing to trust him now. Daario should be lucky he's lasted this long. I probably would've had him bumped off a season ago or something.

Sansa and Jon had so many great scenes in this episode but I'm fearful that Littlefinger might succeed in causing a wedge between him. Like Cersei, Littlefinger is too dangerous to keep alive and I'm hoping next season, he meets a horrible end.

Davos wanting vengeance for Shireen was completely justified but I can see why Jon chose to spare Melisandre. Shell serve more a purpose alive than dead now.

Arya killing Walder Frey was so satisfying to watch. I do hope she heads to Winterfell quickly though.

Sam and Gilly's scenes always feel like killing time but I liked seeing the Tower of Joy though. Ooh, a white raven too.

Bran got to confirm what we all had guessed about Jon but again, it should make next season a lot more interesting too, 10/10

[Advance35]

Quote

What I'm really curious about is how Cersei presented both the wildfire and Tommen's death to everyone else. Obviously everyone knows about both events but is Cersei taking credit for masterminding the wildfire explosion? On the one hand, that would give her a lot of power because people would be afraid of what else she's capable of (and explain why no one is opposing her taking the Iron Throne - they know that bitch is crazy!). On the other hand, it would make a lot of people hate her. Olenna knows that Cersei was behind the wildfire, but Olenna is much smarter than the average person in Westeros so it's possible that she just figured it out on her own. If Cersei is pretending that she had nothing to do with the wildfire, then she can sell the story to everyone about how Tommen was heartbroken over losing Margaery and couldn't live without her. But if she is publicly admitting she ordered the explosion, is there any way for her to explain Tommen's death in a way that doesn't implicate herself?

I feel like Cersei is to heavy handed for a PR cover story.  I think she has let it be known that there is more Wildfire and cross her if you dare.  I think that was the B-Class royal court, attending her coronation and I think they may be hostages against their respective Houses rebelling.  The whole situation couldn't be more nuts.  But then again, I would also assume the Tyrell's have their own spies in Kings Landing.  The behind the scenes people said that from Season 3 forward they purposely started differentiating  between The Royal Court and styles of dress.   Cersei's dresses have a certain look to them and they would frequently be contrasted by someone who had a style similar to Margaery Tyrell. 

During Cersei's coronation scene there were definitely people there who had the Highgarden look about them.  I'm sure one got a raven off to Olenna and told her Cersei just happened to be safe in the Red Keep while Mace, Loras and Margaery all died in the Great Sept.  I wouldn't be surprised if Olenna automatically went back to her verbal free all on Cersei where she told Cersei she was "surrounded by enemies, thousands of them, are you going to kill them all."

[revbfc]

Thinking about the explosion again.  Destroying the Sept of Baelor  didn't just kill her enemies, it most likely disrupted or destroyed key sewage infrastructure.  I wouldn't be surprised if a plague erupts in KL because of the lack of drainage and water.  Add to that the inevitable famine brought on by Winter and war...Well, Cersei will not sit on that throne for very long.

[annsterg]

2 hours ago, darkestboy said:

Sansa and Jon had so many great scenes in this episode but I'm fearful that Littlefinger might succeed in causing a wedge between him. Like Cersei, Littlefinger is too dangerous to keep alive and I'm hoping next season, he meets a horrible end.

I am hoping that LF's having been unguarded with Sansa about his actions and motivations will give her a weapon against him. Also remember that Sansa heard the big secret: that Lysa Arryn killed her husband because LF told her to do it. The killing of Jon Arryn started the whole political doom and mess for the Starks (bigger threat of the Army of the Dead notwithstanding)...and Sansa knows who started that ball rolling. She also knows who really killed Joffrey.

I hope Sansa is the instrument of LF's destruction, and she walks away smiling...again.

[Deanie87]

Well, late to the party again!  Ok, I love Cersei.  I just do.  I know that she turned completely to the dark side a long, long time ago and I don't exactly root for her to win, but she (or more accurately, Lena Headey) is just so much more interesting and charismatic than Dany, Jon and Sansa combined, IMO.  (Although Sansa's getting there and Jon can rock a man-bun like no other.)  Again, I understand what she is and I don't excuse anything that she's done, but somehow she is able to wring a tiny bit of sympathy from me anyway.   I think she IS mad at this point and she is just numb.  She has lost everyone in her life that she cared for and Jamie is up next.  That she was the cause of most of her undoing is all the more tragic to me.  She definitely deserves whatever comeuppance that is waiting in the wings, but I won't cheer for it the way I cheered for Ramsay's or Walder Frey's.  I hope that she sticks around until nearly the end, because fleets full of noble, righteous leaders just doesn't make for as interesting of a show for me.  I am looking forward Cersei's reaction to Tyrion and Sansa's newly acquired power, but the thought of a Cersei/Dany showdown doesn't do much for me because I just think that Cersei will wipe the floor with Dany.  For me, another long Dany speech about the breaking of chains, dragons, stormborn, blah blah, will completely pale in comparison to one second of Cersei sipping wine contemptuously while narrowing her eyes.  Her "Oh, you're not going to die today" line was one of the most chilling things I have ever heard.  She is just fun to watch.

I thought that the actor that plays Tommen was good in his few scenes and he really does look like he could be Lena Headey's son.  Also, that sweet scene of Sansa and Jon at Winterfell did nothing to quell my desire for them to have at it on those luxurious furs as Winter is arriving.  And don't think that I didn't notice that the kiss on the forehead was a lot longer this time :)

[deedee]

5 hours ago, MissLucas said:

The one thing I could never figure out was why he did not come up with a better lie. Like claiming Jon to be the orphan child of a simple soldier who had saved his life in battle and he now felt honor-bound to raise the boy as his own. In pseudo-feudal society there are plenty of possible scenarios why someone is raising another man's child in his home.

Maybe Ned felt that it was bad enough to hide Jon's true identity-at least he was treated as sort of a Stark. His brothers and sisters loved him and treated him well (except for Sansa). Robb even made Jon his heir because he loved and trusted him.

When Jon is leaving to go to the Wall, Ned says something like "You may not have my name but you will always be my son." I think he grew to think of Jon as his own.

[Drogo]

Be our guest, Sam!

        

[Popples]

6 minutes ago, deedee said:

When Jon is leaving to go to the Wall, Ned says something like "You may not have my name but you will always be my son." I think he grew to think of Jon as his own.

Ned said "You may not have my name, but you have my blood." Since Jon is his nephew, it is true.

[deedee]

You are right Popples, thanks! For some reason I remembered it as Ned saying Jon was his son.

[The Mighty Peanut]

So wrong, yet so right.

[dangwoodchucks]

1 hour ago, revbfc said:

Thinking about the explosion again.  Destroying the Sept of Baelor  didn't just kill her enemies, it most likely disrupted or destroyed key sewage infrastructure.  I wouldn't be surprised if a plague erupts in KL because of the lack of drainage and water.  Add to that the inevitable famine brought on by Winter and war...Well, Cersei will not sit on that throne for very long.

Since there is wildfire stashed under the Red Keep as well, the explosion at the Sept could have traveled through drainage pipes and set that off. Of course it didn't, but wouldn't that have been cool if Cersei was watching the explosion and realized the fire was traveling towards her and the underground stash of wildfire. She could've looked into the camera, uttered, "Oh shit" and then blew up. Reminiscent of the scene in "The Hunt for Red October" when the Russian sub firing on Red October ends up the target of its own torpedo. One of the crewman told the captain, "You arrogant ass, you've killed us".

[Artsda]

Damn Cersie.

And Arya wow!

Loved the King of the North scene and Jon/Sansa's sibling moments. I love Jon as the big brother especially to Arya that  I hope the true parentage doesn't change things. 

Winter has finally come! 

[DrSparkles]

1 hour ago, Deanie87 said:

 For me, another long Dany speech about the breaking of chains, dragons, stormborn, blah blah, will completely pale in comparison to one second of Cersei sipping wine contemptuously while narrowing her eyes.  Her "Oh, you're not going to die today" line was one of the most chilling things I have ever heard.  She is just fun to watch.

You are not kidding. My blood ran cold & I whimpered.

[LittleIggy]

Article about Bella Ramsey (Lady Mormont): http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/game-thrones-lady-bear-island-906516

In an interview of her that I read, she said the horse she rode in the show was named "Iggy." I like that name! :-)

[paigow]

https://imgflip.com/i/16kwtl

For Tommen

Edited June 28, 2016 by paigow

[Lady S.]

Poor Gendry, even people not considered part of the SS dangling plotpoints came back before he got the chance. OTOH, half of those returned are some manner of dead, so maybe he's better off wherever he is now.

[Constantinople]

3 minutes ago, Lady S. said:

Poor Gendry, even people not considered part of the SS dangling plotpoints came back before he got the chance. OTOH, half of those returned are some manner of dead, so maybe he's better off wherever he is now.

I have a horrible feeling that Dany's Armada will run him over.

[Potanical Pardon]

15 hours ago, Enigma X said:

Whatever the reaseon that Catelyn acted like a bitch toward Jon, I hated her for it. Many people try to explain why she felt the way she did. I honestly don't care what her motivations were. She was an ass to an innocent child.

It's for this very same reason I also don't blame Walder Frey nor hate him and his family; fuck bread customs. Cat and the Tullys, and by extension the Starks treated that family like shit since forever. Yeah they're a joke and everyone in Westeros knows it, but her beeyotch attitude brought it on herself. They never directly did anything to her nor her family.

I'm biased, but I really cannot stand how high and mighty the Starks are portrayed. They're only allowed to be victims or heroes. And I do love Lyanna and Jon Snow as characters. And Arya on and off. 

[Tyro49]

Here's how I see the start of next season: Euron's fleet meets Dany's fleet. Euron makes his bombastic proposal, Dany utters a single word, starting with "D...", the rest of Euron's fleet hastily and happily pledges allegiance to Queens Yara and Dany.  They all procede to Westeros together.

[ElleMo]

On 6/27/2016 at 0:26 PM, RedHawk said:

I'm also thinking that Jaime's and Cersei's deaths will be a murder/suicide. If Jaime can't manage to break his sick obsession with her, yet realizes and is horrified by what a complete and destructive monster she's become, he might feel his only choice is to stop her by killing her and then take his own life because he feels he can't live without her. Go out as they came in, would be fitting. But then, GRMM is known for turning tropes on their heads, so who can guess?

Yes, I think Jamie is doomed to repeat his history.  The Kingslayer who killed the mad king will become the Queenslayer who kills the mad queen.

My only sadness at this is Arya won't get to do it.

[Potanical Pardon]

36 minutes ago, Tyro49 said:

Here's how I see the start of next season: Euron's fleet meets Dany's fleet. Euron makes his bombastic proposal, Dany utters a single word, starting with "D...", the rest of Euron's fleet hastily and happily pledges allegiance to Queens Yara and Dany.  They all procede to Westeros together.

Could be. But we still have 1-2 seasons left (sort of).

We know Dany's got the Southern Realms, Greyjoy fleet, plus the Dothraki and Unsullied. Jon has all of the North minus (maybe) the Karstarks and Umbers. I have no idea where the remaining Baratheon army and loyal houses are - both Stannis and Renly's. Cersei's all whatever, fuck em all and has like The Mountain and I guess the Lannister Army, maybe some others like Sam's dad.

I'm thinking Littlefinger isn't too happy about this sudden King in the North scenario in his way. I can see him offering Cersei the support of the Vale and it's entire huge undefeated armies and boats as well as those of Euron's after convincing him it would be mutually beneficial in exchange for Cersei marrying him and making him King. He'll also leave the breadcrumbs and redirect the BWB towards Kings Landing to deal with the Mountain. If all works out for him, he'll want to push Cersei out of a window and then marry Sansa to unite the Seven Kingdoms and offer support to the North against the White Walkers. Sansa might even be part of this plot because she also thinks she's suddenly an expert and a strategist while all she's really been doing is mimicking and play-acting a grown-up. It's like at work, when the entry-level, fresh out of undergrad kids come in and start working and put on their "adult voice". Adorable and hilarious. And this too is a newer version of when a kid graduates from high school, spends a quarter/semester in college, comes home for the holidays and gabbing away in his/her new voice about philosophy or poli-sci...something insufferable trying to impress everyone at home that they know everything and are all gwowns up! After everything, Sansa's desire is the same as it ever was when she wanted to be Joffrey's queen. Cersei is so toast unless she makes some quick and shady alliances. Kyburn is like the closest thing to anyone with a brain near her, so distrustful Littlefinger would also be valuable to her in that way.

I don't see them winning. Team Dany still has so much of an advantage - brains, numbers and dragons. But I do see something like Littlefinger (who has always been end game Big Bad, to me) putting a huge dent/damper on things.

Yes, I think Jamie is doomed to repeat his history.  The Kingslayer who killed the mad king will become the Queenslayer who kills the mad queen.

My only sadness at this is Arya won't get to do it.

Whatever goes down here, Arya and Jaime are going to be in the same room at the same time. And Brienne has to be here too. Cersei is going to be Arya's last name to get to and Arya will fail and die. There are too many callbacks and references for both Arya and Jaime to have to be present and involved in Cersei's end. Jaime will ultimately have to be the one to finish the job for a thousand different reasons and more than even Arya. He has freaking golden hand for a reason! Gold. Lannisters. Inorganic/cold. Heavy. You hold things with it that you care about. You kill things with it that you don't care about. Arya will probably see it all as she slowly dies and Jaime will get to have a Stark representative to finally confront and apologize to. Oh and I don't know why or how, but somehow Brienne has to kill Jaime/not kill Jaime. Her entire arc has been all about the honors and nobility. It has to end with her having to decide between that and doing what's right, though it will bring her dishonor. Maybe it'll have something to do with Arya there and her oath to Cat and how she said to Jaime after River Run, that she's honor-bound to fight against him if he...I forget what exactly...assaults The Twins? And then doesn't. She's all about those oaths. It's in her sword's name. Or some equal but opposite one where Jaime would have to die. 

Edited June 28, 2016 by Potanical Pardon

[dangwoodchucks]

36 minutes ago, Tyro49 said:

Here's how I see the start of next season: Euron's fleet meets Dany's fleet. Euron makes his bombastic proposal, Dany utters a single word, starting with "D...", the rest of Euron's fleet hastily and happily pledges allegiance to Queens Yara and Dany.  They all procede to Westeros together.

Or Dany might want to first check out Euron's huge cock that Yara told her about. I can't believe I just wrote huge cock. I'll see myself out.

[ElleMo]

10 hours ago, MissLucas said:

The one thing I could never figure out was why he did not come up with a better lie. Like claiming Jon to be the orphan child of a simple soldier who had saved his life in battle and he now felt honor-bound to raise the boy as his own. In pseudo-feudal society there are plenty of possible scenarios why someone is raising another man's child in his home.

Ned want Jon to know that Stark blood ran through his veins.  He mentioned it several times.

[Potanical Pardon]

5 minutes ago, ElleMo said:

11 minutes ago, ElleMo said:

Ned want Jon to know that Stark blood ran through his veins.  He mentioned it several times.

Twist! Theon is Stark and Jon Snow is Greyjoy!

[Ambrosefolly]

12 minutes ago, Potanical Pardon said:

It's for this very same reason I also don't blame Walder Frey nor hate him and his family; fuck bread customs. Cat and the Tullys, and by extension the Starks treated that family like shit since forever. Yeah they're a joke and everyone in Westeros knows it, but her beeyotch attitude brought it on herself. They never directly did anything to her nor her family.

I'm biased, but I really cannot stand how high and mighty the Starks are portrayed. They're only allowed to be victims or heroes. And I do love Lyanna and Jon Snow as characters. And Arya on and off. 

What? Every scene with the Starks and Freys before Red Wedding featured the Starks groveling at that old bastard's feet. Cat was incredibly pissed when Robb broke the marriage agreement to get that bridge and Stark/Tullys threatened, begged and guilted  Edmure to marry a potentially ugly ass daughter of his (even Walder acknowledged that most of his girl descendants weren't very attractive). I wouldn't be surprised if that part of that jackass's ire stems from Hoster turning down marriage proposals from Walder to marry either her or Lysa when they were preteens/young teenagers. At least the Kastarks had the decency (at the time) to pack up their shit and leave when Robb beheaded the Lord, not lie to their faces and play nice to lull them into a sense of security that everyone, from peasants to the highborn, expect with the guest right.

It seems that not even his children or grandchildren liked him very much, from the very first meeting with Walder to when he was yelling at all of them for there failure to capture Blackfish and Riverrun. If Arya didn't murder every single Frey, I am sure that the remaining are probably saying good riddance.

It is probably why my favorite scene wasn't Arya killing Walder, but the shade Jaime gave him about his lack of being a warrior. All the houses dislike that pedophile. I hope he finally see the shades of Walder in Cersei after doing the one thing that forced him to kill the Mad King.

[Potanical Pardon]

4 minutes ago, Ambrosefolly said:

What? Every scene with the Starks and Freys before Red Wedding featured the Starks groveling at that old bastard's feet. Cat was incredibly pissed when Robb broke the marriage agreement to get that bridge and Stark/Tullys threatened, begged and guilted  Edmure to marry a potentially ugly ass daughter of his (even Walder acknowledged that most of his girl descendants weren't very attractive). I wouldn't be surprised if that part of that jackass's ire stems from Hoster turning down marriage proposals from Walder to marry either her or Lysa when they were preteens/young teenagers. At least the Kastarks had the decency (at the time) to pack up their shit and leave when Robb beheaded the Lord, not lie to their faces and play nice to lull them into a sense of security that everyone, from peasants to the highborn, expect with the guest right.

It seems that not even his children or grandchildren liked him very much, from the very first meeting with Walder to when he was yelling at all of them for there failure to capture Blackfish and Riverrun. If Arya didn't murder every single Frey, I am sure that the remaining are probably saying good riddance.

It is probably why my favorite scene wasn't Arya killing Walder, but the shade Jaime gave him about his lack of being a warrior. All the houses dislike that pedophile. I hope he finally see the shades of Walder in Cersei after doing the one thing that forced him to kill the Mad King.

I'm speaking about when they were kids. Walder makes reference to the Tully's treating his family like shit. Pre-Red Wedding Cat is all aghast and insulted that she and Robb have to feign civility to the likes of Walder. That's a beeyotch thing.

As for the shade Jaime threw at Walder. That totally backfired. All it showed Jaime was a mirror of himself. That he isn't above, superior, a better anything than Walder. Walder owned Jaime, not the other way around. It's the first step towards Jaime finally thinking on his own and reclaiming his humanity.

Edited June 28, 2016 by Potanical Pardon

[Ambrosefolly]

50 minutes ago, Potanical Pardon said:

I'm speaking about when they were kids. Walder makes reference to the Tully's treating his family like shit. Pre-Red Wedding Cat is all aghast and insulted that she and Robb have to feign civility to the likes of Walder. That's a beeyotch thing.

As for the shade Jaime threw at Walder. That totally backfired. All it showed Jaime was a mirror of himself. That he isn't above, superior, a better anything than Walder. Walder owned Jaime, not the other way around. It's the first step towards Jaime finally thinking on his own and reclaiming his humanity.

When they were kids, and he didn't describe any incident that involved her specifically disrespecting House Frey, only her dad not attending his the wedding of him and his child brides ! Not every kid can be a 10 year old boss bitch from Bear Island (though the one nice I can say about Lyanna Mormont is that she would have even ruder things to say about the Freys than Cat ever did). She was a kid, kids can be jerks, and I doubt they had much contact when she was a girl and no one even remotely politically minded would chose the Freys to marry when Warden of the North is offering up his own heir as a husband. No one seems to like or worse, respect the Freys, even less so now. Not many people liked Tywin, but they did respect him. The guy is a pedophile, Cat had a fairly disgusted on her face when he was groping his 15 year old wife in front of her.

[Potanical Pardon]

I get that he's a pedo, a creeper, all of that. The implication is that all the other houses look down on House Frey for probably similar reasons. But the dude owns it. He knows what he is and he isn't fronting while most other Houses do. They all have something terrible or embarassing and act like they don't while going after the easy target. All the incest and child brides in the Targaryen history and even the unofficial Lannisters buys respect because they happen to be both a ruling class and bathe.

And this wouldn't be the first or second example of Cat being a beeyotch. She bullied Littlefinger along with the Stark kids back in the day too. That's how that whole Lysa thing started. 

Yeah, I know they were kids. That excuse doesn't fly when the same traits are present in the adult version. And they pick up their judgy-judgeness from their judgy-judge parents. The Frey's shit does stink...I'm just calling out Cat, Sansa, most Starks on it too. 

Edited June 28, 2016 by Potanical Pardon

[DarkRaichu]

2 hours ago, Lady S. said:

Poor Gendry, even people not considered part of the SS dangling plotpoints came back before he got the chance. OTOH, half of those returned are some manner of dead, so maybe he's better off wherever he is now.

 

2 hours ago, Constantinople said:

I have a horrible feeling that Dany's Armada will run him over.

He was probably at the Great Sept hoping to see justice falling on Cersei, alas she never showed ;)

[MrWhyt]

24 minutes ago, Potanical Pardon said:

And this wouldn't be the first or second example of Cat being a beeyotch. She bullied Littlefinger along with the Stark kids back in the day too. That's how that whole Lysa thing started.

A: Fuck Littlefinger, young or old.

B: What bullying? (this is a no book talk thread and I don't remember how much of the book backstory has been brought up in the show)

[revbfc]

Just now, MrWhyt said:

A: Fuck Littlefinger, young or old.

B: What bullying? (this is a no book talk thread and I don't remember how much of the book backstory has been brought up in the show)

Littlefinger does mention being physically wounded.  He talks about a scar he has from his abdomen to his neck.  I forget from whom, but it was either one of the Tully or Stark boys.

[Ambrosefolly]

14 minutes ago, Potanical Pardon said:

I get that he's a pedo, a creeper, all of that. The implication is that all the other houses look down on House Frey for probably similar reasons. But the dude owns it. He knows what he is and he isn't fronting while most other Houses do. They all have something terrible or embarassing and act like they don't while going after the easy target. All the incest and child brides in the Targaryen history and even the unofficial Lannisters buys respect because they happen to be both a ruling class and bathe.

And this wouldn't be the first or second example of Cat being a beeyotch. She bullied Littlefinger along with the Stark kids back in the day too. That's how that whole Lysa thing started. 

Yeah, I know they were kids. That excuse doesn't fly when the same traits are present in the adult version. And they pick up their judgy-judgeness from their judgy-judge parents. The Frey's shit does stink...I'm just calling out Cat, Sansa, most Starks on it too. 

That old canard: It is okay to be a terrible person as long as you "own" it, whatever the hell that means, so totally okay to not do a blessed thing to change yourself.  #TrumpforPrez2017! 

So what if you violate every fucking custom that people from the castle to huts observed if it fast tracks to get what he want. If the Freys had turned down Robb's offer and supported the Lannisters, it would be  understandably and even respectable,  but they lulled the Stark forces into a sense of security while they were disarmed. Of course the fact they were too stupid to see Lannister army to see the them coming to them from behind probably why they killed everyone at dinner.

Kraster was a daughter raping shit head who gave his boys the White Walkers, but its okay because he owned it!

Just now, revbfc said:

Littlefinger does mention being physically wounded.  He talks about a scar he has from his abdomen to his neck.  I forget from whom, but it was either one of the Tully or Stark boys.

Brandon, Cat's original suitor. 

[MrWhyt]

3 minutes ago, revbfc said:

Littlefinger does mention being physically wounded.  He talks about a scar he has from his abdomen to his neck.  I forget from whom, but it was either one of the Tully or Stark boys.

yeah but that's not from being bullied (again I dont remember how much book backstory is in the show)

[Lady S.]

3 minutes ago, revbfc said:

Littlefinger does mention being physically wounded.  He talks about a scar he has from his abdomen to his neck.  I forget from whom, but it was either one of the Tully or Stark boys.

Because he challenged Brandon to a duel for Cat's hand in marriage. The only person who described that as a bullying situation was Lysa as she went crazy on Sansa for the first time.