S06.E09: Battle Of The Bastards

[Misplaced]

Wowsers.   That was equal parts amazing and unpleasant. The camera work when Jon was under The Heap was astonishing.  

Loved the music over the end credits.  Just lovely.

Now we know why Sansa didn't tell Jon about the Vale army...because Jon did exactly what Ramsay wanted him to do!  

[Oscirus]

I almost hope that LF tries to make Sansa marry him so she can go "lol, no."

[GrailKing]

5 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

Well, those of us who wanted to see Lady Stoneheart, I think we just got her.  And her name is Sansa.

I'm hoping more QOT, humanity where needed, ruthlessness when needed.

[RedheadZombie]

I read this director was the same one as Hardhome.  I didn't confirm it, but they seemed similar. 

I'm glad Ghost wasn't there because he would have probably died.  But how cool would it have been if Ghost was present at the tete a tete the day before?  So in my head, Ramsay had Shaggy Dog's head thrown on the ground, and Ghost reacts by going for Ramsay's throat.  Jon calls him off, but not before Ramsay wets himself.

28 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

 

Happy Fathers' Day and all, and Tyrion is no Twyin and Theon and Yara want to be better that Papa Greyjoy. But then you have Tyrion telling Dany about Jamie and the Madking and the show is reminding us that Dany is becoming bloodthirsty like Daddy Dearest, and it becomes clearer and clearer that Danaerys doesn't get at all what really happened there. My two cents? She won't sit in that fucking throne.

I actually got a different impression.  I thought the take away was how different Dany will be from her father.   Her first impulse was scorched earth, as it has worked for her in the past.  But Tyrion was able to quickly change her strategy, and he did it by working on her weakness, which are the innocents.   It was a good partnership and it was successful, which probably means Dany will temper her reactions in the future and continue to consult with Tyrion.  And I think it was reinforced in the way she dealt with Theon and Yara. She's finally learning how to rule versus just conquer. 

[GrailKing]

5 hours ago, prospazzinator said:

Be cool, Jon. Just be cool! No? Well, shit.

All's well that ends well I guess, but I really hated Littlefinger and Sansa riding in to save the day.

Then Jon is dead, Jon followed the foot steps, of Ned,Robb and Rheagar: they all fought Honorably,Nobly, Valiantly but Jon avoided their end because his little sister had the right of it.

Sansa knew Ramsey's head, she knows a lot about LF ( she needs more),she warned Jon that Ramsey will turn his plan to the Boltons favor, and Jon paid a heavy price.

[Oscirus]

Also minor nitpick, Yara. Westeros has had a queen before, even if history doesn't recognize it, didn't Rhaenyra temporarily sit on the throne?

[OhOkayWhat]

To the people saying: "Sansa did not have any reason to do not tell Jon about the Vale". The thing is this: I think Sansa heavy trust issues made it hard to tell anyone. Even if she trust Jon good heart and even if she knows that he wants to protect her, she does not trust he will act the way she thinks he should act. Notice that i said "the way she thinks..." because i am not saying either she is right and Jon is wrong.

[patchwork]

3 minutes ago, jeansheridan said:

Davos did in the strategy scene.  Ramsey rules by fear.  If he holed up in the castle it would make him look like a coward and he would lose more support.  That said, I am surprised he didn't take hostages from all the houses "loyal" to him to ensure their loyalty.

I will admit I was hoping for more guerrilla tactics from the Jon/Davos/Free Folk combo.  Being sneaky is their strength.  Being unpredictable like Dany would change the rules.  Jon is in some ways too traditional.  But Davos was a smuggler.  I hoped for more cunning.  

 

True, and because they had the smaller force the Starks should have fought smarter. I would have liked the idea of sneakier tactics to at least be discussed when they realised they would have to go with the smaller houses but the show seemed set on a big epic battle and getting Sansa/Littlefinger back together.

All in all while I really like that the Starks have Winterfell again and that Ramsey was torn apart by his own dogs I'm disappointed with the writing and how we got here. 

[GrailKing]

5 hours ago, SeanC said:

Sansa not telling Jon about the Arryns was a blatantly contrived storytelling device that existed for no reason other than the writers wanting the battle to start before the Arryns arrived.

Meanwhile, Jon is a terrible general who, even with the information he had, played his hand abysmally.

Ramsay's death was nice, admittedly, though he suffered no consequences whatsoever from being a "mad dog", in the end.  He only lost because of Littlefinger.

Oh for F sake it wasn't, until they tell us to our face that she received a guarantee reply he be there; there was nothing she could offer Jon to delay the battle. If Jon some how drew Ramsey out it would be contrived story telling also.

When is he coming Sansa?,how many?, did he reply? etc. why didn't you tell me? I don't trust him Jon, if he learns Rickon is alive he kill him all these are valid, and do we know if he already knew about Rickon while he was awaiting Ramsey's ok to pass?

Jon had a plan and Sansa warned him that Ramsey will take him out of the plan, because he's going to use Rickon to draw him out.

Even Tormond on the field of battle said DON"T! for us to hear, a clear indication that Sansa correctly understood Ramsey.

Jon was almost bacon because he followed in the footsteps of Ned, Robb and Rhaegar.

[gatopretoNYC]

13 minutes ago, RedheadZombie said:

I read this director was the same one as Hardhome.  I didn't confirm it, but they seemed similar. 

...Tyrion was able to quickly change her strategy, and he did it by working on her weakness, which are the innocents.   It was a good partnership and it was successful, which probably means Dany will temper her reactions in the future and continue to consult with Tyrion.  And I think it was reinforced in the way she dealt with Theon and Yara. She's finally learning how to rule versus just conquer. 

Yes, it was the same director. I read a looot of GOT stuff last night - I was so amped for this episode. :D

I noticed that Dany even turned around to double check Tyrion's opinion just before she shook Yara's hand. (arm?)

[gatopretoNYC]

Btw Masters - It does not do to leave a live dragon* out of your calculations, if you live near him.

*or three

[anamika]

3 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

When is he coming Sansa?,how many?, did he reply? etc. why didn't you tell me? I don't trust him Jon, if he learns Rickon is alive he kill him all these are valid, and do we know if he already knew about Rickon while he was awaiting Ramsey's ok to pass

LF is an untrustworthy bastard, but he owes me and he told me he would help and the Vale armies are in Moat Cailin and I send the letter to him this many days ago and he may therefore arrive around this time. See how easy that was? Now what Jon does with his info is upto him. If he does not wait and goes ahead anyway, then we get the current scenario. If Jon and Davos decide to wait it out a couple of days and send riders searching for the Vale army then they could have made better military plans to take on the Boltons with a surprise attack using a larger Vale army. Then they would win with far larger resources. No to mention the possible support of a Vale army would have got them the support of the Glovers.

No matter which way you look at it, there were so many advantages to telling Jon and no advantages at all to not telling him. Other than Sansa getting satisfaction of bringing LF/Vale there for a last minute victory.

And why is Sansa not bothered at all about Rickon? Was she manipulating Jon with all the 'We have to save Rickon from the monster' and then turns around and tells him to give up rescuing their little brother before the battle?

Just from the way it's written, it looks like Sansa going hard for the Queen in the North position.

[GrailKing]

5 hours ago, anamika said:

So what was the point of Sansa keeping the info about the Vale army a secret leading the death of all those men and Wun Wun? Why could she not have let Jon in on that info instead of preaching to him about Ramsay?

Jon was a total idiot this episode and that sucks. Book Jon is so much more measured and a clever general. But of course, they had to write him as making bad decisions so that LF/Sansa can save the day and we get boss ass bitch Sansa. Jon has been a mess this season.

Not all that impressed with the Battle. It was basically the Starks losing miserably and dying all over. Meereen was good and so was Dany/Yara. At least we are getting somewhere there with some story progression.

Which part don't you get, she has no info he's coming, Jon has a plan, that is open to Ramsey to exploit,if she tells Jon, how long will he wait before he decides he has to act, Jon's not in control here whether Sansa tells him the Vale MAY Come or not. Ramsey has Rickon, Ramsey has control, Ramsey knows that Jon is going to follow the Ned plan, guess what; Sansa knows it too.

These deaths were going to happened because Ramsey had the control to force Jon to abandon his plan due to Jon's honor, Sansa knows Ramsey has no honor, just like she knows LF doesn't.

[loki567]

Good lord, why do people keep trying to explain the bad writing on this show? How many, "Arya vs Waif," discussions do we have to have before we realize that GoT doesn't do complex character motivations or well-thought-out planning? 

[GrailKing]

2 minutes ago, anamika said:

LF is an untrustworthy bastard, but he owes me and he told me he would help and the Vale armies are in Moat Cailin and I send the letter to him this many days ago and he may therefore arrive around this time. See how easy that was? Now what Jon does with his info is upto him. If he does not wait and goes ahead anyway, then we get the current scenario. If Jon and Davos decide to wait it out a couple of days and send riders searching for the Vale army then they could have made better military plans to take on the Boltons with a surprise attack using a larger Vale army. Then they would win with far larger resources. No to mention the possible support of a Vale army would have got them the support of the Glovers.

No matter which way you look at it, there were so many advantages to telling Jon and no advantages at all to not telling him. Other than Sansa getting satisfaction of bringing LF/Vale there for a last minute victory.

And why is Sansa not bothered at all about Rickon? Was she manipulating Jon with all the 'We have to save Rickon from the monster' and then turns around and tells him to give up rescuing their little brother before the battle?

Just from the way it's written, it looks like Sansa going hard for the Queen in the North position.

Did you see how easy Ramsey negated all that in mere seconds

Why was she not bothered!? she knew Rickon was a threat to Ramsey, she got her confirmation when he threw down the wolf head she knew Rickon was soon to be dead if not already, and she knew Ramsey was going to use it against Jon.

She may wind up wardeness, but that's not what she wants to accomplish, what she wants is to back stab LF or kill him.

She knows the devils, Jon doesn't.

5 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

Agreed.  I was waxing poetic. But Sansa's soul is darker now.  She trusts less, is more ruthless, she will be forever changed.  She's not a reanimated revenge-seeking zombie but she is not a person to be fucked with.

QOT Stark style.

[GrailKing]

5 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

Serious question -- is there ANYONE left to fight the White Walkers?  The death toll from that battle was catastrophic.

Well they only killed from six houses, still have many more in the North, along with the South ( if they get their heads out their asses ).

[anamika]

16 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Which part don't you get, she has no info he's coming, Jon has a plan, that is open to Ramsey to exploit,if she tells Jon, how long will he wait before he decides he has to act, Jon's not in control here whether Sansa tells him the Vale MAY Come or not. Ramsey has Rickon, Ramsey has control, Ramsey knows that Jon is going to follow the Ned plan, guess what; Sansa knows it too.

These deaths were going to happened because Ramsey had the control to force Jon to abandon his plan due to Jon's honor, Sansa knows Ramsey has no honor, just like she knows LF doesn't.

But she asked LF for help. She send him a raven asking him for his help. The army is in Moat Cailin. LF said he would help. What is wrong in her telling Jon all this? Seriously? Why can't Jon use this info and get the Glovers to help him? Why can't Jon or Davos send some riders to check if there is a Vale army on the way and wait for a few days. As Jon mentioned, the only reason they attacked was because he thought they had no more resources. The riders could come back with info and Jon and Davos could have made new plans.

Sansa just sat on that info uselessly. If she was so doubtful about LF turning up why not send some riders to check it out?

12 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Why was she not bothered!? she knew Rickon was a threat to Ramsey, she got her confirmation when he threw down the wolf head she knew Rickon was soon to be dead if not already, and she knew Ramsey was going to use it against Jon.

But then that was the whole point of their campaign was it not? They even used that argument with the Mormonts.  Sansa used that argument to get Jon to fight against Ramsay. Because Rickon was with the monster Ramsay and they needed to save him. If she knew Rickon was already dead why did she use that argument with Jon? Which means she was basically manipulating Jon to fight for her using Rickon as bait. All this showed was that she did not care at all to try and save Rickon himself. She only wanted to win the battle.

[patchwork]

Both sides of the Telling Jon About the Vale Knights have good points but ultimately I think it came down to Sansa's trust issues.

There was a lot of Ifs attached to Little finger and the knights, if he gets the raven, if he gets there in time, if he will fight on her side and so on.

We should get an explanation next week but who knows if we actually will.

[Czanne]

Quote

50 minutes ago, OhOkayWhat said:

To the people saying: "Sansa did not have any reason to do not tell Jon about the Vale". The thing is this: I think Sansa heavy trust issues made it hard to tell anyone. Even if she trust Jon good heart and even if she knows that he wants to protect her, she does not trust he will act the way she thinks he should act. Notice that i said "the way she thinks..." because i am not saying either she is right and Jon is wrong.

This, plus another point. Sansa has had two of her suggestions fail -- the small Northern houses, and the Blackfish. She has to be uncertain of Littlefinger and the Vale army specifically on the basis of communication -- Ravens aren't email. One can send one out if the raven has been trained to go to its destination, but ravens can't be told to find a specific person. Thus why Lady Mormont had hers. The northern rebellion forces are on the move, so they haven't trained ravens to home on them. In theory, Littlefinger and the Vale army is also moving. Sansa's previous raven was more of a message in a bottle than an urgent text/voicemail/email. She has no way of knowing if she can actually get the Vale at all. 

Sansa has been humiliated so many times that I don't think she can bear much more, and to have her third military suggestion in a row fail may be more than she can afford to risk. Thus sitting on the information -- and especially once she knows that her strategic credit with Jon is getting thin and that he's committed to fighting Very Soon Now -- it's the emotionally safe bet. Because Sansa really wants -- maybe needs -- somebody's approval and Jon's what she's got. In that situation, it's better to delight and surprise than to fail and disappoint. 

Off that topic -- that kettling may have been the most terrifying piece of performance I've seen because damn, that was too realistic. I've been kettled, once, by a hostile but not actively murderous modern police force with a much higher level of jobsworth than a medieval-ish army. And with all of the protections of modernity, once inside the kettle, one gets really aware that this crowd is about this || far from panic and breaking into a stampede and crushing some significant fraction of the group. That high potential for panic is what makes kettling such a stupid and dangerous tactic for law enforcement. 

[mrspidey]

6 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

Serious question -- is there ANYONE left to fight the White Walkers?  The death toll from that battle was catastrophic.

Dany still has her entire army plus three Dragons who are a hard counter to wights. Jamie has 8000 men. There's Dorne and the Tyrell forces. I'm sure the Tully forces can be rearmed as well. 

[Misplaced]

11 hours ago, AGuyToo said:

I don't understand the Sansa love in this thread. Sure, Jon was the greater idiot, but Sansa should have told the others about Littlefinger. Indeed, she should have told them about Littlefinger several episodes ago. Thousands of people were going to risk their lives in this battle. There was no excuse for her to withhold important information from the battle commander.

I think the answer is:  the battle commander did exactly what Sansa -- the only person in the camp with actual, real knowledge of Ramsay -- warned him about: he let Ramsay get into his head, got played like a fiddle, and drew his entire army out from its protected position.  The narrative set-up here = if the Vale army had been with Jon when Jon got played, the Vale army would also have been drawn out from the protected position and slaughtered (remember, Davos is *very clear* in the war council that Ramsay's army must come to them, not the other way around).   And again, the narrative set-up is that Sansa doesn't trust anyone after she herself has been played (by Joffrey, by Olenna, by Littlefinger, by Ramsay) and she's not willing to hand over what she has even to Jon, and certainly (I believe) after she explicitly warns him what kind of messed-up psychopath Ramsay is, and Jon doesn't even try to think through how Ramsay might play him.  

Whether it fully works on screen, I'm not sure.  Whether the Vale army would have been slaughtered or would have tipped the balance, I'm also not sure.  But Ramsay is killing his own men along with Jon's with arrow volleys in order to build the Wall O' Dead (300, anyone?); Davos won't let his archers fire into the battle because he knows his guys could die from friendly fire.  Ramsay is a total nutter and unpredictable.  Jon doesn't get it, Sansa does.  So she takes the one action she knows she can take.  Or at least that's how I think it's meant to be portrayed.  

Edited June 20, 2016 by Misplaced

[paigow]

2 hours ago, lovebug1975 said:

btw....where the fuck was brienne during the battle, lol.  she sure manages to avoid many big battles that really count.

Pod lacks Gendry's mad rowing skills...and does not know how to find the wormhole.... 

Edited June 20, 2016 by paigow

[OhOkayWhat]

1 hour ago, Misplaced said:

I think the answer is:  the battle commander did exactly what Sansa -- the only person in the camp with actual, real knowledge of Ramsay -- warned him about: he let Ramsay get into his head, got played like a fiddle, and drew his entire army out from its protected position.  The narrative set-up here = if the Vale army had been with Jon when Jon got played, the Vale army would also have been drawn out from the protected position and slaughtered (remember, Davos is *very clear* in the war council that Ramsay's army must come to them, not the other way around).   And again, the narrative set-up is that Sansa doesn't trust anyone after she herself has been played (by Joffrey, by Olenna, by Littlefinger, by Ramsay) and she's not willing to hand over what she has even to Jon, and certainly (I believe) after she explicitly warns him what kind of messed-up psychopath Ramsay is, and Jon doesn't even try to think through how Ramsay might play him.  

Whether it fully works on screen, I'm not sure.  Whether the Vale army would have been slaughtered or would have tipped the balance, I'm also not sure.  But Ramsay is killing his own men along with Jon's with arrow volleys in order to build the Wall O' Dead (300, anyone?); Davos won't let his archers fire into the battle because he knows his guys could die from friendly fire.  Ramsay is a total nutter and unpredictable.  Jon doesn't get it, Sansa does.  So she takes the one action she knows she can take.  Or at least that's how I think it's meant to be portrayed.  

I agree with almost everything you said. I think Sansa trust Jon in the sense she knows he will protect her with his life. That she knows, the problem is she ask herself: "what if he falls in Ramsay trap? what if his army falls too? what if he, his army and the Vale cavalry (under Jon command) falls too?".

And it is not us explaining the show for them: almost all that info is in the show, we see the Jon-Sansa chat the night before the battle. She is struggling to tell him, but she also knows he does not believe in the whole "Ramsay will trick you".

And I understand Jon too, he is not dumb, he simply knows other kind of enemies and he knows Sansa is not military trained.She even admits that.

It is a case of two persons with their own issues that make them act like they think they should act, instead of share information and plan together. I wish Sansa shared the info, but it is not bad writing to make Sansa deal with her trust issues after so many seasons suffering a lot of stuff. And Jon made a plan too, and it is human nature the way he behaved about Rickon death.

So both Starks are behaving in a way we can understand. We wish tell them both: "Sansa trust Jon, tell him the info! Jon listen to her, trust her when she tells you there will be trap!, you both can work together!" ...but that is what we want, and that is different that to say it is bad writing.

In other words I am not defending Sansa or Jon, my comment is not about guilt or blame. Maybe someone else will comment about those issues. My comment is about if the way they act makes sense as human behavior. And I think it does.

Edited June 20, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

[paigow]

3 hours ago, Misplaced said:

Now we know why Sansa didn't tell Jon about the Vale army...because Jon did exactly what Ramsay wanted him to do!  

This is what she will say to Jon next week..(Barenaked Ladies style)

             Five days since I laughed at you and said,
             "You just did just what I thought you were gonna do."

Edited June 20, 2016 by paigow

[BooBear]

I agree Sansa not telling Jon was probably bad story telling but it doesn't bother me so much because I do think she was wise not to say anything until she knew for sure and Jon seemed more willing to listen. It is also bad storytelling that Jon seemed so unwilling to listen to Sansa or even consult her.

Over all though, that was a tremendous battle. I was delightfully surprised by Jon almost dying by suffocation. Not only was it hard to watch but imho unique in a battle scene.  Of course I enjoyed Sansa being the one to set the dogs on Ramsey. I figured that would happen after Roose noted earlier in the year that if you act like a dog, people will treat you like one. But to have Sansa get her revenge was amazing.  I think originally Sansa used Rickon to get Jon to agree to fight but knew that Rickon was most likely dead.  I loved Lyanna Mormont. Loved that she was at the meeting.

On Sansa- if anyone is worried about a female becoming a bad guy, I am a little worried about Sansa. She is a little off the rails and drunk with power. As for Littlefinger... gonna say it... I think Sansa secretly has a thing for him.  One reason she was so angry when she thought he had betrayed her.  But I think she has the sense that he wouldn't knowingly hurt her and could help her achieve a lot.  She covered for him in the Vale and he saved her from her aunt.

Everything with Danny was perfection. I enjoyed that Tyrion is like her co leader. Alone they both aren't the best but together they are quite a team. I loved what happened with the masters.

Thank god Ramsey Bolton is dead. I wish Mel could bring him back so we could do it all over again.

[Bill1978]

OMG that was intense and a bloody brilliant piece of television. Jut like how Hardhome blew me away last year, this one was just as impressive. I'm a person who usually doesn't care about battle scenes. Putting attack, people die, lots of blood someone wins. Usually that's a yawn to me, but wow I am glad this got filmed. It was breathtaking and edge of the seat stuff.

RIP Rickon I hardly knew ye. There have been many heartbreaking deaths on this show and for me Rickon's is one of them. So so so close to safety and he gets killed. So glad that a)Jon pummelled Ramsay like there was no tomorrow and b) Ramsay got the death he deserved, finally saw true fear in the character's face. Let's hope there are no more Stark deaths in this show. And if GRRM doesn't release a 'revenge' chapter about Rickon online I will take it as confirmation that this is how Rickon goes out in the book.

When I told my friend Rickon died, her first response was are they going to bring him back to life like Jon. Which made me think, as story telling plot it is a td silly to bring a character back to life and then totally ignore the death of others, even if you hand wave it by saying it's the Lord of the Light's decision. I have issues with the while time travel thing in Harry Potter for a similar reason.

Totally forgot about King's Landing until the preview aired

Random questions:

1. Is Peter Dinklage's beard on the show real? Cause for the past few episode is has just looked really fake to my eyes.

2. With the death of Wun Wun does that mean giants are officially extinct in Westeros?

Edited June 20, 2016 by Bill1978

[Misplaced]

So many, many good acting moments in this episode but the best for me was Liam Cunningham.  That look of realisation, horror and despair in his eyes when he finally understands what happened to Shireen gave me chills.  He's such a fine actor and it was such fine acting.  

[The Mighty Peanut]

I loved when Yara said Euron was going to offer Dany his fat cock and she and Dany just smirked at each other both knowing that he probably actually thinks it's the greatest gift in the world.

Edited June 20, 2016 by The Mighty Peanut

[MarySNJ]

6 hours ago, J----av said:

 How is Ramsay a coward? Ramsay is probably one of the bravest men in Westeros. He is known to be stupidly brave to the point of being completely reckless 

I guess it's a matter of perspective. Being brave should include being willing to fight along side his troops, or at least in Game of Thrones/ASOIAF history, lords fight in the battle, not just command from the safety of a distance. For example, Robert Baratheon famously fought Rhaegar in single combat during battle. 

As Jon pointed out pre-battle to those within earshot, Ramsay would not die for his men. Perhaps it was smart for Ramsay to save his own skin, but he didn't fight like a Lord. He sat safely back on his horse and led from the rear. The Smalljon got into the battle as did Karstark. 

When the Vale army showed up, he turned tail and ran back to Winterfell leaving his men to be slaughtered or captured. 

I'm not seeing that is brave; smart, perhaps, but not brave. 

[kieyra]

On the one hand, I agree that "Stupid but Noble Starks" has been a throughline throughout the entire show.

On the other hand, when held up against a bunch of murdering psychopaths, anyone "normal" is going to look weak. 

And on the third hand, hero characters need flaws to overcome. I suppose the Starks' flaw is genetic.

[Knuckles]

Just two thoughts...when Sansa said, "no one can protect us" did anyone think of Arya?

And when Jaime said last episode, "girls like Sansa don't tend to live very long"...foreshadowing, or just that Jaime has not met the now experience-hardened Sansa?

[Haleth]

The battle scene was outstanding.  I've not seen anything of that scope since Private Ryan.  I'd love to see a feature on how it was filmed; the direction, cinematography, and editing were stunning.  Kudos to everyone involved.

Yeah, it makes more sense for Sansa and Jon to have spoken about the Vale army, but I'm going with the assumption that Sansa did not trust that LF would come through, or maybe was afraid his price would be too high.  She waited until there was no other choice.

RIP Rickon.  I'd been spoiled before the season started that he would die this way and it infuriated me at the time.  As long as no other Starks are killed I'm ok with it.  I did find the "little man" line amusing since Art is now as tall as Iwan.

Even Meereen was fun to watch.  Dany and Yara, bad ass Grey Worm, and dragons!

Winter may be coming (have you heard?) but the tide has turned.

[ciprus]

What an episode! I'm not usually into these battle episodes, but this one was special. I loved all of the Mereen stuff. And Ramsay was eaten by his own dogs! My girlfriend actually insisted on opening a bottle of bubbly to celebrate Ramsey's brutal demise. Cheers, y'all!

[cambridgeguy]

Hopefully the future Wardens of the North invest in some good scouting.  How is it that Ramsey didn't know about the Vale army camped out on his border, nor was anyone aware that they were rapidly moving North?  Maybe he outsourced that to the Freys. 

Sansa and Jon do need to have a long talk about working together.  Not even mentioning the potential reinforcements was a failure on her part, and Jon's unwillingness to really listen to her was a failure on his part.  They're effectively the two rulers of the North - she's trueborn and he's a dude, so mix them together and it's almost as good as having one trueborn son of Ned!

[Constantinople]

Yet another Stark dies running the straight and narrow.

[Advance35]

I actually wouldn't be surprised if Sansa thought Rickon was dead when they learned he was in Ramsay's custody.  She knew that would motivate Jon to pursue possession on Winterfell and telling him that Rickon was a loss cause would have probably kicked the moral right out of him.   I do think there was a level of manipulation to it and I would have done the same thing in her shoes.  

I think Sansa is an immensely damaged young woman on the inside.  I don't think she'll ever TRULY trust anyone again and from her point of view I can't say it's unwise.  It's been a long time since she and Jon were together and just assuming someone will always act in your best interest because their family was a mistake she made with Lyssa.

Jon promising to protect Sansa and her saying "No one can protect me" was very telling.  I get the impression she is afraid ALL of the time and that's got to be exhausting. 

[Sakura12]

5 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

 And I think it was reinforced in the way she dealt with Theon and Yara. She's finally learning how to rule versus just conquer. 

I still think Dany tailors her speeches to her crowd. With the Dothraki she's proud and boisterous like they are, with the Masters she was calm and arrogant, with the freed slaves she's their chain breaker and with the Greyjoy's she made their comparisons at what they all want, to be better than their fathers. She may not be good leader but she is a good motivational speaker. Whenever the person sitting on the Iron Throne needs to get their army ready they should send Dany atop her dragons, that'll get the army pumped to whatever mission you want them them to do. 

Tyrion is helping reign in Dany's crazy which is something none of her other advisers were able to do. That'll help her in the long run.I just wonder if the Greyjoy fleet sailing to Westeros will be flying the Targaryen flag besides theirs.

[Advance35]

Just now, Advance35 said:

I actually wouldn't be surprised if Sansa thought Rickon was dead when they learned he was in Ramsay's custody.  She knew that would motivate Jon to pursue possession on Winterfell and telling him that Rickon was a loss cause would have probably kicked the moral right out of him.   I do think there was a level of manipulation to it and I would have done the same thing in her shoes.  

I think Sansa is an immensely damaged young woman on the inside.  I don't think she'll ever TRULY trust anyone again and from her point of view I can't say it's unwise.  It's been a long time since she and Jon were together and just assuming someone will always act in your best interest because their family was a mistake she made with Lyssa.

Jon promising to protect Sansa and her saying "No one can protect me" was very telling.  I get the impression she is afraid ALL of the time and that's got to be exhausting. 

I thought as screen partners IR and ST had really great chemistry together so I'm going to miss their scenes for that reason.   Though I also think she has a very interesting dynamic with pretty much everyone, most especially, Jon Snow, LF, Cersei and Tyrion.

[stagmania]

6 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

I love  the Starks but none of them have been the sharpest of tacks. Sansa should have told Jon about the Vale's army, Jon shouldn't have charged, Rickon should have zig-zagged. Two weeks ago Arya should have been more alert and four weeks ago Bran shouldn't have gone on visions by himself.

My issue with this is that I don't think it's intentional characterization on the part of the show that all the Starks are idiots. It seems to be more a result of sloppy writing to move the plot where they want to. Arya wandering around Braavos unprotected, Sansa hiding key information from Jon, and Jon being a terrible commander all seem like obvious plot machinations in order to engineer big surprises and action sequences. It doesn't ring true to their characters, and if it's supposed to it's not adequately set up or explained, which is why we've spent the last several weeks trying to fanwank why the hell they're all behaving this way.

4 hours ago, loki567 said:

Good lord, why do people keep trying to explain the bad writing on this show? How many, "Arya vs Waif," discussions do we have to have before we realize that GoT doesn't do complex character motivations or well-thought-out planning? 

And this is what it all comes down to, IMO. The writing on this show is just not on the level I wish it was, and what we see on the screen is what we get, even if it doesn't make sense. They're clearly far more interested in spectacle, which is fine. The character arcs and plot twists may not hold up to scrutiny, but the show is always beautiful to look at, and some of the technical achievements are truly remarkable. I just hope they're able hold it all together enough to end the series in a way that rings true.

[Eyes High]

Sapochnik's work was amazing: beautiful and brutal. Can he direct every episode, please and thank you? 

The whole Saint Tyrion thing has been discussed to death, but TV Tyrion is so strange to me. For all that Book Tyrion is indeed Tywin writ small, TV Tyrion seems more and more like the anti-Tywin. Book Tyrion wants revenge, Casterly Rock, and the chance to rape and murder Cersei. TV Tyrion cares nothing for revenge and wants only a cause worth fighting for and a vineyard.  Book Tyrion gleefully poisons Nurse and muses that the wells outside Meereen should have been poisoned, while TV Tyrion berates Dany for her destructive plans. Something seems very strange about Sansa (so gentle in the books) arranging for and smirking at Ramsay's gruesome death while Tyrion (so vicious in the books) is urging peace and restraint and offering a comforting hand on the shoulder of the defeated master. 

[Constantinople]

4 hours ago, anamika said:

And why is Sansa not bothered at all about Rickon? Was she manipulating Jon with all the 'We have to save Rickon from the monster' and then turns around and tells him to give up rescuing their little brother before the battle?

Sansa told Jon they needed to save Rickon before they went on their Northern recruiting tour.  She pretty much expected the North to rise for her because her last name was Stark.  If that had happened, it might have been possible to negotiate with Ramsay to get Rickon out alive (or perhaps someone would have turned against Ramsay and snuck Rickon out as happened to Sansa herself).  But it didn't happen, and given the odds against them, I think Sansa had already mentally buried Rickon.  After all, she had already told Jon not to let her survive the battle if they lost.

[Hana Chan]

6 hours ago, OhOkayWhat said:

To the people saying: "Sansa did not have any reason to do not tell Jon about the Vale". The thing is this: I think Sansa heavy trust issues made it hard to tell anyone. Even if she trust Jon good heart and even if she knows that he wants to protect her, she does not trust he will act the way she thinks he should act. Notice that i said "the way she thinks..." because i am not saying either she is right and Jon is wrong.

I get that Sansa's got tremendous trust issues, but the one person thus far who didn't completely screw her over was her (presumed) half-brother. LF was the one who sold her to Ramsey, so to trust him to help her over Jon made absolutely no sense at all. And given that Jon and his men would be the ones on the front lines risking their lives while Sansa would only face physical danger if they lost, withholding the information that the Vale might very well be providing the reinforcements that they needed was inexcusable (IMO). And had Sansa offered more information than the fact that Ramsey liked to play head games (something Jon was aware of, even if he ended up falling prey to it), she would have had more of a place planning the battle. But she's not a warrior or a battle tactician. 

And it also put in sharp relief the differences in how Jon and Sansa were viewing this battle. For Sansa, this was personal. To destroy the man who'd taken over her home and brutalized her. But for Jon, he was seeing a much bigger picture. To him, Winterfell needed to be liberated in order to rally the north against the coming threat of the Night King and Ramsey was only going to destabilize the north further. And saving Rickon was a serious tactical consideration in that viewpoint. Sansa might have been willing to write her youngest sibling off, but Jon wasn't. Partly because he does still seem to have a very strong bond with the rest of the Starks (even if he's only a bastard, or if the fan theories pan out, their cousin). But he also recognized that neither he (a bastard) nor Sansa (a woman who had been married to both a Lannister and a Bolton) were not likely going to be able to rally the north. Rickon was (as far as Jon knew) the last living male heir to the Stark name (and even if Jon knew that Bran was alive, Bran is a cripple and would not be able to lead an army). Rikon had tremendous symbolic importance (even if as a character he had no real storyline and thus was the expendable Stark).

Sansa got her richly deserved revenge, but I was more moved by how Jon was able to get under Ramsey's skin and show that he was everything that Ramsey wasn't. And the beatdown I found nearly more satisfying than seeing Ramsey being devoured by his own hounds. But Jon and Sansa both have a great deal to learn about strategy and command.

Dany is finally learning the difference between conquering (which is the easy part) and actually ruling (which she has never done well). Tyrion finally got it through to her head that wiping out the noble houses of Westeros and laying waste would not be constructive and she had to consider how she was going to actually rule (rather than destroy) the countries that she was looking to take over. This is a huge leap for her and we saw that evidenced in her meeting with Theon and Vara. Not just allying with them because it gave her what she needed tactically, and not just granting the Iron Islands their autonomy but reining in the raiding and the raping out of consideration for how it would affect stability in her future kingdom. That is a tremendous shift in her way of thinking.

There was so much amazing stuff in this episode that I needed to immediately watch it again (which is why I'm a bit sleep deprived this morning). To start off with, the battle sequences as a whole were absolutely amazing and probably the best this show has ever produced. I appreciated that nearly the entire battle for Winterfell was seen from Jon's POV and we were able to get a real sense of the chaos and despair that comes from being in the heart of the battle. And seeing the direwolf sigal back in Winterfell... I'm very much forward to next week's opening credits and seeing Winterfell marked as it should be.

Edited June 20, 2016 by Hana Chan

[benteen]

Quote

Also: Tyrion, I love you, but given the amount of haha-you-don't-have-a-dick jokes you make, you're being a hypocrite. 

I also really liked how Theon, immediately after clarifying that he didn't kill Bran and Rickon, added that, "I did things that were just as bad, or worse." 

It's a shame that Varys left early as I would have loved to have seen him mentor Theon.  But I still stand by my idea/hope that Theon trains with the Unsullied.  That discipline might go a long way to truly fixing his mind and psyche. 

[Rhodri]

I still think Dany is going down the Mad King road (burn their cities to the ground!) but if she keeps listening to Tyrion, there is hope for her.   Dario will just cheer any atrocities she commits.

[Constantinople]

Interesting parallel between Edmure Who Blows and Jon.

Both threw it all way or almost threw it all away for a family member.

It would be nice if these guys remembered they owe duties to their people as well as their family.

[Tara Ariano]

Here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

Game Of Thrones Delivers Its Big Face-Off, Eye-Off, Nose-Off, And Spleen-Off

Bottom line: If you have a body part you care about, stay away from Winterfell this week.

[DropTheSoap]

Ramsey's game with Rickon did not surprise me. I did yell at the screen, "zig zag!" Also, "did Osha teach you nothing? Because you know nothing, Rickon Stark."

When Yara insisted on the handshake, I half-expected Dany to seal the deal with a kiss. 

[Boilergal]

22 minutes ago, DropTheSoap said:

When Yara insisted on the handshake, I half-expected Dany to seal the deal with a kiss. 

I was waiting for a lean in also!

[Constantinople]

Not only is Jon a terrible battlefield commander, he's also a terrible trash talker.

What's the point of offering one-on-one combat if not to retort

Quote

In the morning, then, coward

after Ramsay taunts

Quote

In the morning, then, bastard

And Sansa forgot to drop the mic after she said

Quote

You're going to die tomorrow, Lord Bolton

[jcin617]

Now I'm curious what the politics at Winterfell are going to be.   Does Sansa believe Bran will return and rule as Lady Regent in his name?  Will she assume the mantle in her own right?   Does she have the authority to legitimize Jon as a Stark?