S32.E14: Not Going Down Without A Fight / S32.E15: Reunion

[violet and green]

2 minutes ago, Shimmergloom said:

I think that's called Season 2 in Australia, when Colby dominated the challenges, but Tina dominated the social game and beat him, despite being 40 and not her 20's.  What most people consider the start of middle age varies from as low as 36 to as high as 45, so I think you can put her in that category.  Especially back in 2001, where I think being early 40's was considered older than early 40's are now.

Tina was overtly working a very good social game. Pretty well everyone really liked her, and often relied on her for emotional support. She played a pivotal role in the tribe. And her tribal council speech was not of a snivelling nature - so, no, I don't think that is an analogy for what I was hypothesising at all.

What I meant was take everything we saw of Michelle in this game and imagine her older. Anyway, it was just a thought. I think being pretty and inoffensive and crying worked in a younger woman's favor, in this instance, with this particular jury of boneheads, that's all.

(I was devastated for Colby, though, because it was his snotty choice to take Tina over, in his mind, letting that chef he hated get the $100,000. Big  mistake! Juries are strange beasts.)

[LanceM]

Not sure why you are harping on this younger woman thing since Michele is 24 and Aubry is 29.

[Miss Scarlet]

On 5/20/2016 at 2:32 PM, ljenkins782 said:

I know I personally found her voice so annoying I don't think I could take her seriously.  Is it vocal fry?  A Jersey accent?  Or just an unfortunate voice?

Quote

This may be another reason (in addition to being a talking head dud) that we didn't hear much from Michele until the last episode.  Mr. calico and I were trying to figure out what the accent was.  I know Jersey and it's not Jersey.  "Unfortunate" sounds about right. 

I thought her voice (not the accent) sounded a lot like Kat Edorsson's. 

I still don't get Probst comparing her to Parvati. I think Michele is much more relaxed and isn't as concerned with being in the spotlight or making sure everyone else knows how aggressive her gameplay is. I'd like to think he compared them because they're good social players, but I really think it was because Probst thinks all attractive women with the same hair colour are the same person. I wonder if he was unenthusiastic for this season because the final 4 was 3 women and a gay man, or because he was rooting for Aubry and disappointed that she didn't win.

And of course he didn't address the bullying this season. Maybe it's for the best, considering how he typically handles it. He only really laid into Dan because Dan had insulted the show, which personally implicates and offends Probst, of course. I'm telling myself that Survivor casts a disproportionate amount of jerks and that the majority of people are not like the assholes on this show. Is this just wishful thinking on my part? 

[azshadowwalker]

I was actually pleased when I heard that the bullying was ignored. Had I known that in advance, I would have watched all of the reunion. I didn't want to hear any of that ugliness rehashed. There's nothing to be gained or resolved, IMO.

Will Kyle become the great truth teller now, since he's bagging on Michele for Internet attention? Will his image be rewritten if he says what some want to hear, kind of like Nick? I think he is full of shit now, then and forever

Edited May 22, 2016 by azshadowwalker

[marys1000]

I went to bed after the winner was announced and then having read how awful the rest of the show was didn't watch.  Ratings ratings ratings.  They always feel they have to do something new for ratings but then ratings fall because everyone likes it the "old" way - where everyone who played got at least a sentence or two.  Its hard to feel bad when shows fail because they don't listen to their audience.  I feel like Burnett and Probst are just doing what they want, fuck the rest of us.

People!  Google Mark the chicken before you get so nasty about Tai.  He got Probst to promise to place Mark with a Cambodian farmer.  Even if that doesn't happen he lived longer than he would have because of Tai's protection.  Not to mention they weren't very far from a tourist resort and Mark could probably have made his way there.  So if you want to hate Tai - don't bring Mark into it. 

There are more than one type of social game and I've never really respected the Parvo sex kitten one.  That said Parvo did develop some strategy.  Michelle not so much.  Her social game was just being well liked, not having had to make the types of moves that pissed off jury members.  She survived and all but yes, disappointed.  I felt like Aubry and Tai both played much harder.  onestly I feel like they hardly showed her, you didn't know her at all till the last couple of episodes so.........did she not have any game to show? 

Felt like Aubry should have won  and Tai gotten at least a couple of votes.  Would have been happier with a Cydney in the F3.  The way Julia, Scot and Jason treated her at Ponderosa....what sore losers.  Julia is a piece of work for hanging with those two and Michelle and her are still close?  Want nothing to do with that 4. 

 

Last - all sorts of problems with the new Previous TV.  Can't edit while writing initial post, very slow, for some reason work it shows up a mess and I actually couldn't log in till today.  Plus I think its harder to read.  Yet another improvement that doesn't seem to have improved anythin 

Edited May 22, 2016 by marys1000

[peachmangosteen]

I think Michele's invisibleness is also being exaggerated. She had at least 1 confessional in 12 of the 14 episodes, same has Aubry. Aubry averaged 5 confessionals per ep, Michele averaged 4. Michele had 10+ confessionals in 2 episodes, same as Aubry.

Edited May 22, 2016 by peachmangosteen

[innocuouspuff]

And Natalie killed a rat!

Idk, while I see the argument that she didn't have a classic dude-style 'big moves' winner's edit, I am a bit puzzled to hear people say that Michele was invisible or not shown as underdog. I thought that we heard a lot - A LOT - of quotes from her about playing by herself, being all alone in the game, needing to ingratiate herself with the main group, being doomed if she didn't win immunity, etc for weeks. Starting with Julia's vote-out. And handwringing about needing immunity was often followed, of course, by Michele laying it down and winning immunity. All that was missing was the Rocky theme! And I think that's its own type of winner's edit, because why are they asking you to focus on what a long shot this person is if there isn't some degree of a happy ending?

Was Michele's win a little flukey? Sure. It happens. But being a gamebot and sitting next to a person who is so much better-liked than you at FTC is imo a huge misstep, one we've maybe forgotten about because it hasn't happened so much recently. Aubry committed to her Tai/Joe goat plan with the Debbie vote-out, and from there really had no alternative path to victory.

It happens. Would be curious about her game on a second try.

Edited May 22, 2016 by innocuouspuff

[peachmangosteen]

Great post, @innocuouspuff. I 100% agree.

7 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

But even Bob built a chair.  

Fucking Bob. Now there's a terrible winner. I'm all about there being no 'deserve' in Survivor, that whoever wins was the best, etc. but Bob sucked and didn't deserve to win, dammit!

[violet and green]

19 hours ago, LanceM said:

Not sure why you are harping on this younger woman thing since Michele is 24 and Aubry is 29.

Exsqueeze me?! I am viewing Michele as a younger woman as opposed to a middle-aged woman.*

I am not comparing the 'younger' Michele to Aubry. Not sure why you'd think that.

Now that you mention it, though, Aubry at 29 is going on 54.

(*But, darlinks, trust me, if you were an older woman you'd know exactly why this thought is  run through a seive.)

[SnarkKitty]

On 5/21/2016 at 0:27 AM, RedheadZombie said:

Cydney somehow credited Michelle with having a kind and generous heart and giving her a chance to make fire.  Yet Michelle admitted she didn't have any idea there would be a tie!  In fact, Cydney should remember that Michelle told Cydney she didn't need to practice.  Translation Cydney - she was not giving you a chance because she was completely out of touch with that vote.

I've seen a number of variations on the idea that Michelle didn't give Cydney a chance and/or Cydney shouldn't have rewarded her with her vote. While Michelle may not have been aware it would be a tie from the first vote (clearly), she absolutely knew and could have changed her vote for the re-vote. But she didn't. Thus, the idea that Michelle didn't give Cydney a chance has no basis in fact. She gave her a chance by not changing her vote, and allowing Cydney to fight for herself by making fire.

If I'm Cydney and Michelle is in the final? That right there might be worth giving her my vote. 

[SlackerInc]

I know the reunion shows always suck (at least for the past number of years), but have they ever completely not talked to the 4th place player, the way they snubbed Cydney?  Apparently Probst took note of how engaging she was in her Ponderosa video; why wouldn't he want to see if some of that would come out at the live reunion?  And in 2016, to so blatantly ignore an F4 contestant who is female and African American seems especially questionable and just something the corporate people at CBS wouldn't want.  I don't know if it has engendered any protests or anything, but I could easily see that happening.

[Shimmergloom]

I think they ignored Cydney cause they didn't want to bring up the bullying aspect and how she was treated would have had to come up.  And I think they ignored the bullying aspect, cause there could be no reminders to the audience that Tai partook in said tactics by pouring water on the fire and then bullying Michele about why she was left out.  And they needed Tai to have a good image so that Sia could come on stage and give him 50k.

[LadyChatts]

Could be Jeff intended on talking to Cydney, but the Sia moment ran longer than expected.  When you factor in having to talk to the winner, Aubry and Tai (2 popular players), talk about Mark the chicken, Sia, the plug for The Price is Right, eccentric character Debbie, and Scot's blindside (more Tai time), plus Probst's fave Julia, throw in commercials, and with the reunion not even starting until after 10:10, I can see where they had to take someone off the docket.  Probst himself has said that he'd love more time for the reunion, but CBS won't allow it.  However, I know the reunion typically starts after ten, but I thought it started even later than usual this year.  Especially when we had a final 4, not a final 5.  

When you look back at some recent 4th place finishers, you have Wentworth, Rodney, Keith, and Spencer.  I can see why they'd be harder to ignore than Cydney.  To be honest, she was kind of a non factor for me until the last few weeks of the season.  Whatever the case, I hope Cydney returns to play the game again one day.  She is someone that I think would be a bigger threat the second time around, but completely underestimated.

[ghoulina]

16 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

Fucking Bob. Now there's a terrible winner. I'm all about there being no 'deserve' in Survivor, that whoever wins was the best, etc. but Bob sucked and didn't deserve to win, dammit!

Haha, I don't want to get too far OT, but this just goes to show how different viewers value different things. Bob is one of my favorite Survivor winners ever. 

[ghoulina]

10 hours ago, SlackerInc said:

 

I know the reunion shows always suck (at least for the past number of years), but have they ever completely not talked to the 4th place player, the way they snubbed Cydney?

 

I don't remember them ever not talking to anyone who made it that late in the game. It was very noticeable to me. I think there's a lot more they could have talked to her about, besides the Jerk Brothers and the bullying that went on. Cyd was a tough player, who left an alliance, formed new ones, and got damn far in the game. She deserved to be talked to. The crap with Sia and Tai ran on way too long, but they still talked to others after that who weren't in the game as long as Cydney was. I get talking to Caleb, because his medavac was a big deal, but they could have left out Debbie. The entire show was full of too much filler, and this is the first time I remember so few contestants being spoken to.

[Special K]

9 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

No one is ever engaging to me on the reunion show.  I guess this year Joe was the closest, because he was at least concise.  Usually, people babble on like they're just dying to milk this last 30 seconds of air time and it all feels so ridiculous and mactor-ish.

I think they are mostly drunk (or tipsy).  Don't they sit backstage, watching the show and drinking?

Or is that just the Project Runway reunion shows?

[LadyChatts]

Last season is a bad example since it was returning players.  Going back to the WA reunion show, Sierra was completely ignored, despite finishing 5th (even if she was a non entity).  My memory is fuzzy on a lot of reunion shows, since I only remember the characters or big moments getting talked to/about.  But I have to think other 4th place finishers have been ignored or had very, very limited airtime.

[Special K]

Watching the Reunion show always feels like that last, ill-advised margarita you order at the end of a long, fun night out with friends.  It  seems like a great idea to continue the merriment, but it usually never is, and you regret staying up late, feel kind of sick and full of self-loathing, and don't remember what happened anyway.

Edited May 23, 2016 by Special K

[needschocolate]

I gave up hoping the reunion would actually be a reunion a long time ago.  Now I just tune in to see what everyone looks like after they are hydrated, fed, and sprayed with a make-up gun

[jsm1125]

Sherri, Eddye, and Erik were totally ignored at the Caramoan reunion, despite coming in 2nd (tied with Dawn), 4th and 5th, respectively.

[LadyChatts]

Gah, maybe there was a reunion worse than the original AS and this season.  Totally forgot about Caramoan, but that is one season I try and pretend never happened.  I think all those involved do the same.

[LadyChatts]

9 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

Was that the one where half the cast was made to sit in the audience?  

Yep.  All the pre-merge people.

[Mreid]

I dont mind rooting for an underdog on a show like the amazing race but with Survivor or Big Brother, I want the person who played the best strategic gameplay to win and that just wasnt Michelle it just wasnt im sorry. That jury was bitter Julia, Scott, Jason, Debbie even Cydney was bitter, Im shocked she didnt vote for Aubry, her ride or die person who she made all of the blindsides with, I would have thought she would at least given Aubry a vote.

[LanceM]

8 minutes ago, Mreid said:

I dont mind rooting for an underdog on a show like the amazing race but with Survivor or Big Brother, I want the person who played the best strategic gameplay to win and that just wasnt Michelle it just wasnt im sorry. That jury was bitter Julia, Scott, Jason, Debbie even Cydney was bitter, Im shocked she didnt vote for Aubry, her ride or die person who she made all of the blindsides with, I would have thought she would at least given Aubry a vote.

 

That may be what YOU want in a winner but that doesn't mean that is what the jury wants in a winner and just because they didn't vote the way you wanted that does not mean that they were bitter.

[Al Herkimer]

If he did nothing else, the incredible quality of Bob's fake immunity idol won him a spot in the Hall of Fame.

[LadyChatts]

2 hours ago, Mreid said:

I dont mind rooting for an underdog on a show like the amazing race but with Survivor or Big Brother, I want the person who played the best strategic gameplay to win and that just wasnt Michelle it just wasnt im sorry. That jury was bitter Julia, Scott, Jason, Debbie even Cydney was bitter, Im shocked she didnt vote for Aubry, her ride or die person who she made all of the blindsides with, I would have thought she would at least given Aubry a vote.

It's hard for me to get too upset with a TAR outcome, even if my least favorite wins, because so much of that is luck.  Big Brother, like Survivor, I like the best player to win.  What the best player does to get there, that's all up for debate.  I made it clear I don't care for the social game aspect as much as I do the big moves and blindsides.  If that person can also play one heck of a social game?  Great.  No one will ever convince me that Russell didn't lose on popularity, even if he did play the better strategic game.  I would have tuned out long ago if the only thing that ever won was a social game.  I'd be curious if/how the jury would change their votes if they had even a month to get away from the game and absorb it all.  Would they be too proud to say they would have change their votes?  I don't know.  I do think Aubry lost some votes based on bitterness.  Whether it would have mattered enough to give her the win, I don't know.   

Edited May 24, 2016 by LadyChatts

[Cynna]

On 2016-05-20 at 10:25 PM, backformore said:

 I couldn't take my eyes off Jason's weird choice of attire.   From the pastel floral jacket to the earlobe plugs (did they have WINGS?)  he was looking very strange.

I think even Don Cherry was embarrassed by Jason's outfit. When I saw the lobe plugs I wondered if he was opening an Etsy shop.

On 2016-05-21 at 0:14 PM, RedheadZombie said:

And while there are a few comments here and there about Michelle's voice, visit Debbie's thread and see the absolutely horrific things said about her appearance.  How many pictures there are of the Wicked Witch.  And there weren't many people objecting to a middle aged woman being reduced to her looks, or how wrong it was to pick on her appearance, or discussion of the middle-aged woman's burden.  There were so many other things that could have been legitimately used to criticize her, but her looks and her body were the primary focus.

I recall a lot of hate thrown Aubry's way early on here for her 'frowny face'.

On 2016-05-21 at 0:54 PM, Shimmergloom said:

 But even after all that, she's being accuse of just winning cause she was pretty...Which actually is a huge insult to Aubry, cause it's not like she was not attractive.

Personally I found Michelle average looking, and thought Aubry more attractive. At the reunion, Aubrey was stunning.

On 2016-05-21 at 3:46 PM, LanceM said:

(I would also add that Jason and Aubry are friends post game so I'd factor that into his comments as well)

I hadn't seen this, but have seen a lot of pics with Scot, Jason, Julia, and Michelle partying and hanging out together. The four of them seem pretty tight.

Edited May 24, 2016 by Cynna
fixing quote

[marys1000]

I just want to say that I give kudo's? to all the players for just staying on that germ infested beach. After seeing those huge pus monsters with black I think I would have gotten myself out of there post hast somehow. Faked an injury, asked to be voted off, something. I would like to know more about it, why it was happening. I notice on overhead that there seemed to be a river outlet nearby. Maybe sewage from the nearby tourist resort isn't being reliably treated? Also would like to know more about everyone's infections but they seem to keep that quiet, like part of the nondisclosure agreement though I don't know why.

[LanceM]

12 hours ago, marys1000 said:

I just want to say that I give kudo's? to all the players for just staying on that germ infested beach. After seeing those huge pus monsters with black I think I would have gotten myself out of there post hast somehow. Faked an injury, asked to be voted off, something. I would like to know more about it, why it was happening. I notice on overhead that there seemed to be a river outlet nearby. Maybe sewage from the nearby tourist resort isn't being reliably treated? Also would like to know more about everyone's infections but they seem to keep that quiet, like part of the nondisclosure agreement though I don't know why.

Well since you asked. Liz wasn't evacuated from the game but she did have to get surgery for some pretty nasty infections. She took some photos.  

WARNING:  they are pretty gory

http://imgur.com/a/eR7ex

[FineWashables]

What always makes me puke in my mouth a little is when a contestant brags that "when I really had to, I dug in and won immunity." So... you didn't really try to win any other challenges?  What a load of horseshit.

[Ms Blue Jay]

On 5/22/2016 at 5:27 PM, innocuouspuff said:

. But being a gamebot and sitting next to a person who is so much better-liked than you at FTC is imo a huge misstep, one we've maybe forgotten about because it hasn't happened so much recently.

Isn't that... Spencer?

Edited May 26, 2016 by Ms Blue Jay

[azshadowwalker]

On 5/21/2016 at 0:54 PM, Shimmergloom said:

...accuse of just winning cause she was pretty. 

To add to what you said (which I agree with), the nastiness aimed at attractive young women does exist, and is misogynistic to its core. It's playing off every negative stereotype of women (vapid, shallow, vain, having nothing to offer besides physical attractiveness, not smart, etc, etc, etc) and using it to attack a young woman for no reason beyond her youth and beauty. It's commonly used to dismiss a woman. Anyone who compares it to "white man's burden" isn't really analyzing how beauty is used against women whether we have it or we don't. The two things have nothing in common.

If we ever needed another example of how this works, Michele was prime. She never employed flirting, never talked about her looks, never gave any hint that she was relying on anything but her actual game play. Yet, her looks have been brought up repeatedly in an effort to dismiss her.

Edited May 27, 2016 by azshadowwalker

[innocuouspuff]

7 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Isn't that... Spencer?

Hmmn, only in the sense that I didn't finish my thought I guess. :) The key thing I was thinking about wasn't "a gamebot lost at FTC", but that the winner is someone who mainly won on likeability/friendship. Which I think is a perfectly valid way to win, but I don't know if we can accuse Jeremy of falling into that category? He was solidly in the midst of the strategy all season, though dislike of Spencer of course spurred the shut-out.

Most of the examples people have been giving fall into the middle-ish seasons it seems. I think juries want to vote for the most liked and strategic, but if only one out of two is possible, it's always possible they'll pick most liked or least hated over most strategic.  But I don't think the Second Chances jury really ended up having to cut that baby in half. 

It was actually Rob C on his show who suggested that maybe we've been spoiled by good gameplay lately. Usually if someone's the kind of stealth jury threat that Michele turned out to be, they're spotted and unceremoniously voted out at F6 or F7.

[azshadowwalker]

Jeremy was shown going along with the plans laid out by others more than once. The ally he worked to keep around got voted out, anyway. He benefited from having people that weren't as well liked next to him at FTC. If Michele is no strategic mastermind, I don't consider Jeremy one, either. Especially since he needed two chances to get his win, and still wasn't really running the game in the sense of strategic masterminds like Boston Rob, Brian Heidyk, Cirie, Parvati, and Hatch, among others.

[Ms Blue Jay]

To be clear, I thought Jeremy played a beautiful and strategic game.  I just thought that that description fit Spencer.

[innocuouspuff]

9 hours ago, azshadowwalker said:

Jeremy...benefited from having people that weren't as well liked next to him at FTC. 

I should hope so! I'm not really much of a ranker of winners, but EVERYBODY should be trying to benefit from this at FTC. If you leave in the charming family man or fun bartender lady, then frankly you deserve what you get.

[himela]

The worst part is Jason admitting after having watched the whole season that Aybry indeed played a great game and had he known this back then he would have probably voted for her instead. This shows future players that it's good to scheme and plot secretly but not THAT secretly that nobody knows the moves you made in the end...

[simplyme]

Eh.  It's also been a year and Jason saw fan reaction and has a different relationship now with the people he played with than he did then.  I'd take his revisionist view with a grain of salt.

[KimberStormer]

Back from vacation, here in the dark obscurity of a Past Season forum.  Oh well.  Let's see what I have to say.  Perhaps because it's been so long and we're in this hidden oubliette, I can get away with a little light boards-on-boards.

I'm not disappointed by Michele's win.  Basically I didn't care who won out of the final 4, who all seemed equally flawed and deserving to me.  I was semi-rooting for her as an underdog, as I thought Aubry had it in the bag and it would be a totally boring 2 hours if everything went her way.  When it became clear Michele was totally going to win at FTC I was surprised, but not in the least unhappy, and it was honestly a surprise to me to come here and see all the moaning.  It's funny how people will always insist to me that you can't not deserve it, if you get the votes you win, there's no such thing as a bitter jury, etc etc until their fave loses.  I will classlessly quote myself:

On ‎5‎/‎14‎/‎2016 at 10:31 AM, KimberStormer said:

[winning or losing] has nothing to do with any of those things except social game.  People don't give you credit for finding idols, winning immunity, providing at camp etc, unless they like you.  That stuff is ultimately irrelevant, for better or worse. 

To this list I must add, regretfully, "playing the best strategic game".  Of the final 3, I think Aubry probably did that, and might put Tai second, but it doesn't matter if they didn't persuade the jury to like them.  I do think Aubry's game was fucked by Joe eating too much beef, which does suck for her, but such are the whims of the Survivor Gods.  I've heard it argued that Brian Heidik's only getting exactly enough votes to win, and only if he brought the exact right person, proves his genius--"he didn't need her, so he didn't even know her name!" but this result shows the problem with that approach: what if your goat is medevac'd?  You go down like Aubry did.  Clearly she didn't work the social game well enough, and the social game is the game.

I was surprised she didn't get the Ugly Tattoo Boys, I admit.  I really thought at the time the juror-vote-out twist was going to be pointless because no matter who you eliminated there were too many votes for Aubry.  I thought Neal, Joe, Cupcake, Benchwarmer, maybe Debbie, maybe Nick for Aubry; Julia, Cydney, maybe Nick, maybe Debbie for Michele.  But I was totally wrong, because of those two guys.  I am being honest when I say I just don't think the idea that they voted for Michele because she was pretty and feminine is right.  Who knows.  Maybe they were telling the truth when they said Michele came up strong at the end -- it's true she did, and if it's a weird reason to vote for someone, that's also Survivor.

As for the twist, in retrospect it probably worked as well as it ever could, because Neal probably had as good a chance as anyone to persuade the jury, and it was relatively close as these things go, and also Neal proved he is a massive dick at Ponderosa and again in his parting words (why was he allowed parting words, show??) so it was great to see him made totally irrelevant and powerless in the game.  Suck it, Neal.  I'm not really fond of it as a twist, though.  Maybe if they knew it was going to happen, it might have made for interesting strategic wrinkles, but really by the final 3 there's not a whole lot it can accomplish--last season, for example, would still be unanimous for Jeremy, no matter who was eliminated.  And I would have much preferred a Final 2, though really it would have been Tai VS Winner in any case so FTC would have been more boring.

Speaking of Tai, far beyond my surprise at people being mad that Aubry didn't win, I'm surprised people were mad at Tai for leaving Mark.  Every other chicken (except Gloria, thanks @LanceM) was killed and eaten.  I don't understand what on earth can make that OK but not leaving Mark.  And also, when I was young my family adopted a cat in a southeast Asian country and brought her back to the USA, which was a total bureaucratic nightmare of quarantine and paperwork which the poor kitty barely survived--and cats were by far the easiest animals to import.  If there was one thing you could never, ever, ever bring home, it was a bird (my brother also adopted a magnificent bastard of a rooster on that trip, so we looked it up).  It's simply impossible for Tai to have brought Mark home.  Chill, guys.

[peachmangosteen]

Quote

[winning or losing] has nothing to do with any of those things except social game.  People don't give you credit for finding idols, winning immunity, providing at camp etc, unless they like you.  That stuff is ultimately irrelevant, for better or worse. 

This may be my favorite thing you've ever said, @KimberStormer. Because it's just so 100% true. And it always has been. For 32 seasons it's been the same way. I would think longtime viewers would just be used to it by now.

I think the problem comes from the editors still having no idea how to make it clear which people are likable and which aren't (when it comes to female players). Although maybe they don't want to because it would make the endings pretty unsurprising. But hell most of them are anyway!

Edited May 28, 2016 by peachmangosteen

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

On May 19, 2016 at 4:53 PM, piequinn35 said:

I understood why Cyd voted for Michele because she gave her a chance at f4 to fight for the spot in f3

but I don't get it why Deb voted for Michele :/

 

Really?

Wasn't Debbie aligned with Aubry, and wasn't Aubry the leader in blindsiding Debbie? Her vote against Aubry is one of the most predictable jury votes.

Edited May 30, 2016 by Deputy Deputy CoS

[peachmangosteen]

56 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I've never seen the show as a popularity contest. 

I've always seen it this way.

Edited May 30, 2016 by peachmangosteen

[cherrypj]

2 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

That's why we hear so much each season about "big moves".   

We hear so much about big moves because the producers prefer them: that's the story they try to push down our throats. That's the story they prefer to see and find easier to show, whether the narrative fits or not. I think that explains why Aubry and Tai got bigger edits compared to Michelle. 

[piequinn35]

14 hours ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

 

Really?

Wasn't Debbie aligned with Aubry, and wasn't Aubry the leader in blindsiding Debbie? Her vote against Aubry is one of the most predictable jury votes.

Yes I know that, that's why Deb was bitter too, I always wanted people who made big moves to win

rather than people who got lucky and/or who won immunity at the final IC :)

[KimberStormer]

1 hour ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

You would think if it's about popularity no one would have blood on their hands, find idols, win challenges or make big moves.  

Ah but that's the entire beautiful thing about Survivor!  You need to get to the end first.  If you're likeable and a jury threat, a winner of the schmooze game, you can't make it to the end without doing something.  Even if it's just win key challenges in Fabio/Mike/Michele style.  People drag goats to the end, not great social gamers (except Russell, because Russell's a moron).  To me there's an incredible balance Burnett & Co. stumbled upon, I believe entirely by accident, that you can't play alone, you can't win together; you can't get to the end without hurting people, but you can't win without them liking you.  That amazing tension between what you need to do to get the chance to win, and what you need to do to win.

Anyway I don't mean to say that it's only a social game, that moves and idols and challenges and helping at camp life don't matter at all -- only that you need good social game to sort of activate those things, and make them relevant to the jury.  If you hate someone, you react like most people on the forums do about Russell -- you don't give him credit for finding idols, you say it's cheating, idols are ruining the game, it made things too easy for him, probably the producers were giving them to him in secret.  You don't give Hated Finalist X credit for her challenge wins, you say "YOU ONLY COASTED ON YOUR CHALLENGE WINS!  PROVE TO ME YOU DID ANYTHING IN THIS GAME!"  You don't even give them credit for strategic game, you say (this one always makes me laugh) it's really easy to get to the end by betraying everyone; but I respect someone who can do it with integrity!  (Sure it's easy, jury member, and you only got voted out because you wanted to add that extra challenge by being loyal...)

But if they like you then they give you credit.  So therefore Kim's final 3 -- sitting there with two other well-liked women, both less complicit in voting people out, would be suicide if the jury didn't like Kim.  But they did like Kim, so they rewarded her for totally running the game and dominating challenges, rather than Chelsea and Sabrina who didn't do as much.  Also, it's relative; if it's three people they hate, just make sure you're the one they hate least.  That's why bringing goats is a great strategic plan, despite the whining it provokes online. 

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

20 hours ago, piequinn35 said:

Yes I know that, that's why Deb was bitter too, I always wanted people who made big moves to win

rather than people who got lucky and/or who won immunity at the final IC :)

Easy for you to as a viewer to say.  Debbie the one who lived it felt differently, and acted accordingly

A case of a bitter jury can be made if she didn't have a legitimate reason to vote against Aubry. Part of Survivor is earning votes in the end. Backstabbing an alley is definitely not a way to earn their vote.

[ProfCrash]

Deb and Aubrey were at odds with each other during the game. Deb wanted to keep Peter and the Brains united. Aubrey wanted Peter gone and was less attached to the idea of keeping all the Brains. Aubrey ended up working against Deb's plan and it cost Deb her game. Deb said that she would not vote from Aubrey as soon as she was voted out. I am reasonably certain that Deb said in a talking head that she would not vote for Aubrey before she was voted out. The two did not see eye to eye and it was pretty clear that they did not approve of each others game.

Had Deb decided that she wouldn't vote for Aubrey when she was voted out I would say that Deb was bitter but Deb was clear that she did not like Aubrey's game while in the game so I have no problem with her not voting for Aubrey.

[Dobian]

On ‎5‎/‎30‎/‎2016 at 9:17 AM, cherrypj said:

We hear so much about big moves because the producers prefer them: that's the story they try to push down our throats. That's the story they prefer to see and find easier to show, whether the narrative fits or not. I think that explains why Aubry and Tai got bigger edits compared to Michelle. 

Big moves are great for entertainment and ratings, and great for helping a player get to the end.  But the final vote is still up to the whim of the jury.