The Duggars: In the Media and TLC

[Churchhoney]

9 minutes ago, SMama said:

Sorry @Churchhoney, not fully awake. ?

No problem, @SMama. Me neither!    ;   )

[Marshmallow Mollie]

Re: the abuse started 5-6 yrs ago when the dad last his job. For the children in their 20s, with one as old as 29, the malnutrition would have had to have started earlier in order to stunt their growth, right?

I don't know the answer. I have a morbid fascination with how abuse affects the body's development.

[SMama]

I would not call it morbid, it is simply a subject that fascinates you. I agree that if they fell apart in that time frame it does not explain the adult children’s condition. Or the 17 year old. The mother is a fertile myrtle if she was pregnant at 47. There’s a lot of speculation about that child. The last thing she needs is to find it on the internet later in life. They have all suffered too much.

[zoomama]

so this morning it was made clear that the photos of the house in texas were taken 20 years ago!  the new owners thought that dogs had been locked inside thus the damage. 20 years ago!!!  this is no new thing for them. 

Edited January 18, 2018 by zoomama
spelling counts for something....

[SMama]

Wow, according to the DA the children were planning their escape for two years. A sibling left with the 17 year old hero but became frightened and returned home. Poor kids.

Not throwing shade at the sibling, captivity damages the psyche. 

Edited January 18, 2018 by SMama

[zoomama]

smama, i just watched it to and frankly, it sounds MUCH worse than i had thought.  i bet anything that the baby is not the mothers but is one of the girls' baby.  i felt physically nauseous listening to that press conference. 

[Natalie68]

4 hours ago, Churchhoney said:

Well, it's possible that the father, never fully stable but close to it, really did flip out and lose it when he lost his last job. There's been speculation about that since the story seems to be that the family seemed okay although highly eccentric and somewhat culty when they were last regularly seen by family and acquaintances, five to six years ago.

But when the father lost his last job and they moved, he may have lost a lot of his mind, too. .... Maybe he'd set up a system of relatively benign control and "togetherness" and then when his income disappeared he completely lost it and could no longer tell rational measures from irrational when it came to "protecting" the kids from the un-Christian world we live in. That "protection" thing seems to come up a lot in connection with this family. 

And if he no longer had the means to care properly for the giant brood he'd produced when he was making a good salary, he might have just lost it, descended into confusion and deepened paranoia about the threats the world poses and started taking increasingly extreme measures to do what looked to him like "holding his family together." If you combine that with a really bad financial situation that he'd never faced before and didn't know how to handle, I think you could get something like he horror that's been found. 

What? .... I quoted more than I meant to of your post. I was just commenting that J is probably the letter a lot of them go to because it stands for "Jesus" and then making a bad joke about them misunderstanding the KJB "suffer the children" line. In other words, NVM  ;  ) 

 

 

 

On another note -- 

A comment on not fleeing whatever situation you happen to be in: 

'Psychiatrists say that even in cases of extreme deprivation, it's common for feelings of helplessness or confusion to lead to staying in place despite opportunities to flee.

'"This happens all the time. The number of individuals who would immediately respond to an opportunity where they could get away is very small compared to the number of people who would have that paralysis and insecurity and confusion about what to do," said Dr. Bruce Perry, a psychiatrist and senior fellow at The ChildTrauma Academy in Houston.'

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/grandparents-reveal-details-about-13-siblings-starved-tortured-by-parents/

I admit I have not been following this story because it makes me nearly violent.  I have seen what you are saying about these parents only really losing their shit in the last 5-6 years.  I wonder how that can be?  One of the 'kids' was 29 (5-6 years ago would have still been an adult)  and from what I am hearing they all looked REALLY young from being starved etc.  I think they have always been crazy as fuck, have always treated their kids this way and no one noticed before.  If what Zoomama is saying is true about their Texas house (of horrors) this has been going on a long ass time.  The paternal grandmother, who defended her son, should never be allowed contact with them again.  

[SMama]

I’m waiting for my doctor and since I forgot my earphones missed it. Got the info from SBaba, and I’m steeling myself to watch later. TWO YEARS planning, there was some serious supervision there. I’m very impressed with the children, they fought their way out as a team. 

To the 19, “You can do it.” Aging myself with that Olympic reference.

[Churchhoney]

10 minutes ago, Natalie68 said:

I admit I have not been following this story because it makes me nearly violent.  I have seen what you are saying about these parents only really losing their shit in the last 5-6 years.  I wonder how that can be?  One of the 'kids' was 29 (5-6 years ago would have still been an adult)  and from what I am hearing they all looked REALLY young from being starved etc.  I think they have always been crazy as fuck, have always treated their kids this way and no one noticed before.  If what Zoomama is saying is true about their Texas house (of horrors) this has been going on a long ass time.  The paternal grandmother, who defended her son, should never be allowed contact with them again.  

Well ,what I've seen suggests that they may have been Rodriguez-like or Duggars-before-TeeVee-like for many years. Which meant food shortages and psychological nuttiness and intense emotional control but no actual starvation, no chains, full bathroom privileges (for those who can stand in line long enough) and so on. But of course, as you say, that also may not be true. 

Still, look at the Rodriguezes and the Duggars even now -- The Rodriguezes look very young and very thin, but probably not exactly starved. And everybody talks about how the Duggar boys look both pre-teen and middle-aged as teenagers and 20-somethings. Jim Bob Duggar was in the legislature when his kids were living in quite extreme conditions -- tiny house, eating charity food left on the porch -- yet they were viewed as quite near normal. They even got a tv show out of it as role models. And now there are older kids living at home, going into arranged marriages, etc., and they're trapped. Just not with chains. It's not unusual at all for a 23-year-old, say, to be in that situation at the Duggars or Rodriguzes or Maxwells or many others. And there are a lot of other families living in that same gray area. 

But there's a fine line between that area and the total chaos they've just found in California. And these people may have been in the gray area and then slipped over it. A 20-something who never dreams of leaving home or going to school and who's felt minor food shortages and so on might pretty easily remain trapped and end up starving and chained if parents suddenly really lost it. That young person has already practiced being in an unnaturally confining situation, just not one that put him or her in mortal peril.  

I'm not saying this is what happened. I don't know either what happened. But I don't think it's out of the question that a line was crossed at some point that nobody saw coming. 

[Natalie68]

1 minute ago, Churchhoney said:

Well ,what I've seen suggests that they may have been Rodriguez-like or Duggars-before-TeeVee-like for many years. Which meant food shortages and psychological nuttiness and intense emotional control but no actual starvation, no chains, full bathroom privileges (for those who can stand in line long enough) and so on. But of course, as you say, that also may not be true. 

Still, look at the Rodriguezes and the Duggars even now -- The Rodriguezes look very young and very thin, but probably not exactly starved. And everybody talks about how the Duggar boys look both pre-teen and middle-aged as teenagers and 20-somethings. Jim Bob Duggar was in the legislature when his kids were living in quite extreme conditions -- tiny house, eating charity food left on the porch -- yet they were viewed as quite near normal. They even got a tv show out of it as role models. And now there are older kids living at home, going into arranged marriages, etc., and they're trapped. Just not with chains. It's not unusual at all for a 23-year-old, say, to be in that situation at the Duggars or Rodriguzes or Maxwells or many others. And there are a lot of other families living in that same gray area. 

But there's a fine line between that area and the total chaos they've just found in California. And these people may have been in the gray area and then slipped over it. A 20-something who never dreams of leaving home or going to school and who's felt minor food shortages and so on might pretty easily remain trapped and end up starving and chained if parents suddenly really lost it. That young person has already practiced being in an unnaturally confining situation, just not one that put him or her in mortal peril.  

I'm not saying this is what happened. I don't know either what happened. But I don't think it's out of the question that a line was crossed at some point that nobody saw coming. 

That def could be.  No one knows for sure.  I find it super sad and it tells me that homeschoolers need to have some standards with outsiders regularly checking on the kids.  The kids need someone looking out for them.  I do think most homeschoolers do not fall under this sort of nuttery but these 13 kids are forever changed because no one was really looking out for them.  

[Churchhoney]

2 minutes ago, Natalie68 said:

That def could be.  No one knows for sure.  I find it super sad and it tells me that homeschoolers need to have some standards with outsiders regularly checking on the kids.  The kids need someone looking out for them.  I do think most homeschoolers do not fall under this sort of nuttery but these 13 kids are forever changed because no one was really looking out for them.  

Yeah, it's horrifying, isn't it? That's one reason having the Duggars on tv has always really horrified me. Because I think they've just been very very lucky and that people who are less lucky and maybe just a tiny bit less stable could conceivably emulate them, be unlucky, and then one day plunge into something really bad, maybe even as bad as this ...Unfortunately, the homeschooling rules just keep going in the opposite direction. 

[frenchtoast]

Let's move the talk about the Turpins to Small Talk, please? It's the best home for the discussion. Thanks!

[Rabbittron]

https://www.thehollywoodgossip.com/2018/01/duggar-family-church-outraged-by-pants-wearing-duggar-daughters/

 

Can you believe that bullshit permission of the husband are we living in the 1800s?

Edited January 18, 2018 by Rabbittron
Forgot to mention my opinion

[kokapetl]

24 minutes ago, Rabbittron said:

https://www.thehollywoodgossip.com/2018/01/duggar-family-church-outraged-by-pants-wearing-duggar-daughters/

 

Can you believe that bullshit permission of the husband are we living in the 1800s?

Honestly, I don’t believe the story. 

[jennblevins]

Quote

“Jeremy, a pastor in Laredo, Texas, has famously said that he doesn't believe Jesus saves people to force them to wear skirts.

That's probably theologically sound.”

Regardless of the truth of the story, I have to give them credit for making me literally laugh out loud — usually reading about the Duggars is just depressing. 

Edited January 18, 2018 by jennblevins
Way too many line breaks.

[BetyBee]

The article stated that the Duggar rules include no tight clothing.  They forgot to add "until pregnancy one is expecting."

[BitterApple]

I think the story is likely exaggerated, but I remember Alyssa Bates getting hateful comments when she started wearing jeans, so there probably are people in their circles who disapprove. However I don't think the church is ready to hold a public flogging, the way the article is making it seem.

[LilJen]

22 hours ago, queenanne said:

Somebody somewhere along the line, said the ‘J’ is for Jesus, which makes such vast amounts of retro sense I’m surprised no one has said it for or about the Duggars.  Unfortunately I can’t recall where I read it.

So, if Jesus had gotten married and had kids, would all his kids have had J names?

11 hours ago, Churchhoney said:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/grandparents-reveal-details-about-13-siblings-starved-tortured-by-parents/

I'm trying to wrap my head around the idea that the parents had at least 3 vow renewal ceremonies WITH AN ELVIS IMPERSONATOR.

4 hours ago, Rabbittron said:

https://www.thehollywoodgossip.com/2018/01/duggar-family-church-outraged-by-pants-wearing-duggar-daughters/

 

Can you believe that bullshit permission of the husband are we living in the 1800s?

Wait, females have LEGS??? Reminds me of the scene in The King and I where the king's wives/concubines think that Deborah Kerr has no legs because she wears those huge hoopskirted dresses.

[SMama]

I thought the Duggars attend Caldwell’s church. I doubt Pastor Caldwell will allow negative talk about his daughter’s gravy train in laws. How big is that church anyway?

Edited January 19, 2018 by SMama

[BetyBee]

I just subscribed to the podcast "Reality Life with Kate Casey" and the Jan 19 interview was with Amy Duggar!  Amy spilled nothing, just rambled on about how sweet the Duggars are and what a classy woman Michelle is etc.  She often referred to the fun they used to have and I'd say she was being honest there.  As an only child, it was probably a blast to visit a houseful of cousins.  The interview ended just after Amy suggested Kate ask her some questions about herself and Dillon.  Here's a link to the podcast:

https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/wondery/reality-life-with-kate-casey

[madpsych78]

1 hour ago, BetyBee said:

 The interview ended just after Amy suggested Kate ask her some questions about herself and Dillon. 

That sounds really funny to me. Like Amy was done talking about the Duggars and wanted to talk about herself and so Kate was like, "Time's up!" LOL

[Marshmallow Mollie]

3 hours ago, BetyBee said:

Amy often referred to the fun they used to have and I'd say she was being honest there.  As an only child, it was probably a blast to visit a houseful of cousins.  

I have wondered if this isn't why Jessa brings her kids to the TTH so often, or at least one of the reasons. She talks about her childhood with a lot of nostalgia. Offhand, I can't recall another Duggar talking about their childhood as much as Jessa does. I suspect she thinks it's good for her kids to be around a hoard of kids to play with as much as possible - just like she did.

[Mollie]

3 hours ago, madpsych78 said:

That sounds really funny to me. Like Amy was done talking about the Duggars and wanted to talk about herself and so Kate was like, "Time's up!" LOL

Amy still can't get it through her head that nobody cares about her or Dillon.

In that interview, Amy was clueless about the lives of her cousins.  She claimed that she was never in their house during homeschooling hours, although homeschooling has been going on for more than 24 years in the Duggar home.  Amy claimed that she didn't know if any of her cousins thought about going to college.  She apparently had no idea that Joseph spent a year in college in Tennessee.

She also claimed that she was offered several recording contracts in Nashville but she turned them all down because they wanted to turn her into a slut.  I don't believe a word of that and, besides, she's already a slut.

Amy is nothing but a reality star wannabe who never will be one.

[Catlyn]

On 1/18/2018 at 8:50 PM, BitterApple said:

there probably are people in their circles who disapprove. However I don't think the church is ready to hold a public flogging, the way the article is making it seem.

The article said it was one anonymous critic, which I can believe. No matter what kind of spiritual fruit is served, there's always the danger of religious nuts.

[Gemma Violet]

1 minute ago, Mollie said:

In that interview, Amy was clueless about the lives of her cousins.  She claimed that she was never in their house during homeschooling hours, although homeschooling has been going on for more than 24 years in the Duggar home.  Amy claimed that she didn't know if any of her cousins thought about going to college.  She apparently had no idea that Joseph spent a year in college in Tennessee.

I think she was just being discreet.  She doesn't want to endure the wrath of Jim Bob.

[GeeGolly]

42 minutes ago, Marshmallow Mollie said:

I have wondered if this isn't why Jessa brings her kids to the TTH so often, or at least one of the reasons. She talks about her childhood with a lot of nostalgia. Offhand, I can't recall another Duggar talking about their childhood as much as Jessa does. I suspect she thinks it's good for her kids to be around a hoard of kids to play with as much as possible - just like she did.

Or Jessa wants to plop herself on her parents couch while her little sisters take care of her kids.

[Westiepeach]

12 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

Or Jessa wants to plop herself on her parents couch while her little sisters take care of her kids.

Bingo!

[madpsych78]

1 hour ago, Marshmallow Mollie said:

I have wondered if this isn't why Jessa brings her kids to the TTH so often, or at least one of the reasons. She talks about her childhood with a lot of nostalgia. Offhand, I can't recall another Duggar talking about their childhood as much as Jessa does. I suspect she thinks it's good for her kids to be around a hoard of kids to play with as much as possible - just like she did.

I can understand this (well, especially Amy's point of view). I grew up an only child, but my mother had a bunch of siblings and so I had a bunch of cousins. Plus, two cousins were the same age as I and a third cousin was only two years younger. I had a lot of really great times with my cousins.

Edited January 20, 2018 by madpsych78

[JoanArc]

4 hours ago, madpsych78 said:

That sounds really funny to me. Like Amy was done talking about the Duggars and wanted to talk about herself and so Kate was like, "Time's up!" LOL

Bye Felecia Amy!

[xwordfanatik]

2 hours ago, Marshmallow Mollie said:

I have wondered if this isn't why Jessa brings her kids to the TTH so often, or at least one of the reasons. She talks about her childhood with a lot of nostalgia. Offhand, I can't recall another Duggar talking about their childhood as much as Jessa does. I suspect she thinks it's good for her kids to be around a hoard of kids to play with as much as possible - just like she did.

It's probably 50/50.  Half because of the playmates, and half because some of the female cousins will assume the taking care of her kids.  To me, Jessa is in the laziness camp along with Ma Kettle.  Jana is a worker bee (as I was in my younger years, although thankfully not with younger sibs, that is way too much responsibility on another kid!).  I always felt the need to be the hardest and best worker at my several jobs spanning 40+ years.)  So Jessa has figured that out, about Jana, and uses her, because she's allowed.  YMMV.

[bigskygirl]

How sweet the Duggars are, and Michelle is a classy woman. Get out the shovels and boots gang because it is getting deep in here.

[lookeyloo]

1 hour ago, xwordfanatik said:

It's probably 50/50.  Half because of the playmates, and half because some of the female cousins will assume the taking care of her kids.  To me, Jessa is in the laziness camp along with Ma Kettle.  Jana is a worker bee (as I was in my younger years, although thankfully not with younger sibs, that is way too much responsibility on another kid!).  I always felt the need to be the hardest and best worker at my several jobs spanning 40+ years.)  So Jessa has figured that out, about Jana, and uses her, because she's allowed.  YMMV.

She is probably bored at her own house.  She doesn't spend any time on chores and she likes the company I think. 

[kalamac]

5 hours ago, Mollie said:

Amy still can't get it through her head that nobody cares about her or Dillon.

In that interview, Amy was clueless about the lives of her cousins.  She claimed that she was never in their house during homeschooling hours, although homeschooling has been going on for more than 24 years in the Duggar home.  Amy claimed that she didn't know if any of her cousins thought about going to college.  She apparently had no idea that Joseph spent a year in college in Tennessee.

She also claimed that she was offered several recording contracts in Nashville but she turned them all down because they wanted to turn her into a slut.  I don't believe a word of that and, besides, she's already a slut.

Amy is nothing but a reality star wannabe who never will be one.

I'm trying to imagine how a discussion of so-called 'slutty' behaviour would even come up in contract negotiations. 

And isn't country music full of Christian-identified singers who don't indulge in outlandish behaviour? If anything, if Amy had any actual marketable talent, they'd be happy that she wouldn't do stuff to tank her career early on, before she'd gotten to the point of being successful enough that fans and labels would forgive her for just about anything.

[Sew Sumi]

Oh Famy. Don't make me remind you of that SLUTTISH (tm JRod) Pretty Woman get up you wore a couple of years ago. You dressed yourself up as a HOOKER! 

[BitterApple]

2 hours ago, lookeyloo said:

She is probably bored at her own house.  She doesn't spend any time on chores and she likes the company I think. 

Yeah, my first thought was she hangs out at the TTH because what the hell else does she have to do all day? It's probably much easier to let the boys play in a 7,000 sq. ft. warehouse than try to keep them entertained and off each other's nerves in the shoebox she currently lives in. 

[queenanne]

4 hours ago, lookeyloo said:

She is probably bored at her own house.  She doesn't spend any time on chores and she likes the company I think. 

Well, learning how to keep her own house clean would be the fastest way out of boredom for grownups with actual shreds of intellect, LOL!  Or maybe Jessa should think about picking up a book once a month or so.  Wasn't she the putative successor to Michelle at the SODRT?  Not actually good advertising there...

Edited January 21, 2018 by queenanne

[Rabbittron]

2 minutes ago, queenanne said:

Well, learning how to keep her own house clean would be the fastest way out of boredom for grownups with actual shreds of intellect, LOL!  Or maybe Jessa should think about picking up a book once a month or so.  Wasn't she the putative successor to Michelle at the SODRT?  Not actually good advertising there...

Maybe Jessa should start reading the book they used to teach reading to kindergarten kids when my mom started kindergarten in 1963 Fun with Dick and Jane. Even though she at age 5 she had a adult library card and not a childs card because according to my grandmother the kids books were way below her reading level.

[GeeGolly]

6 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

Oh Famy. Don't make me remind you of that SLUTTISH (tm JRod) Pretty Woman get up you wore a couple of years ago. You dressed yourself up as a HOOKER! 

Rolling around in mud for an engagement shoot, daisy dukes and a crop top for a spin in the country, breasts popping out of her wedding dress and channeling a hooker. I'm guessing the country music industry wouldn't have asked her to present herself any more 'risque' than these photos.

[lookeyloo]

That first one looks kind of like the cover of a cheap bodice ripper romance novel.  Cheap and tawdry.

[Scarlett45]

5 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

Rolling around in mud for an engagement shoot, daisy dukes and a crop top for a spin in the country, breasts popping out of her wedding dress and channeling a hooker. I'm guessing the country music industry wouldn't have asked her to present herself any more 'risque' than these photos.

I personally don’t have a problem with any of these outfits (was she going to a costume party in the last one? Cosplay?), not my taste but Amy is a young woman and she can wear what she likes. However I don’t care for the attitude that certain attire turns a woman into a “slut”. Isn’t a “slut” someone who’s sexually promiscuous?(depending on how we define promiscuous) 

If we assume Amy isn’t cheating on her husband with various men/women then she cannot be a slut, no matter what the country music industry wants her to wear or what she herself wants to wear. The self rigtehous attitude is awful- only YOU can decide if you are a slut Amy!

[Rabbittron]

I wonder if Jim Blob ran up to the stage at Fammys wedding grabbed the mike and screamed NIKE? Or did one of the girls do it?

Edited January 21, 2018 by Rabbittron
No coffee yet can't spell

[Arwen Evenstar]

2 minutes ago, Rabbittron said:

I wonder if Jim Blob ran up to the stage at Fammys wedding grabbed the mike and screamed NIKE?

IDK, but he probably turned tail and fled with his brood and broodmare once the DJ and the open bar started. Damn heathens!

[Rabbittron]

10 minutes ago, Arwen Evenstar said:

IDK, but he probably turned tail and fled with his brood and broodmare once the DJ and the open bar started. Damn heathens!

In one of the episodes he did say that they left right after the wedding ceremony. 

[Gemma Violet]

InTouch article:

A Former Follower of the Duggars' "Cult" Speaks Out:  "These are Trapped Women"

http://www.intouchweekly.com/posts/duggars-religion-151762

Quote

 

Unsurprisingly, IBLP teaches women to be "keepers of the home" and nothing else.

"Higher education was frowned on because we were created to raise up a Quiverfull of children to be the salt of the earth. Our main objective was to be the helpmeet (translation: servant) of our husbands and have children. Cooking healthful meals, knowing how to sew, being able to decorate cakes, arrange flowers, and change the car oil...all bonuses. EXCEL was more or less a finishing program for young women who were just becoming eligible for marriage.

"My parents did not agree with all of this stuff. They strongly encouraged me to go on to college and complete as many higher degrees as I wanted to. I'm grateful that they saw the benefit of higher education."

 

 

Quote

 

IBLP had a long list of rules that it enforced, from skirt-wearing to victim-blaming.

"I was conditioned to believe anything that anyone in authority told me without question," she said. "Because of that, I internalized all of the teachings and brought them back home with me. So for example, there are a lot of physical requirements with IBLP. The physical requirements weren't enforced to that degree at home (I wore shorts as a kid), but by the time I got home from my time in the training center, I was wearing skirts all of the time because I had been told that I was immodest otherwise, and I didn't want to cause myself to be raped. There is a lot of victim and women-blaming in that cult."

 

Edited January 21, 2018 by Gemma Violet

[BitterApple]

Nothing says klass like your fake knockers spilling out of a wedding dress.

[queenanne]

This interrelated link also explains a lot of the prior queries of fans who don't drink the kool-aid, and fulfills others' desire for an "expose".  Too bad it wasn't picked up and disseminated by mainstream media!

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/theslice/duggars-bill-gothard-iblp

Some choice quotes:

When Dixie Rose, now 44, who worked for IBLP in various capacities from 1988 until 1996, read that Josh Duggar had gotten counseling, “I literally laughed out loud, because I know what counseling is in that environment.” Counselors with secular training “were tainted by the world. They were going to give humanistic psychology answers rather than biblical answers.”

...

Another former follower, Mark*, who worked at IBLP in the 1990s, said he was not surprised by the revelation of sexual abuse within an ATI family, because he had been made aware of many similar instances during his time there.

About the Duggars, he added: “The only surprising thing was that they knew about this and still decided to do a TV show.”

Explains the Duggars' warped punitive reaction to Josh touching his sisters:

A document Gothard sent to ATI families, “Lessons from Moral Failures in a Family,” purports to be a teenage boy’s meditation on his sexual assault of his sisters, which he blames in part on his mother, for allowing his sisters to run naked after a bath and for asking him to change his sisters’ diapers, something that would not have occurred if the family “had only applied Levitical law.”

Explains Anna, to the point where nobody really needs to hear anything about "her own" opinions about not divorcing Josh, TLC:

If they continue to adhere to Gothard’s teachings, it is unlikely the young Duggars would consider divorce. Gothard has written extensively about the grounds for divorce, which in his view is almost always impermissible. As IBLP lays out in detail in Wisdom Booklet No. 26, “To allow for divorce and/or remarriage in the case of marital unfaithfulness” is the same as destroying Christ’s relationship with the Church, and the believer’s relationship with the law.

Answers JimBob's rote cant about "buying a toothbrush" (should've known he couldn't think up anything like this on his own):

Gothard enticed followers with promises that his teachings would lead to great knowledge and achievement. ATI, Gothard has written, “was designed to train up world changers,” the heart of a grandiose vision that many former followers say intrigued them—at first. Gothard actively discouraged his followers from attending public school, college, or even medical school, instead urging them to address medical issues on a “spiritual level.” The Wisdom Booklets are a dizzying application of Gothard’s “principles” to every conceivable discipline—law, medicine, history, linguistics, math, science—all instilling the fundamental belief that one must discern and follow God’s will, not the dictates of the secular world, in every aspect of life, right down to, say, choosing a toothbrush. “As we commit the work of buying a toothbrush to Him,” one Wisdom Book advises, “He has promised to make His will known to us.”

Gives new meaning to what "an encourager" really is (I'm now interpreting it as "sibling hectorer of your other rebellious spawn to fall in line and stop grieving their parents" ):

Even at 24, she had to ask permission to leave the house. At the time, her parents were living in rural Wisconsin and permitted her a short time to ride her bike on a nearby trail. One time, while out, she was sexually assaulted by a friend, also from an ATI family. After consulting with Gothard, her parents decided to send her to headquarters as an “encouragement case,” which she says was code for a person others should avoid as “rebellious.”

“There was never, Joy, what do you want?” said Simmons. “It was always, God wants this… and if you don’t like it, you need to submit and be broken.”

Yet in Discovery and TLC’s hands, the Duggars became the sanitized poster children for this insular, authoritarian, and increasingly discredited religious sect, packaged as innocuous for a mass television audience. And IBLP used the Duggars’ fame to promote its teachings. The Duggars, said Leigh, were Gothard’s “model ATI family,” and were “held up as ideal in the IBLP world.” Though IBLP hasn’t rebounded to its glory days, many recent enrollments were loyal viewers who’d been inspired by the show, according to Leigh, who has discussed the matter with recent staffers at IBLP headquarters. As depicted by TLC, the Duggars were a loving, virtuous family—and their biggest fans wanted to know their secret.

But, what about the non-biologically-related, Mr. Norvell?  Are you trying to gloss over to the fact that a stranger from the church who'd committed the same acts against the Duggar girls, would totally receive the same whole whitewashing treatment in order to blame the girls for being such heathen temptresses?

Robert Norvell, who ran an IBLP training center in Eagle Mountain, Arkansas, for 12 years, said the Duggars had contacted him in 2003 about sending Josh to his facility. Jim Bob “just told me that Josh was having some struggles and just wondered if I could take him for a while,” but he turned them down because his facility was full.

Norvell said he did not know about the sexual abuse until the May 2015 In Touch report. But he dismissed the abuse as insignificant, pointing to Gothard’s teachings. “What you’re hearing about Josh is a stupid thing that a little boy did,” Norvell said. “In the seminar, Bill [Gothard] calls it a natural curiosity. Had it been as traumatic as they make it out to be, the sisters would have been bitter, and the sisters are not bitter. I know the whole family.”

It's a long read (clearly!), but I recommend going through the whole article.

[madpsych78]

Queenanne, I don't think the link is working. It just takes me back to the top of this page.

[DangerousMinds]

Didn't Gothard himself attend college and graduate school? How can the Quiverfull moment change anything in the world if they don't produce educated children?

I wonder if divorce would be permitted if Anna were the one who kept cheating?

[queenanne]

16 minutes ago, madpsych78 said:

Queenanne, I don't think the link is working. It just takes me back to the top of this page.

Sorry, the browser seems to hate this configuration, as evinced by how randomly it just shoved my quotes into a ball... let's try it again:

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/theslice/duggars-bill-gothard-iblp

Edited January 21, 2018 by queenanne

[Churchhoney]

8 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

Rolling around in mud for an engagement shoot, daisy dukes and a crop top for a spin in the country, breasts popping out of her wedding dress and channeling a hooker. I'm guessing the country music industry wouldn't have asked her to present herself any more 'risque' than these photos.

Oh, come now. Think of that slut Carrie Underwood. So much more of a sleazy sexpot than the "rebel Duggar." No wonder Amy feared the porno lengths to which she'd be forced to go. 

Edited January 21, 2018 by Churchhoney