Party of One: Unpopular TV Opinions

[Chaos Theory]

Although I have found a few new shows I enjoy there are far less then usual this year. I guess it happens a slow season. I am in the minority and really am enjoying Scream Queens (the ratings suck), Limitless is ok but too procedural for my taste and I do like Quantico which appeals to my pretty shiny people doing stupid things moments.

[joelene]

Totally forgot about Scream Queens. Although I've already half checked out. I'll watch, but not very attentively. It has its moment, but it also has Emma Roberts and Abigail Breslin.

Edited October 13, 2015 by joelene

[ganesh]

I'm watching more tv now that I can afford a good cable package with a DVR and netflix, hulu. There's hidden stuff all over the place. 

[AgentRXS]

My UO about The Walking Dead: I hate Daryl. HATE him. I find that the character has been pretty much useless the past two seasons, I find his "bad boy" look to be very cliche, and while Norman Reedus seems very sweet IRL, his acting has never impressed me. I feel like more interesting characters were killed off (I'd rather Shane exiled from the group rather than killed----would've been very interesting if Shane had formed a Wolves-like group and come face to face with Rick now that Rick is more Shane-like).It seems like the writers listen to closely to the "If Daryl dies, we riot" sect of the fandom, Daryl  is just meandering around in a show where the character no longer fits. Annoying.

 

I really tried to like Breaking Bad but just couldn't get into it. Same with The Wire. Nothing about either show made me want to come back for more. I wanted to like them, I just don't.

 

I hate the music on Empire and am astonished that people find it to be one of the highlights of the show. It sounds like the same, repetitive sound TImbaland has put out in the last 20 years. I actually LIKE the soapy aspects of it.

 

Which brings me to.....I hate the description of "soapy"  when used as a derogatory term.  There is nothing better than a good soap IMO. I love the drama, twists, turns and fights that a good soap brings to the table. The problem with daytime soaps is that they have grown stale with the same awful writers and EPS jumping from one soap to another. When written correctly, soap should be fun TV watching.  I even loved early seasons of The Real Housewives franchise because they were reality tv soap (they too have grown stale with their scripted formula).

[Minneapple]

Crazy Ex-Girlfriend was hands down the best pilot of the season. Which granted isn't saying a lot. But of course it's the low-rated show that will get the axe after like four episodes.

Edited October 14, 2015 by Minneapple

[DittyDotDot]

Crazy Ex-Girlfriend was hands down the best pilot of the season. Which granted isn't saying a lot. But of course it's the low-rated show that will get the axe after like four episodes.

 

Isn't My Crazy Ex-Girlfriend on the CW? Ratings aren't the only factor for them and they do tend to give shows a bit more time to establish itself...it might make it a full season, at least, Minneapple. 

[Neurochick]

My UO for today is that I don't know or care what a "Mary Sue" is.  I've read that people think Alex in "Quantico" is a Mary Sue.  It seems no one has an issue when a male character can do everything well, but if it's a woman, that's an issue.   I've watched enough TV shows where male characters could multi task, but as soon as a woman does it, there's an issue.  Why?  I really don't get it.  Alex is a Mary Sue, Gabby on "Chicago Fire" is a Mary Sue.  Nope, don't get it at all.  I don't mind seeing a woman who can do many things and is competent.   Why should all female characters be fuck ups?  Is that supposed to make me feel better as a woman to see another woman on TV who's not perfect?  It's TV, it's fantasy, it's okay if a woman can do everything well.

[Crim]

Over the years, I've seen more Mary Sue characters than I can count - male too - but TV shows are not the best environment for them (i.e. they are rare and not so over-the-top, which is why, imo, Alex grated despite not being an egregious example*); genre books and fan fiction is where they thrive. People have different degrees on tolerance for sue-ish traits, but they are like pornography: you know them when you see them... after you've seen a few really shameless Sues, male and/or female.

 

* Quantico as a whole is a heap of stupidity and unbelievable writing. Had I known it would be this bad, Alex would have stood out less: while she is the lead character, she is hardly the centerpiece of the clusterfuck of fails; she is a symptom, not the cause, of the show being awful. The hate for Sue characters comes partly from the fact that the story and writing accommodate their constant amazingness, no matter how implausible they have to get or how much the other characters suffer for it. But on Quantico the story and writing proved laughable in ways that are not related to Alex.

Edited October 14, 2015 by Crim

[Minneapple]

The loosest definition of Mary Sue is "self-insert." I hesitate to use the term but Alex Parrish (the lead character from Quantico) sets the Sue bells ringing. Like, a lot. She's not at Bella Swan levels, but she definitely has some of those factors going.

 

It's really stunning how bad the new crop of broadcast shows is. So I'm really hoping the CW gives My Crazy Ex-Girlfriend a chance. Yeah, the ratings suck even by CW standards. And it's only had a pilot so far, but it was so so good. It's the kind of TV that makes you warm and smiley inside. 

[Bastet]

The loosest definition of Mary Sue is "self-insert."

 

I thought that was the definition of a Mary Sue -- a character who's a wish fulfillment stand-in for the creator/writer, getting to be and do a bunch of cool things.

[ganesh]

Mary Sue has about as much contemporary meaning now as jump the shark in that it typically means "I don't like that character/show, so it's the worst thing ever." I mean, Claire on Outlander even? While I'm on it, ______-porn is just as ridiculous. 

 

Is there a term for people who have the burning need to post about how "I lasted X minutes. I'm out."

[proserpina65]

It seems no one has an issue when a male character can do everything well, but if it's a woman, that's an issue.

 

"Gary Stu" might not be as often remarked upon, but it does come up, particularly in fantasy/sci fi fandoms.

[Chaos Theory]

The loosest definition of Mary Sue is "self-insert." I hesitate to use the term but Alex Parrish (the lead character from Quantico) sets the Sue bells ringing. Like, a lot. She's not at Bella Swan levels, but she definitely has some of those factors going.

But the whole point of Quantico is that Alex is the top of her class. That is why I don't get the Mary Sue label. The show wouldn't work at all if she was just average or barely passing. She has to be top of her class for the show to work. Top of her class student with questionable past might or might not be a terrorist. It doesn't work if she sucks at everything.

Gary Stu's do come up but they are rare as a unicorn and usually just another label for an already hated character. Hell Gary Stu's are fine in tv but being a Mary Sue is the ultimate sin in writing.

Edited October 14, 2015 by Chaos Theory

[ribboninthesky1]

Hmm, I think Gary Stus are rampant in TV.  But they're rarely called that.  I think men are allowed to be flawed in ways that women are not, much like they can be speshul, snowflaky competent, and no one bats an eye. To Bastet's point, I also think TV female characters are often perceived as Mary Sues because most of them are written by men.  I feel like female writers are more apt to let a character breathe and be fully-formed.

 

I couldn't get through the pilot episode of Quantico (ten minutes, and I was out, haha!). Had nothing to do with Alex.  But the Jane Doe character from Blindspot is a recent example of this for me.

[Julia]

I thought that was the definition of a Mary Sue -- a character who's a wish fulfillment stand-in for the creator/writer, getting to be and do a bunch of cool things.

"Gary Stu" might not be as often remarked upon, but it does come up, particularly in fantasy/sci fi fandoms.

Hmm, I think Gary Stus are rampant in TV.  But they're rarely called that.  I think men are allowed to be flawed in ways that women are not, much like they can be speshul, snowflaky competent, and no one bats an eye. To Bastet's point, I also think TV female characters are often perceived as Mary Sues because most of them are written by men.  I feel like female writers are more apt to let a character breathe and be fully-formed.

I don't think of those characters as Sues - as above, I think they're more a way for writers to create their dream girl for the character they identify with - but using the definition "woman who has an impossible number of improbable virtues, and everyone loves her anyway" they're creator's pets on an absolutely creepy number of shows.

[Minneapple]

But the whole point of Quantico is that Alex is the top of her class. That is why I don't get the Mary Sue abel. The show wouldn't work at all if she was just average or barely passing. She has to be top of her class for the show to work. Top of her class student with questionable past might or might not be a terrorist. It doesn't work if she sucks at everything.

 

That's why I said the definition of Mary Sue is "self-insert." It's a wish fulfillment fantasy. That doesn't necessarily mean someone who's good at everything. Plenty of TV characters have been good at lots of things without being slapped with the Mary Sue label -- Veronica Mars comes to mind. Like Crim said, it's akin to porn -- you know what it is when you see it, and Alex Parrish rings a LOT of Sue bells for me. She's top of her class...AND everyone likes her...AND people go on about how great she is...AND she has a tragic mysterious background...and so on.

 

For Gary Stus, the one that comes to mind right now is Gibbs from NCIS. But I haven't watched NCIS for years so maybe they toned him down a bit.

Edited October 14, 2015 by Minneapple

[Julia]

For Gary Stus, the one that comes to mind right now is Gibbs from NCIS. But I haven't watched NCIS for years so maybe they toned him down a bit.

My current archetypical Stu is Sam Hanna on NCIS LA. For Sues, it's really hard to beat Jennifer Keller on Stargate: Atlantis, but I think Root is easily the frontrunner for shows which are (barely) on the air.

[Chaos Theory]

For Gary Stus, the one that comes to mind right now is Gibbs from NCIS. But I haven't watched NCIS for years so maybe they toned him down a bit.

 

And NCIS is one of the most popular and watched shows on television today.  Hardly anyone complains about Gibbs being too perfect as a matter of fact most people think Gibbs is the awesomist awesome who ever did awesome.    Which happens to be the way a vast number of Gary Stus are seen.  Mary Sues are complained about non stop and called special snowflakes and there are web pages set up for the sole purpose to hate on them.  

Edited October 14, 2015 by Chaos Theory

[Misslindsey]

 

Speaking of Jane the Virgin, I know critics are basically fawning over it, but I have watched three episodes of it and I don't see what's supposed to be so special about it. I liked the Latin family aspects of it (not as good as on Ugly Betty though), but it is not funny and the narrator is incredibly annoying. I really couldn't warm up to it.

This. I gave it a try because it was getting raves from critics. I do think Gina Rodriguez is absolutely charming on the show and in interviews I have seen her do, but I lost interest halfway through the first season. The acting was fine, I just did not warm up to the story, which I thought I would because I enjoyed Ugly Betty.

 

 

For Sues, it's really hard to beat Jennifer Keller on Stargate: Atlantis, but I think Root is easily the frontrunner for shows which are (barely) on the air.

Hee! I always thought Lana Lang from Smallville was at the top of the Mary Sue list. I would add Kurt from Glee as a Stu.

[Minneapple]

And NCIS is one of the most popular and watched shows on television today.  Hardly anyone complains about Gibbs being too perfect as a matter of fact most people think Gibbs is the awesomist awesome who ever did awesome.    Which happens to be the way a vast number of Gary Stus are seen.  Mary Sues are complained about non stop and called special snowflakes and there are web pages set up for the sole purpose to hate on them.  

Hey, I agree. I'm just saying that in this particular case of Alex Parrish on Quantico, I think she's a Mary Sue or has a lot of Sue-esque traits. And this is coming from someone who's really hesitant to use that label.

[GreekGeek]

I called Jamal on "Empire" a Gary Stu last season. A good-looking, brilliantly talented gay guy who can run a big company and can kick ass? Sounds like an idealized image of his creator. That's why I'm enjoying seeing him turn evil this season, although I don't think he'll top his dad I that respect.

[proserpina65]

And NCIS is one of the most popular and watched shows on television today.  Hardly anyone complains about Gibbs being too perfect as a matter of fact most people think Gibbs is the awesomist awesome who ever did awesome.    Which happens to be the way a vast number of Gary Stus are seen.  Mary Sues are complained about non stop and called special snowflakes and there are web pages set up for the sole purpose to hate on them.  

I've seen plenty of complaints about Gibbs being too perfect, just as much as most of the alleged Mary Sues.

[kathyk24]

I think Reid is a male Mary Sue. He's a genius with a photographic memory. He has a mentally ill mother and an absent father.Everybody on the team loves him and the audience complains if any other character gets screen time. I find Reid so boring.

[mansonlamps]

Reid hero worship is the main reason I can't bring myself to read the Criminal Minds message boards any more. I find his character so very dull and unappealing, but that clearly is an unpopular opinion and I feel like there must be something wrong with me for not falling under this character's spell. I do still watch the show sometimes though it is no longer appointment TV.

[Chaos Theory]

So what the definition of Mary Sue is a passably good looking person with a couple of friends who is good at their job? Hey I'm a Mary Sue guys!

[Constantinople]

I don't dislike Maura Tierney, but she's not the bee's knees either.

[amensisterfriend]

Just my opinion (obviously!), but I think of a Mary/Marty Sue as someone who's depicted as being improbably perfect and universally adored. When I use the term---which I'll totally admit many of us are too quick to apply---I'm not referring to someone who's competent, intelligent and generally well-liked with demonstrable strengths and virtues.  I'm talking about someone who's at the ridiculously extreme end of that spectrum: possessing seemingly EVERY strength and talent known to man, fawned over by pretty much everyone, and seemingly devoid of human flaws. Angel's Fred Burkle always leaps to mind when I hear the term, but that may be partly because I'm semi-allergic to Amy Acker :) 

 

And if people can name more Mary Sues than Marty Stus, for me that's not a reflection of audience-wide sexism, but writers conflating 'strong female characters' with 'characters who are not allowed to have any discernible flaws.' It can be an admittedly thin line, and there are people ready to hurl a ton of criticism at any flawed female character who crosses their screen, so I can see why writers fall into this trap...but, for me, it makes for really boring, unrelatable characters.   

 

And, even as a Reid fan, rest assured that I TOTALLY get why the weirdly excessive worship of him, instinct to 'defend' him constantly even when he's not being attacked in the first place and the literal monitoring of how many minutes of screentime he gets per episode is a major turn off. It's even turned ME off, and I've liked him from the first episode :) 

Edited October 16, 2015 by amensisterfriend

[Neurochick]

And NCIS is one of the most popular and watched shows on television today.  Hardly anyone complains about Gibbs being too perfect as a matter of fact most people think Gibbs is the awesomist awesome who ever did awesome.    Which happens to be the way a vast number of Gary Stus are seen.  Mary Sues are complained about non stop and called special snowflakes and there are web pages set up for the sole purpose to hate on them.  

 

I agree with this.  It seems an issue if a female character has these traits.  Maybe it's as a poster upthread stated, these characters are mostly written by men and they could be consciously or unconsciously writing qualities they want in a woman.  I wonder if a lot of writers do that, both male and female and if there are "Gary Sue's" around, why don't they get as much flack as the Mary Sue's?

[Gudzilla]

I hope I don't offend with this, but but I find the Mary/Gary Sue complaints to be gender related*. Women complain about Mary's, men complain about Gary's. There just seems to be a lot more women posting. 

 

I am not a crackpot........... but I might be.  ;)

 

 

 

* pure guesswork going by screen names/avatars/etc

Edited October 16, 2015 by Gudzilla

[meep.meep]

I don't dislike Maura Tierney, but she's not the bee's knees either.

Me too.

 

I'd like her better if she could play a part where she had to look happy all the time.  She's like the biggest Debbie Downer who ever Debbie downed.

[walnutqueen]

My nomination for the Gary Stu award is RustySue on Major Crimes.  Can. not. stand. him.

[Julia]

Just my opinion (obviously!), but I think of a Mary/Marty Sue as someone who's depicted as being improbably perfect and universally adored. When I use the term---which I'll totally admit many of us are too quick to apply---I'm not referring to someone who's competent, intelligent and generally well-liked with demonstrable strengths and virtues.  I'm talking about someone who's at the ridiculously extreme end of that spectrum: possessing seemingly EVERY strength and talent known to man, fawned over by pretty much everyone, and seemingly devoid of human flaws. Angel's Fred Burkle always leaps to mind when I hear the term, but that may be partly because I'm semi-allergic to Amy Acker :) 

 

And if people can name more Mary Sues than Marty Stus, for me that's not a reflection of audience-wide sexism, but writers conflating 'strong female characters' with 'characters who are not allowed to have any discernible flaws.' It can be an admittedly thin line, and there are people ready to hurl a ton of criticism at any flawed female character who crosses their screen, so I can see why writers fall into this trap...but, for me, it makes for really boring, unrelatable characters.   

 

I just wanted to see that again.

[ribboninthesky1]

I hope I don't offend with this, but but I find the Mary/Gary Sue complaints to be gender related*. Women complain about Mary's, men complain about Gary's. There just seems to be a lot more women posting. 

 

I am not a crackpot........... but I might be.  ;)

 

 

 

* pure guesswork going by screen names/avatars/etc

 

I don't think you're a crackpot - I used to have a similar POV.  Agreed that women are more prevalent and expressive in certain TV fandoms.  However, in my experience, I rarely see (presumably) men calling out male characters as Gary Stus. They may or may not like a character, but I haven't seen a lot of acknowledgement that a male character is wish fulfillment/male fantasy.   

[Ambrosefolly]

I think male's interest in television has been some waning over the last few years, especially with the growth of gaming. However, you all obviously haven't spent much time in the manosphere (contrary to popular belief, is quite diverse), but they don't rank men as Gary Sues, but on the Alpha/Sigma, Beta, Delta, Omega scales. Any male character that is answering wish fulfillment is an alpha/sigma (believe it or not, they absolutely love Malcolm Reynolds from Firefly), any guy that is the equivalent of the "Mary Sue" isn't called "Gary" but a "white knight" and considered a delta, who they absolutely despise.  

 

A lot of these Mary Sues I now believe aren't really perfect in every way, even within the show, but usually are thinly drawn character. I think show runners that aren't very strong come up with these blank slate "good girls" whose only function is "being good" or worse some sort of prize for the guy to obtain and not a real person in her own right.

[mansonlamps]

I think male's interest in television has been some waning over the last few years, especially with the growth of gaming.

I agree with this, but unfortunately their interest in running networks and studios, writing and acting have not waned so now we have men running things for a largely female audience and making most of the money: quelle surprise. Art imitates life. It's hilarious in my extremely male dominated industry that any time a female gets promoted (way, WAY more than if a minority male does believe it or not) the largely white, male population gets in a frenzy about unfairness to their demographic's chance for upward mobility. Yet if you look at any executive level corporate chart it's going to be at least 80+ percent white guy, poor babies!

[applecrisp]

I always thought Rory on Gilmore Girls was the ultimate perfect person.   It made me stop watching. I just thought the actress wasn't that good.  I feel the same about Rob Lowe just not a good actor.

[ByTor]

Isn't My Crazy Ex-Girlfriend on the CW? Ratings aren't the only factor for them and they do tend to give shows a bit more time to establish itself...it might make it a full season, at least, Minneapple.

They were awfully quick, though, to cancel Cult. The UO part of my post...I liked Cult and was sad to see it go!

[Wings]

I don't find Tracy Morgan witty or enjoyable at all, never did.  

[kiddo82]

Related to last night's Dancing with the Stars, Britney Spears's 2000 VMA routine (satisfaction/Oops I did it again with the sparkly, nude toned outfit) was way more provocative and memorable than her 2001 routine (Slave 4 You with the snake). Admittedly, I'm not sure you can turn the former into a dance for a network show, even in the 9:00 hour, but that's not the first time I've felt the general consensus is that 2001 is more notoriously remembered than 2000. I mean, for goodness sake, one second the woman had clothes on and the next she practically didn't. (Or as one pundit put it, "Wham. Bam. Nothing but glitter.") By the time she danced half naked with the snake a year later it felt very "Been there. Done that."

Edited October 20, 2015 by kiddo82

[UYI]

Related to last night's Dancing with the Stars, Britney Spears's 2000 VMA routine (satisfaction/Oops I did it again with the sparkly, nude toned outfit) was way more provocative and memorable than her 2001 routine (Slave 4 You with the snake). Admittedly, I'm not sure you can turn the former into a dance for a network show, even in the 9:00 hour, but that's not the first time I've felt the general consensus is that 2001 is more notoriously remembered than 2000. I mean, for goodness sake, one second the woman had clothes on and the next she practically didn't. (Or as one pundit put it, "Wham. Bam. Nothing but glitter.") By the time she danced half naked with the snake a year later it felt very "Been there. Done that."

 

It's sad that I remember this, but that "Wham. Bam." quote was from none other than Beverley Mitchell, Lucy from 7th Heaven, during E!'s 100 Most Shocking Moments In Entertainment countdown from 2003. I watched those countdowns a LOT when I was in high school.

 

Is it a UO that I miss those? Because if so, I really do. The Celebrity Oops! countdowns were the BEST.

Edited October 20, 2015 by UYI

[kiddo82]

It's sad that I remember this, but that "Wham. Bam." quote was from none other than Beverley Mitchell, Lucy from 7th Heaven, during E!'s 100 Most Shocking Moments In Entertainment countdown from 2003.

Haha! Was it? I always remembered the quote (or its reasonable facsimile) from some countdown but not that it was from her.

Edited October 21, 2015 by kiddo82

[laffytaffy997]

I absolutely adored those countdown shows when I was in middle school/high school too. The ones on VH1 were even better. My favorite one was the 100 Greatest Rock & Roll Moments on TV and 50 Most Awesomely Bad Songs. The "I Love the..." series was awesome too. I'm pretty sure a majority of my pop culture knowledge (which is a lot) comes from watching these specials.

[spaceytraci1208]

I absolutely adored those countdown shows when I was in middle school/high school too. The ones on VH1 were even better. My favorite one was the 100 Greatest Rock & Roll Moments on TV and 50 Most Awesomely Bad Songs. The "I Love the..." series was awesome too. I'm pretty sure a majority of my pop culture knowledge (which is a lot) comes from watching these specials.

Sheeeeeeeit, I love a good countdown show now, in my 30's lol. My favorite was the 25 Lame countdown on MTV hosted by Denis Leary, Jeanine Garafalo, Chris Kattan and a pre-Daily Show Jon Stewart. They counted down the 25 worst videos ever aired on MTV; not sure how they made the determination, but I wasn't mad at it. The best moment was when Vanilla Ice joined them for "Ice Ice Baby" and they let him destroy the video. He went a bit off-script and started hitting random stuff in the studio with a bat. Chris Kattan screaming "No, Vanilla!" while he was on his "rampage" still makes me chuckle. Edited October 22, 2015 by spaceytraci1208

[ribboninthesky1]

If I don't believe the lead(s) in a show can act, I won't continue to watch a show.  Makes no sense to me to torture oneself with perceived bad performances. It's one thing if a supporting actor is a weak link, but the leads are pretty much guaranteed most of the screen time.  If they're THAT bad, it's time for me to move on. 

 

ETA:

Thinking on it further, that goes for the writing as well.  

Edited October 22, 2015 by ribboninthesky1

[ganesh]

They counted down the 25 worst videos ever aired on MTV; not sure how they made the determination, but I wasn't mad at it. The best moment was when Vanilla Ice joined them for "Ice Ice Baby" and they let him destroy the video.

 

IIRC, the worst videos were also the last time they ever aired on mtv. They were actually destroying all of them, but let Ice do his. 

[Misslindsey]

I like Haley and Andy on Modern Family. I do like Dylan, but mostly in very small doses. I would prefer Haley to end up with someone smarter than Dylan. It does not have to be Andy, but just someone.

[applecrisp]

I stopped watching Once Upon a Time.  It has gotten increasingly far fetched for awhile now.  The way they butcher so many fairy tales was okay with me.  Camelot was the last straw and evil King Arthur.  That was my limit.  I am sad about it because it is one less show to enjoy and this has not been a promising season.

 

The thing is I like all the various versions of the Camelot tale, especially the one with Clive Owen and Kiera Knightly.  I find the one on OUaT to be confusing and cheesy and stupid.

[Demented Daisy]

I am sick of the good guys "embracing the darkness" or whatever.  If the character is morally ambiguous from the start, fine.  But I am so damn tired of the heroes going bad or evil or whatever.

[ganesh]

I liked the Clive Owen King Arthur version. The versions that lean more to the original Welsh tales are more interesting to me anyway. The romantic tales are like, blech.

[FormerMod-a1]

I am enjoying Heroes Reborn.  I also like all of the first Heroes, yes all seasons.