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Party of One: Unpopular TV Opinions

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I don't really care that much about the ending, but it reads to me like Chase got a little too full of himself and 'arty' or whatever. 

What I did like, and agree with is the figurative sword over Tony's head every second of every day, so he can't even just relax and get onion rings with his family. It really underscored Tony as a tragic figure, and you can see why he'd have all this anxiety. But he knows this and still goes out for onion rings. 

They just as easily could have ended with Meadow sitting down and Tony pushing the basket over to her. Because people would say, 'that's it? They just ate onion rings?' That's the point. 

I do agree with Chase that viewers screeching for Tony to be whacked says more about them than the show. 

I do recommend The Sopranos Sessions by two journalists from the local newspaper shown on the show. They covered the show in the paper irl during its run. They have an extensive interview with Chase about the ending. 

 

Edited by DoctorAtomic
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On 5/15/2021 at 9:47 PM, Wiendish Fitch said:

Agreed. I really don't get the fuss over Andrew Scott.

He was quite good in the movie Pride, but otherwise, meh at best, terrible at worst.  And not the least bit hot despite what Fleabag tried to tell me.

On 5/15/2021 at 8:00 PM, Mabinogia said:

I did love BBC's Sherlock

I didn't love it but did enjoy it at first.  The second season, not so much other than Watson's wedding.  (Or was that the third season, I forget.)  But after that, no way.

On 5/16/2021 at 1:45 PM, Mabinogia said:

The Downey Jr movies?

The first one was enjoyable.  The second one, not.  But Young Sherlock Holmes was fantastic; I didn't care one bit that it didn't follow the canon faithfully.  The only remaining good thing about the BBC Sherlock is Rupert Graves as Lestrade.  The only thing I ever liked about Elementary was Sean Pertwee's Lestrade.  (Hmmm, maybe I just like hot men playing Lestrade?)

2 hours ago, ifionlyknew said:

I didn't like it when it first aired. I like millions of other people thought my cable went out.  But upon further reflection I like it.  Life goes on. Or doesn't.  We are left to decide for ourselves what happened.

I never watched The Sopranos, so I didn't actually see the finale.  But I like the idea of the ending for precisely this reason.

The ending of Lost sucked - not an unpopular opinion, I know - but the final shot of Jack and the dog was terrific.

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32 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

do recommend The Sopranos Sessions by two journalists from the local newspaper shown on the show. They covered the show in the paper irl during its run. They have an extensive interview with Chase about the ending. 

I will check that out. I have read The Future Will Be Televised also by Alan Sepinwall, in the chapter about The Sopranos he outlines why he doesn't think Tony was killed at the end and brings up a bunch of logical points. The big one is how it wasn't really a show about shocking mysterious twists out of no where, so it wouldn't make sense to pull that at the end.

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52 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

The ending of Lost sucked - not an unpopular opinion, I know - but the final shot of Jack and the dog was terrific.

I give them credit for that, but otherwise, the only reason I enjoyed the end is because TPTB basically copped to the "GRAND PLAN" narrative that was so very obviously false from the jump. All the actors were quite good on the whole. The show certainly had some WOW moments. They pulled of the "We have to go back!" brilliantly. 

36 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

I will check that out. I have read The Future Will Be Televised also by Alan Sepinwall, in the chapter about The Sopranos he outlines why he doesn't think Tony was killed at the end and brings up a bunch of logical points. The big one is how it wasn't really a show about shocking mysterious twists out of no where, so it wouldn't make sense to pull that at the end.

He's one of the authors. I just checked. 

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Ahhh...The Sopranos. Never watched it. Never will. Don't care. Just another show about an unattractive white dude in mid-life crisis. So the ending? Couldn't even tell you what it was. When people talked about it, I just tuned out and went to my internal happy place. 

Another likely unpopular opinion, Jon killing Dany was the obvious and right ending for her character. 

 

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1 hour ago, BlackberryJam said:

Another likely unpopular opinion, Jon killing Dany was the obvious and right ending for her character. 

I'm with you on that one.  And my opinion that her descent into Targaryen madness was telegraphed from late season 1/early season 2 is probably also unpopular.  But to me it's clear that she's headed that way from at least the gates of Qarth, if not sooner.

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Just now, proserpina65 said:

I'm with you on that one.  And my opinion that her descent into Targaryen madness was telegraphed from late season 1/early season 2 is probably also unpopular.  But to me it's clear that she's headed that way from at least the gates of Qarth, if not sooner.

Definitely. I found myself just looking at people who were predicting incestuous marriage to her nephew as a love story and that they would rule together wisely and justly. It was like, "Oh, honey, no..." 

Then again, I thought Jaime was telegraphed for more than death by brick, so what do I know?

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“Just another show about an unattractive white dude”

Many of us in the bear community would disagree with you...especially bearded circa The Mexican. Yum...

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39 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

Then again, I thought Jaime was telegraphed for more than death by brick, so what do I know?

I was so hoping we'd get him killing Cersei on purpose, not accidentally by dragging her down to the cellars.

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2 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

Ahhh...The Sopranos. Never watched it. Never will. Don't care. Just another show about an unattractive white dude in mid-life crisis. So the ending? Couldn't even tell you what it was. When people talked about it, I just tuned out and went to my internal happy place. 

Another likely unpopular opinion, Jon killing Dany was the obvious and right ending for her character. 

 

I agree with you on The Sopranos, and I will say I don't even really know how that show ended, other than it being some big anticlimax that pissed people off. I watched maybe a dozen episodes and realised I just didn't care about a bunch of old gangsters, living seedy lives and whining about how tough it was.

Regarding Game of Thrones, most of the problems arise from the showrunners rushing to a conclusion without adequately building the narrative. I don't doubt that GRRM's ending for the series (which will never see print) was to have Jon kill Dany and Bran to end up as king. There are lots of hints in the books that suggest this. But the actual execution of it on the show was appallingly bad and required all the characters to make incredible jumps of logic and judgement.

Having said that, I sketched out how I would have ended Game of Thrones and it would have gone the other way - Dany kills Jon with his tacit permission, because it's the only way to stop the Night King. Then she flies off east on Drogon, never to be seen again.

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43 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

I'm with you on that one.  And my opinion that her descent into Targaryen madness was telegraphed from late season 1/early season 2 is probably also unpopular.  But to me it's clear that she's headed that way from at least the gates of Qarth, if not sooner.

Agree on this. I didn’t think the writing was unfair or unjust for her in the final season. It was shown from early episodes that It was always Dhanys way or the high way. As above it all as she thought she was, her way wasn’t much different to all the other dictators who wanted to claim or had claimed the throne.

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Is this unpopular?: I never watched The Sopranos, because I hate everything that tries to portray mobsters with even a little bit of sympathy. Yes, that also includes The Godfather.

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2 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

I just didn't care about a bunch of old gangsters, living seedy lives and whining about how tough it was.

I've never seen "The Sopranos", save for the occasional clip when it's being discussed on TV somewhere, but this is pretty much the reason I've never had much interest, either. I just can't get into mob stories in general. Even stories about real life mobsters aren't interesting to me. 

I have heard about how that show ends, though, and I can see where people would both like the ending and find it annoying as hell. 

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I always felt the Sopranos ending was done the way it was on purpose, so people would talk about it when it ended, and keep debating it years later. Much like the ending of Inception.

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4 minutes ago, JustHereForFood said:

Is this unpopular?: I never watched The Sopranos, because I hate everything that tries to portray mobsters with even a little bit of sympathy. Yes, that also includes The Godfather.

 

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7 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

That is sort of where I am. I always figured that the ambiguous ending was like an insurance policy for David Chase. Like if he ever needs more money he just revives the show and tells more stories about Tony Soprano. If he doesn't need money he is happy with people assuming Tony is dead. Except now James Gandolfini is dead so his insurance policy is the Sopranos prequel movie.

I think that's exactly what he did and what happened.  He and others can talk all they want about how it's clear and the clues are there if you read them, as I've heard many times.  Bullshit.  He left it vague so they could bring back the show later if he chose to do so.  

But then james dies so in my mind, tiny died at the end of the sopranos.  The actors death ended it, killing off tony.  

And I'm a huge sopranos fan. One of my favorite dramas ever probably #2 to breaking bad.  But that ending was a vague open ended sell out. 

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7 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

The only thing I ever liked about Elementary was Sean Pertwee's Lestrade.  (Hmmm, maybe I just like hot men playing Lestrade?)

This is the version of Sherlock I like the least. I couldn't get through one episode. I can't say it was bad, it just didn't click for me. None of the characters felt like the characters they were supposed to be, like they were only Sherlock, Watson et all in name only. 

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My UO is that I won’t watch Lucy Liu because I think she is a terrible actress who must have incriminating photos in a safe somewhere.

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I don't know how unpopular this is  but my favorite Sherlock Holmes TV adaptation is the old series with Jeremy Brett. At least until he got ill and the show's writing became terribly overwrought. Around the fourth season, I think. 

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50 minutes ago, supposebly said:

I don't know how unpopular this is  but my favorite Sherlock Holmes TV adaptation is the old series with Jeremy Brett. At least until he got ill and the show's writing became terribly overwrought. Around the fourth season, I think. 

Brett is my favorite Holmes. Dude was so damned elegant, and what a gorgeous speaking voice!

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5 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

I'm with you on that one.  And my opinion that her descent into Targaryen madness was telegraphed from late season 1/early season 2 is probably also unpopular.  But to me it's clear that she's headed that way from at least the gates of Qarth, if not sooner.

Yep. I saw it in season 2 when she was in Qarth. I distinctly remember having a conversation with my classmates before a class after season 3 aired, and almost everyone was saying Dany was their favorite character. And I was like "Really? I think she's a tyrant and a psycho in the making." 

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2 hours ago, Crs97 said:

My UO is that I won’t watch Lucy Liu because I think she is a terrible actress who must have incriminating photos in a safe somewhere.

I don't think she's necessarily a consistently terrible actress. But she's mediocre at best, and even adapting for gender and time period, she was playing a person named Watson with only two points of resemblance to the original: being named Watson and having a vague connection to medicine (which the show didn't even maintain). 

At least Jonny Lee Miller had a good dozen vaguely connective traits to the original of his character. Lucy?  Not so much. 

Edited by Kromm
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8 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

But to me it's clear that she's headed that way from at least the gates of Qarth, if not sooner

I thought it was when she faked giving up the baby dragon and then said, oh I also know high Valarian. You're done. 

You basically detonated a nuke and got away with it. There's no descalation from that. When you own all the nukes. And they are all multiuse. 

 

I don't think the Sopranos as a show was making the characters out to be sympathetic. Chase was always subversive in what he was doing. It's not comparable to the Godfather. It's undermining that. 

 

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Ok I gotta rant about how "stan" culture is infecting sports. Sports obviously breeds passionate fans, and that's fine. And certain superstars will have big followings. Also fine. What I'm getting annoyed about is how certain fanbases have a hard time separating "competition" from "narrative." I've noticed that many sports fanbases are using words like "villain," "hero," and "storyline" more and more and it's annoying.

No. The job of any sports team (or athlete) is to win. Short of gambling on games, purposely injuring competitors, committing felonies off the field, and taking illegal PED's, everything is fair. "Winning" =/= "villain" or "bitch" or "p___sy." 

I don't know whether sports fandom has always been like this or social media has become especially toxic, but my god, get a grip. An athlete is not a bad person because he wants to win.

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Well, there is a “stan” thread now...

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8 hours ago, Zella said:

Yep. I saw it in season 2 when she was in Qarth. I distinctly remember having a conversation with my classmates before a class after season 3 aired, and almost everyone was saying Dany was their favorite character. And I was like "Really? I think she's a tyrant and a psycho in the making." 

I think a lot of the trouble was that the show always portrayed Dany as a heroic, messianic figure even when she was committing terrible atrocities, and TV viewers are a bit too used to following those cues in order to understand which characters to root for and which to root against, instead of exercising their own judgement. Maybe the trouble was that she was always isolated from most of the rest of the cast, off being the protagonist of her own story, whereas a character like Cersei, for example, always had other, more central lead characters to play off against, so that her villainy was much clearer from the start because we weren't following her as a central protagonist and her story was therefore more straightforward.

Dany's story arc is really rich and complex, but the portrayal of it was flawed, imo, and let down by the weakness of the writing in later seasons especially.

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12 hours ago, Zella said:

Yep. I saw it in season 2 when she was in Qarth. I distinctly remember having a conversation with my classmates before a class after season 3 aired, and almost everyone was saying Dany was their favorite character. And I was like "Really? I think she's a tyrant and a psycho in the making." 

I saw a lot of people gushing over Dany because of dragons. “Hey did you see those cute baby dragons?” “Hey look badass Dany burned the evil guy with her dragon” “ Oh no poor baby dragons need their mom!” “ Hey look badass Dany riding a dragon” “ Oh no poor Dany has to chain up her babies!”. And that was Danny’s entire thing. 
 

This show made me dislike dragons. Undid all the goodwill HTTYD series earned for them. 

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While we’re on GOT, lannisters were easily my favourite family in the show. Watched it all just for them. They might not be the “good” guys, but they were the most interesting ones in the entire show. I could zone out on starks, targs and Baratheons but never on Lannisters. I am really bummed that they’re making a show on the inbred family now. Give me show about life of Tywin Lannister instead.

 

I’ve never read the books, but I thought Tyrion’s intelligence was way too overhyped in the show. He spent entire season 2 trying to not make ned’s mistakes. Spent entire 3rd season following Tywin’s orders and 4th in prison. He didn’t actually have a lot of experience with politics and war that we saw on the show. How did people expect him to be the smartest hand for Dany who makes no mistakes ever is just confusing to me. So what am I missing?

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19 minutes ago, JimmyJabloon said:

While we’re on GOT, lannisters were easily my favourite family in the show. Watched it all just for them. They might not be the “good” guys, but they were the most interesting ones in the entire show. I could zone out on starks, targs and Baratheons but never on Lannisters. I am really bummed that they’re making a show on the inbred family now. Give me show about life of Tywin Lannister instead.

 

I’ve never read the books, but I thought Tyrion’s intelligence was way too overhyped in the show. He spent entire season 2 trying to not make ned’s mistakes. Spent entire 3rd season following Tywin’s orders and 4th in prison. He didn’t actually have a lot of experience with politics and war that we saw on the show. How did people expect him to be the smartest hand for Dany who makes no mistakes ever is just confusing to me. So what am I missing?

I think it goes back to something he told cersei once.   She remarks that he is not half as smart as he thinks he is and he replies 'yes but that still makes me smarter than you'.  That pretty well suns up his intelligence.  He is smart, but he has the lannister hubris of thinking he is smarter than everyone when that isn't really true.  But even so, he at least tried to pay some political and intellectual savy in his decisions, which was more than you could say for almost anyone else on the show.  

Except probably his dad.  Tywin was a cruel butthole but he was smart and politically adept.  Ironically while they hated each other, tywin and tyrion were the two in their family most alike.  

 

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1 hour ago, JimmyJabloon said:

While we’re on GOT, lannisters were easily my favourite family in the show. Watched it all just for them. They might not be the “good” guys, but they were the most interesting ones in the entire show. I could zone out on starks, targs and Baratheons but never on Lannisters. I am really bummed that they’re making a show on the inbred family now. Give me show about life of Tywin Lannister instead.

 

I’ve never read the books, but I thought Tyrion’s intelligence was way too overhyped in the show. He spent entire season 2 trying to not make ned’s mistakes. Spent entire 3rd season following Tywin’s orders and 4th in prison. He didn’t actually have a lot of experience with politics and war that we saw on the show. How did people expect him to be the smartest hand for Dany who makes no mistakes ever is just confusing to me. So what am I missing?

Someone who was a big GOT nerd said the reason we like the Lannisters is because they're oddly people of their word. There's something admirable about people who say they;re going to do something and then follow through. 

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1 hour ago, JimmyJabloon said:

While we’re on GOT, lannisters were easily my favourite family in the show. Watched it all just for them. They might not be the “good” guys, but they were the most interesting ones in the entire show. I could zone out on starks, targs and Baratheons but never on Lannisters. I am really bummed that they’re making a show on the inbred family now. Give me show about life of Tywin Lannister instead.

 

I’ve never read the books, but I thought Tyrion’s intelligence was way too overhyped in the show. He spent entire season 2 trying to not make ned’s mistakes. Spent entire 3rd season following Tywin’s orders and 4th in prison. He didn’t actually have a lot of experience with politics and war that we saw on the show. How did people expect him to be the smartest hand for Dany who makes no mistakes ever is just confusing to me. So what am I missing?

Tywin's skill and brains is definitely a book thing and wasn't in the show.

I also loved the Lannisters and hated the Starks. The Starks were the Ingalls of Westeros.

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Just now, BlackberryJam said:

Tywin's skill and brains is definitely a book thing and wasn't in the show.

I also loved the Lannisters and hated the Starks. The Starks were the Ingalls of Westeros.

I love the Ingalls family. More in the books than in the tv show.

Why is it when a "villain" does something shitty like blow up a church with a bunch of innocent people to get power back, they are viewed as accomplishing something, but god forbid that Sansa feeds her rapist to a pack of hungry dogs or Arya poisons her family's murderers. Can't "stoop to their level." Occasionally, you need to, especially people like the Boltons or Lannisters who are notorious for not keeping their word or appreciative when people save their lives. 

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2 minutes ago, Ambrosefolly said:

I love the Ingalls family. More in the books than in the tv show.

Why is it when a "villain" does something shitty like blow up a church with a bunch of innocent people to get power back, they are viewed as accomplishing something, but god forbid that Sansa feeds her rapist to a pack of hungry dogs or Arya poisons her family's murderers. Can't "stoop to their level." Occasionally, you need to, especially people like the Boltons or Lannisters who are notorious for not keeping their word or appreciative when people save their lives. 

Oh......don't get me started on the starks and their stupidity.  

Ned especially.  Deserved to die based on his actions and naivety.  

Plus if he had followed through and just killed the 'queen of dragons' way back in season one like robert told him too, she never burns down kings landing.  Sure we lose her story, but kings landing may still (fictionally) exist.  Idiot.  Those plays of him running around like a dimwitted don't weren't far off

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1 hour ago, JimmyJabloon said:

While we’re on GOT, lannisters were easily my favourite family in the show.

Oh God mine too! I found Tyrion pretty overrated, to be honest, but I enjoyed the shit out of the rest of the family. They were awful, but they were also relentlessly entertaining. 

I didn't care for Ramsay Bolton, but I loved watching Roose too. I would have watched a whole show that was basically him just being a dick to people at dinner. LOL You never know what you're going to get when you eat with Roose. A knife in the back or just some thinly veiled insults? Stay tuned! 

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2 minutes ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

Ned especially.  Deserved to die based on his actions and naivety.  

I hated Ned for what he put Jon Snow (who I didn't even like!) through. Okay, so your sister runs off with a powerful, married guy, has his kid, the birthing process kills her ('cause of course it does), and her dying request to you is to protect her baby, because the identity of his father puts his life in danger. What do you do?

Well, if you're a sensible person, just take the baby home, claim he's an orphaned foundling you took pity on, "adopt" him, and hopefully wifey and your other kids will be okay with this.

BUT IF YOU'RE NED "BRAIN TRUST" STARK, tell the world that the baby is the bastard son of your nonexistent mistress, which not only breaks your loving wife's heart, but causes a rift in your marriage that never fulls mends, mars your reputation, and burdens the kid with the stigma of being a bastard that he's forced to live with until adulthood. 

 

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19 minutes ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

Well, if you're a sensible person, just take the baby home, claim he's an orphaned foundling you took pity on, "adopt" him, and hopefully wifey and your other kids will be okay with this.

I think the problem for that, though, is it would have seemed out-of-character for Ned to be so concerned about this random orphan and Jon actually looked a lot like Ned, so it naturally makes people assume there is more of a connection than just "pitiful orphan."

Also culturally, it just didn't seem like it would be a thing in Westeros for a lord to take that sort of an interest in a peasant orphan. 

In that sense, it actually was smarter to just get ahead of the gossip and acknowledge a personal connection rather than having everyone in Winterfell make some deductions. As is, people already wondered why he took his bastard in. I can't even imagine how much taking in a "random orphan" would confound them and how much more angry Catelyn would have been about a peasant orphan being raised as almost as good as the lords' children. 

And I assume Jon's birth was too far past Brandon's death for Ned to just conveniently claim his brother was the father. 

In many things, Ned was too dumb to live, but I actually thought he did the best he could with the situation with Jon, especially since Ned himself was not naturally conniving.

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20 minutes ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

Oh......don't get me started on the starks and their stupidity.  

Ned especially.  Deserved to die based on his actions and naivety.  

Plus if he had followed through and just killed the 'queen of dragons' way back in season one like robert told him too, she never burns down kings landing.  Sure we lose her story, but kings landing may still (fictionally) exist.  Idiot.  Those plays of him running around like a dimwitted don't weren't far off

Yes, because Ned was supposed to foretell that Dany would somehow resurrect a species that had been extinct for over a century. Besides, Robert was clearly not listening to Ned, as he had spies that were trying to kill Dany and Viserys, like when the wine merchant tried to poison Dany.  We also know that Varys was tipping Dany's handlers off so it probably wouldn't work. 

My unpopular opinion is that people are too hard on Ned's naivety. He was naive; he spent his entire life in a culture where everyone was more straightforward. Then every victim should be held responsible if asshole trick them. The thing Ned should be faulted for is not packing up his shit and breaking the marriage contract when Robert allowed Sansa's wolf to be killed, especially when he saw that the butcher's son was killed all so Joffrey could save face. If Dany burned down King's Landing if Robert was still alive, that would be Robert's problem, not Ned's. 

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39 minutes ago, Zella said:

Oh God mine too! I found Tyrion pretty overrated, to be honest, but I enjoyed the shit out of the rest of the family. They were awful, but they were also relentlessly entertaining. 

I didn't care for Ramsay Bolton, but I loved watching Roose too. I would have watched a whole show that was basically him just being a dick to people at dinner. LOL You never know what you're going to get when you eat with Roose. A knife in the back or just some thinly veiled insults? Stay tuned! 

Plus that voice! To me he had the best voice in the entire cast. I was so upset when he died just for that reason. Lol.

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I liked Ned, but he was definitely too stupid to live. As soon as he landed in king’s landing he started antagonising everyone and making enemies. You don’t have to like these people, but you could shut up and not let these people know what you think Ned! He wasn’t there as a soldier, but as king’s employee and more importantly he had his two young daughters with him. It’s not like he was new and didn’t understand what kind of people they were. He did and yet went and put himself and his daughters in danger because “honour”. 
 

Only Sansa could have survived there because she know when to shut up and say what they needed to hear.

 

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23 minutes ago, JimmyJabloon said:

Plus that voice! To me he had the best voice in the entire cast. I was so upset when he died just for that reason. Lol.

YES! I ended up watching a ton of Michael McElhatton stuff because of his Roose Bolton, and he always has the kickass voice. And he's good in everything, even if the rest of the production is awful. 

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1 hour ago, Ambrosefolly said:

Yes, because Ned was supposed to foretell that Dany would somehow resurrect a species that had been extinct for over a century. Besides, Robert was clearly not listening to Ned, as he had spies that were trying to kill Dany and Viserys, like when the wine merchant tried to poison Dany.  We also know that Varys was tipping Dany's handlers off so it probably wouldn't work. 

My unpopular opinion is that people are too hard on Ned's naivety. He was naive; he spent his entire life in a culture where everyone was more straightforward. Then every victim should be held responsible if asshole trick them. The thing Ned should be faulted for is not packing up his shit and breaking the marriage contract when Robert allowed Sansa's wolf to be killed, especially when he saw that the butcher's son was killed all so Joffrey could save face. If Dany burned down King's Landing if Robert was still alive, that would be Robert's problem, not Ned's. 

Robert wasn't listening to ned.  But if ned had listened to Robert, they would not have had to sneak around try to kill her.  Just send an army over and take her out. Before she had dragons or anything.  

 

And I dont think the world we see is that different from what ned grew up with. Those families and people had been acting this way for centuries.  That's why the families and areas each had their own sayings and culture and ways of doing things.  None of it was a mystery or surprise based on past actions and wars  in westeros.  

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20 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

Regarding Game of Thrones, most of the problems arise from the showrunners rushing to a conclusion without adequately building the narrative.

That's my unpopular opinion part: I don't think they rushed to a conclusion without adequately building the narrative as far as Dany was concerned.  I found plenty of evidence of her eventual descent into madness in the story from very early on.

7 hours ago, Llywela said:

I think a lot of the trouble was that the show always portrayed Dany as a heroic, messianic figure even when she was committing terrible atrocities, and TV viewers are a bit too used to following those cues in order to understand which characters to root for and which to root against, instead of exercising their own judgement.

I disagree with this assessment.  The show portrayed her as THINKING she was a heroic, messianic figure when a lot of her words and actions said otherwise.

7 hours ago, Llywela said:

Dany's story arc is really rich and complex, but the portrayal of it was flawed, imo, and let down by the weakness of the writing in later seasons especially.

I think the writing for her was fine, even in the later seasons.

1 hour ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

Plus if he had followed through and just killed the 'queen of dragons' way back in season one like robert told him too, she never burns down kings landing.  Sure we lose her story, but kings landing may still (fictionally) exist.  Idiot. 

So I guess Ned was supposed to have 20/20 hindsight?  Look, I agree that he was naive and didn't understand the sort of games he was getting himself into with the Lannisters, and made all kinds of mistakes that someone more politically savvy wouldn't have made.  It's a bit much, however, to blame him for the torching of Kings Landing.  He had no way of knowing that Dany would turn out to be as mad as her father because he couldn't see what she was doing and hear what she was saying from the other side of the Narrow Sea.

59 minutes ago, JimmyJabloon said:

Plus that voice! To me he had the best voice in the entire cast. I was so upset when he died just for that reason. Lol.

Oh god, yes, that voice!  I loved Roose just for his voice.

 

45 minutes ago, JimmyJabloon said:

I liked Ned, but he was definitely too stupid to live. As soon as he landed in king’s landing he started antagonising everyone and making enemies. You don’t have to like these people, but you could shut up and not let these people know what you think Ned! He wasn’t there as a soldier, but as king’s employee and more importantly he had his two young daughters with him. It’s not like he was new and didn’t understand what kind of people they were. He did and yet went and put himself and his daughters in danger because “honour”. 
 

Only Sansa could have survived there because she know when to shut up and say what they needed to hear.

 

I don't think he was stupid.  He just wasn't equipped to perform the role Robert coerced him into accepting.  That was the only really stupid thing he did; he should have stuck to "no, I will not be Hand of the King, sorry".

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Bastards were also kind of culturally acceptable, with specific names; 'snow', etc., so Ned going off and taking a mistress who had his bastard son wasn't really a out there act. 

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1 hour ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

Robert wasn't listening to ned.  But if ned had listened to Robert, they would not have had to sneak around try to kill her.  Just send an army over and take her out. Before she had dragons or anything.  

No way for anyone to know she would have dragons. Even her family had tried unsuccessfully to bring them back. If killing Dany was so important to Robert, he should have bought a Faceless man for the job. Robert didn't have to sneak around Ned's back, he was the king that won his position through warfare. If Ned wasn't on board, he could have made peace with Stannis who totally wanted to kill her too.

I fault Ned not for his nativity but when he betrayed his own virtues when he didn't leave after Cersei requested Sansa's wolf killed and had a servant's child murdered. Robert okayed all of that to happen.

Edited by Ambrosefolly
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Really unpopular GoT opinion here. I didn't give a flying fuck about any of the nonhuman characters. Dragons, wolves, whatever. Didn't care when any of them died. They were just plot devices. 

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 I freely admit of holding the popular opinion that I like the Starks and really thought the Dany ending was out of nowhere. My UO is that the sexiest actor on that show was Stephen Dillane aka Stannis Baratheon.

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4 hours ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

I hated Ned for what he put Jon Snow (who I didn't even like!) through. Okay, so your sister runs off with a powerful, married guy, has his kid, the birthing process kills her ('cause of course it does), and her dying request to you is to protect her baby, because the identity of his father puts his life in danger. What do you do?

Well, if you're a sensible person, just take the baby home, claim he's an orphaned foundling you took pity on, "adopt" him, and hopefully wifey and your other kids will be okay with this.

BUT IF YOU'RE NED "BRAIN TRUST" STARK, tell the world that the baby is the bastard son of your nonexistent mistress, which not only breaks your loving wife's heart, but causes a rift in your marriage that never fulls mends, mars your reputation, and burdens the kid with the stigma of being a bastard that he's forced to live with until adulthood. 

 

tenor-1.gif

Yeah, if he was going to go with the illegitimate child cover, the LEAST he could have done was let Cat in on the truth. She was only his damn wife, he was too trusting of others *cough cough Littlefinger* but he couldn’t trust his WIFE with one secret?! 

I was indifferent with the Starks until the final season in which I hated them. But in fairness I hated nearly everybody that season.

Not gonna open up the Dany discourse again — I’ve said all I wanted to say about it countless times and I’m gonna die on that hill — but the one thing I can’t forgive is Tyrion turning into a spineless that was suddenly concerned about saving Cersei after EVERYTHING she’s done. Pretty sure Cersei was beyond saving about two seasons back when she BLEW UP THE SEPTON and it was even MORE OBVIOUS when she pretended to agree to a temporary truce only to doublecross you AGAIN. 🙄🙄🙄🙄

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5 hours ago, Zella said:

I think the problem for that, though, is it would have seemed out-of-character for Ned to be so concerned about this random orphan and Jon actually looked a lot like Ned, so it naturally makes people assume there is more of a connection than just "pitiful orphan."

Also culturally, it just didn't seem like it would be a thing in Westeros for a lord to take that sort of an interest in a peasant orphan. 

In that sense, it actually was smarter to just get ahead of the gossip and acknowledge a personal connection rather than having everyone in Winterfell make some deductions. As is, people already wondered why he took his bastard in. I can't even imagine how much taking in a "random orphan" would confound them and how much more angry Catelyn would have been about a peasant orphan being raised as almost as good as the lords' children. 

And I assume Jon's birth was too far past Brandon's death for Ned to just conveniently claim his brother was the father. 

In many things, Ned was too dumb to live, but I actually thought he did the best he could with the situation with Jon, especially since Ned himself was not naturally conniving.

Good point, fair enough. 

 

1 hour ago, Spartan Girl said:

Yeah, if he was going to go with the illegitimate child cover, the LEAST he could have done was let Cat in on the truth. She was only his damn wife, he was too trusting of others *cough cough Littlefinger* but he couldn’t trust his WIFE with one secret?! 

Oooh, also a good point. Then at least their marriage would have been okay and Cat, y'know, wouldn't have gone to her grave hating Jon Snow... at least not for that reason.

 

I'm sorry! I don't like Jon Snow!

Ahem.

 

Anyway, back to the original point...

 

However wrong I was or how dumb my viewpoint, I will unapologetically maintain that Ned Stark was a ninny-muggins of the highest order. Come to think of it, none of the GoT characters had two brain cells to smash together by the time the show ended.

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I ended up finding Cat a really interesting character and tended to find Jon boring as hell, but I don't think she ever would have liked him. If he wasn't a bastard and was instead a nephew whose very existence would have pissed off the king, I think she still would have hated him and treated him like shit. He's even more of a threat as who he really is than he was as Jon Snow. If I were Ned, I wouldn't have trusted her with that secret, either. I think she would have gladly sacrificed Jon for the safety of her own family (and probably gotten them all killed in the process.) She was super impulsive when it came to anything about her kids. 

Edited by Zella
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5 minutes ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

I'm sorry! I don't like Jon Snow!

Ahem.

An UO I’m more than happy to share!

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