S02.E14: Wrath Of The Villains: This Ball Of Mud And Meanness

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Alfred and Selina help Bruce on his quest to find his parents' killer, Matches Malone. Meanwhile, Gordon follows up with Edward Nygma on Kristen Kringle's whereabouts and Hugo Strange continues his treatment to reduce Penguin's aggression.

 

 

[Primetimer]

Lori Petty acts normal (well...normal for Lori Petty), but she's got a look that seems pretty familiar.

Read the story

[MrsRafaelBarba]

Hi Lori Petty, where you been girl?

[Lantern7]

I should have known Bruce wouldn't kill Matches. Nicely-done scene, even if you keep expecting bats to circle the two of them. Now . . . Bruce living on the streets with Selina? That's unexpected. I don't think Alfred will sit idly by and let his charge potentially get killed.

 

Anybody else want to look at Oswald's certificate for references to him not having donkey brains? His "sanity" isn't going to last long, especially since Hugo has him on his list.

 

Ugh  . . . heavy anvil with Ed. I know some characters have to reach their canon potential, but the question mark was a bit much.

[SoSueMe]

Ha!!!

 

Was that fricken' Pee Wee Herman in the preview, lol???

[Biggie B]

Was that fricken' Pee Wee Herman in the preview, lol???

 

Indeed it was! Ha! Well, since his character was killed off "The Blacklist," he's got time on his hands...

[Miss Dee]

Well I loved it. I'm pretty much in this for the Baby Bat story, and I thought David Masouz knocked it out of the park. I loved the ending when the music swelled, and Selina and Bruce were shot from the back walking towards the city scape. It felt iconic although I'm not sure I've sussed out why yet.

Does anyone know what lessons Alfred was trying to impart while fighting Cupcake? I so badly wanted to know what he was saying but I couldn't pick it out over the ambient noise! I'd really like to see Cupcake again.

I (unlike the PTL reviewer) have not seen Tank Girl but I might have to if Lori Petty is pretty much like this in it. I really enjoyed her, and I loved her Joker makeup.

Edited March 15, 2016 by Miss Dee

[Chaos Theory]

I so want Lori Petty to be Joker. I will forgive the show everything if Lori Petty is Joker.

As for the rest:

There was a time the meer hint of a murder would have Jim Gordon arresting every politician in town. Now he can barely look at a file. How the mighty have fallen.

Fight Club!!!! Alfred fighting while managing to put in a lesson for Bruce was awesome. Plus Bruce going rogue and investigating on his own and not killing the guy who probably killed his parents. Add to that his first run away adventure. Bruce is on his path to becoming Batman.

Edited March 15, 2016 by Chaos Theory

[nilyank]

Bruce taking another step towards becoming Batman is totally awesome.

 

My BatCat shippers heart is thrilled that they are going to spending the next adventure together, living together on the streets as she help guide him in the underworld belly of Gotham.

 

Ed and his paranoia overreactions is how he got into killing people in the first place. Jim couldn't be less interested or worried that Kringle is missing.

[HalcyonDays]

All I've got to say, is that if the casting department wanted to get an actress/actor who would SOOOOO fit into the world of Gotham - Lori Petty is that person. She was awesome. And loved that they gave her makeup that was echoing The Joker.

 

Bruce is once again an idiot, but he's a teen - he's learning. This arc with him living with Selena on the streets, actually reminds me of Batman Begins, when Bruce Wayne was in that prison and the harsh existance, and basically learned some valuable skills to be Batman. But I will say that his impulsiveness needs to be tempered somehow - because right now, it's caustic and just plain stupid.

 

Oh Penguin - why is it that I HOPE that you relapse, and basically nail Dr. Strange to the wall in retaliation...

 

Sad that Jim and Leigh's relationship is so cold - echos Barbara and Jim.

 

Oh man, what hell is Nygma gonna unleash???

[Jediknight]

Does anyone know what lessons Alfred was trying to impart while fighting Cupcake? I so badly wanted to know what he was saying but I couldn't pick it out over the ambient noise! I'd really like to see Cupcake again.

He was teaching him to fight smart.  He told Bruce that someone the size of Cupcake needs a lot of blood to keep going, and all you've got to do it out last them.  Let the bigger guy get tired, protect yourself, and then go in for the offense, because they won't be able to defend it that well.

 

We got the Mutants which I wasn't expecting.  Thankfully they didn't have Bruce kill Matches, and there's still the mystery of who ordered the hit on the Waynes.

[VCRTracking]

I thought David Mazouz did a great job this episode as did the actor playing "Matches Malone".

 

When I saw Lori Petty's name in the credits I thought "Whoa, Tank Girl!" I was surprised by her charcter's Joker-esque look. Don't know that means.

 

Wondering what Hugo Strange's plans for Oswald are. Is it a "Manchurian Candidate" brainwash situation?

[Jediknight]

When I saw Lori Petty's name in the credits I thought "Whoa, Tank Girl!" I was surprised by her charcter's Joker-esque look. Don't know that means.

They're just keeping it like the comics.  We're getting people who have some tie to Joker, who might actually be Joker, but you don't know if they are Joker.  Joker's origins are never fully explained, because even he doesn't remember how he came to be Joker.

[MrsRafaelBarba]

I thought David Mazouz did a great job this episode as did the actor playing "Matches Malone".

Michael Bowen.

[darkestboy]

Best episode of the season.

 

It might have been predictable that Bruce wouldn't kill Matches but the scenes between the two of them were genuinely great to watch. The end scene with him living with Selina was an interesting twist too.

 

Alfred vs. Cupcake was pretty amusing too to be honest, especially for Bullock's later commentary on the hospital.

 

While I don't want them to gender swap the Joker, Jeri was an excellent possible candidate. Her look was a Joker/Harley mash up and she was fantastic in her scenes with Bruce and Gordon. I really want to see her again.

 

Nygma's losing the plot in the same episode where Oswald got declared sane by Hugo Strange of all people. The end moment was very on point, 9/10

[mtlchick]

Hi Lori Petty, where you been girl?

 

All of this.  Definitely underrated and was thrilled that she played it slightly off kilter. 

 

 

He was teaching him to fight smart.  He told Bruce that someone the size of Cupcake needs a lot of blood to keep going, and all you've got to do it out last them.  Let the bigger guy get tired, protect yourself, and then go in for the offense, because they won't be able to defend it that well.

 

He forgot to add "Try to avoid overexerting yourself too much" if that faint at the end was any indication.  I'm surprised he didn't smash his nose. At least we know which Alfred of the TV/movie universe can survive an underground fight club.

 

I guess this is the point where Bruce feels that killing someone is never going to bring his parents back but learning about the true underbelly of Gotham is going to lead him to his destined path? 

[Delphi]

I loved Lori. She's amazing.

David is a fantastic actor. And he's growing up so fast.

I enjoyed this episode a lot. Bruce's journey into becoming Batman is so much more interesting to me than Jim and his story. I don't find Jim easy to root for. In season one he was to clean, now he's morally bankrupt, neither are fun to watch when you consider the fact that he's supposed to be noble, but willing to bend the law to help people. Bruce was completely right to tell him that his word wasn't reassuring.

I wish Selina would get more to do though.

[Philbert]

 

Best episode of the season.

 

 

Easily, and in fact probably my favorite of the series so far. No, we didn't get any awesome type shoot outs or really over the top Villain-y moments (well except for poor Ed) but I really love the fact that the writers took a couple of deep breaths, settled down and produced a really fantastic scene of two people in a room talking-and making it riveting television. As others have pointed out, this is often where "Gotham" falls down. Not this episode. Sure we could have used more Bullock but he at least had a few good moments near the end. I like the fact that they still have doubts about who killed the Wayne's and Harvey is back to his old S1 "Who the Hell cares?" stance. I also enjoyed the Penguin storyline (as I usually do) and am interested to see where its going to go. Great episode.

[Maximum Taco]

Hi Lori Petty, where you been girl?

 

In Prison. (Orange is the New Black)

 

Glad she got out to be a Proto-Joker though.

[Traveller519]

Felt a touch rushed, to push all the Matches stuff through in a single episode, while also having Penguin get out of Arkham only two episodes after he went in, and the Eddie stuff.

 

Bruce finally seemed to gather some depth, which was nice. Hopefully the upcoming interactions between him and Selina are better than they've been in the past. I always felt like both characters (and actors) dropped off significantly when acting against one another.

[Maximum Taco]

Seems like this Edward Nygma is becoming the Arkham Asylum video game version of the Riddler, who really thinks he's doing heinous terrible things that the authorities care about, but really nobody cares.

 

Riddler: You'll never solve my riddles Dark Knight!

Batman: Will you leave me alone Ed?! The Joker is threatening to blow up the entire city. I'll handle your dumb riddles later!

Riddler: Ah! So you admit I am smarter then you. You are far too feeble minded to contend with my villainous genius!

Batman: Oh you're probably right. See ya round Ed!

 

Nygma: You'll never bring me in for the two or three murders I committed Gordon!

Gordon: Will you leave me alone Ed? I've got a billionaire kid with a death wish and a club filled with anarchic killer clowns in the making to deal with! I'll handle your dumb riddles later!

Nygma: I'm a million steps ahead of you Gordon! You are far too feeble minded to contend with my villainous genius!

Gordon: Oh you're probably right. See ya round Ed!

Edited March 15, 2016 by Maximum Taco

[Danielg342]

Even though it was incredibly predictable- right down to Matches telling Bruce "if you kill me you'll become me"- the scene between Matches Malone and Bruce Wayne turned into the scene of the season, if not the scene of the entire series thus far. Everything from the acting to the direction to the writing was just right, emphasizing just how important that moment was for Bruce in his ascent into Batman.

 

There's not much more to say about the episode other than that- it was a clear buildup to that moment, and it didn't disappoint. Having said that, I did dig the fight between Alfred and Cupcake- especially Alfred giving Bruce pointers as he was fighting Cupcake- and Lori Petty absolutely rocked (literally) as the proto-Joker Jeri. I certainly want to see her again. I also liked how Bruce manipulated her into spilling the beans about Matches- looks like Bruce has "the gambit" down pat.

 

As for the other guy rocking it- isn't Hugo Strange just delightful? I still hope Penguin and Strange learn to become allies, because they play very well together- especially considering that Strange really does help Penguin tone down his jumpiness.

 

Last, but not least, is Nygma's storyline. Pretty pedestrian without many twists

but I'm guessing it's all just a set up for next week.

 

The Bullock Meter

 

3- I mean, Harvey Bullock was there. He had two scenes, he had his scowl...but he didn't do much. The one-liners with Alfred fell kind of flat, and the other scene where he was talking to Jim about Matches, was paint-by-the-numbers. I'm hoping this is just a one-off and next week he'll get a greater spotlight

considering he'll be chasing Nygma as well.

 

Episode Grade- B. A little pacey with quite a few scenes obviously there as set up for the future, but it was still a captivating hour.

[MarkHB]

Parts of this seemed taken directly from the first two parts of The Dark Knight Returns: the Mutantz and their giant leader, the nightclub (which isn't in the book but fit that world to a T); I love the book and I loved seeing it here.  Lori Petty was awesome; I never saw Tank Girl or OITNB so, in all honesty, I still think of her mainly as the cellist from Fame.

[thuganomics85]

Gold star to the guest casting on this one.  Lori Petty was a blast in her role (and totally working a Joker-ish look), and Michael Bowen was perfect as Matches.  Of course the guy who terrorized Jessie in the final season of Breaking Bad would end up being the guy who killed Bruce's parents!
 

Definitely an episode where Jim and the cops took a backseat, and it was really more about Bruce and his journey to finding Matches.  I obviously figured he wouldn't kill them; this show may change a lot of things from canon, but I can't see them changing that aspect of Bruce; but I enjoyed his hunt, and realization that he couldn't pull the trigger.  David Mazouz was pretty good here.  And now Bruce is apparently going to live on the streets with Selina for a bit.  Could be a nice change.  Especially if this causes him to bump into other characters that he normally wouldn't (like, say, Oswald.)

 

Speaking of Oswald, he's already deemed "sane" by Hugo Strange, and back out onto the streets.  Either he's really that good a playing Strange, or he really has been "cured", but something will snap him out of it at the end.  Then again, I suspect Dr. Strange has his own motives for putting Oswald back out there.

 

Ed takes another step into becoming The Riddler, by thinking Jim is onto him about Kringle and assuming the worse.  I so can't wait for Jim and Bullock to figure it out and be like "Actually... we never even suspected you, buddy."

 

Alfred continues to show why he is probably the toughest butler out there.

[Snookums]

I thought David Mazouz did a great job this episode as did the actor playing "Matches Malone".

 

 

All the guest stars just knocked it out of the park this week--Cupcake, Jeri, Matches. All old timers, been 'round the scene since they were younger than little Brucie, back when they were just making that first mistake or two that didn't seem like it was a big deal, that shouldn't have been a big deal, but somehow their whole lives got a little bent, a little twisted, and now they're forty, fifty, sixty and still bossing around punk kids, still dressing like they did and going to the same clubs as when they were fifteen, still taking job after job and waiting for somebody to stop them and no one ever does.

 

All of them looked at Bruce, with his new height and terrified eyes and a gun he can barely lift, and it's funny. It is, how fresh and unused he is; how he really doesn't know what he's asking for, what he's getting into. How he's going to change. And you kinda do want to warn him--that it takes so much less to be changed then you think it does. And it always is something that shows up and presents itself as a logical course of action after a big, life-splitting event, not the event itself.

 

But he's not going to listen. So yeah, go to Jeri, go to this building that looks like a wedding cake mated with a funeral home, confront the tired old guy that's been doing this so long his memory just went "whateves" twenty years ago. You might as well, kid. 

 

Malone's weariness, his relief that finally there was going to be a reckoning, that it wasn't all just random chaos in an empty universe, is what changed Bruce into Batman. It wasn't the death that was important, it was that finally, after decades and decades of nobody giving a fiddler's damn, somebody showed up and demanded an accounting, thank you God. That's Batman's mission--to steal order out of chaos, to kill murder by starving it of its meat. 

 

My, that was heavy! Lighter fare!

 

Harvey got shit-all to do this week but Donal Logue made the most of it; "Again, we're the police! Don't tell us stuff like this!" Lee's been relegated to plot prodding this week, but she had a lot to do last episode so that's okay. Ed's guilt spilling itself in fearing to be split is getting a little Red Bulled out--DUDE, you're standing in the middle of GCPD! Even with this crowd maybe not so much with the paranoid ranting where everybody can hear you? 

 

And Penguin, widdle Penguin. I honestly can't tell if he's playing a long con, is truly (if temporarily) patched up, or if it's a "little column A, little column B" situation. BD Wong still just hitting homers in scene after scene, all "I'm Hugo Strange, bitches!"  When he was therapizing Penguin with images of his mother being murdered? And said to Ms. Peabody "we'll try some negative stimuli?" That wasn't the negative stimuli?!? Even Peabody's all "You are one fucked up little troll person and don't tell me details" by the end of the show.

[driedfruit]

Watching that long scene between Bruce and Matches made me appreciate the show in a way I hadn't before. Gotham doesn't get a enough credit imo and some unfair contempt for being a Batman show without the Bat, but I think it's going to age well. Possibly much better than the other cable superhero shows. It's amazing that their main weak link is Gordon, because he's actually interesting and intensely likeable in the comics. If they can get him right... 

[Traveller519]

I do love the thought that when Thomas Wayne was looking for a Butler, he took a look at Gotham and said, "Yeah, I'm going to need someone who is ex special forces."

[Snookums]

The man thought ahead. Not so much in the area of "not leaving a theater by back alley," though.

[Gulftastic]

  Lori Petty was awesome; I never saw Tank Girl or OITNB so, in all honesty, I still think of her mainly as the cellist from Fame.

 

 

Lori Singer in Fame.

[LilWharveyGal]

To me she'll always be Dottie's sister.

[MarkHB]

Lori Singer in Fame.

 

Crap, you're right! My bad. This Lori was Geena Davis's little sister in A League of their Own.

[Perfect Xero]

One thing that has struck me about his show is that it's almost two different shows, you have the one show with Gordon, Penguin, and the GCPD cases. Then you have the other show with Bruce, Alfred, and the becoming Batman story. Sometimes they crossover a bit, like Gordon trying to find Bruce before he could kill or be killed tonight, but for the most part the two are kept separate. The Bruce show gets less focus (which it probably benefits from), but it's also the more compelling aspect of the show.

[Danielg342]

Well, DC has trademarked Pennyworth for a future TV series, so we'll see how that goes.

[Kathemy]

Forgot to post my review.

http://www.douxreviews.com/2016/03/gotham-this-ball-of-mud-and-meanness.html

It says a lot about an episode when everyone who tries to complain about it ends up looking ridiculous.

10/10

[driedfruit]

One thing that has struck me about his show is that it's almost two different shows, you have the one show with Gordon, Penguin, and the GCPD cases. Then you have the other show with Bruce, Alfred, and the becoming Batman story. Sometimes they crossover a bit, like Gordon trying to find Bruce before he could kill or be killed tonight, but for the most part the two are kept separate. The Bruce show gets less focus (which it probably benefits from), but it's also the more compelling aspect of the show.

 

The parallel of Gordon's GCPD storyline with Bruce's origins as Bats is similar to Batman Year One, which is a great thing to emulate.  I think overall the ensemble aspect of the show works rather well, the villain arcs weave into the big main plot, which is a problem for a lot of other monster-of-the-week format shows. I expect, when Bruce gets older and will be believably capable of getting involved in the physical action, the focus is going to shift more to him. David is a very talented kid and I'm looking forward to that. 

Edited March 17, 2016 by driedfruit

[Philbert]

 

I never saw Tank Girl

 

For which you should be eternally grateful.

[Traveller519]

Well, DC has trademarked Pennyworth for a future TV series, so we'll see how that goes.

Ah, the Prequel to Gotham: How Alfred made his way to Gotham, and how a bunch of Batman's rogues gallery was there through the whole thing.

[Kathemy]

Ah, the Prequel to Gotham: How Alfred made his way to Gotham, and how a bunch of Batman's rogues gallery was there through the whole thing.

It must be easy to bash a show when there is literally zero information about it apart from its name, so you can just make up anything you want to whine about.

Edited March 18, 2016 by Telepath

[Delphi]

Well, we're all here to share opinions. So there's really no need to be rude about it.

[Traveller519]

It must be easy to bash a show when there is literally zero information about it apart from its name, so you can just make up anything you want to whine about.

I was joking about about how Gotham couldn't resist the temptation to flood the show with Batman enemies, despite being billed as a James Gordon crime drama. That doesn't man it's not enjoyable, which my other posts through the episode threads will show. I love turning off the lights, turning up the sounds and getting immersed.

 

For the official record, I think a limited series show on Alfred's past, up to meeting Thomas Wayne could be a compelling character piece. Like what the first run of Agent Carter was. If I were to bash the show, my criticism would be much more outright.

[Danielg342]

They could even do an arc on this show where Gordon and Bullock have to look into Alfred's past to solve a crime in the present. It would be a great excuse to have some excellent flashbacks.

[Kathemy]

I was joking about about how Gotham couldn't resist the temptation to flood the show with Batman enemies, despite being billed as a James Gordon crime drama. That doesn't man it's not enjoyable, which my other posts through the episode threads will show. I love turning off the lights, turning up the sounds and getting immersed.

 

For the official record, I think a limited series show on Alfred's past, up to meeting Thomas Wayne could be a compelling character piece. Like what the first run of Agent Carter was. If I were to bash the show, my criticism would be much more outright.

Then I misunderstood the tone. Apologies.

 

And I think that a six-parter miniseries or so could be nice. It's not something I'd assume to have the legs for a long run. All-in-all it's positive that there are talks about it, because that must mean they consider the Gotham platform quite commercially viable, and that's really good news for the show's future.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Add to the list of dumb things Bruce did this episode: left a gun with his fingerprints in a known murderer's apartment.

[Danielg342]

Add to the list of dumb things Bruce did this episode: left a gun with his fingerprints in a known murderer's apartment.

 

True, but I don't think they'll indict him or even investigate him. First of all, if Bruce's gun was the one Matches used to off himself, his fingerprints will be on it too. Furthermore, even if Matches used a different gun, ballistics would prove Bruce didn't fire the weapon.

 

Plus all the exhortations of him "being a kid" will mean that- for now anyway- no one would believe he'd be capable of murder.

[SoSueMe]

All the guest stars just knocked it out of the park this week--Cupcake, Jeri, Matches. All old timers, been 'round the scene since they were younger than little Brucie, back when they were just making that first mistake or two that didn't seem like it was a big deal, that shouldn't have been a big deal, but somehow their whole lives got a little bent, a little twisted, and now they're forty, fifty, sixty and still bossing around punk kids, still dressing like they did and going to the same clubs as when they were fifteen, still taking job after job and waiting for somebody to stop them and no one ever does.

 

All of them looked at Bruce, with his new height and terrified eyes and a gun he can barely lift, and it's funny. It is, how fresh and unused he is; how he really doesn't know what he's asking for, what he's getting into. How he's going to change. And you kinda do want to warn him--that it takes so much less to be changed then you think it does. And it always is something that shows up and presents itself as a logical course of action after a big, life-splitting event, not the event itself.

 

But he's not going to listen. So yeah, go to Jeri, go to this building that looks like a wedding cake mated with a funeral home, confront the tired old guy that's been doing this so long his memory just went "whateves" twenty years ago. You might as well, kid. 

 

Malone's weariness, his relief that finally there was going to be a reckoning, that it wasn't all just random chaos in an empty universe, is what changed Bruce into Batman. It wasn't the death that was important, it was that finally, after decades and decades of nobody giving a fiddler's damn, somebody showed up and demanded an accounting, thank you God. That's Batman's mission--to steal order out of chaos, to kill murder by starving it of its meat. 

 

My, that was heavy! Lighter fare!

 

Harvey got shit-all to do this week but Donal Logue made the most of it; "Again, we're the police! Don't tell us stuff like this!" Lee's been relegated to plot prodding this week, but she had a lot to do last episode so that's okay. Ed's guilt spilling itself in fearing to be split is getting a little Red Bulled out--DUDE, you're standing in the middle of GCPD! Even with this crowd maybe not so much with the paranoid ranting where everybody can hear you? 

 

And Penguin, widdle Penguin. I honestly can't tell if he's playing a long con, is truly (if temporarily) patched up, or if it's a "little column A, little column B" situation. BD Wong still just hitting homers in scene after scene, all "I'm Hugo Strange, bitches!"  When he was therapizing Penguin with images of his mother being murdered? And said to Ms. Peabody "we'll try some negative stimuli?" That wasn't the negative stimuli?!? Even Peabody's all "You are one fucked up little troll person and don't tell me details" by the end of the show.

I enjoyed your analysis almost as much as the episode! Well done!

[Kathemy]

*shrug*

Edited March 20, 2016 by Telepath

[paigow]

Legal and temporal constraints notwithstanding, the Jarvis & Alfred show - where they complain about babysitting their eccentric bosses and exchange witticisms - needs to be developed.

[HoodlumSheep]

David M. Did great this episode. Loved the bruce/matches scenes.

I'm with Jeri (was that the name?) concerning Jim. All his fire is gone. He's in a perpetual state of angriness nowadays, he's not invested in cases as much any more. Season 1 Jim would have been all over the Kris Kringle case, but now he doesn't think twice about it.

And it's hard to believe the "paternal instincts" line currently, because Jim stopped digging into the Wayne case a long time ago, and now only seems involved with Bruce and Alfred when they actually request his help or somehow end up thrown together in a situation (like the recent fall finale). They don't really interact much anymore.

Edited March 21, 2016 by HoodlumSheep

[AAEBoiler]

All in all, this was a good episode. However, it seems like it would've been a good "end of season" episode with Selina leading Bruce out to live on the streets. It could've been paired with the following week's happenings with Jim Gordon. Oh well, I guess I'll have faith and see what happens with the rest of the season. I'm sure they'll leave us hanging.

[Camera One]

It was nice to see Bruce in the spotlight, though his actions were completely reckless and stupid.  But the scene with Matches was very good.  I look forward to seeing how Bruce eventually becomes Batman.  Sadly, the police stuff with Gordon is tiresome, and his character has no consistent journey anymore.  Which leaves us with the Villains show, and that gets boring week after week.  I didn't like how Ed is going off the deep end about Gordon.  It's not like Jim mistreats him... should've been more gradual.